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Character Competitive Impressions

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Real Smooth-Like

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I keep beating bad things about Mewtwo and how his weight and frame holds him back significantly and that his power and attacks aren't enough to compensate. If you had to give any buffs to :4mewtwo: BESIDES weight and other attributes to make him more viable compared to the rest of the cast, what would you give him?

If it were me, I'd give him even more power to make him a true glass cannon and beef up all of his throws, damage, and knockback similar to Ganondorf. He's extremely powerful in Pokemon, so it shouldn't be completely out of the question to boost up his power. If Sakurai insists on making him lightweight, he should be heavyweight power to compensate.
Don't know why they made him light... He's supposed to be heavier than Charizard
 

A_Kae

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I keep beating bad things about Mewtwo and how his weight and frame holds him back significantly and that his power and attacks aren't enough to compensate. If you had to give any buffs to :4mewtwo: BESIDES weight and other attributes to make him more viable compared to the rest of the cast, what would you give him?

If it were me, I'd give him even more power to make him a true glass cannon and beef up all of his throws, damage, and knockback similar to Ganondorf. He's extremely powerful in Pokemon, so it shouldn't be completely out of the question to boost up his power. If Sakurai insists on making him lightweight, he should be heavyweight power to compensate.
Mewtwo's base stats in pokémon, for anyone that's curious:

HP: 106
ATK: 110
DEF: 90
SATK: 154
SDEF: 90
SPE: 130

If you don't know pokémon, mewtwo is really fast and hits really hard.

Basically, changing mewtwo to hit much harder like the quoted post suggests, and increasing speed, would be great buffs to mewtwo, with the added bonus of being true to source material.

Edit: Also Charizard weighs 199.5 pounds and has a weight value 115. Mewtwo weights 269 pounds and has a weight value of 72.

Now how does that make sense.
 
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A_Kae

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Mewtwo uses "Psychic Power" to levitate, which makes him lighter. Or whatever the in game tip says.
Yeah, I know. But if mewtwo can use TK to levitate, he can use it to hold himself down.

But this is getting a bit off topic on 'Character Competitive Impressions'
 

FullMoon

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Honestly it makes less sense for a skinny alien thing to weight more than a freaking dragon, scales and all.

There's no way Mewtwo can actually weight 269.0 lbs.

He should at best be a little heavier than Lucario, at worst a bit heavier than Greninja.

His weight in both series is pretty dumb.
 

A_Kae

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Honestly it makes less sense for a skinny alien thing to weight more than a freaking dragon, scales and all.

There's no way Mewtwo can actually weight 269.0 lbs.

He should at best be a little heavier than Lucario, at worst a bit heavier than Greninja.

His weight in both series is pretty dumb.
To be fair, mewtwo is also a foot taller than charizard. 6 Feet 7 Inches vs 5 Feet 7 Inches. Not enough to make that kind of difference though.

But do we really want to pretend that pokémon weights make sense?

Also, for completions sake;

Lucario is 3 Feet 11 Inches and 119 pounds (smash weight 99)
Greninja is 4 Feet 11 Inches and 88.2 Pounds (smash weight 94)
Pikachu is 1 Foot 4 Inches and 13.2 Pounds (smash weight 79)
Jigglypuff is 1 Foot 8 Inches and 12.1 Pounds (smash weight 68)
 
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Smog Frog

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Honestly it makes less sense for a skinny alien thing to weight more than a freaking dragon, scales and all.

There's no way Mewtwo can actually weight 269.0 lbs.

He should at best be a little heavier than Lucario, at worst a bit heavier than Greninja.

His weight in both series is pretty dumb.
u seen them thighs tho
 

Emblem Lord

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Ike is the best FE character.

Roy is overrated but still good. He is simply easy to get results with and has a few moves that are crazy.

Marth is scary legit now. I fear he will be nerfed same as Roy. Blazer so good.
 

Spinosaurus

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Mewtwo is deliberately overpowered in Pokemon, the very first in fact. (and there's his mega, but we get to mega rayquaza as well lol) Smash is actually trying to balance things. I'd rather a bad character than one that was designed to overwhelm everyone lol.
 

A_Kae

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Mewtwo is deliberately overpowered in Pokemon, the very first in fact. (and there's his mega, but we get to mega rayquaza as well lol) Smash is actually trying to balance things. I'd rather a bad character than one that was designed to overwhelm everyone lol.
Mewtwo doesn't have to be über tier like it is in competitive pokémon, but having it be actually good would be nice.
 
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Zelder

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Watching CEO, I realize I'm really glad for all the patch changes. Because if we hadn't gotten patches, this doubles tournament would be 70% Diddy and Shiek. And singles tomorrow would be even worse.
 

san.

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Ike + Mac is hype, but I don't think it's very good unfortunately. Ike can't babysit Mac very easily like say Jigglypuff + Mac. Ike is best with speedy + self-reliant characters that can also hit hard like Sonic and Pikachu. Ryo just couldn't get Tyrant off of Sol's Mac.

I think Ike and Mac are both great doubles characters, though.
 

Radical Larry

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Mac and Ganondorf would be good doubles characters. Speedy and SA oriented, plus slow and yet powerful and high attack speed oriented. That'd be a commitment to play, but otherwise, it'd be a cool thing to see in doubles. Both have those somewhat speedy Smashes and both can get early KO's, too, so there's that.

What's the worst Doubles Team? My vote is Palutena and Zelda. Anyone?
 

FullMoon

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To be fair, mewtwo is also a foot taller than charizard. 6 Feet 7 Inches vs 5 Feet 7 Inches. Not enough to make that kind of difference though.

But do we really want to pretend that pokémon weights make sense?

Also, for completions sake;

Lucario is 3 Feet 11 Inches and 119 pounds (smash weight 99)
Greninja is 4 Feet 11 Inches and 88.2 Pounds (smash weight 94)
Pikachu is 1 Foot 4 Inches and 13.2 Pounds (smash weight 79)
Jigglypuff is 1 Foot 8 Inches and 12.1 Pounds (smash weight 68)
The weight of the others make sense overall, remember that Lucario is a Steel type so him weighting more than Greninja who's supposed to be a light and mobile species makes sense even if he's one foot taller.

It's just Mewtwo that doesn't make any sense.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Mac and Ganondorf would be good doubles characters. Speedy and SA oriented, plus slow and yet powerful and high attack speed oriented. That'd be a commitment to play, but otherwise, it'd be a cool thing to see in doubles. Both have those somewhat speedy Smashes and both can get early KO's, too, so there's that.

What's the worst Doubles Team? My vote is Palutena and Zelda. Anyone?
Ganondorf and LM would have the same issues as Ike and LM, but worse because Ganondorf is less mobile and has less range.
 

A_Kae

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The weight of the others make sense overall, remember that Lucario is a Steel type so him weighting more than Greninja who's supposed to be a light and mobile species makes sense even if he's one foot taller.

It's just Mewtwo that doesn't make any sense.
I was talking about pokémon weight in general, not the ones in smash, which are on the more reasonable side except for mewtwo. Registeel, I think is a bit on the light side for example.

Edit: As for bad doubles teams, samus+zelda would be bad imo, mainly just because those characters are so bad rather than having bad synergy or whatever. Samus or zelda plus any other character wouldn't be a very good doubles team either.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Mac and Ganondorf would be good doubles characters. Speedy and SA oriented, plus slow and yet powerful and high attack speed oriented. That'd be a commitment to play, but otherwise, it'd be a cool thing to see in doubles. Both have those somewhat speedy Smashes and both can get early KO's, too, so there's that.

What's the worst Doubles Team? My vote is Palutena and Zelda. Anyone?
Mii swordsman and Character X.
 

Man Li Gi

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So Doc. Doc has a plethora of killing moves and a decent projectile that doesn't cause ff.

Why is he the worst then (when I say worst, I'm tying him with Samus and Zelda for worst here)? Being a clone of Mario means you have the inherent pros (awesome frame data) and cons ( poor range and very linear recovery). What made Mario good in this game is the notably increase in his overall mobility, a consistent almost brain dead amount of combos, low committal kills yada, yada, yada.

Fireballs compared to pills are superior as Mario's mobility allows bobbing and weaving while also gaining followups, but for Doc, pills allow him to be punished, even on hit.

Doc plays like a heavy, but doesn't even really get the same advantages that other heavies have (better weight, better range, better killing moves). Most of the time, you find yourself soaking hits only to get a couple off and then invariably die due to having a poor recovery like other heavies have. What boggles my mind is that Doc has been made slower and weaker than his Melee iteration. Almost of his former kill have less KB and KBG while dealing less damage. At least now, he has a semi consistent combo game that racks damage up (uair is a god send), but when it comes to finish them off, what do you do? I mean, you have low range dsmash, you got slow fsmash, you have strange angle usmash, then you have suicide fair, then you have (free to punish me ) bair. The way I see it, Doc has 2 kill moves: utilt (yes it kills), and upb. Other characters that have problem finishing people off have a strong keep away game (Pac) or just is lagless (Sheik). Doc also has no offstage game bar cape or pills because everything else does put him in an awful position. You say bair is good....too low range and it sex kicks, so unless your opponent never airdodges, the weak hit is all you get.

With Doc, you find yourself very grounded for fear to expend your second jump to chase someone only to be knocked off and forced to downb to upb. If someone wants to play footsies with you on the ground, you could win.....only if they stay close enough to see your diploma otherwise, he's still not that great. You find yourself playing desperate for grabs as that is really your only way to rack damage up quickly because Pills are punishable and he has 2 or 3 aerial moves with only 1 of them doing substantial damage.

Sure Doc does have more tools than Samus and Zelda in his coat, but the crushing med school loan debts seem to be slowing him down. At least Samus has some offstage presence and controls the space around herself decently. Zelda....well you know.
 

Smog Frog

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:4zelda: is DOPE in doubles. her kit doesnt work well in singles, but its practically tailor made for doubles/ffas.
 

thehard

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G&W/Sheik looking mighty bannable at the moment :yeahboi:
 
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NairWizard

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Ganondorf + Little Mac looks great until you realize that Ganondorf KOs Little Mac in the process of rescuing him offstage.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Thoron isn't threatening? A full-screen projectile that travels fast and kills at reasonable percents with rage isn't threatening? A move that just completely stops the opponent from dedicating to any option in mid to long range is not threatening?

Arcthunder doesn't inspire respect? A solid projectile that just locks you in shield if you get caught in it? A projectile that into pretty much anything Robin wants and if it hits you guarantees Robin at least 20% in damage doesn't demand respect?

I'm actually at a loss for words here. Like, there's a lot of basic stuff that Robin does that it seems that most people in this thread don't know about, but people are going to talk as if they know what Robin can do and say that Robin's bad, so they're going to end up being buffed when they don't really need it.
Given how slow Arcthunder is when Robin first fires it, how do you propose to hit anyone with it beyond point blank? And maybe it's just my own inexperience showing through on this point, but what can Robin do against someone shielding Arcthunder? Every time I try I'm too ****ing slow to get there in time for anything meaningful.

And yes, Thoron is a fullscreen punish option that I don't think anyone wants to get hit by on purpose. It's also less powerful than Charge Shot/Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball (and Arcthunder) and can only be used thrice in a row at most before being locked away for...I think 10 seconds? In exchange...you can charge it in the air. *finger twirl* My point is that for what it is (a bigass lightning beam you have to charge for several seconds) it's really underwhelming.
 
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Speed Boost

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Mewtwo's base stats in pokémon, for anyone that's curious:

HP: 106
ATK: 110
DEF: 90
SATK: 154
SDEF: 90
SPE: 130

If you don't know pokémon, mewtwo is really fast and hits really hard.

Basically, changing mewtwo to hit much harder like the quoted post suggests, and increasing speed, would be great buffs to mewtwo, with the added bonus of being true to source material.

Edit: Also Charizard weighs 199.5 pounds and has a weight value 115. Mewtwo weights 269 pounds and has a weight value of 72.

Now how does that make sense.
I understand that when compared to the source material it doesn't make much sense. That said, I feel like they did a great job of bringing Mewtwo to life in a way that feels true to his character. I would not be opposed to making him a little heavier(like bottom of the middleweights, top of the lightweights), but other than that I wouldn't really change anything. Well, maybe make down throw forward air a combo at low percents.
 

Radical Larry

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Ganondorf and LM would have the same issues as Ike and LM, but worse because Ganondorf is less mobile and has less range.
In the battle of range, Ganondorf has some moves that are actually longer ranged than Ike's, and a lot more that are dangerous, and yet overall faster than, Ike's. U-Smash is an example of both; while it doesn't have the whole arc, it does have more vertical range and can be input faster with more damage.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Overall, Ganondorf has less range, and significantly less mobility. That's what's important. The inability to save LM from characters like MK was the issue for the Ike + LM team. Ganondorf is even worse at saving LM from MK than Ike is. Therefor, its a lessor team.
 

irokex13

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Given how slow Arcthunder is when Robin first fires it, how do you propose to hit anyone with it beyond point blank? And maybe it's just my own inexperience showing through on this point, but what can Robin do against someone shielding Arcthunder? Every time I try I'm too ****ing slow to get there in time for anything meaningful.

And yes, Thoron is a fullscreen punish option that I don't think anyone wants to get hit by on purpose. It's also less powerful than Charge Shot/Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball (and Arcthunder) and can only be used thrice in a row at most before being locked away for...I think 10 seconds? In exchange...you can charge it in the air. *finger twirl* My point is that for what it is (a bigass lightning beam you have to charge for several seconds) it's really underwhelming.
Snipe them offstage, catch someone approaching incorrectly, try to trap their landing... It's a flexible projectile, you can find multiple ways to use it.

Robin's mobility is also greatly exaggerated. Yes, they have the worst run speed, but their aerial mobility is actually pretty good. You know what else is good? Aerial Arcfire. You know what deals a ton of shield damage? Arcthunder and Arcfire. I'm pretty sure you see where I'm going with this.

Also, I'm honestly tired of people saying that Robin's weapon limit is a weakness for them. "I'll just wait until they run out of Arcfires and rush them down." No you won't. Not when I have a projectile that deals 18% when thrown, deal a ton of shield damage, and can be regrabbed if it hits a shield. And the longer you wait, the more time you're wasting until Robin's weapon regenerates. The tomes are a really big deal.
 

Emblem Lord

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Snipe them offstage, catch someone approaching incorrectly, try to trap their landing... It's a flexible projectile, you can find multiple ways to use it.

Robin's mobility is also greatly exaggerated. Yes, they have the worst run speed, but their aerial mobility is actually pretty good. You know what else is good? Aerial Arcfire. You know what deals a ton of shield damage? Arcthunder and Arcfire. I'm pretty sure you see where I'm going with this.

Also, I'm honestly tired of people saying that Robin's weapon limit is a weakness for them. "I'll just wait until they run out of Arcfires and rush them down." No you won't. Not when I have a projectile that deals 18% when thrown, deal a ton of shield damage, and can be regrabbed if it hits a shield. And the longer you wait, the more time you're wasting until Robin's weapon regenerates. The tomes are a really big deal.
Robin isn't good.

Refute me with evidence. Not opinion.
 

Sinister Slush

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It feels both nice and horrible that Diddy can only spam fair now.
Horrible cause that move is still dumb as hell.

Also through out all the huge regional or national tournaments, Villager is always on one of the top teams. Not too sure what's the true broken doubles character though.
Villager Ness or Game n watch, I lean on Villager and his/her silliness they can do.
 

Speed Boost

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It feels both nice and horrible that Diddy can only spam fair now.
Horrible cause that move is still dumb as hell.

Also through out all the huge regional or national tournaments, Villager is always on one of the top teams. Not too sure what's the true broken doubles character though.
Villager Ness or Game n watch, I lean on Villager and his/her silliness they can do.
Yes, let's nerf Diddy until he has no viable options at all. In fact lets nerf all the good characters until they are bad and nobody wants to play the game anymore. Be careful what you wish for, we finally got a game with some offensive gameplay after the nightmare that Brawl was.

Diddy has been reduced to a high tier let's leave him alone for a while. This game has as much balance as any fighting game I've ever seen. Can we be happy with what we have for a while?
 

irokex13

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Robin isn't good.

Refute me with evidence. Not opinion.
First of all, how do you expect me to have a discussion when you start with that? The burden of proof isn't on me because you haven't come up with any kind of argument at all.

Both Nairo and Trela have shown that Robin is capable, with Nairo putting Robin in his top 25, pre Lucas patch. Just because a character is unpopular doesn't mean that they're bad.
 

Emblem Lord

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Top 25?

Bruh.

That's just another way of saying average, but still not good.

I didn't say he wasn't capable. Slayer in GGXrd was bottom tier before the patch and he still performed well in tournies because the game is so balanced. I feel this game has a close level of balance between characters.

Doesn't mean average characters still don't exist.

And the burden of proof was on you the moment you felt inclined to defend Robin.

I await your rebuttal good sir.
 

Rashyboy05

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So having watched today's CEO Smash 4 doubles. Seeing ZeRo still using Diddy is pretty surprising considering people keeps saying that ZeRo only uses top tiers. I'm wondering how Diddy fares with the metagame now that he has been nerfed a lot.
 
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