COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Magus420]

Should be anyway. The reductions on each slot are halved (in 3 different ways), and the fresh bonus of +0.05 is the same.

 

[kupo15]

ahh i c. No wonder things felt weird. Idk what we would do without you Magus! Now the question is, do we round up or down....

 

[Dan_X]

Heh wow. So complicated, thank God you guys are good with math, otherwise we'd get nowhere with this. If I was left to figure out any of this on my own-- well I wouldn't, let's put it that way.

 

[kupo15]

Wow excellent, two new codes...

**runs to test***

 

[cAm8ooo]

I wish i had my wiimote to test these. But i left it at a friends house and i cant get off the menu screen Good job on that one nintendo.

 

[kupo15]

I wish i had my wiimote to test these. But i left it at a friends house and i cant get off the menu screen Good job on that one nintendo.

facepalm nintendo

Analysis of code lines thus far

ASL 45 lines
lagless ledges 51 lines
Auto l canceling 32 lines
Dash canceling 27 lines
__SubTotal__
155 lines

155 lines
-21 lines (7 shared lines x3)
__Total___

134 lines

________________________________________

MAD 88 lines
Hit stun 33 lines

__Sub total___
121 lines

117 lines
-4 lines (4 shared lines x1)

__TOTAL___
113 lines

_________________________________________
_________________________________________

New code lengths


ASL 45 lines
lagless ledges 44 lines
Auto l canceling 25 lines
Dash canceling 20 lines

(plus 7 lines)

_____________________________________________

MAD 84 lines
Hit stun 29 lines

(plus 4 lines)

So taking this into effect, with my code set:

no trip
inf replay
hitstun
ALC
no ASL
lagless ledges
Custom decay

I have 165 lines filled and 91 lines remaining

 

[Shadic]

No auto-sweet spotting? It's tempting to try, but I kinda like what in Brawl already.

And this code doesn't remove the ability to ledgegrab while facing the opposite direction, does it?

 

[Deleted member]

Content removed to lighten my internet footprint.

 

[kupo15]

No auto-sweet spotting? It's tempting to try, but I kinda like what in Brawl already.

And this code doesn't remove the ability to ledgegrab while facing the opposite direction, does it?

No you can still reverse grab.

Some things I noticed was that those who can glide can glide through the ledges.

So characters can auto sweet spot if you up b at the right time. (try TL)

All side b's auto sweet spot

I'd rather have auto sweetspot but not backwards ledgegrab, but that's prob just me

Whats the point if you can reverse up b and auto sweet spot anyway?

 

[Finns7]

Thx for the code I thought he was done until the holiday.

 

[kupo15]

Thx for the code I thought he was done until the holiday.

It was a surprise for me too.

 

[Shell]

That looks really awesome. I'll go try those out later today.

Is there any way you could request dash dancing before all of the shield work? We've had a lot of debates about ground mobility, and since the current MAD won't likely make it into the final set (still hoping for a HAD), it'd be really nice to test dash dancing.

Even if you don't request it till later, could he possibly check out Wind Owl's suggestion and allow a dashed turnaround at any point in the dash (not just in the initial animation ala 64/melee).

 

[kupo15]

That looks really awesome. I'll go try those out later today.

Is there any way you could request dash dancing before all of the shield work? We've had a lot of debates about ground mobility, and since the current MAD won't likely make it into the final set (still hoping for a HAD), it'd be really nice to test dash dancing.

Even if you don't request it till later, could he possibly check out Wind Owl's suggestion and allow a dashed turnaround at any point in the dash (not just in the initial animation ala 64/melee).

ill request DDing to PW after the holidays. But spunit says he is currently working on shield stun but shield stun is really important over DDing atm IMO. We will get DDing soon I suspect. Im thinking Shields then DDing

 

[Dan_X]

So the No Auto Sweet Spotting doesn't work for Ness, Lucas, and Lucario? Is that a problem do you think? What does it mean that they are "write protected?" Does that mean there's no way to make it work for them?

 

[Archangel]

That looks really awesome. I'll go try those out later today.

Is there any way you could request dash dancing before all of the shield work? We've had a lot of debates about ground mobility, and since the current MAD won't likely make it into the final set (still hoping for a HAD), it'd be really nice to test dash dancing.

Even if you don't request it till later, could he possibly check out Wind Owl's suggestion and allow a dashed turnaround at any point in the dash (not just in the initial animation ala 64/melee).

I know exactly what you mean man. I played an old Melee rival today and It took me a few games to get warmed up because it's been awhile but once I got my C.Falcon going as well as my other characters I've decided that the movement is perfect. Brawl+ still needs dash dancing badly because without it good players are stuck making noob mistakes when they can't dash cancel so they dash forward and get hit with a silly attack. It's crazy.

Btw why don't we just start calling the game Melee plus? By the time we are done it will basically be Melee with new characters and stages.

 

[Shell]

Most of the stuff we've added isn't exclusive to melee.

In fact, other than modifying decay, all of the current unofficially standard codes are are things that were in 64, as well.

Calling it Melee+ would limit our potential to just focusing on Melee, as well as being a slap in the face to the people that adamantly support Brawl.

 

[kupo15]

Most of the stuff we've added isn't exclusive to melee.

In fact, other than modifying decay, all of the current unofficially standard codes are are things that were in 64, as well.

Calling it Melee+ would limit our potential to just focusing on Melee, as well as being a slap in the face to the people that adamantly support Brawl.

In fact, Brawls current decay system is how 64 worked except it is much more powerful. So by using say 1/2 power brawl decay system, it essential is making it closer to 64's decay system

 

[Revven]

So the No Auto Sweet Spotting doesn't work for Ness, Lucas, and Lucario? Is that a problem do you think? What does it mean that they are "write protected?" Does that mean there's no way to make it work for them?

It's intentional because they don't grab the ledge properly without the autosweetspot in place. This worked like this in Melee for Ness, he wouldn't go past the edge he would autosnap on if you aimed right. (Like it is in Brawl). Lucario NEEDS the autosnap due to how his Up B works, and as it is, it's a horrible recovery to begin with (no way to defend himself) so if he couldn't autosnap, then he'd be screwed greatly.

 

[kupo15]

It's intentional because they don't grab the ledge properly without the autosweetspot in place. This worked like this in Melee for Ness, he wouldn't go past the edge he would autosnap on if you aimed right. (Like it is in Brawl). Lucario NEEDS the autosnap due to how his Up B works, and as it is, it's a horrible recovery to begin with (no way to defend himself) so if he couldn't autosnap, then he'd be screwed greatly.

I think if you took away Auto sweet spot, lucario may not be able to up b to wall cling

 

[Dan_X]

It's intentional because they don't grab the ledge properly without the autosweetspot in place. This worked like this in Melee for Ness, he wouldn't go past the edge he would autosnap on if you aimed right. (Like it is in Brawl). Lucario NEEDS the autosnap due to how his Up B works, and as it is, it's a horrible recovery to begin with (no way to defend himself) so if he couldn't autosnap, then he'd be screwed greatly.

Alright, cool. I'm fine with that. I jus twasn't sure how it was supposed to work. I'm glad then, I'm glad that Ness, Lucario, and Lucas won't be negatively affected by this..

All we need now is a code that makes Ness Lucas and Diddy slide upwards during a recovery.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

i demand fresh videos

 

[Finns7]

I will later when my bro is done on the pc

 

[Dan_X]

i demand fresh videos

I 2nd this notion!

 

[El Raspa]

well, is there some "pack" recomended with all the values?

 

[Dan_X]

well, is there some "pack" recomended with all the values?

You mean a list of what everyone should be using? As of right now no. The values of modifiers will inevitably change as new codes come out. For example, despite the fact that the majority of us have settled on a hitstun level of 11.75% this may change with the release of newer codes. With the addition of fast fall, 11.75% may be too much stun, as it's easier to follow up. We may once more have to tweak the hitstun level. Then, there's the fall speed level. Which I have at 1.35 as opposed to 1.25.

I have a question though, with 1.35% fall speed do you guys think it's necessary to include a slight damage boost from a damage modifier due to the fact that vertical moves have been nerfed?

 

[leafgreen386]

I have a question though, with 1.35% fall speed do you guys think it's necessary to include a slight damage boost from a damage modifier due to the fact that vertical moves have been nerfed?

I never understood this. Increasing damage ratio will also buff horizontal kill moves, even more than they already have been by the higher grav.

 

[Starscream]

Then what do you suggest we do? Would you prefer not to use fall speed modifiers at all? I don't think I would be able to go back to floaty Brawl.

If you just want to test damage ratio modifiers with 1.35 grav try 1.065 for the damage modifier.

Also, is the Cheat Code Manager being really lame for anyone else and not letting them use the maximum amount of lines? If I go for 254-256 lines of code selected it tells me I have more than 256.

 

[Almas]

The downwards gravity mod seems to affect kill%s less than the upwards one (for apparent reasons). I would recommend trying without the mods - many people have pointed out that vertical kills often kill at much earlier %s compared to the horizontal ones anyway.

 

[SGX]

I don't think a damage buff is necessary with the faster fall speed. It is especially not necessary with reduced/eliminated move decay.

 

[SketchHurricane]

The downwards gravity mod seems to affect kill%s less than the upwards one (for apparent reasons). I would recommend trying without the mods - many people have pointed out that vertical kills often kill at much earlier %s compared to the horizontal ones anyway.

Not surprising, since most of the reliable kills in the game were either upsmashes/tilts or spikes, since it's so easy to get back to the ledge in general. I actually think the gravity mod evens this out, as a few others have said.

Not to mention that with hitstun, juggles are a lot more dangerous. In that sense, the vertical nerf created by gravity is offset by the juggle boost created by hitstun.

 

[MBlaze]

It's intentional because they don't grab the ledge properly without the autosweetspot in place. This worked like this in Melee for Ness, he wouldn't go past the edge he would autosnap on if you aimed right. (Like it is in Brawl). Lucario NEEDS the autosnap due to how his Up B works, and as it is, it's a horrible recovery to begin with (no way to defend himself) so if he couldn't autosnap, then he'd be screwed greatly.

This, Lucario get's edge hogged so many times already it's not even funny. Imagine him without that auto sweet spot ability.... lol..

 

[sagemoon]

Lucario actually got a buff. His up b isnt that much different, and his dair can really take advantage of the no sweetspot ledges.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

sacrifices must be made for the better good

 

[Osi]

Ness and lucas have spike options too, so I don't feel bad if their recovery is a bit worse. Ness can kill at such low %s now on edge spikes lol.

 

[kupo15]

Ness and lucas have spike options too, so I don't feel bad if their recovery is a bit worse. Ness can kill at such low %s now on edge spikes lol.

Lucario, ness and lucas' recoveries do not change. The person most effected is Diddy. He has to be very cautious about up bing to the ledge

 

[Osi]

Lucario, ness and lucas' recoveries do not change. The person most effected is Diddy. He has to be very cautious about up bing to the ledge

Ah, yea since he has the shake the stage from below thing to his up B, forgot all about that.

These codes bumped MAD from my set lol, longer ledge cancel one plus no sweetspot did it hehe. Now I really want a decent dash dance... without MAD I'm noticing how much more it is gimp in brawl. Just a longer start up animation to turn in would be nice, and add some variety to it.

 

[kupo15]

Ah, yea since he has the shake the stage from below thing to his up B, forgot all about that.

These codes bumped MAD from my set lol, longer ledge cancel one plus no sweetspot did it hehe. Now I really want a decent dash dance... without MAD I'm noticing how much more it is gimp in brawl. Just a longer start up animation to turn in would be nice, and add some variety to it.

I just PMed PW about DDing. Spunit said he will help with the shield stun which is awesome so hopefully he can figure it out which I think he can. I wish I had coding experience because the bulk of the codes we need are essentially, find the value and allow us to change it. Its amazing how such a simple change makes such a big difference and shield stun is the missing piece to the puzzle to switch this game from def to offensive.

And in case you guys are wondering, I am expecting shield stun to only be a 6-8 lines code for this reason.

Hitstun 1.4 was 29 lines. This was a perfect hit stun at brawls default
Hit stun 2.0 is 33 lines. This is the current one that added a modifier.

Shield is as it stands is like hitstun 1.4. All we need to do is add a modifier for both strong and weak hit values.

 

[Dan_X]

What values have you guys been using with fast fall? I think I'm going to test 1.25, as I've only tested 1.35. Personally, I love the speed at which one falls with the 1.35 value but I've noticed some things that bug me. Maybe it's just me, but I noticed that it's much more difficult for certain characters to combo. For example, at higher percents I'll downthrow with Falcon and short hop to a sweet-spotted knee. It was especially effective if the enemy didn't DI correctly. In practicing against bots they fell so fast that a short hop jump over them and they'd hit the ground before I could get the knee out. Also, for characters like Falco I've noticed changes too. We all know that the CGs are gone with proper DI, but seeing as how the CPU doesn't DI properly and was falling too fast to regrab I think that's lame. I did some of this testing against Fox, and he falls fast anyway, so perhaps it's not a big deal. I think regrab should be an option for bad DI.

So what do you guys think? Will I experience this at both the 1.25 and 1.35 values? Is this just somthing that comes with the territory of faster falling? Or perhaps we can look at this differently... is it a good thing that Falcon will have to work harder to pull off the sweet-spotted knee combos?

Also, yeah. Thanks for the input guys. I've decided not to use any damage modifiers.

P.S. The new lagless edges code works amazingly well-- I've seen not a single flaw. Also, the no sweetspot code appears to work PERFECTLY, save for the apparent buggyness that Wolf's side B is said to experience. It's amazing, the edge guarding game is back full force. Awesome!!

P.S.S I took off Muba's DDcode (dash end cancel code) and to use PW's Dash Cancel code instead. To be honest, I like Muba's better until we have a DD code. Muba's code made characters move so much more responsively. In addition, it made DDing much better for every character, though it didn't increase the range of DD much if at all. The turn around animations suck, and I never realized how evident that was until I tried out this code. I noticed that the crouching during the dash with the Dash Cancel code causes some characters to slide-- I noticed this with Captain Falcon.

So essentially, it seems that Muba's code does everything that the Dash Cancel code does and more. The ONLY bad thing, from what I've heard, is that Muba's code removes Squirtle's ATs. I'm assuming he can not shell shift (or whatever they call it, I forget). If that's the case, that does suck for squirtle, but it will help every other character respectively. Even without the option to shell shift squirtle would be able to dash dance which is almost just as good.

What do you guys think?

 

[kupo15]

What values have you guys been using with fast fall? I think I'm going to test 1.25, as I've only tested 1.35. Personally, I love the speed at which one falls with the 1.35 value but I've noticed some things that bug me. Maybe it's just me, but I noticed that it's much more difficult for certain characters to combo. For example, at higher percents I'll downthrow with Falcon and short hop to a sweet-spotted knee. It was especially effective if the enemy didn't DI correctly. In practicing against bots they fell so fast that a short hop jump over them and they'd hit the ground before I could get the knee out. Also, for characters like Falco I've noticed changes too. We all know that the CGs are gone with proper DI, but seeing as how the CPU doesn't DI properly and was falling too fast to regrab I think that's lame. I did some of this testing against Fox, and he falls fast anyway, so perhaps it's not a big deal. I think regrab should be an option for bad DI.

So what do you guys think? Will I experience this at both the 1.25 and 1.35 values? Is this just somthing that comes with the territory of faster falling? Or perhaps we can look at this differently... is it a good thing that Falcon will have to work harder to pull off the sweet-spotted knee combos?

Also, yeah. Thanks for the input guys. I've decided not to use any damage modifiers.

P.S. The new lagless edges code works amazingly well-- I've seen not a single flaw. Also, the no sweetspot code appears to work PERFECTLY, save for the apparent buggyness that Wolf's side B is said to experience. It's amazing, the edge guarding game is back full force. Awesome!!

The only thing I would like from the lagless edges is to keep the ledge invincibility. I also wish that all side bs didn't sweet spot

 

[SGX]

I'm running out of room for codes too.

Currently I'm letting Lagless ledges sit out in favor of no auto-sweet spotting. I think I have about 41 lines of code left to play with. I sure hope Shield stun and DDing are small. =P

MAD
ALC
No Auto Sweetspot
No Tripping
No Dash end animation
Gravity (1.25 fall rate)
No Stale Moves
Hitstun 11%

Orca: I'm definitely in favor of 1.25. Higher values make it much harder to chase people way out off the stage and come back, which I think is one of the best things in Brawl.