Character Competitive Impressions

[Sinister Slush]

I wonder if Luigis started to spam theirs like Diddy too?

But wait. SH height.

They spam all their aerials and get rewarded, don't worry he'll have his turn.

.

I felt obligated to say something but then realized you joined just recently so nvm.

 

[irokex13]

Top 25?

Bruh.

That's just another way of saying average, but still not good.

I didn't say he wasn't capable. Slayer in GGXrd was bottom tier before the patch and he still performed well in tournies because the game is so balanced. I feel this game has a close level of balance between characters.

Doesn't mean average characters still don't exist.

And the burden of proof was on you the moment you felt inclined to defend Robin.

I await your rebuttal good sir.

I'm not saying Robin is some sleeper top tier. I just want people to know that Robin is far from the worst character in the game.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm not saying Robin is some sleeper top tier. I just want people to know that Robin is far from the worst character in the game.

Emblem Lord didn't say Robin was bad; he said "Robin isn't good". That leaves average, mediocre, underwhelming, decent, fine, fair, bad, horrible, the worst, and plenty of more adjectives. If Emblem Lord straight up said Robin was ***, then there's nothing open.

 

[Djent]

Aaand Vanish Bucket wins another stacked tourney. Jank ass doubles strats.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Mii swordsman and Character X.

The Trela match unintentionally showcased a very potent move:

Pocketed Gale Strike launches people into ****ing space.

So no, Mii Sword GS + Villager would probably be insane.

 

[Goesasu]

robin is just unexplored just like shulk.

Having no online celebrities doesnt make a character bad just unexplored. I dont like to talk about me, but im a hell of a shulk player but i just dont post online because i dont want or need the online attention but for that kind of thing people dont know how good shulk truly is. They look his frame data and say mmmmm bad and thats all but once you practice with him he will truly shine. Robin is no exception.

 

[Nobie]

A few things:

First, when it comes to Roy, I feel like a lot of his hype comes not only from being DLC but also that he has a lot of Melee-esque attributes. Nimble with good run and jump speed, combos like crazy, fast falls, even the bad recovery is more Melee style than anything else. All of the people who complain that Smash 4 is too campy, well now they have their character (though that's not saying only impatient people like or prefer to play Roy).

Second, I think Roy is like a reverse swordsman. That might sound kind of obvious given his un-tipper mechanic, but I feel like Roy does well against characters that normally are good at fighting swordsmen because he has similar mobility but with the added benefit of a sword (albeit weak at the tip), but the closer sweetspot also means he might have issues against his fellow Swordsmen because they win at sword's length. Like, Marth is an obvious one, but I think even Lucina gives Roy reason to pause. Unlike Marth vs. Lucina where, if both fight at ideal range, then Marth has the edge, Lucina puts up a good fight at close range and has the edge at long range. Also, while it's been pointed out that Roy's f-smash is longer than Marcina, if Roy whiffs an f-smash he falls right in range of an f-smash from them instead.

Meta Knight vs. Roy is potentially an interesting matchup. MK's short range does no favors against Roy's ideal range, but Roy's bad recovery is exactly the kind of thing that makes MK players salivate.

Third, I think Mewtwo isn't nearly as bad as people say, but if I had to make one change to the character it would be to make M2 not slide so danged much when shielding. Mewtwo's throws are so vital to its game that having to perfect shield everything in order to properly block grab most of the time is a complete pain. Luigi suffers from the same thing too and doesn't have nearly as high mobility as Mewtwo, but it's always a bit sad to try to block-grab with Mewtwo and realize you've slid just far enough to miss.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Aaand Vanish Bucket wins another stacked tourney. Jank *** doubles strats.

Dude, wait till the meta gets further into its life cycle. This happened all the time in early dubs Brawl. Maybe it's me, but I don't stare at the current meta, but where meta will and can go. This strat will be exploited and (ab)used until a justifiable counter measure is taken (remember the Anubis and Omni strat from Brawl?).

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Djent I can't believe that's a truly viable strategy. Seriously, Game and Watch got an instant zero-to-death read off Ness' PK Thunder attack. And it was just one hit with 55% damage across the stage! That's a dangerous move in doubles. Anti and Mr. R proved that you can't doubt Game and Watch, or else you get an instant death.

 

[BiRdZ]

I'm surprised no one said anything about Jigglypuff being a good doubles partner. Multiple jumps to help save your teammate offstage and the fact that she can punish laggy moves with rest and end stocks very quickly.

And about CEO doubles, I honestly thought HungryBox wouldn't do that well, but i think he surprised everyone, even going 1 v 1 with Dabuz!

 

[Balgorxz]

I'm surprised no one said anything about Jigglypuff being a good doubles partner. Multiple jumps to help save your teammate offstage and the fact that she can punish laggy moves with rest and end stocks very quickly.

And about CEO doubles, I honestly thought HungryBox wouldn't do that well, but i think he surprised everyone, even going 1 v 1 with Dabuz!

he's okay at doubles, but it was mostly hbox there is no way you will find another player with enough jiggs and doubles fundamentals to repeat a team like that.
puff dies at 80% and that is not something you like on doubles

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So having watched today's CEO Smash 4 doubles. Seeing ZeRo still using Diddy is pretty surprising considering people keeps saying that ZeRo only uses top tiers. I'm wondering how Diddy fares with the metagame now that he has been nerfed a lot.

Doubles is different. They were using banana -> rest a lot.

 

[Ulevo]

Honestly it makes less sense for a skinny alien thing to weight more than a freaking dragon, scales and all.

There's no way Mewtwo can actually weight 269.0 lbs.

He should at best be a little heavier than Lucario, at worst a bit heavier than Greninja.

His weight in both series is pretty dumb.

I know this is off topic but I just wanted to mention that his weight is very realistic. Skeletal muscle accounts for roughly half our body weight as humans for an average person. To give an example, I am 5'10, 180 lbs without being overweight or overly muscular. Not only are animals often leaner than humans, particularly ones higher on the trophic levels, but even for a human I have seen men who are 6'2-6'3 and around 230 lbs without being overweight. Mewtwo is 6'7 and really lean, but he also has a huge tail that is not really factored when considering just his height.

 

[Djent]

Dude, wait till the meta gets further into its life cycle. This happened all the time in early dubs Brawl. Maybe it's me, but I don't stare at the current meta, but where meta will and can go. This strat will be exploited and (ab)used until a justifiable counter measure is taken (remember the Anubis and Omni strat from Brawl?).

We already know the counterplay to Vanish Bucket. It's the same as the counterplay to any doubles strat that exploits Team Attack being on: apply constant pressure, and preferably avoid dying or getting knocked offstage. But unlike healing strats, where the cost of screwing up is a minor-to-moderate setback, the cost of screwing up vs. Vanish Bucket is being forced to play an entirely different game. It's a game where the reward variable gets cranked through the roof, where simple throw combos and Sheik fair strings can end in death from 0%. In the past, bucket mechanics forced G&W (and permitted his opponents) to "panic slowly." But that's gone now, and we can now see the absurdly large low-risk benefit it confers.

 

[C0rvus]

Robin isn't good.

Refute me with evidence. Not opinion.

Robin player here, or ex-Robin player? Idk, it's complicated. I can confirm that Robin is bad. I was playing on FG (this is how all good stories start, right?) and decided to pick up Robin again for a few matches. I am promptly paired up with a pretty decent Link, and the match has very little lag. We play and it seems we are of a similar skill level, perhaps I'm a bit better. I slowly begin to realize that Link's kit is almost all-around better than Robin's. More range on his ground moves, runs faster, more consistent projectiles, better grab with actual throw combos now. Recovery might be a little worse and his aerials aren't as good, but he fills the archetype arguably all-around better than Robin.

Link outclasses Robin completely.

This is a depressing revelation. Sometimes I hate this game.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Robin player here, or ex-Robin player? Idk, it's complicated. I can confirm that Robin is bad. I was playing on FG (this is how all good stories start, right?) and decided to pick up Robin again for a few matches. I am promptly paired up with a pretty decent Link, and the match has very little lag. We play and it seems we are of a similar skill level, perhaps I'm a bit better. I slowly begin to realize that Link's kit is almost all-around better than Robin's. More range on his ground moves, runs faster, more consistent projectiles, better grab with actual throw combos now. Recovery might be a little worse and his aerials aren't as good, but he fills the archetype arguably all-around better than Robin.

Link outclasses Robin completely.

This is a depressing revelation. Sometimes I hate this game.

link can't heal, juggle, or avoid attacks like robin can (floaty character).

 

[TriTails]

Nairo putting Robin in his top 25, pre Lucas patch.

Dude. You do know Lucas patch buffed a lot of characters right? Marth went from 'pretty meh' to 'OMG' by just a simple jab angle alterations. Robin got nothing but a bugfix. Ike was also significantly buffed (But now that I think about it. Let's change 'Better nerf Greninja' to 'Better buff Ike'), and other characters also went the same thing Marth goes (Link's D-throw and grab buffs, example).

They spam all their aerials and get rewarded, don't worry he'll have his turn.

Not really when F-air got 22 frames of freaking landing lag, B-air and N-air can only be used once during one shorthop, and the only good landing lag Luigi has is U-air, which is 10 frames.

But SHFF F-air auto-cancels .

Speaking of Vanish Bucket, Lucario + Villager, etc janky doubles. I wonder if Luigi can fire his Fireballs constantly to G&W Bucket and get it filled in no time?

And hey, a bucket breaks shields and deals ridiculous damage and knockback. The reason why Luigi must not use Fireballs for like 95% of the Luigi vs G&W MU.

link can't heal, juggle, or avoid attacks like robin can (floaty character).

What. Link's U-air is EVIL when juggling. The hitbox stays out longer than a millenia that you can follow people's airdodges and still hit them with the same U-air.

 

[irokex13]

Emblem Lord didn't say Robin was bad; he said "Robin isn't good". That leaves average, mediocre, underwhelming, decent, fine, fair, bad, horrible, the worst, and plenty of more adjectives. If Emblem Lord straight up said Robin was ***, then there's nothing open.

That message isn't targeted at him. It's towards the last couple of pages where people have been saying a lot straight up false things about Robin.

@Vincent21

@ FullMoon Robin has probably the worst mobility in the game, and a projectile game that would make Palutena seem like her goddess self again. And couple in the gimmicky moveset and hard learning curve, Robin might seem not as viable as others.

Robin's pretty effective for being "the worst character". Not too far behind Ganon in terms of raw punish strength. Great edgeguards. Spacing normals by all means are practical even if none of them really do anything in midrange. Thoron once fully charged is able to force people to play more carefully even at long range and Robin can hit confirm into early kills with both Arcfire and Arcthunder. Even benefits from item tossing (can kill people with it) and has a command grab!

But yeah, Robin's weaknesses compared to other characters are just really, really obvious and glaring. Especially the weak midrange and bad recovery. Several characters can just camp or rush him down and he doesn't really have ways to control people in midrange to discourage that reliably other than getting Thoron charged.

thats true for like every character though lmao

realtalk who does reflet even beat

 

[TriTails]

Robin DOES have a bad recovery. It makes Luigi's D-air spike look like Falcon's. No hitbox above him, you are free to hit him with any move of your choice. Should be no discussions about that.

 

[Ulevo]

Ike is the best FE character.

Roy is overrated but still good. He is simply easy to get results with and has a few moves that are crazy.

Marth is scary legit now. I fear he will be nerfed same as Roy. Blazer so good.

Where exactly would you put these characters, tier wise. What other characters would you say represent their current level of power, tier wise? I am hearing high tier, but I am skeptical and would enjoy some explanations as to why. Marth is clearly better and Ike received some attention, but from my observations they still seem to have glaring issues. I will admit that Roy might drop off in flavor eventually but he seems to be easily the best Fire Emblem contender from my immediate observations.

 

[wedl!!]

how is me asking who reflet beats making a false statement wtf that doesnt even make sense

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Robin is just bad. And it's not because his moves are bad, he has plenty of really good moves, it's just he's TOO SLOW to do anything with them.

And no, that air speed is not helping alleviate his run speed that is slower than 22 characters walks.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Remember, Japan has seen their fair share of VanishBucket in doubles. I wouldn't be surprised if they altered something about the strategy so it doesn't continue to dominate the top level doubles meta. They could nerf bucket release, sheik, vanish, or they could make it so that you couldn't bucket vanish.

Or they could buff Ike

 

[FullMoon]

If next patch they make Vanish significantly weaker because of that combo I'm going to laugh so much.

One by one Sheik's kill moves shall go down.

 

[Ikes]

Ike + Mac is hype, but I don't think it's very good unfortunately. Ike can't babysit Mac very easily like say Jigglypuff + Mac. Ike is best with speedy + self-reliant characters that can also hit hard like Sonic and Pikachu. Ryo just couldn't get Tyrant off of Sol's Mac.

I think Ike and Mac are both great doubles characters, though.

How would Villager and Little Mac look?
villager has a lot of setups that could lead to a guaranteed KO punch, and having one player trap and pester with projectiles while the other plays a defensive pressuring game and punishes bad decisions up close seems like an incredibly powerful dynamic.

 

[Man Li Gi]

We already know the counterplay to Vanish Bucket. It's the same as the counterplay to any doubles strat that exploits Team Attack being on: apply constant pressure, and preferably avoid dying or getting knocked offstage. But unlike healing strats, where the cost of screwing up is a minor-to-moderate setback, the cost of screwing up vs. Vanish Bucket is being forced to play an entirely different game. It's a game where the reward variable gets cranked through the roof, where simple throw combos and Sheik fair strings can end in death from 0%. In the past, bucket mechanics forced G&W (and permitted his opponents) to "panic slowly." But that's gone now, and we can now see the absurdly large low-risk benefit it confers.

Ok, the Omni strat from Brawl (MK or Kirby up throw then Snake C4 bomb at the top of the blast zone) is way easier and was one of the reasons Ally and M2K destroyed in teams early on. I don't know what you mean in the past games his opponents were permitted to panic slowly as there is more lag is using it here and had more invincibility in the previous games. Unless you're referring to how certain attacks can 2 bar fill the bucket. Even then, this strat will be a strong tool in dubs meta, but not the end all be "jank" that you want to refer it as. To me, if you can't beat it, it's your fault as you should be prepared for it.

 

[san.]

How would Villager and Little Mac look?
villager has a lot of setups that could lead to a guaranteed KO punch, and having one player trap and pester with projectiles while the other plays a defensive pressuring game and punishes bad decisions up close seems like an incredibly powerful dynamic.

I played that team before and villager needs to switch up his style a lot to prevent Mac from getting double teamed. Villager can't take his time offstage or at the edge.

Little Mac does well with aerial fighters and throw support characters. I like Mac and Jigglypuff since she can stay completely out of his way.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Where exactly would you put these characters, tier wise. What other characters would you say represent their current level of power, tier wise? I am hearing high tier, but I am skeptical and would enjoy some explanations as to why. Marth is clearly better and Ike received some attention, but from my observations they still seem to have glaring issues. I will admit that Roy might drop off in flavor eventually but he seems to be easily the best Fire Emblem contender from my immediate observations.

Name any char that Roy beats that Marth doesnt beat. Name a match thats bad for Marth that isn't worse for Roy.

Marth does better in all their bad matches. His disadvantage is better as is his recovery. Sheik wrecks them both but Roy can't attack like EVER, cept off a hard read or punish.

What are Marth's issues? What keeps him from playing his actual game cuz honestly...I don't see anything.

Do not be blinded by Roy's reward. He NEEDS that reward to justify his flaws.

Honestly I rate all 3 of them as high tier but Marth and Ike are close and Roy drops off a bit. Probably a little weaker then CF. Around there for all 3 of them. You say Marth has issues but if the man gets anything else he will go over that edge of being OP. Ike has mobility issues so Sakurai can give more buffs and it wouldnt break him. Marth has just enough mobility that making him safer or faster on his attacks will just make him Brawl Marth again with no MK or IC's to check his power.

Marth now has the following buffs compared to his release back in October

+ F-tilt frame data now equal to Brawl version
+ Dancing Blade adjusted to suck opponents in better and combo more consistently
+ Invincibility on Dolphin Slash from start-up to first hitting frame. Knockback also increased. Close to Brawl version knockback
+ Buffed jab leading to mix-ups or confirming into itself. Fairly safe when spaced well. Can create very easy traps with jab to d-tilt or jab to shff nair
+ U-tilt more hitstun. Now safe on hit even at low percents
+ Landing recovery reduced on Nair from 15 frames to 12 frames

He got some nerfs too though to compensate

- More hitlag on Crescent Slash. Probably felt Marth should not have a strong defensive tool and combo tool. Seems Sakurai wants this move just for combos only. Doing it OoS now is an easier punish
- Jab got more cooldown to compensate for the amazing buff it received. A smart tradeoff.

So what is he lacking? Grab confirms? So basically you want Marth to be the only FE rep to matter? I didn't realize you were so fond of the Hero-king.

He regained functionality on all his attacks save d-smash, which he really doesn't need anyway. Then he received the jab buff which is easily top 3 buffs thus far in the games life span. Then the Nair buff and the DS buff are icing on the cake. Marth is now a defensive powerhouse again. Hit his shield and expect to eat 11% unless your spacing is perfect.

He loses to Sheik, ZSS, Link and uhhhhhhhhh

Uhhhhhhh

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMM

Olimar? maaaaaaaybe?

 

[Speed Boost]

They spam all their aerials and get rewarded, don't worry he'll have his turn.

I felt obligated to say something but then realized you joined just recently so nvm.

What am I missing? Are you saying you are gonna "take it easy" on me cause i'm a nub? Thanks, I'm not sure I could have handled your opinion written in out in words on an internet video game forum. I'm very afraid of being humiliated in public. Please forgive me. You are right, I'm wrong.

 

[Blobface]

On the subject of doubles teams: I'd imagine Ganondorf would be amazing with a support character like Sheik and Villager that can make up for his safety problems. He should probably never be used as a supporting character.

Ganon's version of "saving you" is making you die faster so you don't suffer as long.

 

[Centicerise]

Given how slow Arcthunder is when Robin first fires it, how do you propose to hit anyone with it beyond point blank? And maybe it's just my own inexperience showing through on this point, but what can Robin do against someone shielding Arcthunder? Every time I try I'm too ****ing slow to get there in time for anything meaningful.




And yes, Thoron is a fullscreen punish option that I don't think anyone wants to get hit by on purpose. It's also less powerful than Charge Shot/Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball (and Arcthunder) and can only be used thrice in a row at most before being locked away for...I think 10 seconds? In exchange...you can charge it in the air. *finger twirl* My point is that for what it is (a bigass lightning beam you have to charge for several seconds) it's really underwhelming.

I think what you're really missing about Robin's kit is how versatile it is. Neutral B has four variants that each serve their own useful function-- it's all about knowing how to apply each variant properly to bring out its strength. It's easiest to understand the power of options that Robin's neutral b lends itself to when compared with other similar charge neutral specials.


Thunder: Compared to spamming other uncharged neutral b’s like charge shot or shadow ball, thunder has a faster cast speed and the fastest travel speed at the cost of less range. This makes it superior at surprise disruptions and general harassment when utilized properly.


This uncharged variant shows its value most when Robin controls center stage. Its range is just enough that it reaches the edge from the center of vanilla maps like SV or DF.


Thunder’s strength is being able to quickly reach out at any time to stop an opponent from pressing buttons. It’s very good at stuffing characters who have poor dash to shields. Exerting its presence can often be enough to pressure opponents into the air where Robin’s Levin aerials shine.


Elthunder: This variant takes ¾ of a second to charge and is very powerful if you use it in the right scenarios. Catching tech chases, landings, and pressuring an offstage opponent into a spot where you can follow up are the situations where it really shines. Landing this on an offstage opponent puts them at the mercy of Robin’s fearsome gimping and spiking game (Nair, dair and elwind, the last of which can spike and stage spike if you face outward from the stage).


Arcthunder: People often dismiss the usefulness of this move which is a shame because it’s a special and one of kind move that is unbelievably useful. Common complaints are how slow it is, which baffles me, because that’s the main reason it’s so strong as a tool. Arcthunder’s slow initial speed is exactly what allows it to do it’s job effectively: control space. It has a huge hitbox, is slow and lingers, making it difficult to dodge or jump over and therefore often forces grounded opponents to shield. When spaced properly this creates a situation where Robin either gets a guaranteed grab or the opponent spot-dodges putting them at the mercy of a massive punish like an F-Smash, or rolls thereby losing stage control.


What people don’t seem to understand about this move is that it is NOT a long range tool. Arcthunder is a close quarter to midrange tool that essentially gives you temporary complete control of the space directly in front of you.


Besides it’s grounded application, it is absolutely amazing at catching aerial landings/approaches with very high reward on hit. Landed at certain distances you can follow up with grab/Dash attack (the most consistent option), Levin aerials and even fsmash.


Thoron: This is the fastest travelling and longest lingering charged b special in the game. Having fast travel speed, lingering hitboxes, and eating most projectiles in its path, it is the ultimate long range punish tool. Hitting a thoron on an opponent launches them long enough into the air that you can charge thunder right back up again. Thoron exerts massive pressure simply by being charged up. Thoron is a virtually guaranteed hit on any landing or careless commitment and its offstage applications are immense. Launching thoron at an offstage opponent will either result in them getting hit (and probably dying) or air dodging and recovering low (which puts them in an awful spot against Robin)— alternatively, if they recover high, Robin’s Levin aerials pose a huge threat.

Thoron’s most powerful application comes at cornering and pressuring an opponent at high percentages. There’s a lot of power to be found in simply the threat of the move.


Another thing people seem to not understand is how powerful Robin is when she has a discarded tome in her hand. It’s practically the strongest throwable item in the game that can be produced at consistent and predictable rates. Simply having a discarded book in your hand can yield thoron levels of pressure on the opponent.


Overall Robin is an option rich character with many tools that a smart player can thrive utilizing. The problem is she needs time and space to access many of those tools. That's why Robin's most oppressive matchups are characters who can rush her down or harass her effectively, thereby limiting those options. Regardless though I would not say Robin belongs anywhere but mid tier, and that’s mainly because she loses to a number of the popular current high tiers.

 

[Djent]

Ok, the Omni strat from Brawl (MK or Kirby up throw then Snake C4 bomb at the top of the blast zone) is way easier and was one of the reasons Ally and M2K destroyed in teams early on. I don't know what you mean in the past games his opponents were permitted to panic slowly as there is more lag is using it here and had more invincibility in the previous games. Unless you're referring to how certain attacks can 2 bar fill the bucket. Even then, this strat will be a strong tool in dubs meta, but not the end all be "jank" that you want to refer it as. To me, if you can't beat it, it's your fault as you should be prepared for it.

I don't remember the Omni strat factoring into M2K/Ally's dominance nearly as much as the fact that they were the two best players in the world circa 2009. If you have specific examples of matches/sets decided by Omni though, I'll concede this point.

"Panic slowly" was just a play on words.

I don't know if it will ever be the case that only Vanish Bucket teams can win. I expect other Sheik comps to be functional as well. You know, because she's arguably one of the (if not the) best doubles characters already. I also think Villager has a place, but his support capabilities are also borderline OP (not broken though). I expect doubles to evolve in an MvC2 direction; you have a few teams to pick from but 80% of the cast (or more) is nonviable. I'll happily eat these words if there are no nerfs and these narrow set of top tier strats remain beatable 1-2 years from now.

 

[Nu~]

Name any char that Roy beats that Marth doesnt beat. Name a match thats bad for Marth that isn't worse for Roy.

Marth does better in all their bad matches. His disadvantage is better as is his recovery. Sheik wrecks them both but Roy can't attack like EVER, cept off a hard read or punish.

What are Marth's issues? What keeps him from playing his actual game cuz honestly...I don't see anything.

Do not be blinded by Roy's reward. He NEEDS that reward to justify his flaws.

Honestly I rate all 3 of them as high tier but Marth and Ike are close and Roy drops off a bit. Probably a little weaker then CF. Around there for all 3 of them. You say Marth has issues but if the man gets anything else he will go over that edge of being OP. Ike has mobility issues so Sakurai can give more buffs and it wouldnt break him. Marth has just enough mobility that making him safer or faster on his attacks will just make him Brawl Marth again with no MK or IC's to check his power.

Marth now has the following buffs compared to his release back in October

+ F-tilt frame data now equal to Brawl version
+ Dancing Blade adjusted to suck opponents in better and combo more consistently
+ Invincibility on Dolphin Slash from start-up to first hitting frame. Knockback also increased. Close to Brawl version knockback
+ Buffed jab leading to mix-ups or confirming into itself. Fairly safe when spaced well. Can create very easy traps with jab to d-tilt or jab to shff nair
+ U-tilt more hitstun. Now safe on hit even at low percents
+ Landing recovery reduced on Nair from 15 frames to 12 frames

He got some nerfs too though to compensate

- More hitlag on Crescent Slash. Probably felt Marth should not have a strong defensive tool and combo tool. Seems Sakurai wants this move just for combos only. Doing it OoS now is an easier punish
- Jab got more cooldown to compensate for the amazing buff it received. A smart tradeoff.

So what is he lacking? Grab confirms? So basically you want Marth to be the only FE rep to matter? I didn't realize you were so fond of the Hero-king.

He regained functionality on all his attacks save d-smash, which he really doesn't need anyway. Then he received the jab buff which is easily top 3 buffs thus far in the games life span. Then the Nair buff and the DS buff are icing on the cake. Marth is now a defensive powerhouse again. Hit his shield and expect to eat 11% unless your spacing is perfect.

He loses to Sheik, ZSS, Link and uhhhhhhhhh

Uhhhhhhh

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMM

Olimar? maaaaaaaybe?

Why does he lose to link? I'm curious.

Also, how do you think Marth's fares against Pac-Man? Before his buffs, the matchup was ok because trampoline and hydrant traps kept him honest, but how do these buffs change the matchup?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What. Link's U-air is EVIL when juggling. The hitbox stays out longer than a millenia that you can follow people's airdodges and still hit them with the same U-air.

Too bad the hitbox is narrow and link moves as fast as hot air balloon in the air horizontally. Robin's Levin sword Uair is super disjointed and goes in a diddy-like arc. Add on with decent air mobility (iirc, don't hold me to it), and there's no way link can juggle better than robin.
EDIT: hey I was right. Robin is 0.1 slower than mega man. This means robin equals little Mac's air speed.

 

[Radical Larry]

Too bad the hitbox is narrow and link moves as fast as hot air balloon in the air horizontally. Robin's Levin sword Uair is super disjointed and goes in a diddy-like arc. Add on with decent air mobility (iirc, don't hold me to it), and there's no way link can juggle better than robin.

Actually, it's been easier for me to string up airs with Link than Robin, and Link's U-Air is more dangerous than Robin's, because if you lose the Levin Sword...there's no way Robin can juggle remotely better than Link. With Link's U-Air, he can't get punished at all by opponents from above, but characters like Link, Toon Link and Counter characters can punish Robin's U-Air. Even Ganondorf and Falcon with their D-Specs will punish Robin, but not Link.

Link's got longer range and better efficiency with his U-Air, and his tilts leading up into U-Air strings isn't going to help the opponent.

 

[LRodC]

For Robin, I don't think he's fast enough to keep up with the rest of the cast and like Mewtwo's weight, it kind of holds him back from being as good as he could be. I can understand why Thoron is as weak as it is. Don't forget that more than 2 players exist in this game and that a piercing projectile as strong as Shadow Ball may be pretty damn broken in a FFA or teams setting. If they had to make it that strong, it would have to have like one or two uses only to compensate or possibly a longer cool down for the spell book to come back.

If Robin is really one of the worst characters, that speaks well of this game's balance. Hopefully he gets some buffs in future patches.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Actually, it's been easier for me to string up airs with Link than Robin, and Link's U-Air is more dangerous than Robin's, because if you lose the Levin Sword...there's no way Robin can juggle remotely better than Link. With Link's U-Air, he can't get punished at all by opponents from above, but characters like Link, Toon Link and Counter characters can punish Robin's U-Air. Even Ganondorf and Falcon with their D-Specs will punish Robin, but not Link.

Link's got longer range and better efficiency with his U-Air, and his tilts leading up into U-Air strings isn't going to help the opponent.

Links Uair sticks out further, making it more disjointed. But you're talking about purely vertical juggled and strings. Robin's can do that, but he can also cover space ALL above him like diddy. I think this makes robin's Uair more versatile in ways it can juggle, as link sticks out like a short laser. Robin's is like a rainbow.
EDIT: I would also like to mention that I think it's hard to talk about robin's (or any underused character) viability with definite statements when soo much of his ( or their) meta is unexplored.

 

[CommanderRin]

I want to see what happens to Robin if Sakurai changes his air and ground speed or decreases end frames on ArcFire and Thunder casts.

 

[RonNewcomb]

So Fire Emblem tier is dead. Hyrule tier isn't a thing in this game. Overalls tier exists (Mario, Luigi, Wario are all high/top tier characters as of the time of this writing). Are there any other tier clusters in this game?

Blond girl tier is located just above gotta-go-fast tier, which is just above somewhere-middle-tierish tier.

Re: Robin's issues, he reminds me a lot of Brawl Link: projectiles supposed to make up for the bad frame data, a bad grab, bad CQC in general, in a game where projectiles can be airdodged, spotdodged, blocked, rolled through, and even punched out of the air. Even though he hits pretty hard, he's so gimpable, comboable, and pressure-able that his gameplan never really gels.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

@ Sinister Slush what does Yoshi's power shield animation looks like?
Because I think I just saw a japanese yoshi parry a attack from 9B's shulk. The color of the egg during the event was purple. Link (it's around 1:05)