Character Competitive Impressions

[warionumbah2]

Does this mean we'll lose our running joke soon?

Nah he'll switch to diddy when he gets bodied.

 

[Ikes]

On a non-Meta Knight related note, Mewtwo play by Mew^2 at Tourney Locater was pretty impressive. He did well against Gyo, Aerolink, Bwett and Denti. He obviously has match up problems but it has changed my perception a little bit. Do people still feel the character is bottom?

i wanna see him do mewtwo dittos against mew2king

 

[Deathcarter]

So Fire Emblem tier is dead. Hyrule tier isn't a thing in this game. Overalls tier exists (Mario, Luigi, Wario are all high/top tier characters as of the time of this writing). Are there any other tier clusters in this game?

Well there's Waifu tier:

(vanilla)





.....and the other Waifu tier:

 

[DarkBlueSpark]

So Ike is high tier with customs? Interesting.

I feel like if Robin's mobility was improved, he/she'd be much more viable. I don't know much about his/her frame data though.

 

[A_Kae]

So Ike is high tier with customs? Interesting.

I feel like if Robin's mobility was improved, he/she'd be much more viable. I don't know much about his/her frame data though.

Robin's frame data is bad. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Robin

Still, mobility is probably the biggest thing holding them back.

 

[Teshie U]

Robin's mobility is fine. The character is designed to be a slow powerhouse like ganon but with projectiles for added reach.

If she had something more along the lines of Ganon's safety and some more recovery tech I'd see more hope for the character.

He/She doesn't really need to move so quickly to keep up. Robin just needs to be able to do things more safely.

 

[A_Kae]

Robin's mobility is fine. The character is designed to be a slow powerhouse like ganon but with projectiles for added reach.

If she had something more along the lines of Ganon's safety and some more recovery tech I'd see more hope for the character.

He/She doesn't really need to move so quickly to keep up. Robin just needs to be able to do things more safely.

If robin was doing more damage, I would agree with you. But Robin is slower than ganon, and isn't doing nearly as much damage.

Really, I should probably stop discussing robin. I don't know nearly enough to make a proper argument.

 

[Smog Frog]

actually CAN move in the air. cant move for ****. also levin aerials are (arguably) the best aerials in the game. too bad they're a resource.

 

[A_Kae]

actually CAN move in the air. cant move for ****. also levin aerials are (arguably) the best aerials in the game. too bad they're a resource.

Yeah, Robin's air speed is actually better than I thought it was. Levin Sword Aerials are very strong, I agree, but the ending lag hurts a lot.

 

[Teshie U]

Levin aerials have nice reach, but so does Ganon stuff. Ganon uair and bair are much much safer to throw out and he can swing his legs around more than 8 times consecutively.

Realistically I'm thinking levin aerials are about as safe as ganon fair. Enough power to push people away, but definitely punishable.

 

[bc1910]

So Fire Emblem tier is dead. Hyrule tier isn't a thing in this game. Overalls tier exists (Mario, Luigi, Wario are all high/top tier characters as of the time of this writing). Are there any other tier clusters in this game?

RBY Tier used to be a thing, minus Pikachu of course. Mewtwo, Jigglypuff and Charizard were all around low tier. With Zard's buffs it's probably not a thing any more.

Kid Icarus tier with customs on isn't out of the question, the Pits and Palutena all being upper mid/lower high.

I can honestly see MK reaching top 10 at this point.

This got me thinking about the current top 10 and whether there's any room for MK. IMO the top characters are:



No particular order after ZSS. You'll notice I listed more than 10 characters, 16 to be exact, 'cause I think all these characters are great and they all compete for MK's spot in the top 10.

In terms of non-movers, I don't see Sheik, Pikachu, Sonic or ZSS going anywhere. All solidly top characters oozing potential with no massive weaknesses to bring them down in time. The only thing to consider here is ZSS's grab holding her back in future but I think the rest of her moveset is so good, it won't.

Rosa, Diddy and maybe Falcon and Ness are probable non-movers. Once again, they're all solid characters who seem to have great potential and MUs. However, I think there is more scope for these characters to drop than the other 4. Rosalina already has iffy MUs with random mid tiers, anyone who can swat Luma away for free gives her trouble and once we figure out how to best combat her camping/runaway/dodge spam when she's Luma-less, she'll be less of a threat. Diddy's banana play and good frame data is basically what's keeping him good, but we might see a character who really struggles to kill emerging from the ashes of his nerfs, and that's a pretty crippling weakness in Sm4sh. Ness has an extremely abusable recovery, Falcon has the same problem (though this didn't stop Brawl Olimar hence why I do think they're probable non-movers). As I said, I think the possibility of these 4 falling is higher than with the other 4.

Now, most of the others I think could feasibly move down. People have already noted Mario's possible range issues in the future, and this also applies to Luigi. Mario also has a pretty bad recovery while Luigi's mobility is garbage for the most part (not the worst but good jump height and decent run speed don't save it) and is already being abused by a lot of characters, Luigi already has a couple of 4-6 MUs. Yoshi could be held back by his relatively poor neutral, Fox has large killing issues plus issues with shield in general, and we all know the deal with Brawler and his whole "I'll kill you at 60 or not at all" thing. There's also the uncertainty factor with Brawler, not knowing whether all his customs will always be allowed.

Wario, Villager and Ryu I honestly cannot call either way. I think they all have scope to move up or down the tier list. Ryu is far too new and I'm just not knowledgeable enough about the other two to cast judgement. I will say it seems as though Villager could move down as people figure him out, but yeah, I really don't know.

So I think MK has a lot of competition for a top 10 spot, but it's feasible because I see only 4 characters in this game that are definitely better than him. Movement elsewhere among the top characters would not surprise me at all. The game does have scope to develop in a way that would grant MK a top 10 spot IMO.

All of this is assuming the game is never patched again which is a totally unrealistic expectation, so don't take this post too seriously, just wanted to analyse MK's possible positions in the current game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

On a non-Meta Knight related note, Mewtwo play by Mew^2 at Tourney Locater was pretty impressive. He did well against Gyo, Aerolink, Bwett and Denti. He obviously has match up problems but it has changed my perception a little bit. Do people still feel the character is bottom?

I was watching him and it made me want to put time into mewtwo again.

 

[C0rvus]

Robin has a very strong kit imo. Big, strong aerials that cover platforms, a variety of items and spells to play with at mid to long range, a very potent command grab that can change the momentum of a match, and a recovery move that can fend off juggle attempts. Robin is a very well designed zoning character. The lack of mobility is made up for by the ability to control space and encourage approaches by charging Thunder and tossing items, but far from covering this weakness enough to make him broken. This design has very clear intent and clear flaws.

The issue here is that this zoning archetype does not stack up well against the top characters in Smash 4. Robin doesn't have what makes characters strong in the current (and future) meta; namely, grab followups, the mobility to approach or the ability to hard wall approaches (Luma). It's unfortunate, but barring some big changes to the character, he will tend towards the bottom of the pile for the rest of the foreseeable future. (Customs help him a little though.)

 

[PUK]

Robin has a very strong kit imo. Big, strong aerials that cover platforms, a variety of items and spells to play with at mid to long range, a very potent command grab that can change the momentum of a match, and a recovery move that can fend off juggle attempts. Robin is a very well designed zoning character. The lack of mobility is made up for by the ability to control space and encourage approaches by charging Thunder and tossing items, but far from covering this weakness enough to make him broken. This design has very clear intent and clear flaws.

The issue here is that this zoning archetype does not stack up well against the top characters in Smash 4. Robin doesn't have what makes characters strong in the current (and future) meta; namely, grab followups, the mobility to approach or the ability to hard wall approaches (Luma). It's unfortunate, but barring some big changes to the character, he will tend towards the bottom of the pile for the rest of the foreseeable future. (Customs help him a little though.)

Actually nosferatu release set up an item toss. Does it count as a grab followup?

 

[Ikes]

I still think Luigi is better than Mario, if only marginally.
Honestly my top 15 would be these dudes in order

 

[David Viran]

The only thing to consider here is ZSS's grab holding her back in future but I think the rest of her moveset is so good, it won't.

Her grab is the only thing keeping her tame right now.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

FE Tier list:
Pokemon tier list:
Mario tier list:
Hyrule tier list:
DLC tier list:
Jailbait tier list:
'My body is a sphere' tier list:
Furry tier list:
Space traveller tier list:
'I miss brawl... ;-;' tier list:
3rd Party tier list:
Arm Cannon tier list:
Ninja w/ scarf tier list:
Bounty hunter tier list:
'Fighting 4 friends' tier list:

 

[PUK]

Her grab is the only thing keeping her tame right now.

yeah i tried ZSS not so long ago and her grab is indeed awful.

 

[FullMoon]

If ZSS had a normal grab she would invalidate a lot of characters because at that point she's basically a faster Sheik that kills a lot earlier.

 

[A_Kae]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diSl9HELzAY

I don't know how practical that is in an actual match, but I think it's at least a good demonstration of how strong ZSS is if she can get grabs.

At least all of ZSS's grab combos are safely locked behind a 16f grab.

 

[C0rvus]

ZSS has incredible reward for getting grabs at least. Up air and fair followups, among other stuff. You can also combo into it at certain percents. I remember I used to hit nair to grab, and I bet Zair can lead into it too. But yeah, it's pretty bad. Good thing, it's the only thing caging the beast, so to speak.

I used to doubt ZSS for some reason. I guess her neutral isn't as tight as Sheik or Rosalina, so her ability to dominate characters tends to be a bit more subtle. But her mobility, frame data, and kill power/setups are scary good. Probably top 5 right now imo.

 

[Makorel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diSl9HELzAY

I don't know how practical that is in an actual match, but I think it's at least a good demonstration of how strong ZSS is if she can get grabs.

At least all of ZSS's grab combos are safely locked behind a 16f grab.

Dude that's Nairo every time he plays ZSS.

 

[A_Kae]

Dude that's Nairo every time he plays ZSS.

Really? I've seen some of his ZSS matches, but I don't recall him ever getting kills that early. Similar stuff, Throw > Aerials > Up-Special, but never killing at 25 that I recall.

 

[PUK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diSl9HELzAY

I don't know how practical that is in an actual match, but I think it's at least a good demonstration of how strong ZSS is if she can get grabs.

At least all of ZSS's grab combos are safely locked behind a 16f grab.

training so no DI. Di will avoid the upB kill, and can break the combo if not well read

 

[David Viran]

Really? I've seen some of his ZSS matches, but I don't recall him ever getting kills that early. Similar stuff, Throw > Aerials > Up-Special, but never killing at 25 that I recall.

Then you haven't seen his flip kick set ups.

 

[A_Kae]

training so no DI. Di will avoid the upB kill, and can break the combo if not well read

Well, that's a relief.

Then you haven't seen his flip kick set ups.

Do you have a video where I could see this?

 

[Makorel]

Oh I wasn't actually looking at the percent, but I have seen Nairo pull stuff like that off at maybe 30 or 40 percent higher. Really anything that can kill under 100% without rage is something to fear.

And yeah there's some DI thing going on that I don't know the specifics on but I think if ZSS guesses right they can follow their DI and nail them anyway.

 

[Ikes]

FE Tier list:
Pokemon tier list:
Mario tier list:
Hyrule tier list:
DLC tier list:
Jailbait tier list:
'My body is a sphere' tier list:
Furry tier list:
Space traveller tier list:
'I miss brawl... ;-;' tier list:
3rd Party tier list:
Arm Cannon tier list:
Ninja w/ scarf tier list:
Bounty hunter tier list:
'Fighting 4 friends' tier list:

might wanna put charizard and arguably Bowser on the furry tier list

 

[David Viran]

Well, that's a relief.


Do you have a video where I could see this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRgbfW09QKw

This is when nairo faced dabuz. I know rosa is light but dabuz almost never makes it past 100%

@ PUK The combo can be done with DI if zss reads it and if you are near the side blastzones up b will kill even with DI.

 

[herpyderpherper]

Bowser is underrated imo, a lot of teir lists ive seen lately have put him in about 35-40 area, he has a lot in his favor, such as amazing damage output, nearly all of his moves being kill moves, especailly his 2 kill throws and command grab(which is much safer in 1.06), he also has great ground mobility(15th fastest if im correct), he also benifits from customs, which give him the waveslash which works, very much as the name suggests, like a wavedash, he is also the heaviest charecter in the game, which allows him to live to extremely high percents, his bair also comes out quickly and has great range, making ledge trump -> bair a good option, he also has tough guy( not that helpfull though exept in the mega man mu), he also has a decent recovery(somthing previous Bowsers lacked), and with his fast tilts, he is also good at outranging non projectile charecters( captain, sonic, Roy)
But he has his flaws, the first being how hard he gets comboed/ juggled, TG helps with this somewhat, but if your a charecter like ryu, pikachu or sheik, you can get about 50 percent off a hit, also due to his size, weight and having no reliable landing options he gets juggled super hard, He also has bad matchups against top teirs, his worst being sheik, he also has problems being zoned, but tough guy remedies this somewhat, as a final reference ZeRo puts him at 31, NAKAT says bottom of high teir,and FOW puts him at top 20, i personally would put him in bottom high teir or high mid teir

 

[irokex13]

Do...do any of you even play Robin? Like, it honestly sounds like none of you know how to play Robin or have ever played a competent Robin.

 

[Shaya]

Btw, while I think and noted ZSS as a tier defining character, I wouldn't necessarily put her as top 3. I just feel pretty confident in asserting her match ups with most of the cast are firmly in her advantage; Sonic and Pikachu may be more consistent characters overall, but (customs off) we aren't really seeing their dominant abilities at the moment.

ZSS grab is actually -quite good- for how we can use it. But her ability to reliably handle shield reads (because her grab is reactable) is her problem. But in terms of having tons of things that combo into grab, the super long tetherness in use as a punish? I love it a lot @_@

Also doubles is amazing, as per usual/obvious.
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp2

 

[A_Kae]

Btw, while I think and noted ZSS as a tier defining character, I wouldn't necessarily put her as top 3. I just feel pretty confident in asserting her match ups with most of the cast are firmly in her advantage; Sonic and Pikachu may be more consistent characters overall, but (customs off) we aren't really seeing their dominant abilities at the moment.

Also doubles is amazing, as per usual/obvious.
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp2

I'm curious as to where you would put ZSS in a tier list. Sounds like you're thinking top 5, am I right?

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRgbfW09QKw
This is when nairo faced dabuz. I know rosa is light but dabuz almost never makes it past 100%

Thanks for that, those were some great matches. ZSS is scary.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Do...do any of you even play Robin? Like, it honestly sounds like none of you know how to play Robin or have ever played a competent Robin.

I play him, although he's not my main (that's Rosalina) and I'm out of practice in general so I'm probably not the most qualified person to talk about him.

That said...

The game says that Robin has powerful ranged magic to make up for his slow speed. The problem with this is that Robin's magic...isn't actually that threatening, as far as I can tell. Guess what charge level of Thunder has the strongest knockback? Spoilers, it's not Thoron. It's Arcthunder. And Arcthunder doesn't exactly inspire Charge Shot levels of respect.

Honestly, if I were in charge of buffing Robin, the first thing I'd suggest is making Thoron an actual threat. (Read: More damage and knockback.) Give him something to make you fear him at range if he has a full charge, and a reason to try and rush him down so he can't. Maybe that would help him set up his traps. I'd also want to buff his grab game, but I'm not sure if it's better to buff the grab itself or the throws.

 

[Ffamran]

Do...do any of you even play Robin? Like, it honestly sounds like none of you know how to play Robin or have ever played a competent Robin.

This wouldn't be surprising. I can only think of Nairo as a notable Robin player and I don't think I've seen his Robin before. This goes for a lot of characters like Wario, Pit, Toon Link, and even Pac-Man and Greninja. Unless you follow everything, you might not know who plays Pikachu, Villager, Mario, or even Captain Falcon well. Most people can name several good Sheik, Luigi, Ness, Sonic, and Diddy players, but Bowser, Palutena, Marth, Ike, Olimar, Dr. Mario, Peach, or Zelda? Probably not.

 

[Shaya]

I -feel- like Pikachu is safer to place higher although I have so many doubts about him (since very early on).
Sonic is still more widespread and consistent from my perspective, but maybe not for much longer... those continual non-trivial nerfs are starting to stack up although he's still good. Just how many match ups are now evenish or maybe slight disadvantages?
Rosalina's tools are to die for still, it's hard to quantify her properly although we all know she's insanity.

ZSS is "harder" because of her grab, although optimal ZSS feels secondish/honestly unmatched in capabilities.
But yeah, I feel safer saying 5th, maybe 4th, although I have doubts about all the characters above her bar Sheik (I think safer to say they're pretty similar power levels/not really much gap).

 

[A_Kae]

I -feel- like Pikachu is safer to place higher although I have so many doubts about him (since very early on).
Sonic is still more widespread and consistent from my perspective, but maybe not for much longer... those continual non-trivial nerfs are starting to stack up although he's still good. Just how many match ups are now evenish or maybe slight disadvantages?
Rosalina's tools are to die for still, it's hard to quantify her properly although we all know she's insanity.

ZSS is "harder" because of her grab, although optimal ZSS feels secondish/honestly unmatched in capabilities.
But yeah, I feel safer saying 5th, maybe 4th, although I have doubts about all the characters above her bar Sheik (I think safer to say they're pretty similar power levels/not really much gap).

Thanks for the response! I suppose top 5ish is hard to judge because of just how much stuff the characters at that level can do, and how it effects a match and the overall meta.

 

[herpyderpherper]

Most people can name several good Sheik, Luigi, Ness, Sonic, and Diddy players, but Bowser, Palutena, Marth, Ike, Olimar, Dr. Mario, Peach, or Zelda? Probably not.

exist, ash23 oco le troof for Bowser, Areolink for palutena(m2k if customs are on) , dabuz for olimar,

 

[LRodC]

I keep beating bad things about Mewtwo and how his weight and frame holds him back significantly and that his power and attacks aren't enough to compensate. If you had to give any buffs to BESIDES weight and other attributes to make him more viable compared to the rest of the cast, what would you give him?

If it were me, I'd give him even more power to make him a true glass cannon and beef up all of his throws, damage, and knockback similar to Ganondorf. He's extremely powerful in Pokemon, so it shouldn't be completely out of the question to boost up his power. If Sakurai insists on making him lightweight, he should be heavyweight power to compensate.

 

[irokex13]

I play him, although he's not my main (that's Rosalina) and I'm out of practice in general so I'm probably not the most qualified person to talk about him.

That said...

The game says that Robin has powerful ranged magic to make up for his slow speed. The problem with this is that Robin's magic...isn't actually that threatening, as far as I can tell. Guess what charge level of Thunder has the strongest knockback? Spoilers, it's not Thoron. It's Arcthunder. And Arcthunder doesn't exactly inspire Charge Shot levels of respect.

Honestly, if I were in charge of buffing Robin, the first thing I'd suggest is making Thoron an actual threat. (Read: More damage and knockback.) Give him something to make you fear him at range if he has a full charge, and a reason to try and rush him down so he can't. Maybe that would help him set up his traps. I'd also want to buff his grab game, but I'm not sure if it's better to buff the grab itself or the throws.

Thoron isn't threatening? A full-screen projectile that travels fast and kills at reasonable percents with rage isn't threatening? A move that just completely stops the opponent from dedicating to any option in mid to long range is not threatening?

Arcthunder doesn't inspire respect? A solid projectile that just locks you in shield if you get caught in it? A projectile that into pretty much anything Robin wants and if it hits you guarantees Robin at least 20% in damage doesn't demand respect?

I'm actually at a loss for words here. Like, there's a lot of basic stuff that Robin does that it seems that most people in this thread don't know about, but people are going to talk as if they know what Robin can do and say that Robin's bad, so they're going to end up being buffed when they don't really need it.