Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Hey @ Djent , why no StaticManny or even any Sonic in top 8?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

This change, amongst others in this patch, really profoundly pissed me off. Because it shows, that there's intent behind Samus and others not having guaranteed follow ups from her up-tilt and d-air. That and making Ryu, "the king of combos" have no stage meteor effects from his d-air. It's a clear, insulting, design decision, really. The combo windows are often so tight, you do not have any ability to react to a tech or not or you'll miss the combo. If I met the guy on the street, there would likely be violence.

It might be an "experimental" change. Take Ike who just got straight up buffs. Nothing was really changed except Ftilt losing a sweet-spot and just doing a consistent 12%. Now, take Falco, Marth, and Lucina who had various changes, especially to one move: Falco's Uair and Marth and Lucina's jab. Yes, Falco's Dair was changed too, but if they did change everyone's Dair to function like Falco's where it doesn't ground spike, it might end up bad for some characters and really good for some characters. Ganondorf would just be able to kill much, much quicker with Dair, but Captain Falcon? He could probably use Dair to Knee if they screw up the angle enough. Other characters might not even be able to do anything and much actually hurt them more like Bowser could end up sending someone straight up, but at low enough percents, the landing lag will just mean someone could severely punish him with their own Dair like Link could just Dair Bowser back and potentially kill him.

People do like straight up buffs, but people are more wary of changes. When patch first got released, I hadn't played for a while - only played to check for changes - and I felt like Falco just got straight up nerfed as I couldn't see the frame changes. Imagine that where Uair just got nerfed and had nothing to compensate for it. Falco would have dropped to bottom immediately and be the one bad character to get nerfed and not have a universal change just affect him like Samus, Yoshi, or Zelda - the ledge cancel thing which I don't think Falco players even used.

With "experimental" changes, they can't afford to do it to everyone as everyone functions differently. The way the game's being patched, there's like batches, but with select characters, namely Ike, Marth, Mii Swordfighter, Lucina, Falco, and Zelda always receiving a lot of changes. Also, Diddy, but that might be from severe back lash from the community. Link gets tweaks, but not to the extent Ike and Marth get and Samus got tweaks, but not to the extent Falco and Zelda get. And here's the thing, Ike, Marth, Lucina, Falco, and Zelda are notable for being under-performing characters. Guess who else are? Samus, Dr. Mario, Triple D, Jigglypuff, and even Link and Lucario. Maybe they'll be the next group to be focused on as aside from some tweaks like to Samus's Ftilt, grab end lag, and Up Smash, Dr. Mario's Up Smash hit angle change, and the freakout nerf to Link's jab cancel and progressive Spin Attack buffs, they haven't gotten much compared to Ike getting more and more buff - pun intended -, Falco getting an aerial game change, and Zelda functioning better. The question is, if Samus was claimed to be the best character in the game before release, then what was that monster called Samus? She's like the reverse Greninja where Greninja came out as a monster and was toned down while Samus apparently started out as a monster, but is really lackluster when the game was released.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It should also be mentioned that the safest thing to do when he tries to bomb you directly, roll backwards, is also the worst thing to do.

Because really. You want more distance between you and him so that he can be free to chuck rangs and launch arrows? A lot of the time Tink can end up gaining ground and advantage in the neutral just because someone doesn't want to deal with the bomb mix-up.



I always thought of his neutral less about gaining rewards off of punishes and more about establishing a war of attrition. Closing on him requires taking damage and giving him those read opportunities in neutral so he doesn't really have to do anything. He's just trying to constantly reset any momentum the opposing player builds on him back to a neutral state. Even if all he does by grab you is add some pummel % (peanuts, really) and toss you away from him you're back to square one trying to get in on bomb/rang/arrow/sword.

This would normally lead you to the Duck Hunt conundrum where you can go ahead and rack oodles of damage, but never kill anyone, but unlike DH Tink doesn't struggle with slower or bad kill moves.

You want a war of attrition against Toon Link assuming your reaction time doesn't fail against TL's other slow projectiles. Toon Link's reward is really low in this scenario, and many characters outdo him noticeably in positive/negative state situations. Any time someone breaks TL's zoning, it's costly for him if his opponent knows how to cover landing/recovery options. In contrast TL can virtually never punish a ledge reset because his edgeguarding options are garbage.

Also wtf. TL's kill moves are slower than Duck Hunt's. And they're definitely not good except B-throw near the ledge or the occasional Bomb confirm into his otherwise terrible F-air. I would actually argue that Toon Link overall has the worst moveset in the game. He literally is only salvaged by Bombs being really good, and without them he would unquestionably be the worst character in the game. Even Zelda has good throws, KO confirms off normals, a good recovery, and good edgeguards.

 

[Smog Frog]

Hey @ Djent , why no StaticManny or even any Sonic in top 8?

Smooth Criminal

why staticmanny as the to mention? isnt 6wx better"

 

[Vincent21]

You want a war of attrition against Toon Link assuming your reaction time doesn't fail against TL's other slow projectiles. Toon Link's reward is really low in this scenario, and many characters outdo him noticeably in positive/negative state situations. Any time someone breaks TL's zoning, it's costly for him if his opponent knows how to cover landing/recovery options. In contrast TL can virtually never punish a ledge reset because his edgeguarding options are garbage.

Also wtf. TL's kill moves are slower than Duck Hunt's. And they're definitely not good except B-throw near the ledge or the occasional Bomb confirm into his otherwise terrible F-air. I would actually argue that Toon Link overall has the worst moveset in the game. He literally is only salvaged by Bombs being really good, and without them he would unquestionably be the worst character in the game. Even Zelda has good throws, KO confirms off normals, a good recovery, and good edgeguards.

I'll concede it's costly to be ousted from your zoning compared to the rewards you get and that hurts his position, but since when is his moveset suddenly this bad? Last I checked his jab was reasonable, his usmash was fast, his uair was solid and you weren't left wanting when you were looking to kill someone. Did I miss changes on my return? Edit: If I did, I ask for simple forgiveness on the grounds I've only been experimenting with the game once again for a couple of days here and there on each week. But I doubt I'd not notice something this substantial.

 

[outfoxd]

Speed doesnt mean much for duck hunts moves when you can't confirm anything, and you smashes are prone to slip outs. we're supposed to kill off reads but we can only reall y rely on aerials. Kinda.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'll concede it's costly to be ousted from your zoning compared to the rewards you get and that hurts his position, but since when is his moveset suddenly this bad? Last I checked his jab was reasonable, his usmash was fast, his uair was solid and you weren't left wanting when you were looking to kill someone. Did I miss changes on my return?

Jab is 6 frames, and only does as much damage as Doc's and has no Jab cancel followups. That is AWFUL when you consider the risk/reward for boxing.

U-smash might not be extremely slow, but at 11 frames it's hardly super fast. Does less damage, kills later than Mario's, depends on a sweetspot, and is not safe on block meaning it has to be set up. It's hardly a great move, and it doesn't make up for the rest of TL's moveset being bad.

TL's U-air in a vacuum isn't a bad move. Tell me how he ever lands this move against a good player outside of getting a lucky U-tilt. Zelda at least can set up her U-air after D-air or D-throw. What does TL even do to land U-air? His throw setups are awful and he has trouble covering people who jump back and aim to ledge reset.

And no, you didn't miss any changes. TL's moveset just sucks. Nerfed heavily from Brawl (D-air nerf especially sucks for him) and the ledge changes do him no favors when it means he literally cannot kill you for recovering low. Bombs are the one really annoying thing he can do, and if he didn't have them, he would be the worst character. Has no safe approaches, virtually no midrange, can't edgeguard, limited options against juggles and edgeguards, and grab and throws are awful.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't know the changes to them in patch 1.0.8 or even 1.0.6, but rough hit frames between the two. For Toon Link, I know his Smashes kill, Ftilt might be able to kill, Bair, Dair, Fair, and Uair kill, and B-throw kills. For Duck Hunt, aside from Smashes, I only know that their Uair and Bair kill while Dair spikes.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|6-7, 13-14, 21-25|4-6, 14-16, 26-29 or infinite
Dash Attack|9-11|10-13 or 14-19
Ftilt|9-13|8-11
Utilt|8-12|8-12
Dtilt|9-10|6-7
Side Smash|15-17, 32-34|12-13, 24-25
Up Smash|11-17|7-8, 15-16, 23-24
Down Smash|9-10, 17-18|7-8, 15-16, 23-24
Nair|6-7, 13-14|6-8 or 9-37
Fair|14-15|7-10 or 9-10 or 11-12
Bair|7-9|7-10
Uair|11-13 or 14-40|6-7, 12-13?, 20-21
Dair|17-25 or 26-64|14-14 or 20-20
Grab|12-18|8-9
Dash Grab|14-20|10-11
Pivot Grab|15-21|10-11

 

[outfoxd]

I don't know the changes to them in patch 1.0.8 or even 1.0.6, but rough hit frames between the two. For Toon Link, I know his Smashes kill, Ftilt might be able to kill, Bair, Dair, Fair, and Uair kill, and B-throw kills. For Duck Hunt, aside from Smashes, I only know that their Uair and Bair kill while Dair spikes.

Nair kills. Can and fair kill at higher percents. I think Uptilit kills, but I haven't used it much because of how narrow its hitbox is.

 

[Vincent21]

Speed doesnt mean much for duck hunts moves when you can't confirm anything, and you smashes are prone to slip outs. we're supposed to kill off reads but we can only reall y rely on aerials. Kinda.

Which is what led me to say what I said. Normally when I see Duck Hunts go for, or get, kills they're making a hard read and throwing a smash at it, and everything about that seems sub-optimal and difficult. They're slip out, the smashes feel slow (I say feel because I don't have memorized frame data to back that) and react-able, especially if the first bullet is whiffed, and so I always pictured the character as having trouble killing. I wonder why they don't go for stage chasing or aerial kills (he HAS to have some kind of uair confirm.... right?) often.

Jab is 6 frames, and only does as much damage as Doc's and has no Jab cancel followups. That is AWFUL when you consider the risk/reward for boxing.

U-smash might not be extremely slow, but at 11 frames it's hardly super fast. Does less damage, kills later than Mario's, depends on a sweetspot, and is not safe on block meaning it has to be set up. It's hardly a great move, and it doesn't make up for the rest of TL's moveset being bad.

TL's U-air in a vacuum isn't a bad move. Tell me how he ever lands this move against a good player outside of getting a lucky U-tilt. Zelda at least can set up her U-air after D-air or D-throw. What does TL even do to land U-air? His throw setups are awful and he has trouble covering people who jump back and aim to ledge reset.

And no, you didn't miss any changes. TL's moveset just sucks. Nerfed heavily from Brawl (D-air nerf especially sucks for him) and the ledge changes do him no favors when it means he literally cannot kill you for recovering low.

Yeah, I suppose that's all a pretty fair assessment. It's clear my first impressions weren't particularly well informed. How embarrassing.

But riddle me this. Whenever I played this character, while the suffering his crappy fair and throw options posed was really apparent and difficult up front, his neutral game actually seemed pretty reasonably maintainable sheerly because bombs create really useful interactions by producing pretty consistent player responses you could be prepared for and easily counter-adapt as they changed (people really only do three things, and you only need to see them make a change on one of your relatively safe bomb throws in order to know what they were trying now and respond accordingly).

What were players doing so wrong that I was getting results inconsistent with reality? Where is "bombs are really bomb" supposed to realistically end?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well you're not really disproving anything I'm saying. As I said, TL's entire game hinges on Bombs.

And as Ganon, I will gladly shield against him for 90% of the match when I know I can theoretically end his stock in like 5 hits once I randomly predict either an unsafe aerial or grab, and when his grab and edgeguards are still laughably bad.

 

[Vincent21]

Well you're not really disproving anything I'm saying. As I said, TL's entire game hinges on Bombs.

And as Ganon, I will gladly shield against him for 90% of the match when I know I can theoretically end his stock in like 5 hits, and when his grab and edgeguards are still laughably bad.

But what I was saying is that hinging on bombs actually isn't terrible. I mean when I've narrowed you down to shielding 90% of the time, it gives me a pretty good read on what you're going to be doing 9/10 times when I approach you which means my tools don't have to be particularly stellar to start racking on you. But yeah it often doesn't matter who I'm playing. Risk Reward v Ganon always feels absurdly skewed even in matches it seems like he should really struggle in just because of how little he needs to do to be vastly rewarded. There is something to be said for being a punching bag with monstrous damage values.

 

[Ikes]

lets talk about low tier matchups.

how about G&W vs Robin?
Ganon vs Jiggly?

 

[Djent]

Hey @ Djent , why no StaticManny or even any Sonic in top 8?

Smooth Criminal

Just the way the brackets align, really. I think StaticManny and 6WX both have really rough pools, and their projected brackets are no easier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lets talk about low tier matchups.

how about G&W vs Robin?
Ganon vs Jiggly?

Ganon vs Jiggs is even. Ganon actually wins neutral due to N-air and D-tilt being really hard for Jiggs to contest directly, but Jiggs still has really good edgeguards on him + Rest punishes are not exceptionally hard to land for randomly shielding something in close range. In customs with Dark Fists and WDK it's clearly Ganon's favor when he can't be gimped as easily.

 

[Lavani]

Jab is 6 frames, and only does as much damage as Doc's and has no Jab cancel followups. That is AWFUL when you consider the risk/reward for boxing.

Toon Link isn't a character I know much about, but I know jab1>dsmash at least starts registering as a combo on Sheik in training around 164%, which I would imagine means it functions at more acceptable percentages with rage factored in.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Ganon vs Jiggs is even. Ganon actually wins neutral due to N-air and D-tilt being really hard for Jiggs to contest directly, but Jiggs still has really good edgeguards on him + Rest punishes are not exceptionally hard to land for randomly shielding something in close range. In customs with Dark Fists and WDK it's clearly Ganon's favor when he can't be gimped as easily.

Yeah, I play a lot with a jiggs main, and it feels like it's in Ganondorf's favor until he's off-stage. Then his stocks will just disappear. I'd also say it's about even, considering jiggs can die to a missed flame choke tech at 90 or 100 with any rage at all.

 

[Ikes]

does zard's bthrow still follow up into fair (and possibly fair x2)?

I couldnt ever possibly believe he's a bad character. He's got throw followups, crazy kill power, and one of the best kill throws in the game. I cant see him being below mid tier (and I honestly think he could be upper mid).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lets talk about low tier matchups.

how about G&W vs Robin?
Ganon vs Jiggly?

I think G&W totally ****s on Robin.

 

[Radical Larry]

@NachoOfCheese What can I say? I actually changed and got more serious (now that I started playing Link and Mac).

Truth be told, however, Mewtwo is held back with its low weight and floaty nature, which would be good if some opponents just didn't have those absurd KO moves (Ganondorf, Bowser, Dedede and Mac are examples). It's a severe hindrance to it, and if heavies have rage on them, Mewtwo players would need to get that KO quick or they will be KO'd quick.

@ Ikes Ganondorf vs Jigglypuff isn't much of a low tier MU, but a mid-tier. However, I say Ganondorf wins, because Jigglypuff hates Rage. Once Ganondorf hits Rage, you need to KO him early, or he can literally KO you at 0% with a total of 3 attacks by then (Warlock Punch, Flame Choke Suicide and U-Tilt Shield Break). Plus, Ganondorf has more range and disjoint on his attacks than Jigglypuff, and trying to use U-Air below Ganondorf means you want to be KO'd quickly.

 

[Speed Boost]

Mario is a good character, but I don't think he'll make top 8 this time. Ally is not going, so there's that. ANTi seems to have more confidence in his Luigi than anything. And he has to get through some ridiculous players (Manny in pools, likely Nairo in QF, then NickRiddle or Shaky in losers).

Well without Ally he probably won't have the representation to get top 8, you're right about that. Anti is talented but doesn't compete enough to make a deep run in my opinion. I didn't think he was even going.
I'm really hoping for a Nairo v Zero finals. With another Diddy nerf and how hot Nario has been lately I could see it being very competitive.

 

[wedl!!]

I think G&W totally ****s on Robin.

thats true for like every character though lmao

realtalk who does reflet even beat

 

[Smog Frog]

Well without Ally he probably won't have the representation to get top 8, you're right about that. Anti is talented but doesn't compete enough to make a deep run in my opinion. I didn't think he was even going.
I'm really hoping for a Nairo v Zero finals. With another Diddy nerf and how hot Nario has been lately I could see it being very competitive.

you gotta remember, zero has arguably the best in the world. he might be able to contest with his , but i think he's gonna get blown away by .

 

[Scarlet Jile]

No Ally at CEO or EVO? I hope he's at least going to EVO. Need more character variety.

 

[Speed Boost]

you gotta remember, zero has arguably the best in the world. he might be able to contest with his , but i think he's gonna get blown away by .

Well, a man can dream. The Sheik v ZSS matchup is tough for ZSS, but Nairo does have the Pits too. I've seen him go toe to toe with Zeros Sheik in friendlies before Bair got wrecked by 1.06. Not that Bair is gonna swing the matchup in Nairos favor but it's one less kill move.

If Nario can somehow get to Grands from the winner side of the bracket he can pull it off. I can see him getting some early kills with ZSS on Delfino and scratching a game or two out with Pit. I could at least see a path to victory for him and that's more than I can say for most the field.

 

[A2ZOMG]

thats true for like every character though lmao

realtalk who does reflet even beat

I'd probably believe someone for saying Robin is the worst character in the game, honestly. However he does really well against Bowser, DK, and DDD, who are too fat to easily get around Arcfire.

 

[wedl!!]

I'd probably believe someone for saying Robin is the worst character in the game, honestly. However he does really well against Bowser, DK, and DDD, who are too fat to easily get around Arcfire.

reflet is very close to the worst character in the game, but samus takes that title for now.

doesnt bowsers standing armor beat arcfire??? dk in customs totally wins because of cyclone and d3 is too bad at footsies to win.

 

[A2ZOMG]

reflet is very close to the worst character in the game, but samus takes that title for now.

doesnt bowsers standing armor beat arcfire??? dk in customs totally wins because of cyclone and d3 is too bad at footsies to win.

Samus doesn't have a crappy recovery (rather she has one of the best recoveries in the game, actually while Robin's is one of the worst), and Charge Shot > Thunder. She does suffer from the usual tether grab troubles, though she does have a few legitimate throw combos, a Z-air, a really AMAZING Dash attack, and Up-B out of shield. I'd easily believe Samus is a better character, if only slightly. Zelda at any rate definitely is not the worst character in singles after her buffs. Probably wasn't considering all of Robin's glaring problems, but noticeably improved aerials can't be ignored on Zelda who still has some of the most outrageous punishes in the game when she's given an opportunity.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lucas isn't really comparable to Ness though despite their visual similarities. Lucas' PK Fire is a tool to follow-up to zair or to catch people upon landing and leads into a further follow up. Once people stop looking for Ness 2.0 in Lucas they'll probably realize that the character is fine the way he is.

I think the problem with Lucas is his moveset doesn't really come together to well. His approach is really bad and his grab is slow. He has grab follow-ups but they're ruined by DI. He doesn't have moves that leads to grabs like Ness or Luigi. That's why I say his moveset doesn't really come together. If he had Ness's pk fire I think he'd be a lot better.

I haven't seen anything of him to change my opinion on him. But yeah if he wasn't so reliant on grabs or had moves that set up his grabs he'd be a lot better.

 

[Nu~]

/
It is kinda hard to find a more fundamentally flawed character. Big dead zone in front of their face, some of the worst mobility specs in the game, slow projectiles, awful approach, poor ways to force approaches, terrible recovery...

Well, at least Robin's frame data isn't too bad (outside of smashes) he/she has great range as well.

Don't really fear him/her.
Pac-Man can still sit behind the trampoline and Power pellet every projectile (except thoron...that pac-man can taunt under lol) or throw keys through every projectile Robin has.
Or just F-air a hydrant at Robin to block all of their projectiles while Pac approaches.

Of course there is more to this matchup, but in general, Robin can't scare Pac-Man very much in neutral.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Robin's pretty effective for being "the worst character". Not too far behind Ganon in terms of raw punish strength. Great edgeguards. Spacing normals by all means are practical even if none of them really do anything in midrange. Thoron once fully charged is able to force people to play more carefully even at long range and Robin can hit confirm into early kills with both Arcfire and Arcthunder. Even benefits from item tossing (can kill people with it) and has a command grab!

But yeah, Robin's weaknesses compared to other characters are just really, really obvious and glaring. Especially the weak midrange and bad recovery. Several characters can just camp or rush him down and he doesn't really have ways to control people in midrange to discourage that reliably other than getting Thoron charged.

 

[Smog Frog]

except... has a move that can set up a grab. it's called zair. that can set up many other things, too!

also, can function off a campy sort of style. zair and pk fire go a long way in that regard.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

except... has a move that can set up a grab. it's called zair. that can set up many other things, too!

also, can function off a campy sort of style. zair and pk fire go a long way in that regard.

....Zair yay! How could I forget about that move.

 

[Blobface]

Is it just me or do the heavies level up in a little bit of lag? I have trouble against good Ganondorfs online when there is even a little lag. I find myself getting hit by stuff I don't normally get hit by. It goes without saying Ganon is not a character you want to be sloppy against.

I've had similar issues with Ike, Bowser and DK to a lessor extent. Do yall have the same issues against these characters in lag?

Heavies in general, and especially Ganon benefit a lot from even slight lag. They get so much more reward off of "things that shouldn't of hit" than other characters, and they themselves have a very low technical skill ceiling (as in, making inputs).

 

[Radical Larry]

Robin is still decent against characters like Samus, but boy, Samus has that annoying projectile game, which can be countered by a lot of characters who have projectiles/reflectors.

Heavies in general, and especially Ganon benefit a lot from even slight lag. They get so much more reward off of "things that shouldn't of hit" than other characters, and they themselves have a very low technical skill ceiling (as in, making inputs).

So that's why my Ganon is next to unbeatable with lag in FG.

 

[Speed Boost]

Heavies in general, and especially Ganon benefit a lot from even slight lag. They get so much more reward off of "things that shouldn't of hit" than other characters, and they themselves have a very low technical skill ceiling (as in, making inputs).

It's comforting to know I'm not the only one who thinks so. I still feel like a scrub when I loose to them though

 

[Radical Larry]

It's comforting to know I'm not the only one who thinks so. I still feel like a scrub when I loose to them though

Little Mac benefits from lag a bit...mine at least.
It's hilarious to really see that characters lose to heavies, as well as Macs, just because of lag.

 

[Kofu]

I think G&W totally ****s on Robin.

Game & Watch only has to fear Levin aerials from my experience. They're huge, kind of linger, deal heavy damage and knockback (brutal against Game & Watch's low weight) and IIRC are transcendent which is actually a good thing when challenging Game & Watch's moveset.

 

[TriTails]

On another topic. We should all know what are the better customs by now (Generally). But the next question arrives, which customs are the worst?

IMO?

FIERY JUMP PUNCH

Despite of everything that might be bizarre I have wrote until now about Luigi (I'm being honest. Plz don't hurt me), THIS custom is a straight downgrade. Try it on and you'll know this custom is one of the worst move in the game.

Crappy reward on hit for the risk, height loss nerfs recovery even more, unfavorable angle, no end lag reductions, bigger sweetspot's almost unnoticeable, and isn't a shoryuken considering on how weak it is and doesn't ping :/.

 

[Ikes]

On another topic. We should all know what are the better customs by now (Generally). But the next question arrives, which customs are the worst?

IMO?

FIERY JUMP PUNCH

Despite of everything that might be bizarre I have wrote until now about Luigi (I'm being honest. Plz don't hurt me), THIS custom is a straight downgrade. Try it on and you'll know this custom is one of the worst move in the game.

Crappy reward on hit for the risk, height loss nerfs recovery even more, unfavorable angle, no end lag reductions, bigger sweetspot's almost unnoticeable, and isn't a shoryuken considering on how weak it is and doesn't ping :/.

Guard breaker

gimps little macs recovery even more, is slower, and its only upside is going through shields. Pressing b wont even throw the punch quicker. Maybe not the -worst- but i cant see much application for it especially since it makes him even easier to KO

Also Widescrew seems totally useless, Wario's recovery already has decent horizontal coverage.

Light bike also seems awful, since if i remember correctly it cant be turned around, and has much less HP and damage making it an awful projectile to be thrown.

Luigi's Bouncing Fireball, while basically mario's fireball, is a poor choice since luigis fireballs are just straight up better. As what seems to be a direct downgrade from stock, id say this counts.

Rose scented waft just seems terrible.