Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Actually, I would just keep Luigi's grab reward and mobility the same but give him a tether grab with the Poltergust 3000.

Now that I think about it, a ranged tether grab probably would solve a lot of matchup specific problems for Luigi while being a pretty appropriate nerf to his Fireball trap.

 

[Kofu]

Luigi either needs more endlag on Fireball or grabs. That's about it IMO.

 

[mimgrim]

@ Ffamran @Asdioh thanks. I've heard people say how stupid and broken Sheik is, but I see that if you play a good defensive game, she's not too bad to deal with. Just gotta be fast (no pun intended )

What happens when a Sheik plays a good defensive game though. Optimal Sheik isn't aggressive Sheik. It's campy Sheik. She honestly doesn't need to approach.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Now that I think about it, a ranged tether grab probably would solve a lot of matchup specific problems for Luigi while being a pretty appropriate nerf to his Fireball trap.

I'm trying to imagine a grab that works off of a windbox and all I can think of is if Dedede or Kirby could spit in any of the 4 directions instead of just forward.

How is Rosalina's representation in Japan? If people are wondering why she hasn't been touched much since 1.0.4 it may be that Sakurai just doesn't see her placing all that high and thus she's under his radar.

 

[DblCrest]

Luma got more health for the latest patch though apparently. It was lowered recently but I guess that's a moot point if he still gets knocked off the stage so easily.


Unrelated note Ryu's Fair is ridonkulous.

 

[Ffamran]

Look. My character is the perfect juggling basketball because he literally has zero move that hits downward. Combine that with his 2nd slowest airspeed AND floatiness.

Nair is a sex kick that surrounds Luigi with a hitbox and comes out a frame 3. With customs, you also have Burying Headbutt. Along with Dair, that's 3 moves that can hit downwards. There is no character in this game without a move that hits downwards, but there are few characters with moves that hit in more than one direction much less surrounds their hurtbox with a hitbox and very quickly like Luigi's Nair.

Rosalina is also a floaty with average, but not slow air speed. Her floatiness allows her to escape combos since most of the cast don't have Falco, Jump Art Shulk, Greninja, or ZSS's high jumps. Or take Kirby who also has slow air speed and is floaty. Same dealio.

Luigi runs barely faster than Falco (The difference is almost negligible). He can crawl, so what? Ain't gonna do a squat other than Fox MU. His floatiness isn't going to help him because he gets juggled hella back. Oh, and also, Falco has better mobility because aerial specs + Phantasm.

Luigi, Ike, Samus, Wario, Kirby, Mii Swordfighter, and Lucas are just right below average speed of Mario and Ryu. Falco, Olimar, and more are just right under with Falco and Kirby's being more notable because unlike Luigi, Olimar, Samus, and Wario, they lack any means to safely approach or force approaches. High jumps, multi-jumps, and good walking speeds - Falco's that is - don't do much when it comes to raw horizontal movement.

Crawling at least gives Luigi another movement option alongside basic movement options like running, walking, foxtrotting, dash dancing, perfect pivots, short hops, full hops, and burst movements through Luigi Missile (customs) and Luigi Cyclone. How effective it is depends on the character, but having an option is good, especially when few characters have that option.

Falco's aerial specs are fast fall speed which bites him back as all fast faller feel unless they have insane air speed or a quick aerial to throw out, poor air speed, and a high jump. That's good vertical mobility, but poor horizontal mobility. For ground options, he only has a fast walk speed, a below average run speed, and Falco Phantasm's butchered hitbox makes it less safe than Fox Illusion or even the random Luigi Cyclone. This is all compounded by the fact Falco's approach is *** compared to the entire cast. He can't tank things like Ganondorf and Bowser, he can't camp you like Sonic or Sheik, he can't do hit and runs like Fox, he can't cover his approach like Luigi and Yoshi, he can't cover retreating force approaches like Mario and Mega Man, he can't control the stage like Duck Hunt or Pac-Man, he can't throw out safe moves like Sheik, he can't even snipe off huge rewards like Zelda, and he definitely can't bum rush like Captain Falcon or Meta Knight. Bait his Reflector if you have projectiles, camp him out, and force him to approach or punish his approaches and Falco is one dead, pathetic pheasant.

Luigi struggles to get in on possibly half of his MUs (Or at least, annoying). If he doesn't have the whole 'I get lotsa damage when I get in', then he'd be just a worse Mario clone.

That's better that struggling with almost every MU. You don't know pain until you've had Zelda force approaches and effectively punish because Falco's too slow to bypass Nayru's Love. Luigi has a usable projectile like Toon Link, Link, Fox, Rosalina, Mega Man, Sheik, Diddy, Samus, Mewtwo, Lucario, Ness, Lucas, and more. That alone lets him play at a safe distance and at distances of his choosing. Falco only has two: up close or at the character select screen.

Most of the cast does the "I get lotsa damage when I get in". Fox, Falco, Peach, Sheik, Meta Knight, Ganondorf, Roy, Marth, Lucina, Pit, Palutena, Diddy, Donkey Kong, Robin, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Ryu, Greninja, Ness, Lucas, etc. There's few characters that do a ton of damage when they're away. Duck Hunt, Snake, and Brawl Falco come to mind as those few. Even Rosalina can't since she puts Luma there or Olimar who doesn't exactly have mega range.

Comparing him to Falco is, tbh and imo, silly. Both characters play very differently.

I was giving an example of a character whose attributes hurt him. Do you want me to talk about Ike, Ganondorf, Bowser, or Fox?

Oh, what's that? You want to nerf his damage output? Then give me this medicine that boost my mobility to compensate for that. Hell, if you nerf his damage output it'd straight up ruins his entire combos because he relies on hitstun, which is determined by damage.

Did I say I want Luigi to only do 1% out of grab and throw? They are few, but there are characters who aren't mobile, but still can kill well and reliably and rack up damage very quickly. Ness and Lucas come to mind along with Luigi.

The main point is how to keep Luigi's damage output and throw game, but toning it down and hell, we might not need to tone those down as my other patch speculah post suggested. Sometimes it might be better to leave one character alone and strengthen others. The main complaint about Luigi (and Sheik) is how low risk and high reward they are. Luigi getting everything off of D-throw is what irks people while it was the absurd power of Uair and D-throw setting it up that annoyed people with Diddy. That's a reason why you have people calling Luigi "braindead" because he gets combos, juggles, spike setups, jab locks, and kill confirms off of one throw.

People suggest making the end lag on grab more so Luigi can get punished for making mistakes or the end lag on Fireball, but I'm a bit against that since end lag kills as evident with Falco and his 58 frames - 49 if you use it in the air - of end lag on Blaster. Perhaps lower clank stun instead to allow people to time a "parry". One thing that I thought of was making Luigi's other throws be able to combo and make his D-throw only be able to combo into less options while still being able to have strong options. This could turn Luigi into a grappling trickster and force the opponent to guess which throw and DI'ing incorrectly could let Luigi punish hard. So, U-throw still kills, but allows Luigi to Uair, Nair, Luigi Cyclone at low to mid-percents, and even Super Jump Punch if he reads it right, F-throw is open to Fair, RAR Bair, and run under Up Smash, D-throw is open to Nair, Uair, Dair, Luigi Cyclone, and Super Jump Punch reads. It's giving Luigi more options, but making it so Luigi has to plan and pick his options.

After all, other than his combos, what else he has? Fastest attack speed and good damage output? Combined by his bottom 5 mobility? No. I ain't gonna punching a thing with that.

A lot of other characters also have fast attacks speed and good damage output. Mario, Sheik, Fox, Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Yoshi, Falco, Peach, Sonic, etc. It's certain things like if and what are their hit confirms, how their moves function, how they move and flow, and what goes against them that defines them.

In terms of bottom 5 mobility, Ganondorf, Robin, Dr. Mario, Triple D, and Zelda already have that covered.

 

[Radical Larry]

@Zelder My Little Mac will kind of make you want to vomit out of rage.

@ Ffamran In terms of bottom five mobility, Luigi and Falco are nice contenders due to their pitiful aerial movement, and Luigi has some sub-par movement in his grounded movement, so does Falco.

Ganondorf might not have the best mobility, but in customs, that just changes and he has some of the best mobility with WizDrop and Flame Chain. And Doc's mobilities (ground and aerial) aren't that bad, but I agree with Robin, Zelda and D3. Personally, my bottom five would be, customs on or off:

/(Shield Art)

But I got a good joke for this thread. What's white and gray and has their crap in a wad with Roy? Oh yeah, the Eventhubs Tier List, where they rank Roy in first place. Just...how? He might be good, but he's not that great to be number one.

 

[FullMoon]

I still wonder why people still bother to even mention Event Hubs by now.

 

[TriTails]

Nair is a sex kick that surrounds Luigi with a hitbox and comes out a frame 3. With customs, you also have Burying Headbutt. Along with Dair, that's 3 moves that can hit downwards. There is no character in this game without a move that hits downwards, but there are few characters with moves that hit in more than one direction much less surrounds their hurtbox with a hitbox and very quickly like Luigi's Nair.

D-air doesn't hit downwards. At least, not very well. It's fairly short-ranged and is too short to be used to challenge thsoe below him. Good luck challenging Rosalina's U-air, Falcon's U-air, *Insert tons of U-airs here* with that.

N-air surrounds Luigi with hitbox, but again, it has lackuster hitbox below him. Combined with his floatiness, it's fairly hard to surprise people with it.

Burial Header literally give you a warning to move away because Luigi jumps up and make that jump punch sound. You land with it, get grabbed, U-throw'd, go back to start. No invincibility at the fall either.

And why people just don't take to the air? Instead, predict his landing because of his aerial mobility is lel and he is floaty at the same time. He get above you, you U-smash, he go back to start. Landing on the stage isn't much of an option when people have U-smashes. Double jumping doesn't work either. His only option is resetting to the ledge, which is fairly punishable.

Luigi, Ike, Samus, Wario, Kirby, Mii Swordfighter, and Lucas are just right below average speed of Mario and Ryu. Falco, Olimar, and more are just right under with Falco and Kirby's being more notable because unlike Luigi, Olimar, Samus, and Wario, they lack any means to safely approach or force approaches. High jumps, multi-jumps, and good walking speeds - Falco's that is - don't do much when it comes to raw horizontal movement.

Crawling at least gives Luigi another movement option alongside basic movement options like running, walking, foxtrotting, dash dancing, perfect pivots, short hops, full hops, and burst movements through Luigi Missile (customs) and Luigi Cyclone. How effective it is depends on the character, but having an option is good, especially when few characters have that option.

Got your point.

Falco's aerial specs are fast fall speed which bites him back as all fast faller feel unless they have insane air speed or a quick aerial to throw out, poor air speed, and a high jump. That's good vertical mobility, but poor horizontal mobility. For ground options, he only has a fast walk speed, a below average run speed, and Falco Phantasm's butchered hitbox makes it less safe than Fox Illusion or even the random Luigi Cyclone. This is all compounded by the fact Falco's approach is *** compared to the entire cast. He can't tank things like Ganondorf and Bowser, he can't camp you like Sonic or Sheik, he can't do hit and runs like Fox, he can't cover his approach like Luigi and Yoshi, he can't cover retreating force approaches like Mario and Mega Man, he can't control the stage like Duck Hunt or Pac-Man, he can't throw out safe moves like Sheik, he can't even snipe off huge rewards like Zelda, and he definitely can't bum rush like Captain Falcon or Meta Knight. Bait his Reflector if you have projectiles, camp him out, and force him to approach or punish his approaches and Falco is one dead, pathetic pheasant.

I wouldn't call Falco's air speed 'poor'. He has the same airspeed as Pit, which sits at 0.893. Compare that to Luigi's which is like... 0.734xx.... Falco's almost broke through 0.9 while Luigi barely even reach 0.75. That's a huge difference there.

And I wouldn't say Falco Phantasm is less safe than Luigi Cyclone. The former is faster, and doesn't leave the user hanging for like 2.5 seconds at the end and is harder to punish (Unless you are fighting Sonic, CF, you name them). And it works as a burst mobility in the air.

Wouldn't Blaster's existence basically force some character to approach Falco though? Ganon and Shulk, for example. The move's booty in real use, but from long range it's actually quite decent, even when factoring the whole 1 second of commitment.

I agree on Falco's approaches being bad though.

That's better that struggling with almost every MU. You don't know pain until you've had Zelda force approaches and effectively punish because Falco's too slow to bypass Nayru's Love. Luigi has a usable projectile like Toon Link, Link, Fox, Rosalina, Mega Man, Sheik, Diddy, Samus, Mewtwo, Lucario, Ness, Lucas, and more. That alone lets him play at a safe distance and at distances of his choosing. Falco only has two: up close or at the character select screen.

Not much when things like Sheik's needles, ROB's lazers, or Link's bombs go through Fireballs though. Reflectors can also mess up Luigi's game as hitting it can cause like... 8-9%? And even if he doesn't, he has to shield, which is bascially the reverse scenario of him approaching with them.

Most of the cast does the "I get lotsa damage when I get in". Fox, Falco, Peach, Sheik, Meta Knight, Ganondorf, Roy, Marth, Lucina, Pit, Palutena, Diddy, Donkey Kong, Robin, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Ryu, Greninja, Ness, Lucas, etc. There's few characters that do a ton of damage when they're away. Duck Hunt, Snake, and Brawl Falco come to mind as those few. Even Rosalina can't since she puts Luma there or Olimar who doesn't exactly have mega range.

Most of the characters you listed either have longer range/disjoints, plain strong-*** attacks, better apporaches, and/or better mobility. Luigi's Fireballs aren't unbeatable, and he can only approach with it so much when it comes on MUs that forces him to approach becaus he can't force them with his Fireballs. Some characters can punish it (ZSS, Diddy, Sheik come to mind), reflect it to mess up his game (Falco, Mario, *Insert reflectors here), or just plain run to it and PUNISH Luigi's end lag (Sonic. Bleep him when he just run to one Fireball that was just shot, end up in my face, and kicks me with F-tilt).

Did I say I want Luigi to only do 1% out of grab and throw? They are few, but there are characters who aren't mobile, but still can kill well and reliably and rack up damage very quickly. Ness and Lucas come to mind along with Luigi.

The main point is how to keep Luigi's damage output and throw game, but toning it down and hell, we might not need to tone those down as my other patch speculah post suggested. Sometimes it might be better to leave one character alone and strengthen others. The main complaint about Luigi (and Sheik) is how low risk and high reward they are. Luigi getting everything off of D-throw is what irks people while it was the absurd power of Uair and D-throw setting it up that annoyed people with Diddy. That's a reason why you have people calling Luigi "braindead" because he gets combos, juggles, spike setups, jab locks, and kill confirms off of one throw.

Luigi is 'braindead' if you let him to. Fireballs are free if you let them to. His combos are easy if you let them to. Yeah, I know that he often just get something like 'Wow I get 40% off one grab', but that IF he gets the grab. Getting the grab may be laughably easy on some MUs, but on top tiers? You have to read their options, read their DI, etc.

Luigi's killing setups are nowhere near the levels of original Hoo Hah. It basically can kill at like 90-100%. Luigi's can kill at around 130% (B-air), and 90~% (Cyclone). OK. I know you all might cringe at 90% at Cyclone, but that is without DI. You can SDI it to not let Luigi rise too high and the result often end up in him killing at 130% or later. What? You fall off it? Jump up and U-air him ASAP. You just successfully turned a disadvantage to an advantage. Not really the case with Diddy.

People suggest making the end lag on grab more so Luigi can get punished for making mistakes or the end lag on Fireball, but I'm a bit against that since end lag kills as evident with Falco and his 58 frames - 49 if you use it in the air - of end lag on Blaster. Perhaps lower clank stun instead to allow people to time a "parry". One thing that I thought of was making Luigi's other throws be able to combo and make his D-throw only be able to combo into less options while still being able to have strong options. This could turn Luigi into a grappling trickster and force the opponent to guess which throw and DI'ing incorrectly could let Luigi punish hard. So, U-throw still kills, but allows Luigi to Uair, Nair, Luigi Cyclone at low to mid-percents, and even Super Jump Punch if he reads it right, F-throw is open to Fair, RAR Bair, and run under Up Smash, D-throw is open to Nair, Uair, Dair, Luigi Cyclone, and Super Jump Punch reads. It's giving Luigi more options, but making it so Luigi has to plan and pick his options.

U-throw is actually just underrated. U-throw + Rev. U-air + B-air works. U-throw + U-air + N-air (Not gauranteed, but still) works on fast-fallers and you can get a grab afterwards. Oh, and grab release combos into jab.

I agree on your idea though. Make that F-throw worth our time so people have to guess which way to DI instead of auto-pilotting DI up everytime you get grabbed at low percents.

And also, dash grab when spotdodged, can be punished. Or you can shorthop over it.

A lot of other characters also have fast attacks speed and good damage output. Mario, Sheik, Fox, Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Yoshi, Falco, Peach, Sonic, etc. It's certain things like if and what are their hit confirms, how their moves function, how they move and flow, and what goes against them that defines them.

In terms of bottom 5 mobility, Ganondorf, Robin, Dr. Mario, Triple D, and Zelda already have that covered.

Mobility doesn't simply factoring dashing/air speed. Falling speed, burst mobility, fast-falling speed, etc are also counted. Alright, maybe Luigi's mobility is not bottom 5, but bottom 10. Simply on how he has the worst aerial mobility (Falling speed and changing directions bruh), and his burst mobility isn't good without customs (Cyclone isn't fast enough). All he has is dashing speed, which... is fairly less important than airspeed because 3/4th of the game you are going to be in the air.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

@Zelder My Little Mac will kind of make you want to vomit out of rage.

@ Ffamran In terms of bottom five mobility, Luigi and Falco are nice contenders due to their pitiful aerial movement, and Luigi has some sub-par movement in his grounded movement, so does Falco.

Ganondorf might not have the best mobility, but in customs, that just changes and he has some of the best mobility with WizDrop and Flame Chain. And Doc's mobilities (ground and aerial) aren't that bad, but I agree with Robin, Zelda and D3. Personally, my bottom five would be, customs on or off:

/(Shield Art)

But I got a good joke for this thread. What's white and gray and has their crap in a wad with Roy? Oh yeah, the Eventhubs Tier List, where they rank Roy in first place. Just...how? He might be good, but he's not that great to be number one.

Yeah with Eventhhubs logic isn't it OBVIOUS that Captain falcon is number one? I mean, his name has 2 words in it. That's pretty OP.

Anyways, one thing I noticed about Ryu that I think is the one thing keeping him in check: Literally no aerial mobility. And I'm not talking air speed, he has plenty of that. I mean the fact that if you jump forward with Fair, you literally cannot pull back to safety. Every time you move in the air it's a commitment, and that's rlly not my playstyle.

 

[shadowmm151]

I still wonder why people still bother to even mention Event Hubs by now.

Good question. It IS hilarious though.

@1......................the hype is real.
@7......................ditto.
@14....................WTF!?
@22....................haha no way he's not top 5...maybe top 7.
@25....................really?
@45....................don't get me wrong...I hate the guy, but he's easily top 15-20.
@46....................lol yeah no.
@51....................2nd from the bottom...he's like top 5 in Japan...

There are other dumb placements, but these are the worst ones that really made me laugh.

 

[Minordeth]

On Greninja, yeah, I know that footstool combos are not being utilized, but seriously...

What bothers me most about the vast majority of Greninjas that I see are that they seem to fail to utilize Hydro Pump as a legit momentum breaker. Like, you have a projectile that you can not only aim, but it stalls recovery attempts and botches jumps. How is this not being used more?

 

[Speed Boost]

Does anyone share in my disappoinment that Diddy was nerfed so heavily? They should have left him alone after 1.06. He was still one of the best characters, but he wasn't overpowered anymore. Now his UAir doesn't even kill, and he has to rely on bananna setups and high percentage throws.

I don't think this second nerf had anything to do with balance. They just wanted to force the top players to win with something else.

 

[Minordeth]

Diddy still has his absurd Fair. That's not even including his strong frame data. Banana still exists, too. I believe Diddy is still top 10, maybe even top 5. He was nerfed hard, sure, but he is still a fantastic character.

 

[Smog Frog]

as long as has his banana he's top 10. was top 5 based almost entirely on banana play(yes his bananas are much weaker but doesnt make them any less key in top play of the character)

 

[shadowmm151]

Diddy still has his absurd Fair. That's not even including his strong frame data. Banana still exists, too. I believe Diddy is still top 10, maybe even top 5. He was nerfed hard, sure, but he is still a fantastic character.

Definitely not top 5 and I think top 10 might be pushing it too. He'll likely find his home in the top 15-20. It's hard to judge because the whole tier list is going to shift around with the recent patch plus the new characters. A lot of people think is top 10 and that is top 15. Also, people keep claiming has a place near in the tier list (#5) so he could make top 15-20. Customs are looking to be how we'll play in the future and that too will shift the tier list. Not to mention all the buffs some characters received this patch. Don't get me wrong, the patch doesn't suddenly put them into higher tiers, but it will get more people to play with them ( especially) and with this extra representation the list might shift again.

So after the smoke has cleared I wouldn't be surprised to find in the top 20. I mean, it sounds weird to say because he's still a viable character and the nerfs he got didn't completely change who he is, but look who'll be above him...

These 5 DEFINITELY.
I feel these 5 are also very likely over him too. (Say what you want about , but he gets results).
Add in 2 other shoe ins plus the much agreed about plus the dlcs and our favorite chimp is sitting outside of 15.

Obviously this isn't fact, it's opinion (plus we have no honest clue where the dlc kids'll be), but you need to keep in mind there are other solid characters like who people always seem to rank high that I didn't include. I'm not even considering the characters who were buffed this patch either.

My point is that is still solid, but to say he's top "whatever" implies who he's ahead of and behind. is still solid, but now he takes a lot of work to use. He'll probably drop really low at first, but once all the punks who only picked him up to win end up dropping him, the real mains will pick him back up to a respectable level around top 15 by fleshing out an actual game plan with him.

 

[Jaxas]

D-air doesn't hit downwards. At least, not very well. It's fairly short-ranged and is too short to be used to challenge thsoe below him. Good luck challenging Rosalina's U-air, Falcon's U-air, *Insert tons of U-airs here* with that.

Just going to point out that basically nothing can challenge Rosalina's Uair (Falcon's is difficult to challenge in general as well), and that as a whole this game has way better Uairs than Dairs almost across the whole board.
It's pretty rare for characters to be able to challenge below them well at all; Luigi's not particularly bad at it compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Yonder]

So, I felt like updating my tier list again from long ago, here's a more current version, now with DLC! I quoted my old tier list below my new one for comparisons

Top tier:

High tier: [customs]

Upper Middle tier:

Lower Middle tier:

Low tier: [default]

Not ranked:

So there it is, explaining a few drops and rises...


Diddy of course with the necessary nerf 1 and unnecessary nerf 2 was dethroned as best, but a very good character still with nanners and mobility but a loss of kill power, lots of tricks up with this monkey. Only time will tell if Zero will stick to him.

Ryu really only has room to grow, virtually perfect asides a "meh" recovery and a less than perfect projectile. Just wait until people learn how to use the incredible special move known as focus attack to his maximum. Or become street fighter input gods lol.

Rob has taken a drop. He is very good due to amazing camping game, usable but not great recovery, but suffers due to losing his kill throw. D throw to uair is still legit though. He also gets eaten alive in certain matchups though requiring a secondary [Good luck vs Fox or Sheik].

Mac upon further evaluation really can be scarier than I thought before. Super armor smashes are literal life savers, and beat the tar out of close up brawlers [Luigi, for example]. D tilt to ko punch is still legit, and he's seeing a bit more results.

Kirby I feel like his combos are in the higher echelon of the game, you can perform so much out of a grab, dair, u tilt, etc. He has great kill power and nice customs too. Don't forget how deadly Kirby is when he gets a hold of a good projectile. But he's still slow and lacks range. Kind of reminds me of a worse Luigi in a way.

Falco goes up in this tier list due to the latest patch really helping him with his combo game in the air by linking uairs. It made a big difference for someone who prefers the air.

MK makes a big rise due to the latest patch also, less ending lag off a jab, some other move I don't remember, and a new...ok kill move in f tilt was a nice gift.

Game and Watch + WFT show movement upwards thanks to more time I've spent with them. Game and Watch remains one of the greatest edgeguarding kings but gets held back by rage big time, WFT jumbo hoops are that good along with great mobility, a great crawl, and projectiles can really be spammed.

Originally I said Mewtwo was better than Lucas, but I threw the idea around in my mind, Lucas won by a hair because of...well, zair and weight.

Charizard makes a small rise due to those amazing combo and killing throws now. Still suffers from being big and landing lag though, lots of it.

Swordsman has Trela showing some results and has been getting buffs a lot through the patches, I expect only more of a rise from him.

Robin suffers perhaps the biggest drop due to just being so horribly slow, projectiles aren't that spammable unless you have speed thunder to help a little bit, even then there's still tome recharge times and levin sword recharge times which hold him back. Elwind is really easy to gimp too. I just see so little from Robin, only reason he's higher than Samus is due to explosive kill power from levin sword.

Lucina in the end is just outclassed and I really see no point in placing these kind of character higher [like Doc] when their original is just flat out superior. At least if you're crazy enough to choose Doc over Mario in competitive play [well, Doc may be more fun imo...] Doc has kill power over Mario.

I forgot Zelda last list but she has her rightful place on my list: dead last. Slow, predictable, hard to land hits, and I can't think of much positives from her except her smashes are strong and farores wind kills deceptively low.

Roy I didn't rank because I didn't download him. I'd think high tier though from a outside perspective due to ridiculous speed and power. He looks to make Marth look pointless at least so far.

Pit and Lame Pit are the jack of all trades [sides amazing recovery] and master of none. I don't see them moving at all.

Fire away! there's 50+ characters in the game, I'm sure to have misplaced some...

I've been siliently editing for a while on microsoft word my own little tier list. I'll post what I have so far.

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper Middle tier:

Lower Middle tier:

Low tier: [Default]
Not ranked: [Customs]



Of note:

may be surpassed in the future by or if his recovery is exploited enough. Or his HOO HAA throw gets patched That's all it'll take.

[Left that here because I called it.].

 

[FullMoon]

ROB didn't really lose a kill throw, it just doesn't kill as early.

It still kills earlier than Greninja's even.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

So, I felt like updating my tier list again from long ago, here's a more current version, now with DLC! I quoted my old tier list below my new one for comparisons

Top tier:

High tier: [customs]

Upper Middle tier:

Lower Middle tier:

Low tier: [default]

Not ranked:

So there it is, explaining a few drops and rises...


Diddy of course with the necessary nerf 1 and unnecessary nerf 2 was dethroned as best, but a very good character still with nanners and mobility but a loss of kill power, lots of tricks up with this monkey. Only time will tell if Zero will stick to him.

Ryu really only has room to grow, virtually perfect asides a "meh" recovery and a less than perfect projectile. Just wait until people learn how to use the incredible special move known as focus attack to his maximum. Or become street fighter input gods lol.

Rob has taken a drop. He is very good due to amazing camping game, usable but not great recovery, but suffers due to losing his kill throw. D throw to uair is still legit though. He also gets eaten alive in certain matchups though requiring a secondary [Good luck vs Fox or Sheik].

Mac upon further evaluation really can be scarier than I thought before. Super armor smashes are literal life savers, and beat the tar out of close up brawlers [Luigi, for example]. D tilt to ko punch is still legit, and he's seeing a bit more results.

Kirby I feel like his combos are in the higher echelon of the game, you can perform so much out of a grab, dair, u tilt, etc. He has great kill power and nice customs too. Don't forget how deadly Kirby is when he gets a hold of a good projectile. But he's still slow and lacks range. Kind of reminds me of a worse Luigi in a way.

Falco goes up in this tier list due to the latest patch really helping him with his combo game in the air by linking uairs. It made a big difference for someone who prefers the air.

MK makes a big rise due to the latest patch also, less ending lag off a jab, some other move I don't remember, and a new...ok kill move in f tilt was a nice gift.

Game and Watch + WFT show movement upwards thanks to more time I've spent with them. Game and Watch remains one of the greatest edgeguarding kings but gets held back by rage big time, WFT jumbo hoops are that good along with great mobility, a great crawl, and projectiles can really be spammed.

Originally I said Mewtwo was better than Lucas, but I threw the idea around in my mind, Lucas won by a hair because of...well, zair and weight.

Charizard makes a small rise due to those amazing combo and killing throws now. Still suffers from being big and landing lag though, lots of it.

Swordsman has Trela showing some results and has been getting buffs a lot through the patches, I expect only more of a rise from him.

Robin suffers perhaps the biggest drop due to just being so horribly slow, projectiles aren't that spammable unless you have speed thunder to help a little bit, even then there's still tome recharge times and levin sword recharge times which hold him back. Elwind is really easy to gimp too. I just see so little from Robin, only reason he's higher than Samus is due to explosive kill power from levin sword.

Lucina in the end is just outclassed and I really see no point in placing these kind of character higher [like Doc] when their original is just flat out superior. At least if you're crazy enough to choose Doc over Mario in competitive play [well, Doc may be more fun imo...] Doc has kill power over Mario.

I forgot Zelda last list but she has her rightful place on my list: dead last. Slow, predictable, hard to land hits, and I can't think of much positives from her except her smashes are strong and farores wind kills deceptively low.

Roy I didn't rank because I didn't download him. I'd think high tier though from a outside perspective due to ridiculous speed and power. He looks to make Marth look pointless at least so far.

Pit and Lame Pit are the jack of all trades [sides amazing recovery] and master of none. I don't see them moving at all.

Fire away! there's 50+ characters in the game, I'm sure to have misplaced some...

Shulk is ranked way too high. He's definetly worse than several characters ranked below him such as , , and .

 

[Yonder]

Shulk is ranked way too high. He's definetly worse than several characters ranked below him such as , , and .

Maybe Ike due to his new buff via the patch but idk about Marth or Link being better. Shulk still has the best range, and the most potential due to monado arts. I just can't bring myself to give up on a character that can be the hardest to kill, the fastest, one of the highest damaging, one of the strongest and one of the best recovery with just a tap of a button. Shulk requires a lot of muscle memory and precise taps to choose the right art quick enough. Shulk does have strocious end lag on some moves, mainly his amshes though which is a big downfall, and vanilla Shulk is probably worse than all of the ones you mentioned.

 

[Speed Boost]

To me Mario and Diddy Kong have a lot of similarities. They have great grabs and throw combos. Diddy can space with Fair and Mario's Bair is similar. They both are short relatively quick with limited reach.

I know there are a lot of differences too but they are in the same ballpark. To me Mario is better than Diddy after 1.08. He has his combos out of Dthrow and Bair is stronger than Diddy's Fair. Mario also has a better kill throw and more powerful smashes.

 

[Ikes]

Nerfing Luigi's throw game would straight up ruin him. Best thing to do is give him slightly more lag if he misses the grab.

I'd say increase the endlag of fair and grab, and slightly decrease the knockback of nair/make it more diagonal (up/slightly forward maybe), and make cyclone deal one or two fewer hits. maybe make fair have one extra frame of starting lag?

Every aerial has an autocancel window and landing lag. For those dairs, there is a hitbox at the beginning of what is supposed to be that move's landing lag. The hitbox comes out around 1-2 frames after the landing depending on the attack. This has nothing to do with what the dair hitbox is supposed to actually do in the air.

Kirby's dair has an autocancel period until 18 frames after dair is inputted. After that, he incurs dair's landing lag with the hitbox when he reaches the ground. Before that, nothing happens since the move autocancelled.

For Pikachu, that's 1 frame after he starts the dair, so pikachu only needs to press the input before landing. When Pikachu's dair actually comes out in the air doesn't matter.

Kirby's landing lag on any of his moves is negligible, especially dair, since dair combos straight into utilt which sets up for aerial strings.

Seriously the puffball is so lagless in the air it's really kind of amazing. The combos and strings he can pull off are terrifying.

Every aerial has an autocancel window and landing lag. For those dairs, there is a hitbox at the beginning of what is supposed to be that move's landing lag. The hitbox comes out around 1-2 frames after the landing depending on the attack. This has nothing to do with what the dair hitbox is supposed to actually do in the air.

Kirby's dair has an autocancel period until 18 frames after dair is inputted. After that, he incurs dair's landing lag with the hitbox when he reaches the ground. Before that, nothing happens since the move autocancelled.

For Pikachu, that's 1 frame after he starts the dair, so pikachu only needs to press the input before landing. When Pikachu's dair actually comes out in the air doesn't matter.

Kirby's landing lag on any of his moves is negligible, especially dair, since dair combos straight into utilt which sets up for aerial strings.

So, I felt like updating my tier list again from long ago, here's a more current version, now with DLC! I quoted my old tier list below my new one for comparisons

Top tier:

High tier: [customs]

Upper Middle tier:

Lower Middle tier:

Low tier: [default]

Not ranked:

So there it is, explaining a few drops and rises...


Diddy of course with the necessary nerf 1 and unnecessary nerf 2 was dethroned as best, but a very good character still with nanners and mobility but a loss of kill power, lots of tricks up with this monkey. Only time will tell if Zero will stick to him.

Ryu really only has room to grow, virtually perfect asides a "meh" recovery and a less than perfect projectile. Just wait until people learn how to use the incredible special move known as focus attack to his maximum. Or become street fighter input gods lol.

Rob has taken a drop. He is very good due to amazing camping game, usable but not great recovery, but suffers due to losing his kill throw. D throw to uair is still legit though. He also gets eaten alive in certain matchups though requiring a secondary [Good luck vs Fox or Sheik].

Mac upon further evaluation really can be scarier than I thought before. Super armor smashes are literal life savers, and beat the tar out of close up brawlers [Luigi, for example]. D tilt to ko punch is still legit, and he's seeing a bit more results.

Kirby I feel like his combos are in the higher echelon of the game, you can perform so much out of a grab, dair, u tilt, etc. He has great kill power and nice customs too. Don't forget how deadly Kirby is when he gets a hold of a good projectile. But he's still slow and lacks range. Kind of reminds me of a worse Luigi in a way.

Falco goes up in this tier list due to the latest patch really helping him with his combo game in the air by linking uairs. It made a big difference for someone who prefers the air.

MK makes a big rise due to the latest patch also, less ending lag off a jab, some other move I don't remember, and a new...ok kill move in f tilt was a nice gift.

Game and Watch + WFT show movement upwards thanks to more time I've spent with them. Game and Watch remains one of the greatest edgeguarding kings but gets held back by rage big time, WFT jumbo hoops are that good along with great mobility, a great crawl, and projectiles can really be spammed.

Originally I said Mewtwo was better than Lucas, but I threw the idea around in my mind, Lucas won by a hair because of...well, zair and weight.

Charizard makes a small rise due to those amazing combo and killing throws now. Still suffers from being big and landing lag though, lots of it.

Swordsman has Trela showing some results and has been getting buffs a lot through the patches, I expect only more of a rise from him.

Robin suffers perhaps the biggest drop due to just being so horribly slow, projectiles aren't that spammable unless you have speed thunder to help a little bit, even then there's still tome recharge times and levin sword recharge times which hold him back. Elwind is really easy to gimp too. I just see so little from Robin, only reason he's higher than Samus is due to explosive kill power from levin sword.

Lucina in the end is just outclassed and I really see no point in placing these kind of character higher [like Doc] when their original is just flat out superior. At least if you're crazy enough to choose Doc over Mario in competitive play [well, Doc may be more fun imo...] Doc has kill power over Mario.

I forgot Zelda last list but she has her rightful place on my list: dead last. Slow, predictable, hard to land hits, and I can't think of much positives from her except her smashes are strong and farores wind kills deceptively low.

Roy I didn't rank because I didn't download him. I'd think high tier though from a outside perspective due to ridiculous speed and power. He looks to make Marth look pointless at least so far.

Pit and Lame Pit are the jack of all trades [sides amazing recovery] and master of none. I don't see them moving at all.

Fire away! there's 50+ characters in the game, I'm sure to have misplaced some...

Okay so I dont know where your lucas placing is but he has the tools to be at least upper mid/bottom of high tier.

the rest of this i agree with for the most part (though why did you use Morton instead of Bowser Jr.?)

after the patch, I see falco reaching upper mid (since most of the stuff that got taken from diddy was given to Falco, and now he's got some real Nair shenanigans)

Wario should be above Pit/Dork pit, and ESPECIALLY pac-man, I cant see him being outside of top 15 with all the stuff he has right now (top tier air mobility, good frame data in the air and in his tilts, bike shenanigans, chomp, the list goes on)

I think it's too early to put peach outside of upper mid since she doesnt have really any results (if she does let me know but I have yet to hear of any notable peach mains/players.) She seems good but she just doesnt have the history to back it up.

This patch buffed samus to a very strong extent, she still struggles with rushdown but i think she should at least be lower mid by now, especially if we consider customs to be on.

a few smaller gripes ill just make a list out of

Mii Sword should be above Gunner
Olimar should be at the top of upper mid or bottom of high
Mega Man should be in lower high tier IMHO
Meta Knight should be like 7 spaces higher
If we're considering customs on, WFT should be top of lower mid/bottom of upper mid, possibly higher
Duck hunt couldnt stand to be a bit higher

I will say though, Toon Link's spot is pretty much perfect. though he could end up a little higher since he's not too well represented ;^)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

To me Mario and Diddy Kong have a lot of similarities. They have great grabs and throw combos. Diddy can space with Fair and Mario's Bair is similar. They both are short relatively quick with limited reach.

I know there are a lot of differences too but they are in the same ballpark. To me Mario is better than Diddy after 1.08. He has his combos out of Dthrow and Bair is stronger than Diddy's Fair. Mario also has a better kill throw and more powerful smashes.

Here's the main flaw in shulk. Everything you listed is temporary. It's just a slight boost to attempt to mask a crappy character. The only one shulk can be good is if they cut all the cool down and start up on all his moves in half.

 

[Speed Boost]

Here's the main flaw in shulk. Everything you listed is temporary. It's just a slight boost to attempt to mask a crappy character. The only one shulk can be good is if they cut all the cool down and start up on all his moves in half.

Shulk has a lot of good stuff that isn't laggy. FTilt, DTilt, UTilt, Jab, NAir, FAir and his tilts and throws kill in Smash Monado. He is an unexplored character with a lot of potential to be a high tier IMO. Zero recently said he thinks he is very good as well.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So, I felt like updating my tier list again from long ago, here's a more current version, now with DLC! I quoted my old tier list below my new one for comparisons

Top tier:

High tier: [customs]

Upper Middle tier:

Lower Middle tier:

Low tier: [default]

Not ranked:

So there it is, explaining a few drops and rises...


Diddy of course with the necessary nerf 1 and unnecessary nerf 2 was dethroned as best, but a very good character still with nanners and mobility but a loss of kill power, lots of tricks up with this monkey. Only time will tell if Zero will stick to him.

Ryu really only has room to grow, virtually perfect asides a "meh" recovery and a less than perfect projectile. Just wait until people learn how to use the incredible special move known as focus attack to his maximum. Or become street fighter input gods lol.

Rob has taken a drop. He is very good due to amazing camping game, usable but not great recovery, but suffers due to losing his kill throw. D throw to uair is still legit though. He also gets eaten alive in certain matchups though requiring a secondary [Good luck vs Fox or Sheik].

Mac upon further evaluation really can be scarier than I thought before. Super armor smashes are literal life savers, and beat the tar out of close up brawlers [Luigi, for example]. D tilt to ko punch is still legit, and he's seeing a bit more results.

Kirby I feel like his combos are in the higher echelon of the game, you can perform so much out of a grab, dair, u tilt, etc. He has great kill power and nice customs too. Don't forget how deadly Kirby is when he gets a hold of a good projectile. But he's still slow and lacks range. Kind of reminds me of a worse Luigi in a way.

Falco goes up in this tier list due to the latest patch really helping him with his combo game in the air by linking uairs. It made a big difference for someone who prefers the air.

MK makes a big rise due to the latest patch also, less ending lag off a jab, some other move I don't remember, and a new...ok kill move in f tilt was a nice gift.

Game and Watch + WFT show movement upwards thanks to more time I've spent with them. Game and Watch remains one of the greatest edgeguarding kings but gets held back by rage big time, WFT jumbo hoops are that good along with great mobility, a great crawl, and projectiles can really be spammed.

Originally I said Mewtwo was better than Lucas, but I threw the idea around in my mind, Lucas won by a hair because of...well, zair and weight.

Charizard makes a small rise due to those amazing combo and killing throws now. Still suffers from being big and landing lag though, lots of it.

Swordsman has Trela showing some results and has been getting buffs a lot through the patches, I expect only more of a rise from him.

Robin suffers perhaps the biggest drop due to just being so horribly slow, projectiles aren't that spammable unless you have speed thunder to help a little bit, even then there's still tome recharge times and levin sword recharge times which hold him back. Elwind is really easy to gimp too. I just see so little from Robin, only reason he's higher than Samus is due to explosive kill power from levin sword.

Lucina in the end is just outclassed and I really see no point in placing these kind of character higher [like Doc] when their original is just flat out superior. At least if you're crazy enough to choose Doc over Mario in competitive play [well, Doc may be more fun imo...] Doc has kill power over Mario.

I forgot Zelda last list but she has her rightful place on my list: dead last. Slow, predictable, hard to land hits, and I can't think of much positives from her except her smashes are strong and farores wind kills deceptively low.

Roy I didn't rank because I didn't download him. I'd think high tier though from a outside perspective due to ridiculous speed and power. He looks to make Marth look pointless at least so far.

Pit and Lame Pit are the jack of all trades [sides amazing recovery] and master of none. I don't see them moving at all.

Fire away! there's 50+ characters in the game, I'm sure to have misplaced some...

I question your placement of ROB. Sure he lost a kill throw several patches ago but he has better results than most of the people a tier above him. (Granted, I'm biased as a ROB secondary, don't mind me). Also, I don't think we can put Ryu in top tier without even seeing him in tournement. And we've seen what Lucas can do in tourney and somehow he's worse than Jigglypuff? Please.

 

[B.A.M.]

So with this being a thing....

What you're saying is Lucas is one hell of a scary mofo.

It would be but really high footstools like that can be easily DIed away from making it far harder to do consistently. But yes, Lucas is a scary mofo lol.

 

[B.A.M.]

Shulk has a lot of good stuff that isn't laggy. FTilt, DTilt, UTilt, Jab, NAir, FAir and his tilts and throws kill in Smash Monado. He is an unexplored character with a lot of potential to be a high tier IMO. Zero recently said he thinks he is very good as well.

i think u need to actually look at his frame data first before saying that. yes hes a ranged character so u have to look at the data slightly differently, still doesnt take away from the fact that he indeed has a laggy tool kit. Does that mean hes unusable? no. but in the context of the cast hes not a solid character. people need to get over this Shulk dream; his tool kit just isnt that good. And his recovery is abysmal. As people get better he will DEFINITELY get worse with a recovery like that. Jump Monado or not.

 

[Shaya]

So the Marth players have been quiet ever since this patch.
We be biding our time.
Hiding in the shadows.

His jab may have gone from one of the worst in the series to potentially one of the best in the game. Holy crap.
This change, along with Roy's inclusion has kinda nullified Lucina entirely in my opinion. The new jab while helpful for both as a set up for anything and everything is giving Marth tipper confirms, which is ludicrous (It's almost as good as Zero Suit Flip Jump). Lucina obviously still gets smashers but no way in hell is she ever being rewarded like Marth can for this move. And one of the main reasons to use Lucina over Marth (stronger and more reliable Forward Smash) now exists in Roy, who seems pretty solid in his own right.

Marth and Lucina have lost one of their small weaknesses of being safe on hit at low percent with the new jab and up tilt. Neutral Air now can be said to be a safe landing aerial well spaced, and single first hit confirms into smash attacks too.

Also on Diddy...
I think this is the straw that broke the camel's back. If we were to table up all the possible nerfs Diddy could have received prior to Mewtwo to turn him sane (likely only needing one or two; focusing on up air), he's almost had every perceivable one given. It was a ludicrously strong at KOing, 25% damage nerf and growth culled so not anymore; it was ludicrously fast start up and hit everywhere, nullifying the need of 2 other aerials, but with later start up it loses it's insane utility/strength for landing; it had an insane amount of reliable set ups into it, with all the grab and throw nerfs... not anymore; and it was a near lagless aerial with a frame 15 auto cancel, now it's average.

He now really struggles to kill, has worse damage racking ability and lost a lot of utility in his disadvantageous state while being overall less safe than he was before. I don't believe he's suddenly low tier, nothing like that... but now he's a really low DPS and when compared to Sheik... slow poker, almost Brawl Marth-esque with his forward air and down tilt emphasis who is likely only going to be able to find success with an extensively campy play style that completely revolves around bananas, avoiding conflict until you can produce one and outplaying your opponent hard to get the kill (as bananas are no where near as strong/utility rich as in Brawl). What's that? Needs bananas to succeed? Rosalina, Pikachu, Olimar, Yoshi, Luigi, Mario (so on and so forth) are really liking that; any rush down character who can handle diddy's shield with a banana? :\
On the positive side of things, Dtilt probably combos things a bit longer (possibly into kill moves), jab isn't useless, and really solid use of bananas and the amazing monkey flip gem takes a lot of skill to exploit and wasn't a solid part of most high level Diddy game play.

IMO, he needs strength back on his forward air (and/or back air kill power goes up), ftilt gets 1.08 greninja'd and make dash attack more reliable. Hopefully with patches to come they realise it was perhaps a little overboard. I think top 15 is a safe position to take on Diddy, but it could be worse.


----

Also the change on Falco's down air sending people vertically upwards instead of spiking them on the ground is pretty big stance change. I feel this should be more liberally given to like... everyone? And by everyone I mean not Falcon and not the falling dairs (Sonic, ZSS, Sheik, G&W, etc). It's obvious that rather than removing grounded teching, that this change enhances down air from use cases -other than- fast fallen/as low to the ground as possible and negates the whole "all of them are reactable" to thing making them awful as a punish. I'm hoping/assuming this will suddenly start being seen in future balance patches, it's good for the game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Charizard makes a small rise due to those amazing combo and killing throws now. Still suffers from being big and landing lag though, lots of it.

Landing with Zard isn't too bad. He doesn't have anything safe, sure, but his extra jump, Flamethrower, Nair, and Rock Smash give him a few options to mix things up well enough. For his weight class he gets out of trouble decently well, and with customs his escape options are hands down better than any of the other super heavies sans Wind Kong. Sure he still has those issues and will wind up getting juggled at times, but it's not all that bad, and his weight + rage is often able to make up for it. What really holds Zard back is his limited options in neutral. Nair + jab + grab + flamethrower + the occasional dtilt/spaced ftilt can only get you so far, so you often have to be very patient to actually hit anything so you get a chance to actually take advantage of his juggles, edgeguarding, and kill throw. Definitely think even with his limitations he should be bumped ahead of Ganon and Bowser, as he's better able to keep up with the characters that matter.

 

[bc1910]

@ Y Yonder Decent list but Greninja ranked too low, as ever. He is at least as good as Peach, and neither of them have results. He's also been buffed in a meaningful way. Deserves to be low high tier if Peach is. His position in your previous list was fine and he's been buffed since then plus it's not like his results have got worse, I'm not sure why he moved down.

you actually can't. if you wait before you do the second footstool they can't DI it. its not that the people in that vid didn't DI, they didn't have the option to.

kinda wish people would randomly stop posting stuff like this. :/

Which part of the combo are you referring to specifically? Could you list what you think are the inescapable inputs?

 

[Trieste SP]

ROB didn't really lose a kill throw, it just doesn't kill as early.

It still kills earlier than Greninja's even.

Greninja has a kill throw?

I wasn't aware of this...

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Shaya @Cassio Lucina still at least seems logical against like...Pikachu. I would assume he's still annoying to tipper consistently, and Roy is pretty risky against Pikachu's strong combo and edgeguard game.

Anyhow when it comes to sword characters, to push a bold claim, I actually think Link is top 15. I don't think he has a single unwinnable matchup anymore. Yes he has some clear weaknesses, but he can swing any game really quickly with his new grab game (especially against fastfallers, like the pesky Fox and Sheik who invalidated him previously). He also wins many more matchups pretty convincingly now that no character in this game can just fundamentally abuse what used to be his midrange dead zone, and he still has his strong close and long range game to control neutral.

 

[PUK]

yeah that's really bold

 

[Shaya]

@ Shaya @Cassio Lucina still at least seems logical against like...Pikachu. I would assume he's still annoying to tipper consistently, and Roy is pretty risky against Pikachu's strong combo and edgeguard game.

Anyhow when it comes to sword characters, to push a bold claim, I actually think Link is top 15. I don't think he has a single unwinnable matchup anymore. Yes he has some clear weaknesses, but he can swing any game really quickly with his new grab game (especially against fastfallers, like the pesky Fox and Sheik who invalidated him previously). He also wins many more matchups pretty convincingly now that no character in this game can just fundamentally abuse what used to be his midrange dead zone, and he still has his strong close and long range game to control neutral.

The truth of this game after the patch

Top Tier


High Tier


Middle Tier


Low Tier


Bottom Tier
...Everyone else

But eh, I think new found jab will still just work out grossly better for Marth than Lucina enough to make him undoubtedly universally superior in match ups. I didn't exactly ever agree that Lucina was better in the Pika match up, but I think it was fair to say she didn't do [much] worse than him, an immediate fsmash punish means a lot more on Lucina, yada yada. Stuff like Up tilt being safer/faster makes it super scary against a character like Pikachu too. With a more aerial focus now available in their kits (jab to fair, people jumping to avoid jab (lol), more tilts from this, nair being great), Marth comes out better (tipper aerials are -easy- to land in contrast to grounded moves).

Either way, Marth is busted, holy ****.
Roy is solid and strong single hitter (and it's been done really well tbqh), but I wonder if there's much reason to use him over Marth either.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The truth of this game after the patch

Top Tier


High Tier


Middle Tier


Low Tier


Bottom Tier
...Everyone else

Rosalina confirmed bottom tier.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja has a kill throw?

I wasn't aware of this...

Up Throw is like the 7th best kill throw in the game factoring in DI. Kills at around 160, much earlier with rage.

IMO, he needs strength back on his forward air (and/or back air kill power goes up), ftilt gets 1.08 greninja'd and make dash attack more reliable. Hopefully with patches to come they realise it was perhaps a little overboard. I think top 15 is a safe position to take on Diddy, but it could be worse.

Greninja is WAY ahead of Diddy in the "reversing old nerfs" queue, in terms of time AND necessity. Hell, it's not like Diddy's even unviable. He has to wait his turn.

 

[Angry Guy of DE]

Low Tier

Pikachu low tier...that's...that's new.

Shulk can be good but it comes down to his Monado arts. Used in the right situation Shulk can build damage, approach, and kill exceptionally well. On that same note, his recovery isn't that hot outside of jump arts. Honestly if he lost his double jump Shulk likely doesn't recover if the opponent goes off stage after him. You might argue that Shulk can use his counter against would be gimps but its baited Shulk is pretty much dead or even worse it can activate and accidently put him under the stage (miiverse and similar stages with a flat underside) where he pretty much is screwed.

 

[TriTails]

Just going to point out that basically nothing can challenge Rosalina's Uair (Falcon's is difficult to challenge in general as well), and that as a whole this game has way better Uairs than Dairs almost across the whole board.
It's pretty rare for characters to be able to challenge below them well at all; Luigi's not particularly bad at it compared to the rest of the cast.

Problem is, Luigi's 2nd slowest airspeed and floatiness FORCES him to challenge what is below him, else he better off resetting to the ledge.

Jigglypuff can't challenge such moves as Falcon's U-air due to range gap. So what? She just weave in and out and confuse Falcon with her longest airdodge. Greninja just ****s them over with Hydro Pump and can potentially turn a disadvantage into solid advantage. Ganon has his powerful Stomp and Wizkick, which has to be respected. Multi-jumpers such as MK and Pit can also do the same thing as Jiggly, while having disjointed D-airs for their uses.

Luigi? He has none of them. Sure. Nothing can challenge Rosalina's U-air, but it becomes a big, big problem when you are similiarly helpless against the others. Hell, if Luigi decides to land on the stage, U-smash or SH U-air him and there's really nothing he can do unless he surprised you with a fast-fall N-air. He lands on a platform? Shark him with *Insert moves here*.

He can reset to the ledge with Missile, sure. But then it becomes a mindgame and it can spell trouble with the likes of Wario and his Chomp, Rosalina and her Luma, Pac-Man doing his trampoline and hydrant shenanigans, etc. I feel when it comes on juggling, Luigi's the best victim for that.

And don't even make me start rambling on how people use LUIGI CYCLONE right ABOVE people hoping they'd hit them.

Honestly if he lost his double jump Shulk likely doesn't recover if the opponent goes off stage after him. You might argue that Shulk can use his counter against would be gimps but its baited Shulk is pretty much dead or even worse it can activate and accidently put him under the stage (miiverse and similar stages with a flat underside) where he pretty much is screwed.

The same can be said for Mario, Falcon, Ganon, Ike, Luigi, LM, Ness, Link, etc.

Having a bad recovery doesn't mean you can't be gud. Melee Fox and Falco have horrible recovery yet look where they stand. Smash 4 Diddy and Ness have bad recovery, yet look where are their thrones.

The truth of this game after the patch

Top Tier


High Tier


Middle Tier


Low Tier


Bottom Tier
...Everyone else

This tier list in a nutshell: Super Sword Brothers .

Fun Fact: Pika is the only one who doesn't wield sword.

 

[Shaya]

Greninja is WAY ahead of Diddy in the "reversing old nerfs" queue, in terms of time AND necessity. Hell, it's not like Diddy's even unviable. He has to wait his turn.

Yes yes, everything is about Greninja.
But I suppose "needs" is iffy for me to say fairly. I can look at diddy and go "Sakurai's right, those moves were abused while others neglected, they had to be taken back a lot". Greninja in a similar light. And I only noted 1 reversal for Diddy; it's less used moves that look to be a good place to buff for characters who we know were very close/were solid before.

With that notion in mind, Greninja is in a spot where nearly all of his normals are pretty usable/good. His specials are great at low/mid level, which hurts their chances of being graced. What's left of Greninja that is underutilised? Down Tilt? Some of his throws? I wouldn't really want to see reversals of some of Greninja's key nerfs at all; water shuriken and up smash spam was not cool, bug fixes are not real nerfs.