COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[InterimOfZeal]

My most profound apologies. You obviously know what you're doing when it comes to making a game as enjoyable and deep an experience as possible.

While I thank you for the upwards/downwards grav modifier, I'd like to say that until you actually prove you have some reason to be so uppity, you try and think about what parts of your speech to emphasize.

For the sake of argument: Fox is coming in with a dair at 0%. If you shield, you're going to get grabbed. If you don't, you're going to get combo'ed. Rolling and sidestepping aren't options, as one gives up your positioning on stage and the other not only takes time, but leaves you at a disavantage. What options would be better in this situation than CCing? You absorb the hit, but are left with just enough advantage that if you guess properly, you're not going to eat a crapton of damage.

EDIT: SHeLL, I've been working with B+ since the first codes were released. Before Kupo and even WindOwl started drawing attention to B+ with their (respectable) threads. Just because I haven't been actively posting until just now doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

So with all due respect, stop riding his jock, mangz. So what if he's a coder? A douchey response is still just that.

If the B+ mods are really that strict, there's something wrong. I've argued with a few top players on these boards without fear of mods. Shouldn't be any different for codemonkeys.

SUPER EDIT: I'm not saying OMFG WE NEED CC. It was an idea that I wanted to throw out there, and I found that paprika's response was a little bit testy for my tastes. Kupo's response was fine, even though it was still a negative towards CC. If you don't want to do something, don't. Just don't be a **** about it.

 

[Shell]

Almas, sorry to be such a jumpy git, but how's the char-specific code coming since yesterday?

*twitches*

 

[kupo15]

For the sake of argument: Fox is coming in with a dair at 0%. If you shield, you're going to get grabbed. If you don't, you're going to get combo'ed. Rolling and sidestepping aren't options, as one gives up your positioning on stage and the other not only takes time, but leaves you at a disavantage. What options would be better in this situation than CCing? You absorb the hit, but are left with just enough advantage that if you guess properly, you're not going to eat a crapton of damage.

The best option is to not get in the situation in the first place and when you do get in it, we should provide every option to escape your mistakes. Most people actually use that mechanic as a strategy which goes against the whole punishment aspect imo. 7% damage trade off for a smash attack is not considered punishment to me.

 

[Shell]

Meh, I think CCing was a fine technique. Like any other good technique, if you predict someone will crouch cancel something, you can take advantage of them.

 

[kupo15]

Meh, I think CCing was a fine technique. Like any other good technique, if you predict someone will crouch cancel something, you can take advantage of them.

I wouldm't call samus being able to CC past 80% being a fine technique. If anything it should only be at 20% max or something. Regardless, I still don't like the concept of CCing. Its a mechanic that kills melee for me when I go back to it and it allows you to survive longer.

 

[Shell]

But if you do crouch cancel a kill move at higher percents it'll send you out at a terribly low angle. If lines permitted, I'd be willing to play around with something like this.

 

[Almas]

Crouch cancelling is definitely something I think would be nice to add. I've got ideas, but at the moment they're somewhat imperfect/line inefficient. Plus, you have to factor in the concept of crawling - you would risk giving too much power to people like Snake with crawling.

I'm working on writing a more line efficient version of the code now, SHeLL - I was waiting on input from a (far) more experienced hacker, and now I've got it I can get to work.

Interim, click this. Now go down the list, and look at who has credit for 90% of the Brawl+ codes. Paprika easily warrants respect.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Thing is, if you're doing Fox's dair or a similar aerial at 0%, you're begging to get CCed. Same with stupid use of rapid-jabs.

Samus and Yoshi NEEDED those CCs. Without them, they'd be garbage. Plus, they added variance to play based on percentages (something that until recently, vB and B+ have been lacking). If I'm Sheik and I'm fighting a Samus, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will have at least 3 needles before I approach her from the air. You can also bet that if I see her shield, I'm getting outta there ASAP, lest I get up-bed. It made matches from character to character even more unique. vB is just a zoning/camping game. Yeah, you might change one or two tactics up slightly, but in the end, a good strategy is universally good. I'd like it to not be that way with B+.

EDIT: Looked at it, and props to him for helping with the PAL version. I'll be a bit more respectful, I just ask for the same. Don't treat me like some rabid Melee fanboy or someone who is demanding things, and we can all get along just fine.

Granted, I'm rather sick right now, so my fuse ~may~ be a little shorter than normal. All the same.

 

[Shell]

Awesome. I just got done with a biochem exam Monday and an immunology exam today (freeeeeedooooom), so I'm free to test codes now whenever. I don't know of any way to help you, but thank you for what you're doing.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Hrm... Snake CCing and crawling at the same time would be pretty disgusting. Maybe make it so it only registers when the input is straight down? Or they're in the crouching neutral state? It's annoying for players to have to learn that, but all the same, that might do the trick.

EDIT: SHeLL, whereabouts are you located? Mebbe we could go thru some codesets together via WFC. I ~should~ be going out to meet with some people, but I'm seriously like... dying today. D:

 

[Shell]

Or maybe add a timing component to CC? You only CC moves within X frames of crouching? Dunno how long.

 

[kupo15]

Hrm... Snake CCing and crawling at the same time would be pretty disgusting. Maybe make it so it only registers when the input is straight down? Or they're in the crouching neutral state? It's annoying for players to have to learn that, but all the same, that might do the trick.

He can easily just stop moving when he is nearby and you can't grab him and he has a lot of options from the ground. Sounds bad...

 

[GPDP]

Ok, so for fun, I tried out MuBa's codeset. I can see why some like it. It's furiously fast. However, I'm not sure I want that kind of pace. I prefer something more like kupo's or mookie's. Though maybe once Almas's code comes out, I'll give it another go.

 

[kupo15]

Ok, so for fun, I tried out MuBa's codeset. I can see why some like it. It's furiously fast. However, I'm not sure I want that kind of pace. I prefer something more like kupo's or mookie's. Though maybe once Almas's code comes out, I'll give it another go.

I will be using those codes so that will speed up the pace. I'm afraid and excited for the new code when it comes. I only know that falcon could use a shorter sh but how do we really know which characters to adjust its stuff without imbalancing the game?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I actually really like MuBa's codeset.

Hrm... SHeLL's recommendation sounds good. Can only get CC for so many frames, maybe have a period of time where you can't CC again, so Snake isn't going crawlcrouchcrawlcrouchcrawlcrouchcrawlcrouch

 

[Shell]

Semi-precise timing + percentage limit = pretty balanced, yah?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Sounds nice to me. Up to the coders, though.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

if we had CC, meta knight can just CC everything and downsmash everything

 

[Shell]

No need to balance everything around MK. Especially not now that we will be able to nerf him as needed.

 

[Team Giza]

I'm in with the crouch canceling as long as it is worked out enough so that it really only applied to the characters on the heavier half of the cast.

 

[GPDP]

Since people are requesting some fun codes, I might as well ask what the possibilities could be on having the normal shield and the power shield use different, exclusive inputs, such as the normal shield on R and the power shield on L. I realize many people don't use R to shield, so it's obviously not a practical code as far as standards go, but I would love to completely and 100% eliminate random PSing.

If one of the hackers feels like taking some time off the usual stuff and look into this, I would really appreciate it. I don't expect it to happen, but hey, I can dream, can't I?

 

[SketchHurricane]

All this CC talk has got me intrigued...

I don't necessarily mean have them cancel into throws. Maybe make jab cancelling actually effective? Like... rather than remove 1 frame, make it so you can cancel the jab into smashes, tilts, grabs by pressing down, like it was with Melee. Yeah, I know we're not aiming for SSBM 2, but the game had some good things going for it.

It's worth testing, at least.

I think we need to fix grab releases, or make a code that allows you to break grabs if you press Z within two frames of being grabbed. It would effectively hinder predictable CGs, and also allow for a way outta silly tick-throws.

Interesting idea, the Z thing. Though do we really want to take away IC's chaingrabs? I guess it would still be hard to break the chain if they were mixing in different throws. At the same time, if you're the type that want to see even IC's chaingrabs go, that's one way to do it. I personally would like to see ICs play less for the grab, so it's an interesting idea.

Luigi SHOULD be a character that, when he gets in, he can mess you up. There's a reason his traction is so terrible. It's because he should be on the offense almost all the time. Luigi's that ******* that everyone has to zone. They just don't realize it yet.

Oh believe me, I realize it. Luigi ***** big-time now with hitstun if he gets in

Crouch cancelling is definitely something I think would be nice to add. I've got ideas, but at the moment they're somewhat imperfect/line inefficient. Plus, you have to factor in the concept of crawling - you would risk giving too much power to people like Snake with crawling.

Or maybe crawling will actually be useful?? Seriously, who crawls? Besides, you could probably SH dair or bair-crossup the crap out of a crawl abuser, even with CC in the mix.

Or maybe add a timing component to CC? You only CC moves within X frames of crouching? Dunno how long.

Good idea.

if we had CC, meta knight can just CC everything and downsmash everything

"With hitstun, MK can just combo everything!"

I think you get the point

 

[Team Giza]

I think we need to fix grab releases, or make a code that allows you to break grabs if you press Z within two frames of being grabbed. It would effectively hinder predictable CGs, and also allow for a way outta silly tick-throws. We could also put in CC if we're looking at the second option.

As long as there is a timer after the button is hit so you can't just keep jamming on it. I don't want this to turn into the grab escape system in Primal Fury were any grab is hella easy to escape. I don't think it should apply to chain throws but if it was then the timer would definitely be necessary. So after hitting the button to escape and it opens up a 2 frame period were you can grab escape but starts a 10+ frame period were you cannot activate another grab escape.

 

[Adapt]

For the current "code to test", the frame by frame execution code... is there any way to get that to work with something other than a GC controller?

 

[kupo15]

For the current "code to test", the frame by frame execution code... is there any way to get that to work with something other than a GC controller?

prob not. They would have to add that to the code

 

[leafgreen386]

Make it so crouch canceling doesn't work for strong hits. Done.

lol it would be sooo situational I'm not even sure if it'd be worth putting in to begin with.

Also, afaik, in melee you were able to CC as long as you were crouching before you got hit, so you could still DI the hit while receiving reduced knockback, making for some insane survivals. You just had to be quick with shifting the control stick.

 

[Tonb3rry]

I'm just wondering about something.
Below the combination codes, there's a code called "Hybrid Air Dodge" which is 90 lines long.
Now, in the code it says that the code uses a timer who's making the character unable to do things for a specified amount of time. I'd like to put on a time that lasts long enough for my character to not popping up the shield every time I'm trying to wavedash. When that happends all the time, the wavedashing is close to completely useless...

 

[Starscream]

The timer only restricts using the directional air dodge again to prevent stacking wavedashes. Any action can still be performed out of a wavedash instantaneously.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

As long as there is a timer after the button is hit so you can't just keep jamming on it. I don't want this to turn into the grab escape system in Primal Fury were any grab is hella easy to escape. I don't think it should apply to chain throws but if it was then the timer would definitely be necessary. So after hitting the button to escape and it opens up a 2 frame period were you can grab escape but starts a 10+ frame period were you cannot activate another grab escape.

That sounds exactly like what I'd like. We already know there's a way to escape grabs in this game, we just don't know how. I also don't want people to be mashing Z in hopes of breaking a grab.

Make it so crouch canceling doesn't work for strong hits. Done.

lol it would be sooo situational I'm not even sure if it'd be worth putting in to begin with.

Also, afaik, in melee you were able to CC as long as you were crouching before you got hit, so you could still DI the hit while receiving reduced knockback, making for some insane survivals. You just had to be quick with shifting the control stick.

Another excellent suggestion. :D

And yeah, we should reward players for actually knowing how to survive. Granted, DI in Brawl is as ridiculous as it was in 64, so CCing might make Shoryuken DI too good.

 

[Tonb3rry]

The timer only restricts using the directional air dodge again to prevent stacking wavedashes. Any action can still be performed out of a wavedash instantaneously.

Aha, I see! Guess I kinda misunderstood the whole thing =/
Hope they'll put in this feature though. Could be fun.

 

[kupo15]

Updated my set.

Gravity from 1.15 to 1.2
FF is at 1.13

 

[Dan_X]

Kupo, can you put this information with the HAD code in some way?

Note: For modifying the timer delay for the code, all you need to do is change the Bold value to the amount of time(in floating point) and the Italicized value the Bold value -1.

that's directly what PW said to me.

Thanks!

p.s. is there a Brawl+ back room now?

 

[kupo15]

funny thought I did. There you go

MuBa, you need to post your code variables for me

 

[Flamingo]

Kupo is seriously too good.

A Gloom for your troublez.

 

[RWB]

Just a question- do these codes work on the european version?

 

[goodoldganon]

There is a PAL setting somewhere...

That does bring up an interesting point Kupo, do we have a code setting for PAL that mimics yours?

 

[CyberGlitch]

http://www.usbgecko.com/codes/index.php?r=e&c=RSBP01

You can find the PAL codes here (codes for European version of Brawl). This same link can be found in the first post's Links section. Be sure to thank Paprika Killer, as can be seen on the page, he's been almost completely responsible for the European adaptation of Brawl+. Currently we don't provide a ready made codeset, though I think this is a great idea.

Also, Kupo, is there a reason why the Upwards/Downwards gravity modifiers are in the Misc. Section and not the Gravity/Jumps section? While I'm at it, I'd think it'd be much simpler if you split that code into two, one saying Upwards Gravity (1 line), the other Downwards. It'd need less explanation, and would make it easier for new individuals to turn on and off upwards gravity. With Almas's upcoming code, however, those two codes may not be needed anymore.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

So I missed a few pages because of time difference. But that doesn't matter, since what I'm posting is still relevant.

InterimOfZeal, I wouldn't go as far as to call you an idiot, but you are obviously horribly misinformed.

Hey, how's that huge smash scene in the Netherlands treatin' ya?

:D!

Says the guy from colorado, LOL. I don't recall any major players coming from Colorado.

The Netherlands have the best Melee scene in Europe. Of course Amsah is well known even in the US, but you also have other excellent players like Adam, Faab, choco, zgetto, Marc, the list goes on.

Secondly, you are clearly unaware of how CC works. Read this. You keep repeating how CC would help against Fox' dair, when that's one of the moves people use to COUNTER crouch canceling!

If you dair someone they get knocked out of the crouching animation by the first hit of the dair and then get stunned normally by all the other hits. Didn't you ever wonder why people use dair in the first place, when nair has better range and stun and is safer in general? It's because if the nair gets crouch cancelled, Fox gets grabbed and loses a stock. With dair, you can ALWAYS shine before the other player can do anything, even if you're playing another space animal that's mashing down b.

Like paprika killer said, we are NOT remaking Melee. If I want Melee, I go to a smashfest and play Melee, LOL. Crouch canceling was a VERY powerful technique in Melee, so much that entire matchups revolve around it. Take a look at Marth vs. Sheik for example. Simplified, it looks something like this:

Sheik ruins Marth's ground/DD game by throwing needles, forcing him to approach. Marth has limited options though. If he tries to DD closer, Sheik can overshoot a dash attack or boost grab and Marth gets **** comboed. If Marth tries double fair (not that that's a good approach in the first place) sheik dash attacks under/between the fairs and Marth gets **** comboed. The only way Marth can even TRY to hit Sheik is by uber spacing tipped fairs and dtilts. Both of these can be CC'd at quasi low percentages for a grab, which leads to more **** combos for sheik.

This way, crouch canceling allows sheik to completely shut down Marth's options, which is why it's such a **** matchup.

Also, CC pretty much ruins low tiers because they have less safe moves. If you're sheik, you can pretty much approach every low tier matchup like this:

He does some weird low tier bull****, I CC it/use my broken ftilt hitbox to hit him out of it->grab.

/stock

CC is very very powerful and there's enough reasons not to include it in Brawl+ other than "we don't want Melee 2.0".

 

[MuBa]

Alright kupo here's my updated set as of now

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=82GHA28B


1.25 Down Gravity

2 Frame PowerShield

0.30 Shield Damage

.05 Shield Gain

Hitlag -> (H*2+7) divide 11
(30%, In another words, very low hitlag = Smooth Knee!)

.4755 Hitstun

Jump Speed 1.60

Throw Speed 1.10

Dashing 1.25

Fast Fall 1.2

Short Hop 0.825

 

[cAm8ooo]

Muba, i just tried your codeset. WOW, great job. You now have another supporter