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Character Rankings List - Post-March 2010

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Bellioes

Bellioes

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
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1,096
Location
Montreal, QC
Gf2tw said:
You filthy liar, where's the MK?
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Id say he was either banned/people chose to use him or the MK users just sucked.
2 foxes in the top8? And two wolfs too? lol Spacies FTW :)
I dont think Fox has a win yet on the list either (I could be mistaken though)
 
S

SilverDrgn85

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5
New way to calculate standings

I think there is a better way to show the data that is being compiled than is being done now. Currently, when a given player places using multiple characters, the points for that placing are divided evenly among them. I propose that instead of dividing the points, no points should be awarded instead.

Consider the following three games:

Game 1
-A B C
A- 5 5
B- - 5

Game 2
-A B C
A- 9 1
B- - 9

Game 3
-A B C
A- 5 9
B- - 9
If you were to look at tournament data for the three games, you would expect to see all characters represented in Game 1, about equally. This is also the case in Game 2, as the three characters share a rock-paper-scissors relationship. In Game 3, however, you would only expect to see A and B placing.

Game 1 is clearly the most balanced game, but is Game 2 or 3 the second most balanced? Game 3 has more match ups that are even, despite effectively having fewer characters to choose from. In the double blind first game of a set, for Game 2 there’s only a 1/3 chance the players will select the same character and have an even match. Otherwise, the first game, and as a result the whole set, is decided at the character select screen. Even when they do pick the same character, the extreme lopsidedness of the match ups causes the set to be decided by who won the first game. In Game 3, as long as the two players stay away from C, every round of the set will be an even match up. It is for these reasons that I believe Game 3 is the second most balanced game, despite effectively having fewer characters.

So, looking at which characters place in tournaments for Game 1 and Game 2, both games will have all three characters placing about equally. So how do we tell the difference between a very well balanced game and a very poorly balanced one using tournament data? The difference is in the number of characters a player uses to place.

In Game 1, no one ever needs to counter pick. In fact, you can’t get a match up advantage by switching characters. Furthermore, learning two characters takes a lot more effort than just learning one character, as the number of match ups you need to know doubles. So by attempting to learn two characters, you’re likely just putting yourself at a disadvantage. As a result, the overwhelming majority of players who place in Game 1 will likely be using only one character.

Contrast this with Game 2. The match ups are so lopsided, people who place will have to learn all three characters to overcome the large percentage of unwinnable pairings. You would therefore expect the top placers in Game 2 to be using all three characters on their way to the top.

Now, most games are closer to Game 3. There is a set of characters with no unwinnable match ups, and a set of characters with unwinnable match ups. In practice, an unwinnable match up is one where it’s easier to just learn another character than it is to learn how to win the match up, and this tends to be at around the 7-3 mark. So now we can have a functioning definition of what a “viable” character is: a viable character does not have any unwinnable match ups. This means that a person playing a viable character doesn’t have to counter pick to win a tournament. It is possible for a player to use multiple unviable characters, with the resulting combination allowing him to win, but if one is used alone, the player will be unable to win the tournament (at least one that has a decent level of competition).

Therefore, by not awarding points for placings that used multiple characters, we can get a clearer picture of which characters are viable. Characters that can’t place alone won’t be getting points, revealing which characters really are viable. The resulting numbers will much more accurately reflect the balance of the game.

There are other benefits to making this change. Worst case, it requires the same amount of number crunching, but most of the time, lines can be stripped out of the placings due to the use of more than one character. Depending on how the data has been stored and processed, it might even be fairly easy to recalculate the previous standings. This would supply pretty powerful evidence one way or the other on whether Metaknight is truly ban worthy.

I guess all that’s left to do now is find out if I hit the character limit or not….
 
wWw Dazwa

wWw Dazwa

#BADMAN
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,569
Location
maine
Mass Madness: Daz Madness
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224248
65 Entrants, $10 Entry fee

1. Shadow (Meta Knight)
2. Darc (Marth/Falco)
3. OBM (Mr. Game and Watch/Wario)
4. Basic Sausage (Pit/King DeDeDe/Diddy Kong)
5. dmbrandon (Meta Knight)
5. Dazwa (Zero Suit Samus)
7. Fatal (Snake)
7. Turtle (Diddy Kong)

Alternatively, Shadow and Diem used Super Knight. Please rank accordingly.
 
YOSHssb

YOSHssb

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
728
Location
Arkansas
NNID
aquilarion
smashkng

smashkng

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Malmö, Sweden
NNID
Smashsk
3DS FC
0318-7423-9293
Ganondorf good tourney results despite terrible approach and speed (30th)! He has enough advantages to not be last, especially because he has good match-up with Mr.G&W who if he hadn't the turtle he would have advantage. Wario also very good results!
 
Y

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
3,549
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Canada,BC
NNID
Skullicide
3DS FC
4055-4053-1813
ZOM~B

ZOM~B

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
497
Location
Woodstock, GA
Yonder said:
Biglou ***** again. The win looks even better with Luigi only against all these other high/top tiers.
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BigLou is too good.

kismet2 said:
Isn't it going to be at Waba this time? And yes you will.
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It's NOT at Waba. Make sure you and Reflex look at the other address in the thread... I'm not sure what exactly is up with the thread. It's also only one day. So make sure you let him know that. I want to get some more Falco experience too before you wreck me in tournament ;)
 
kismet2

kismet2

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
816
Location
Columbus, GA
ZOM~B said:
BigLou is too good.



It's NOT at Waba. Make sure you and Reflex look at the other address in the thread... I'm not sure what exactly is up with the thread. It's also only one day. So make sure you let him know that. I want to get some more Falco experience too before you wreck me in tournament ;)
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I'll keep that in mind. Sure lol.
 
Kinzer

Kinzer

Mammy
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Kinzer
3DS FC
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Bellioes said:
Id say he was either banned/people chose to use him or the MK users just sucked.
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Nice try but MK-banned tourneys don't count in here, so posting it would do nobody no good, and it doesn't say anywhere that MK was banned, o it's all legit.

P.S. you cannot suck with MK, it's like impossible.

smashkng said:
Ganondorf good tourney results despite terrible approach and speed (30th)! He has enough advantages to not be last, especially because he has good match-up with Mr.G&W who if he hadn't the turtle he would have advantage. Wario also very good results!
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Or nobody knew how to FTilt with Shiek.
 
prOAPC

prOAPC

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
1,816
Location
Cartagena/Bogotá - Colombia
I Torneo de Cartagena
Cartagena - Colombia
entrants: 17
entry fee: $20000 pesos (like 10 dollars)

1. Snes (Snake, Metaknight)
2. APC (Lucas, Metaknight)
3. Thiago SVA (Falco, Link, G&W)
4. Don JP (Wolf)
5. MVP (Ike, Ice Climbers, G&W)
5. Bloo (King Dedede)
7. APN Lata! (Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ness)
7. Pitu (Toon Link, Pit, Luigi)
9. La Parca
9. Kraken (Link, Falco)
9. Mente (Lucario)
9. Andres (Falco, Ike)
13. Syla (Link)
13. Sam
13. Greg (Peach, Ike)
13. Soni (Snake)
17. BSV

Bracket: http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/169/bracketf.gif
Link of tourney
 
da K.I.D.

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Rochester, NY
YOSHssb said:
Spam Tornado!
4/18/09 Conway, Arkansas
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7045262#post7045262
Also hosted here: http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=5475
$5 entry fee
17 Entrants

1. YOSH (Yoshi)
2. 3rd (Snake/Meta Knight) <=== Yes his tag was "3rd"
3. Xi (Meta Knight/Dedede)
4. GUN (Dedede)
5. Johrune (Fox/Ice Climbers)
6. S. B. Jenkins (Mr. G&W)
7. Doom? (Falco/Kirby)
8. Heckler (Mr. G&W)
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holy crap, you are the guy that does all those boss battle and time attack videos and stuff, I didnt think you were actually good...

my bad, I stand corrected. Good shiz sir.
 
Kiyuzoh

Kiyuzoh

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
61
Location
New Brunswick, NJ
Whoa whoa whoa, Luigi in B rank? When the hell did that happen? Regardless of how it happened, I'm happy it did. I would go rep the man in green, but I play Brawl+ now, and the only secondary I don't play to keep fresh in my mind for Brawl is Snake . . .

I guess I could try and rep Snake or something. :ohwell:
 
ZOM~B

ZOM~B

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
497
Location
Woodstock, GA
Kiyuzoh said:
Whoa whoa whoa, Luigi in B rank? When the hell did that happen? Regardless of how it happened, I'm happy it did. I would go rep the man in green, but I play Brawl+ now, and the only secondary I don't play to keep fresh in my mind for Brawl is Snake . . .

I guess I could try and rep Snake or something. :ohwell:
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Big Lou and Boss reppin him up.
 
Amazing Ampharos

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
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Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Ganondorf in no way does well against Mr. Game & Watch, especially because considering Mr. Game & Watch without a turtle is like considering Marth without a sword...

Anyway, the real purpose of this post is to point out that Lucas seems to have dropped from the rankings, and his placement in the short version list seems to contradict the number order in the long version.
 
Nidtendofreak

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
Am I blind, or did Lucas disappear from that list? N/M, I'm blind + use to seeing Lucas in red, not green.

And it's good to see Ike back above Ganondorf. XD We still have a win and a top 5 to add (once said Ikes in those tournaments fill out the forums...)
 
Bellioes

Bellioes

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
1,096
Location
Montreal, QC
Kinzer said:
Nice try but MK-banned tourneys don't count in here, so posting it would do nobody no good, and it doesn't say anywhere that MK was banned, o it's all legit.

P.S. you cannot suck with MK, it's like impossible
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Oh, I didnt know that. If its not that, then Im sticking with the MKs all sucking. I know you cant really suck with him. Its just that I know a lot of people who use MK only when their main cant win because people say hes soooo broken. But then they loose because everyone hast to know how to fight MK to even think about being competitive so the guy who isnt using MK is more prepared for the matchup than someone who just uses him to complement his main.
If you were being sarcastic, then just ignore all this. Its so hard to tell whether people are seious or not on the internet :ohwell:
 
Clai

Clai

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
1,254
Location
Where men are born and champions are raised
Amazing Ampharos said:
Ganondorf in no way does well against Mr. Game & Watch, especially because considering Mr. Game & Watch without a turtle is like considering Marth without a sword...

Anyway, the real purpose of this post is to point out that Lucas seems to have dropped from the rankings, and his placement in the short version list seems to contradict the number order in the long version.
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Game and Watch is Ganondorf's best top/high-tier matchup, so compared to the rest of the cast, Ganon does very well against the guy.

And @ Kizner saying the only reason Ganon does well in tournaments is because people don't know how to F-tilt with Sheik: Harsh dude.
 
Kinzer

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Las Vegas, NV
NNID
Kinzer
3DS FC
2251-6533-0581
Bellioes said:
If you were being sarcastic, then just ignore all this. Its so hard to tell whether people are seious or not on the internet :ohwell:
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No I'm being serious, MK-banned tourneys are not accounted for in here, and you can't suck with Meta Knight as long as you have some idea of being able to string attacks and space.

Clai said:
And @ Kizner saying the only reason Ganon does well in tournaments is because people don't know how to F-tilt with Sheik: Harsh dude.
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Hehe, I actually laughed at Kizner.

*Ahem* Eh well would you like to prove me wrong?

Because everybody knows how well Down Tilts work against Sonic, amirite?
 
Bellioes

Bellioes

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Location
Montreal, QC
Yeah but if you still dont know the other characters options/tricks used to deal with your character (and this is true of all characters), youre at a disadvantage. If you dont know what to do against your opponents character you will most likely loose. Especially if your opponent is used to the matchup and knows your character and what to do better than you do.
I guess its not sucking as MK. Its being inexperienced.

EDIT: I believed you that MK banned tournies didnt count but I thought you might have been kidding about it being impossible to suck with MK. IMO its not impossible, just very difficult.
 
Tarmogoyf

Tarmogoyf

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
3,003
Location
My house, NM
adumbrodeus said:
But yea, time warp is madd broken, but you know what's even more broken? Memory Jar, 60% 1 turn kill decks ftw!
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Meh, try huk flash years later. 92% turn 1.

Bowyer said:
Wizards had no ****ing clue what they were doing at the start of MTG XD
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LOL, yeah, it's ok to print this stuff, since noone will actually buy it. It's just for something to do in between rounds of DND.
 
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