Character Competitive Impressions

[Vincent21]

Little Mac benefits from lag a bit...mine at least.
It's hilarious to really see that characters lose to heavies, as well as Macs, just because of lag.

When you start playing the character: Hey lag is pretty neat I can get away with poorly buffered smashes sometimes because early shield drops and other lag things.

When you've been playing the character: Kill me. Ftilt pivot, out-spacing what they think they can shield grab, applying pressure, and actually applying the uses of your throw become agonizing. Kill me Kill me Kill me.

---

And for the record, since the conversation was being had, yes Guard Breaker is the better Side B for recovery and I'm surprised you're so invested in convincing Ikes. You have the right answer, congrats. I don't think there is anything left to prove pass that point. Which isn't to saying the desire to teach people and grow the collective knowledge is bad, but eventually we all gotta know when to peel and accept a lesson won't be learned this day.

Vanilla Mac arguably can't even use Side B as a recovery move unless absolutely forced it's lack of armor is so damning. Almost all of his stage returns, if you're actually making an effort to live, involve dropping slightly low, potentially airdodging a stage spike and forcing them to challenge UpB either from the ledge or elsewhere. And it's risky business, let me tell you.

With Guard Breaker, suddenly touching Side-B in any scenario besides "well I'm dead anyway if they're not brain-dead or don't goof" IS OKAY NOW. And that's huge.

Guard Breaker is literally gaining a recovery move you didn't have, almost. Recovering with Vanilla Side B is fundamentally not okay because the slow movement, level of commitment, and modest aerial hitbox all spell disaster the moment you commit to that button before they've committed to something outright bad.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Are there any factors that prevent and from being the worst characters in the game?

 

[Teshie U]

I'd say Mewtwo's mobility and reach are too crucial to really see him invalidated by run away tactics. The absolutely worst characters are likely the ones that can't catch the quick characters ever.

 

[Speed Boost]

@ Shaya I see a lot of you have high hopes for Link, Ike, Marth and everyone with a sword that got some buffs in 1.08.

While I admit that they are more viable now than before It seems a little premature to think they will actually affect the meta in any real way.

I guess it depends about what level of play we are talking about. If we are talking about the highest level than I don't see them making a dent in the meta.

If we are talking about "filthy casuals" like me and many of you then just about any character can effect the small metas we are apart of in our local scenes.

@ san. I think Ike gets destroyed by Pikachu. Pikachu can run circles around Ike in nuetral with QA and Nuetral B approaches. Not to mention juggling him all over once he is in the air.

Whatever happens Smash 4 isn't going to turn into to Brawl. The rush down characters with combos and follow ups will be king for the duration of the Smash 4 lifetime. Just like they were in Melee. I know that 4 isn't as offense oriented as Melee, but it is certainly more offense oriented than Brawl. Speed is very important in Smash 4.

It takes an extremely strong tool kit to overcome poor speed and mobility in the air. Rosalina can overcome because Luma is OP. Villager can overcome because he has a crazy toolbox and ledge camping design. That's really it though, no other slow characters have really won any big tournaments.

 

[PUK]

Ike is not slower than pikachu. Ike has a top 10 air speed, good vertical mobility,QD autocanceling and 3 times pikachu's range. Ike can corner anyone in the game except sheik and some others on SV because SV is the kingdom of camping.

 

[san.]

Ike is tough to use at high level, so there won't be many new players picking him up.

Ike's movement is centered around his initial dash and quick dash->shield frames, air speed, and space coverage from his attacks. Not many people even know what high level Ike play even looks like.

 

[Speed Boost]

Ike is not slower than pikachu. Ike has a top 10 air speed, good vertical mobility,QD autocanceling and 3 times pikachu's range. Ike can corner anyone in the game except sheik and some others on SV because SV is the kingdom of camping.

Horizontal mobility is what helps you land when you are getting juggled and how do you figure air speed to get him in the top ten? It doesn't matter how good his reach is if he is getting juggled. Pikachu can force him to approach with thunder jolt or skip nuetral and cross him up with Quick Attack. Once he starts getting juggled he struggles to land safely. Rinse and repeat.

 

[-RedX-]

Juggle Ike all you want, I'm pretty sure Pika will struggle getting the KO while Ike is around with rage built up.
Like san said earlier, Ike has ways to build up damage that is equal to whatever Pika is juggling for. Ike having range advantage and being somewhat safe is a big deal.

 

[Jaxas]

Ike is tough to use at high level, so there won't be many new players picking him up.

Ike's movement is centered around his initial dash and quick dash->shield frames, air speed, and space coverage from his attacks. Not many people even know what high level Ike play even looks like.

Hopefully we'll get to see some soon - are you heading to any large tournaments (with streams) anytime soon? If not, do you know of any tournament plans other high-level Ike players have?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Been breaking down the interactions between game mechanics and characters a lot lately. Found out why brawl in its layer life resembled ssb64 (MK could cover all defensive options with superb ease with range + speed + punishment made it more risky).
Besides sheik, wario, and command grapplers, is there any other character that can legit beat out most defensive options to force the player to become more patient?

 

[san.]

Hopefully we'll get to see some soon - are you heading to any large tournaments (with streams) anytime soon? If not, do you know of any tournament plans other high-level Ike players have?

I plan on it soon, hopefully. I have no idea how busy I will be in the upcoming months. If not, I'll at least try to make some videos to help those players. I tend not to save matches when I play, too.

Ryo from Florida, Ryuga from Michigan, Blitz from Toronto area, Rango from the midwest/near Georgia area, SM on the west coast, me in upstate NY, and Waldo/Red-X in NYC are all that I can think of. We do well locally, but many of us don't tend to branch out. The patch broadened Ike's skill ceiling and well all need to improve as players in many ways as well.

 

[Vincent21]

Ike is tough to use at high level, so there won't be many new players picking him up.

Ike's movement is centered around his initial dash and quick dash->shield frames, air speed, and space coverage from his attacks. Not many people even know what high level Ike play even looks like.

I'm trying really hard myself. All that really seems apparently about the character at face-value is that I have reasonable grab rewards, I get strong rewards for proper spacing, and I feel surprisingly safe after a lot of what I do, but that's all really vague as a starting point.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Are there any factors that prevent and from being the worst characters in the game?

Zelda.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Samus and Zelda exist. That is literally why Dedede and Mewtwo are not the worst.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda's latest buffs however are actually a pretty big deal. Landing lag reductions on N-air and D-air are useful in many situations, especially for KO confirming in more situations and spacing more dynamically. I don't think she's the worst character.

Robin imo clearly has more problems than Zelda especially since he really hasn't gained much of anything, but still has the same dead zones and awful negative state. Plus his grab game is kinda a joke.

 

[PUK]

Zelda's latest buffs however are actually a pretty big deal. Landing lag reductions on N-air and D-air are useful in many situations, especially for KO confirming in more situations and spacing more dynamically. I don't think she's the worst character.

Robin imo clearly has more problems than Zelda especially since he really hasn't gained much of anything, but still has the same dead zones and awful negative state.

Robin's underrated, and severely. The tome is an instant projectile which kill really soon, nosferatu is command grab which can follow arcfire and arcthunder, and Levin sword makes his/her aerial really scarry combined to his good aerial mobility.
Robin has really bad MU but has surprisingly some good MU against some mid tier and high tier

 

[Ikes]

Robin's underrated, and severely. The tome is an instant projectile which kill really soon, nosferatu is command grab which can follow arcfire and arcthunder, and Levin sword makes his/her aerial really scarry combined to his good aerial mobility.
Robin has really bad MU but has surprisingly some good MU against some mid tier and high tier

I could weirdly see robin doing well against Falcon but I cant be sure of this.

 

[A_Kae]

I could weirdly see robin doing well against Falcon but I cant be sure of this.

I'm not sure how that's possible. Falcon is more than mobile enough too evade robin's projectiles, and if you can do that, robin doesn't have much that s/he can do at all.

 

[Ikes]

I'm not sure how that's possible. Falcon is more than mobile enough too evade robin's projectiles, and if you can do that, robin doesn't have much that s/he can do at all.

yeah i was thinking customs, firewall and quick thunder would help a lot in this i think, though. dont know much about his other customs though, only ever bothered with those two.

Though i feel like if a robin gets falcon trapped in his traps, he can get really good reward off of it.

 

[A_Kae]

yeah i was thinking customs, firewall and quick thunder would help a lot in this i think, though. dont know much about his other customs though, only ever bothered with those two.

Though i feel like if a robin gets falcon trapped in his traps, he can get really good reward off of it.

Ah. Those would definitely help against falcon, and every fast character. Gives robin much more of a chance. Still, robin does still have the same flaws with customs as without, so s/he still probably won't be doing well against falcon, just less worse.

Though I don't know nearly as much about robin as some other people, especially with customs, so I could be wrong about all this.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Are there any factors that prevent and from being the worst characters in the game?

Dedede's Gordo short-throw.

Mewtwo's ability to recover basically no matter what (shadowball B-reverse, confusion) (assuming he isn't dead first, of course).

 

[TriTails]

The absolutely worst characters are likely the ones that can't catch the quick characters ever.

Hi. I'm Luigi. Have we met?

Are there any factors that prevent and from being the worst characters in the game?

Real talk: Who does D3 beat in this game?

Horizontal mobility is what helps you land when you are getting juggled and how do you figure air speed to get him in the top ten? It doesn't matter how good his reach is if he is getting juggled. Pikachu can force him to approach with thunder jolt or skip nuetral and cross him up with Quick Attack. Once he starts getting juggled he struggles to land safely. Rinse and repeat.

Ike's erespid: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/

15-17th, with erespid value of 1.08. That's pretty close to Mario's 1.15, who ranks at 6-8th (Ignore Dr. Mario there. He is slower than Mario).

Robin's underrated, and severely. The tome is an instant projectile which kill really soon, nosferatu is command grab which can follow arcfire and arcthunder, and Levin sword makes his/her aerial really scarry combined to his good aerial mobility.
Robin has really bad MU but has surprisingly some good MU against some mid tier and high tier

Arcfire + Arcthunder + Stuffs are really scary.

Luigi beats him though (Or at least, it's even). Fireballs are godly in this fight.

At least bouncing has a bit more range and decent for gimps. Otherwise it sucks. No real reason to use it over normal or iceball.

Actually clothesline tornado for Luigi is REALLY bad too. Could contend for worst custom. Mach is bad, but at least it makes you recover...normal cyclone kills earlier than clothesline in the end because of vertical off screen kills.

Bouncing Fireballs are worthless in every MUs. Not even against Rosalina because you can fire default ones over Luma and to Rosalina.

Clothesline Cyclone at least is good in FFAs... Fiery Jump Punch might as well not exist.

 

[TriTails]

EDIT: Whoops! Accidential double post!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Dedede's Gordo short-throw.

Uh, no. Not even close. Meaty disjointed attacks, weight, fall speed (the positives of it), and a few more things keep D3 from being complete garbage.

@ TriTails Well he does ok in MUs that don't compromise his gameplan and his neutral (olololol) in an overbearing way. I would take that over being straight up being unwinnable or in CP territory. That just means more finessing (lowwww tierrrr herooooo).

I felt, prepatch, that D3 beat out the likes of Marth/Lucina and the Pits, though not by much. He played Marth/Lucina's spacing game a little better with slightly more range, and he didn't suffer drastically at the hands of their frame data and specs. The Pits, on the other hand, can't really keep D3 honest---they have great buttons and all, but they really can't keep him away. Arrows are beans, the range of their normals are meh, Orbitars exist to be broken/punished, etc.

I don't know about what changed for the Pits, but Marth (and Lucina?) having a beefed up jab actually makes a world of difference in the MU. Basically if D3 gets tagged by that now, there's no Sakurai angle saving him from nasty followups. I'd say now it was closer to even-ish or even in Marth's favor.

I will append this post by saying that these characters are the only ones I have a "controversial" MU opinion on. Other than that, I agree that D3 either loses slightly or dramatically to just about everyone else in the game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[GeneralLedge]

Real talk: Who does D3 beat in this game?

I've crazy reason to believe he's a threat to Sheik.

Sure, Sheik will combo the heck out of him at early percents. Once she gets in he'll be trapped in a 20-hit string. It's painful.

However, because of his beefy weight, fast-falling, and multiple jumps, Sheik's bouncing fish setups aren't quite as effective, and Dedede will simply... survive where others would be boned.

After the initial onslaught of pain, Sheik's setups will become progressively less and less effective, until a very strange threshold where Dedede's damage is high enough that he's sent too far for the setups to work. Sheik, at this point, is in a very bad position, and Dedede simply won't ****ing die.

And then Sheik can get sloppy and try to fish for Bouncing Fish kills off-stage. But Dedede's off-stage game is superior, and he can punish a whiffed Bouncing Fish with a fast-fall into uair or a repeating jump back and forth into dair (and Sheik ain't coming back).

Most heavies fall under the same oddity that Sheik mains need to keep an eye out for, but Dedede capitalizes with better off-stage options.


All of this IMO, of course. \/\/

 

[TriTails]

I've crazy reason to believe he's a threat to Sheik.

*Grabs popcorn*

Sure, Sheik will combo the heck out of him at early percents. Once she gets in he'll be trapped in a 20-hit string. It's painful.

It sure is.

However, because of his beefy weight, fast-falling, and multiple jumps, Sheik's bouncing fish setups aren't quite as effective, and Dedede will simply... survive where others would be boned.

After the initial onslaught of pain, Sheik's setups will become progressively less and less effective, until a very strange threshold where Dedede's damage is high enough that he's sent too far for the setups to work. Sheik, at this point, is in a very bad position, and Dedede simply won't ****ing die.

Even Needles to BF?

And then Sheik can get sloppy and try to fish for Bouncing Fish kills off-stage. But Dedede's off-stage game is superior, and he can punish a whiffed Bouncing Fish with a fast-fall into uair or a repeating jump back and forth into dair (and Sheik ain't coming back).

Not really. Doesn't needles combos to BF? Or Sheik can just try to get a smash attack off a bad move...

Most heavies fall under the same oddity that Sheik mains need to keep an eye out for, but Dedede capitalizes with better off-stage options.

Also, Aura + Rage.

Quoting the wise sentence:

All of this IMO, of course. \/\/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDD becomes a completely different character as soon as he gets a stock lead. What starts out looking like a slow and immobile toy to combo around and get free stuff on suddenly turns into a huge, frustrating brickwall with massive hitboxes and KO power.

 

[RoyNowBoyNow]

Do people genuinely believe Diddy isn't high tier anymore? He lost one option. He's still got insane mix ups, an incredibly abusable item in banana, jump cancel forward smash shenanigans and great mobility. I can't see him dropping too far. I won't be dropping him anytime soon.

I also think Roy's overhyped and I say that as a big fan. He's a lot more punishable than you'd expect and competent players will be able to take advantage of that. His forward smash is admittedly borked but other than that he just seems like an agile swordsman with potential to be high tier, though I'd say he's one of the weaker high tiers. He struggles with projectiles and doesn't like neutral but once he's in he wrecks.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

DDD becomes a completely different character as soon as he gets a stock lead. What starts out looking like a slow and immobile toy to combo around and get free stuff on suddenly turns into a huge, frustrating brickwall with massive hitboxes and KO power.

Problem is getting the stock lead in the first place, and preserving your momentum from it, which is difficult depending on the MU.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TriTails]

Do people genuinely believe Diddy isn't high tier anymore?

People seriously think that?

His broken U-air got nerfed. Soooooooooo...? He still has banana to smashes, Monkey Flip, banana in general, that F-air, etc.

It's just that he has become more honest instead of the braindead HooHah that nets you kills at like 90%. Now people actually has to mixup his game instead of camping the opposite player out by holding to the same banana for 30 hours and get ridiculous rewards outta it.

 

[A_Kae]

People seriously thinks that?

His broken U-air got nerfed. He still has banana to smashes, Monkey Flip, banana in general, that F-air, etc.

It's just that he has become more honest instead of the braindead HooHah that nets you kills at like 90%. Now people actually has to mixup his game instead of camping the opposite player out by holding to the same banana for 30 hours.

Oh yes, many people feel that diddy is now somehow terrible. There was some discussion in the 1.0.8 patch notes thread about this a while ago.

 

[oldkingcroz]

From my experience, DeDeDe has a great matchup against Kirby. He get's more out of rage, can't be gimped, has a heavy disjointed ftilt/ air attacks, uses projectiles, and has a next to useless copy ability. He's one of Kirby's worst matchups (bar swordmen). There's a good 3 or so local DeDeDe players, and still after playing the Kirby DeDeDe matchup many times, I just can't do anything against him without being overly risky.

I can imagine he does decent against the other heavies, due to his command grab, jab to jab combo, grab combos, and superb recovery. Bowser Jr probably doesn't have a good time, because ledge guarding fair/bair is useless when DeDeDe has a practically invincible recovery. And he definitely has a few tricks against Bowser (DeDeDe ciding, Gordos, and grab combos seem like they were meant for the big guy). The kill throw and Super Armor on Charizard is probably a huge nuisance, for DeDeDe. That's probably not a good matchup.

 

[Mario766]

For people who asked, Ally will not be at CEO but has signed up for EVO.

Ally will actually be playing at a customs tourney in Indianapolis tomorrow though no one will be watching due to CEO.

 

[Zelder]

I think that Mario and Diddy occupy similar niches (good rewards off grabs, fast, can struggle to kill on occasion, crazy frame data), and as Diddy gets nerfed we'll see more Marios. But I might just be a Mario booster so eh.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Do people genuinely believe Diddy isn't high tier anymore? He lost one option. He's still got insane mix ups, an incredibly abusable item in banana, jump cancel forward smash shenanigans and great mobility. I can't see him dropping too far. I won't be dropping him anytime soon.

I also think Roy's overhyped and I say that as a big fan. He's a lot more punishable than you'd expect and competent players will be able to take advantage of that. His forward smash is admittedly borked but other than that he just seems like an agile swordsman with potential to be high tier, though I'd say he's one of the weaker high tiers. He struggles with projectiles and doesn't like neutral but once he's in he wrecks.

I think that as long as Diddy has his bananas, and that his frame data remains intact without anymore nerfs, he should remain a contender for top half of the cast.

As for Roy, I see him listed as the best FE character in SSB4 almost everywhere I go. It could be the initial hype from his announcement, but who knows if he might actually end up being very good once his metagame develops. One thing that concerns me about Roy is his design (fast-faller, lack of SH auto-cancels, needed to be up close to maximize damage); once the hype settles down and that players familiarize themselves with the match-up, they may be able to catch on to his playstyle and exploit his weaknesses to the fullest potential. I think Roy is solid, but I can see him competing against Marth and Ike for the title of best FE character, especially with their buffed attributes from the 1.0.8. update. It is somewhat early to tell; we may have to wait for all of their match-up spreads to develop in the coming months to determine that, or rather we look at which of them has the best match-ups versus the perceived top tiers.

Curious, even though it is still early, but how would you guys rank the FE characters from best to worst at the moment? ^-^

 

[TriTails]

Any notable Luigis for CEO and EVO?

Curious, even though it is still early, but how would you guys rank the FE characters from best to worst at the moment? ^-^

Ike, Roy, and Marth are separated by only small gaps though. They're pretty close.

 

[Zelder]

> > > >>>>/


edit: woah

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Marth, Ike, Roy, Lucina, Robin

I don't think there is much argument in that regard. The question is what tiers do they actually land in. This is also customs off. Custom on is Ike, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Robin

EDIT: And apparently 2 different lists popped up while I was reading this page with completely different orders. Welp.

Also, to those who were asking about good Ikes before: Rango will be at CEO (Pool 9), and Ryo (Or Ryuga, one of the two) are there as well. So you have a chance to see at least a few of them.

 

[A_Kae]

I think that as long as Diddy has his bananas, and that his frame data remains intact without anymore nerfs, he should remain a contender for top half of the cast.

As for Roy, I see him listed as the best FE character in SSB4 almost everywhere I go. It could be the initial hype from his announcement, but who knows if he might actually end up being very good once his metagame develops. One thing that concerns me about Roy is his design (fast-faller, lack of SH auto-cancels, needed to be up close to maximize damage); once the hype settles down and that players familiarize themselves with the match-up, they may be able exploit his weaknesses to the fullest potential. I think Roy is solid, but I can see him competing against Marth and Ike for the title of best FE character, especially with their buffed attributes from the 1.0.8. update. It is somewhat early to tell; we may have to wait for all of their match-up spreads to develop in the coming months to determine that, or rather we look at which of them has the best match-ups versus the perceived top tiers.

Curious, even though it is still early, but how would you guys rank the FE characters from best to worst at the moment? ^-^

Roy I absolutely feel is overhyped. He's not bad. Just not as good as people say.

With that said, he doesn't actually have to be that close for max damage, aside from f-smash. The entire sword aside from the tip is the strong point, so you don't have to be nearly as close as you might think.

Roy, Marth, and Ike are probably all around the same spot tier wise. Low-High tier or High-Mid tier I would say.

For ranking I would say that Marth > Ike > Roy > Lucina > Robin > everyone else. But Marth, Roy, and Ike are all extremely close and I'm not too sure about the precise ordering, plus I'm biased.

Marth's and Ike's buffs in 1.0.8 were amazing.

Also, eventhubs tier list has roy at #2 lol.

Edit: With customs I think Marth takes top spot with no question, Crescent Slash is just too good.

 

[Nu~]

Customs on

=>>>/