"common knowledge" that a lot of people don't know

[mers]

that's what I thought too, but then I came across this post:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2933012&postcount=2

apparently pivot grabbing extends peach's CG as well.

Whoa. That's super weird. Since for Peach it only applies to the no DI regrab, the only explanation that I could come up with is that Peach's grab-box reaches slightly higher farther away from her body. That way, when you don't pivot and simply regrab, you'd be grabbing with the lower part of the grab-box, allowing them to jump out at lower percentages. But with the pivot, you grab with the higher part of her grab-box that is farther away from her body, allowing you to grab for longer before they can jump out.

Or sometihng. IDK if her grab-box is even angled like that. Does anyone have a picture of Peach's standing grab hitboxes? Because pivot grab is really just a standing grab.

EDIT:

I found Seanson's hitbox guide, and yeah it looks like she has two grab-boxes. One inside her body, which is quite small, and one around her grabbing hand, which is substantially larger. I guess that explains the difference in percentages?

If somebody could confirm this, it'd be great.

Also, her smaller grab-box is hard to see.

 

[Kyu Puff]

There's no hit lag on moves that do less than 1% in 1.0/1.1, so you can't sdi them. This changes in 1.2.

There is hitlag though (at least when you hit a shield)...

 

[Fletch]

There is hitlag though (at least when you hit a shield)...

Version 1.0 NTSC

-Flame Cancel is possible
-you cannot DI/Smash DI hits that do less than 1% damage because they dont give hit lag


Version 1.1 NTSC

-Flame Cancel is possible
-you cannot DI/Smash DI hits that do less than 1% damage because they dont give hit lag
-specific differences between 1.0 and 1.1 have not been uncovered


Version 1.2 NTSC

-Flame Cancel is NOT possible
-you CAN DI/Smash DI hits that do less than 1% damage because they give hit lag
-Varios bugs removed (link superjump, ic freeze glitch, etc)

Might be different with shields though.

 

[X1-12]

There is hitlag though (at least when you hit a shield)...

I would assume you can from shield, because foxes lasers you can't SDI but you can sheild DI. I expect it would be a similar thing

 

[Magus420]

There is hitlag though (at least when you hit a shield)...

Only when it's completely fresh. If it normally does 1 dmg it will be below 1.00 if that move is in any of the 9 stale moves slots. Fully staled 2 dmg hits are still above 1.00 so it only applies to 1 dmg hits. When you hit with a multihitting attack it gets added once into stale moves after the first hit (any only stales once per use), so if a multi 1 dmg hitting move is fresh the 1st hit will be normal then the rest will be below 1.00.

In those version(s) (I've also heard it only applies to 1.0, and I haven't checked 1.1 myself to know for sure), hits that do less than 1.00 dmg have no hitlag, you can't DI/SDI/ASDI them, and there is no shield hitlag/damage/stun/pushback/SDI/ASDI.

Pick Sheik and have the other person Z shield her rapid jabs when the rapid jabs are fresh. It has hitlag/damage/stun/pushback like normal. Hit them with the rapid jabs to stale it and then try it again. The rapid jabs have no effect on the shield and you can freely angle your shield around while Sheik is pecking away making little ring graphics on the edge of the shield. If you're talking about blizzard, I think there might be a 2 dmg hitbox on it that always ends up hitting shields except for at like max range only the 1 dmg hits and will act like it does above with Sheik's jab.

I was wondering about u-tilt, which according to phanna's thread



has 3 frames of hitlag and 2 frames of shield stun. Would that really only apply to the first hit? Or are the small hits of u-tilt >%1 (I was always under the impression they aren't, because the difference between u-tilt in 1.0/1.1 and the other versions is huge).

All of the small hits do 1 dmg. The last hit does 7. On block, the 3 hitlag/2 stun would either apply to all of the small hits or none of them, since hitting a shield does not stale a move. If fresh it's 3/2 on all of them, and if not they are all 1/0 (some people would say it's 2/2 and 0/0 if they consider hitlag to mean the number of frames added).

 

[Kyu Puff]

I was wondering about u-tilt, which according to phanna's thread

[*]03 05 Up Tilt (other hits, VERSION 1.0 - 1.1)

has 3 frames of hitlag and 2 frames of shield stun, but each hit is <1%. If the stun really only applies to the first hit, can the shielding player roll away during the multihit part?

I'm wondering because based on that data, it seemed like it was possible to keep someone in shield stun indefinitely with desynched wd u-tilts. I guess it would only work in 1.2+, and would be really easy to shield di out of...

 

[FoxLisk]

whoa. ist here a guide explaining in detail the mechanics of stale moves? i had no idea there were slots and fractions of damage and things.

 

[Kanelol]

whoa. ist here a guide explaining in detail the mechanics of stale moves? i had no idea there were slots and fractions of damage and things.

there was a thread a few months ago in general discussion where magus showed up and dropped a ton of knowledge on everyone

ill try and find it later

 

[Kyu Puff]

All of the small hits do 1 dmg. The last hit does 7. On block, the 3 hitlag/2 stun would either apply to all of the small hits or none of them, since hitting a shield does not stale a move. If fresh it's 3/2 on all of them, and if not they are all 1/0 (some people would say it's 2/2 and 0/0 if they consider hitlag to mean the number of frames added).

Is hitting a shield with a move different from whiffing it?

Also, do moves that do >1% always have the same shield stun, regardless of staling?

 

[mers]

whoa. ist here a guide explaining in detail the mechanics of stale moves? i had no idea there were slots and fractions of damage and things.

The slot thing is just that there are 9 slots for stale moves. Every time you hit with a move (I'm not sure about on a shield), it goes into the first of these slots, and the last one is pushed out. Additionally, when you hit with a move, the game looks at the number of times this move appears in the stale move slots. The more times it appears (the more staled it is), the less percent it does.

NOTE: Move knockback is calculated as a result of ending percentage after the move, and does NOT stale. So, if you knee somebody with a completely fresh knee and it brings them to 100%, its the same as a completely stale one that brings them to 100%. However, kneeing someone who is at 100% before the knee will obviously hit harder when its fresh, as they'll be at a higher percentage afterward.

Also, damage is calculated in either tenths or hundredths of percents, I wanna say tenths but I'm not really sure. That's one of the reasons a move can appear to do one percent above or below what you expect. A players percent is also calculated to decimal places (I think), so it can cause what appear to be anomalies but are really just hidden decimals influencing the final percentage.

Some of this could definitely be wrong, though. This is just my understanding.

 

[FoxLisk]

The slot thing is just that there are 9 slots for stale moves. Every time you hit with a move (I'm not sure about on a shield), it goes into the first of these slots, and the last one is pushed out. Additionally, when you hit with a move, the game looks at the number of times this move appears in the stale move slots. The more times it appears (the more staled it is), the less percent it does.

NOTE: Move knockback is calculated as a result of ending percentage after the move, and does NOT stale. So, if you knee somebody with a completely fresh knee and it brings them to 100%, its the same as a completely stale one that brings them to 100%. However, kneeing someone who is at 100% before the knee will obviously hit harder when its fresh, as they'll be at a higher percentage afterward.

Also, damage is calculated in either tenths or hundredths of percents, I wanna say tenths but I'm not really sure. That's one of the reasons a move can appear to do one percent above or below what you expect. A players percent is also calculated to decimal places (I think), so it can cause what appear to be anomalies but are really just hidden decimals influencing the final percentage.

Some of this could definitely be wrong, though. This is just my understanding.

cool. thanks for this explanation!

 

[KAOSTAR]

I got bored 1 day and jv5 a level 9 bowser using shadow balls only.

it seemed like the move had less knock back.

it wouldn't kill at percents it normally would. I think projectiles or something has knock back effect.

 

[Magus420]

As far as stale moves goes, hitting a shield is the same as whiffing it. No, moves above 1.00 dmg don't always do the same hitlag/shieldstun. Those are based directly on damage, and stale moves do less damage. If a 12 dmg hit is staled to only do 9 dmg, it will have hitlag/shield stun like a 9 dmg hit.

The slots for stale moves are weighted btw which wasn't mentioned, so it isn't as simple as how many times it appears in the 9 slots. The more recent slots hold more weight. There's a formula for it.

Yeah, most projectiles stale in knockback growth in addition to damage output like all moves do in Brawl.


Stale moves info:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10200566
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10201545

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Ganondorf's standing upB has more reach than Yoshi's grab.

Stupid lvl 9 computers. >_>

 

[Mokumo]

is it possible to jc shield? like the same as a jc shine but a shield instead? ive seen plenty of waveshine oos kind of stuff in tournament before, and i was wondering if you should jc shield out of a shine or something.

that would be kinda cool

 

[X1-12]

nope, unfortunately the only 3 things you can JC are Upsmashes, UpBs and grabs,

JC shine is not actually a JC so dunno why its called that

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

If you input shine before you leave the ground after jumping, you will cancel the jump with the shine. Then you cancel the shine with a jump, rinse repeat until your hands fall off (or you mess up, which is likelier). So, yes, JC shine is actually a JC.

And afaik you can't jump cancel into shield.

 

[Metal Reeper]

So....JC upsmashes have less lag? or come out quicker?

 

[Rappster]

So....JC upsmashes have less lag? or come out quicker?

they allow you to dash and immediately usmash.
as opposed to running, slowing to a stop and then usmashing

 

[Pi]

So....JC upsmashes have less lag? or come out quicker?

wat
no
JC is just the act of canceling/ending something with a jump
ex;
JC grab
you cancel your run animation with a jump
jc upsmash
you cancel your run/shield animation with a jump, then upsmash before you/as you leave the ground

jump CANCEL

 

[X1-12]

JC SHINE- the last paragraph is the most important, unlike the others its not just like pressing shine while in the jumping start-up animation

so, honestly JCing is a bit of a misnomer. JCing existed before JC shines in the form of JC grabbing and JC usmashing. These two techniques refer to cancelling the jump animation during startup frames with either grab or usmash.

When people started multishining, they called it JC shining because they thought it was the same mechanic in place (canceling jump startup frames with a move, in this case, shine), because of the observable phenomena that Fox/Falco didn't ever appear to leave the ground while multishining. However, this is not the case, we're shining on the first airborne frame and landing before we jump out again, so technically, this is nothing new. The only novel idea about what we can JC shining is doing successive shines on the first airborne frame.

So to answer JPOBS's question, JC shining is the name given to shining in midair on the first airborne frame such that with little (Fox) to no (Falco) delay on your jump out of the shine, you have already landed again. This lets Spacy players use pseudo-grounded shines in situations where they can jump, but could not normally shine (OoS and startup dash frames).

JC upsmash does not come out any quicker, infarct I'm under the impression its comes out very slightly slower but it allows you to upsmash when running or in shine/shield


EDIT:

wat
no
JC is just the act of canceling/ending something with a jump
ex;
JC grab
you cancel your run animation with a jump
jc upsmash
you cancel your run/shield animation with a jump, then upsmash before you/as you leave the ground

jump CANCEL

actually its more about cancelling the jump animation into other things I think, you can jumpcancel an up-smash from standing. its the jump animation that you cancel with the smash

 

[mastermoo420]

JC-usmash is situational. You're not going to do it when you're just standing still. However, it'll be faster than other options out of a run or shield involving the u-smash. It should be a given that it's slower since the "jump" command has to be input and recognized before you u-smash or else it would make no sense.

And, for all intents and purposes, I think it's fair to call it a JC shine, anyways. In the end, the jump is used to get out of the running state (or the shield state) and the shine is used in conjunction with the jump input.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Oh wow, I never knew that it wasn't actually canceling the jump. My bad, good stuff X1-12 (and Mogwai).

 

[KAOSTAR]

Edit: already answered but whatever

Ive made this mistake b4.

Jump canceling is the act of canceling you jump using something else. Common things are upsmash, shine, some b attacks(m2 disable), double jump canceling in which you cancel both of your jumps, or cancel all upwards momentum using a jump or combination of jump plus aerial.

ledge canceling is canceling the rest of an animation using the ledge resulting in no lag. You can also teeter cancel.

you can combine jump canceling and ledge canceling into a ledge jump cancel if you cancel your jump animation by falling off the ledge. (Sometimes when you swear you jumped but you fell straight down) I dont recall it being useful for anyone other than space animals in combination with the shine.

A common misconception is that canceling your shine with jump is called jump canceling, unfortunately this fallacy falls consistent with the other forms of canceling. you would assume ledge canceling is to cancel something with the ledge, jump cancel cancels something with the jump and provides a name to jumping out of a shine. but its not.

You can cancel some frames in certain tilts because they have IASA frames meaning you can act again on a certain frame(m2/marths dtilts)

You can cancel some animations upon landing-falco/fox/samus laser and missiles.(flame cancel is weird)

you can cancel your running animation by hitting down but it cannot be done during the initial dash yet if im not mistaken its called dash canceling.

I have always called it shield stopping but it may fall under some type of dash canceling, using your shield to stop during your dash.

You can cancel any run, walk, dash using taunt.

L cancel


jumping oos or from shine means nothing

 

[mastermoo420]

I'm assuming that post is geared towards me as a reply. And, like I said, I prefer to call it a JC-shine for all intents and purposes. What would you suggest the proper nomenclature be? Jump-and-shine-in-the-earliest-possible-frame-so-that-you-land-back-down-almost-instantly-making-it-seem-like-a-jump-cancel-but-then-it's-really-not-but-then-again-humans-can't-even-fully-register-such-a-small-time-interval-in-a-distinct-manner? I don't mean to poke fun, but JC-shine seems like the best way to name it. Jump-cancel shine. The "canceling" doesn't seem to refer to anything in specific so I prefer to keep it broad like that.

I mean, that's just my opinion. I mean, L-cancel for example; you're not canceling the L, lol. You're canceling the lag of a move using the L. Similarly, the jump cancels the shield/dash. Like I said, it's just my opinion.

But yes, I know, the JC-shine doesn't involve interrupting the jump animation. If anything, JC u-smash should be JI (jump-interrupting) u-smash (and the same for all other "JC" stuff) and the JC shine should be JC shine. But I'm just being picky here.

 

[X1-12]

depending on the situation I generally call it 'shine out of shield' or 'multi shining'/'double shining' beyond that there aren't any occasions where I'd use it If you are running and want to shine its quicker and easier to tap down and dash cancel to shine

In terms of naming things properly in melee, well thats never gonna happen. for example Jump cancelling and L-cancelling (Lag Cancelling) are both used meaning you cancel the word mentioned before, Platform cancelling and edge-cancelling instead use the platform and the edge to do the cancelling. There's not much consistancy

 

[KAOSTAR]

I said that its called a jump cancel shine if you jump and then shine

not shine and then jump out of it.

If you are somehow referring to multi shining, you
jump
shine as close to the ground as possible to cancel the jump
jump to cancel the shine and start your jump
shine as close to the ground as possible to cancel the jump

Shining oos is in fact a jump cancel shine. you still cancel your jump with shine.

whenever you press jump and dont jump because you did something else instead=jump cancel

 

[X1-12]

Kaostar, who are you talking to?

 

[KAOSTAR]

both of you. but originally I was talking to moo420 so mainly him.

multi shining is just jump cancel shines in succession.

shinning oos is just a jc shine. jc upsmash is jump canceled because had you not upsmashed you would have jumped.

 

[Taj278]

Can anyone explain this to me?

A while ago, I found out that if you are holding up, like a tilt, and press X+A at the same time you do an up smash.

Can someone explain to me why, even though I am only tilting the stick, that it counts as an attempted smash attack instead of just tilting, doing an up aerial, or even nothing?

This doesn't work for forward or down smash just like JC Up Smashes.

 

[mastermoo420]

I'm kinda confused by KAOSTAR's grammar, but okay. I think I'm content now. Plus, I think we/I'm taking things too seriously. P: In the end, the better player wins, not the person who knows how to properly name something. Relationship between jumping and shining is established now, so I think that should be all that's important, lol.

 

[X1-12]

calling it the JC shine gives the impression it runs on the same mechanic as a JC upsmash, if you are just claiming that you are cancelling your jump because you stop going up (even though its not in the window for a normal JC) you might aswell call any shine you do when you have upwards momentum a JC shine

AFAIK if you do what you call the JC shine you do actually leave the ground but doing the shine on the correct frame resets you to standing

 

[X1-12]

Can anyone explain this to me?

A while ago, I found out that if you are holding up, like a tilt, and press X+A at the same time you do an up smash.

Can someone explain to me why, even though I am only tilting the stick, that it counts as an attempted smash attack instead of just tilting, doing an up aerial, or even nothing?

This doesn't work for forward or down smash just like JC Up Smashes.

I'm fairly sure even though it may not seem it, you are actually pressing A slightly after X. Because you press X you are in the jump animation meaning you can't up-tilt you instead up-smash. The game registers the fact you are holding up, the fact you are jumping and the fact you are pressing A and just assumes you are trying to up-smash. I think the programmers just wanted to make it as easy to up-smash as possible

EDIT: Its possible that the game doesn't distinguish between jump inputs, so assumes that the fact you are both jumping and holding up means that you smashed up, as would be required for a up-smash

 

[mastermoo420]

You also call jumping out of the shine to do an aerial or whatever a "jump-cancel" so shine seems to just be a very special case. And you could have upwards momentum via a smash attack from your opponent or something doesn't make it JC. I call it JC because it cancels your current shine, shield, or dashing state. Personal preference, if anything.

 

[X1-12]

You also call jumping out of the shine to do an aerial or whatever a "jump-cancel" so shine seems to just be a very special case. And you could have upwards momentum via a smash attack from your opponent or something doesn't make it JC. I call it JC because it cancels your current shine, shield, or dashing state. Personal preference, if anything.

jumping out of shine is called jumping out of shine


doing an upsmash/upb/grab out of your jump animation is called jump-cancelling. In this case you are cancelling the jump. well cancelling the jump start-up atleast

 

[Taj278]

I'm fairly sure even though it may not seem it, you are actually pressing A slightly after X. Because you press X you are in the jump animation meaning you can't up-tilt you instead up-smash. The game registers the fact you are holding up, the fact you are jumping and the fact you are pressing A and just assumes you are trying to up-smash. I think the programmers just wanted to make it as easy to up-smash as possible

EDIT: Its possible that the game doesn't distinguish between jump inputs, so assumes that the fact you are both jumping and holding up means that you smashed up, as would be required for a up-smash

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually. It IS super easy to Up smash in this game.

TY :D I just find it odd that the game would would have you up smash instead of assuming you want to up air or do nothing like attempting to do this with other smashes.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't you can cancel jumps with tilts.

 

[stelzig]

jumping out of shine is called jumping out of shine

Isn't jumping out of shine simply called shinecancel...

 

[The Good Doctor]

Isn't jumping out of shine simply called shinecancel...

It's called "Jumping out of shine" or "Canceling shine with a jump."

 

[KAOSTAR]

I do like shine cancel tho lol. It at least give a name to a common occurrence.