Character Competitive Impressions

[Luigi player]

You're forgetting that in 1.08 the hit box to uair was nerfed and the move comes out 1 frame slower. In 1.07 he didn't have those changes it just killed slightly later. Before that the move was absolutely ridiculous.

People say the Diddy nerfs in 1.08 weren't warranted I say screw that. This character been a broken pile of crap since the wiiu version launched. And the way his metagame was developing would've destroyed the game. If he was left unchecked.

Going forward I'd like to see less nerfs and them buff characters more. Actually, I'd like if the players were a bit more involved in the process of patching / patch notes. I really dislike the feeling of Sakurai handing out nerfs/buffs just because.

I'm not forgetting them, there were more changes than that but I didn't see the point in listing all of them.
Diddy was well beatable and had a hard time himself. People mostly just sucked. I know because I played him and saw how people played against him. And if there were enough good players of other characters Diddy got beaten no problem (see Apex), except for one (Zero).
Now it's more difficult to win with Diddy, but still well possible. I don't think the move was that broken. It was really really good, but it didn't break him for me. His fair was much more of a problem, because it walls out and KOed. Uair was never scary for me when playing against Diddys, because I knew how to DI and react. Diddys bananagame + fsmash + fair were the biggest things, but of course grabs and grabcombos helped him rack up %.
Diddy still has his good fsmash that can still get kills like prepatches (just with few frames more endinglag and the angle it hits to got slightly tweaked), fair is a little weaker but still walls out, and his banana to anything is still the same. The combination of his quickness (good runspeed, fast moves, movement) and the possibility to have a banana just give him so much space. And with his great aerials (fair and bair, and even uair is still a great move, even though it's the 3rd weakest aerial in the game now, even nair sets up for combos) he can still combat other characters fine and get easy hits or punishes.

Anyway, the character was still great with the first nerfs, but he didn't exactly need more. He fit well into the upper top tier, just look at what the others can do. And I hope you don't want all of them nerfed, because playing a gimped version of all characters always gets less and less fun. I'm really hoping for more buffs, they make characters feel so much better and it makes you want to play them and feel amazing and be like "wow, this is better now". Nerfs kinda "destroy" the previous experiences you had while playing them and suddenly things aren't possible anymore or weaker etc. It's a really bad feeling.
At this point the only nerfs I still want to see would be Sheiks fair hitbox a little smaller, Fox "infinite" jab combo to not work anymore, and lumas uair to have less BKB.

Does d-tilt > usmash still combo? I haven't been able to get it to work post patch because of the damage/hitstun nerfs of d-tilt.
F-smash isn't really a reliable kill tool, especially when it and up-smash are the only ones Diddy has right now (since I don't think up-throw up-air combos at kill % anymore? People can just sit in shield until f-throw/b-throw at the ledge kills them).

The character will always be decent (high tier, around fox level) because fair and bananas are so good, and honestly they're carrying the character really hard now that uair's pretty meh.

Yeah dtilt to usmash or bair still combo and is a very nice kill-setup for Diddy.
To me fsmash is the most scary thing about Diddy when fighting against him. Never do an unsafe roll or spotdodge or anything near him and even if you're a little bit away from him watch out for banana toss to fsmash combo. It just gets him pretty early kills and it's definitely possible to hit with. Of course you shouldn't force it if it doesn't work and rather go for other moves to get punishes or pressure the opponent (dsmash, utilt, usmash, grab, etc), but for me it's somewhat common that the move just connects and gets the kill for Diddy.

Tbh his uair isn't a killmove anymore, but it's still one of the best. Can't really think of a better one besides Rosalina using it together with Luma.
I still think the 2nd nerf to uair was just annoying. Frame 3 uair was something I loved having in Brawl and there are other ways to nerf it. Now it was better in Brawl than it is now, since it has a killmove and frame 3. They kinda nerfed everything about it, so it was a little overnerfed. It's slower, has more lag, removed the frame 3 hitbox, less autocancelframes... They really overdid it, but it still juggles opponents well which was always the point of it anyway, but the most annoying thing about the recent uair nerf is less autocancelframes... that destroys your previous playstyle and just feels bad.
Uair shouldn't have gotten all these free KOs it had when it was pretty strong, these were almost always the players faults for not DIing and airdodging instead of doublejumping away. To be honest I'm hoping they see that Diddy got a little overnerfed and buff him again, just a tiny bit. At least his jab is more useful now, but eh... All this nerfing just makes the characters (and the game) less fun to play if you've played them before.

@ Luigi player . Diddy wasn't explored properly when he was broken, and the (initial) Diddy nerfs are the best thing to ever happen to this game. If this game was never patched Diddy's would have been getting better and more common.

I agree that the first nerf was nice and welcomed. To be honest, I stopped using Diddy, a short time after the Wii U version came out, because everyone only complained about him and it didn't mean anything to win with him. Just played him sometimes. At this time I switched over to Luigi and Sonic. And played more and more other characters. While I didn't feel Diddy was that broken it just wasn't satisfying to win with Diddy when everyone thinks he is, while I'm working really hard and thinking how amazing I'm playing but no one really sees the finesse of it because they're blinded by their hatred of the "broken kong".
After the first patch I used Diddy more and now with the 2nd nerfs I'm using him even more again.
With the findings of Diddys uthrow->uair I was really hoping he'd get nerfed too, because that was truly too much. And I wanted people to stop complaining.

Diddy wasn't that explored... by most people. But others were finding new stuff with him and used it sometimes. If you've watched Zero playing you could clearly see how amazing he was. Diddys options he had previously were just most of the time better than doing his other things, but that doesn't mean people didn't know about them. Dtilt to usmash still already used late in the patch. And there were enough Brawl Diddy mains that still used more special Diddy stuff and not just being able to do hoo-hahs. I've seen this especially from Zinoto, cyve and myself, who were all Diddy mains in Brawl, but there are probably more. It was kinda easy to see people really knowing how to use Diddy and know many techniques and "Diddy-things", and people just going for grabs and hoo-hahing (and winning because their opponents didn't know how to deal with it).

 

[WingedKnight]

Zard still can't land, his recovery is sluggish and his moveset is slow/reactable apart from a few key moves.

Thing is, those key moves are so good now that Zard barely needs the rest of his moveset to compete. It's sort of just... there. Waiting for him in case he needs to stop jabbing and grabbing for whatever reason. I'm exaggerating a bit but really, the central moves in Charizard's gameplan are really good now. Good enough to patch up what would otherwise be a lacklustre toolkit (his moveset isn't BAD, he gets a lot from a hit, there's just lots of lag in lots of places).

Charizard destroys FG now. He was always good in that mode because even a little bit of lag makes Flare Blitz exponentially better, but now he can just cheese people out with jabs and grabs, kill with Uthrow, survive to rage % and end their second stock even earlier with Uthrow having not died once. If he does die, no big deal, he'll live forever again and Uthrow kills at reasonable percents even with no rage. If you just want to boost your FG win rating I can't think of a better character to pick now besides Sonic.

I'm happy he got buffed, and also somewhat surprised, I'd have thought his win rate was high because as I said he's always been good online. Assuming his win rate is high, it goes to show Sakurai and his team pay attention to several sources for character balance (they've said this multiple times but it's nice to have proof). What I'm not sure about is if I'm happy with HOW he got buffed. The Dthrow and jab buffs were great, but I'm still not sure about a character this heavy having an Uthrow that kills so early, especially with platforms involved. I think fixing his Uthrow to not land on platforms above him would be reasonable.

I'm seeing shades of Brawl Dedede in the new and improved Charizard. Huge, heavy character with limited mobility in most situations and lots of laggy moves, but a number of great tools that create a unique and solid game plan. Neither fits the most commonly seen mold of speedy little rushdown character, and they usually find themselves combo fodder for such characters, and yet their extreme survival capabilities, incredible grab game, good damage racking, and interesting projectile combined with a smattering of solid moves ties the whole thing together into a powerful grappler-type character.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja was overnerfed more than Diddy and got a Ftilt buff recently, so about 6 months after his original nerfs. I wouldn't be shocked to see Diddy get a buff to one of his less high-profile moves in future. I think it's unlikely for him to get a buff to anything that's already been nerfed, judging by Greninja's changes (he's actually had 3 very nice buffs through patches but they were all to moves that were never nerfed).

Still, current Diddy is more viable than current Greninja despite being nerfed twice and Greninja only getting one big nerf. I would not be happy with Diddy getting buffs to his nerfed moves unless the same was done for Greninja.

 

[Minordeth]

I'm happy he got buffed, and also somewhat surprised, I'd have thought his win rate was high because as I said he's always been good online. Assuming his win rate is high, it goes to show Sakurai and his team pay attention to several sources for character balance (they've said this multiple times but it's nice to have proof). What I'm not sure about is if I'm happy with HOW he got buffed. The Dthrow and jab buffs were great, but I'm still not sure about a character this heavy having an Uthrow that kills so early, especially with platforms involved. I think fixing his Uthrow to not land on platforms above him would be reasonable.

I'm okay with his Uthrow landing on platforms, actually. It adds maybe a wee bit of cheap to the scheme, but asking (especially) top tier characters to respect stage topography adds some depth to the game plan. For instance, Sonic and Sheik can essentially use any stage to their advantage, so the threat of an early KO because a players awareness is sloppy doesn't bother me anymore than Ganoncide doesn't bother me. Charizard still has to land against combo heavy characters and Rock Smash is only so much of a get-out-of-jail-free card.

The more I think about it, the more I'm okay with a heavy character finally having a dangerous grab game. It feels more in line with the concept of a heavy grappler from a traditional fighting game POV.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm seeing shades of Brawl Dedede in the new and improved Charizard. Huge, heavy character with limited mobility in most situations and lots of laggy moves, but a number of great tools that create a unique and solid game plan. Neither fits the most commonly seen mold of speedy little rushdown character, and they usually find themselves combo fodder for such characters, and yet their extreme survival capabilities, incredible grab game, good damage racking, and interesting projectile combined with a smattering of solid moves ties the whole thing together into a powerful grappler-type character.

Almost all the heavies have unique grappling tools. DK has cargo shenanigans, Bowser has a plain powerful
flying slam (even if most prefer the mobility granting custom) and an excellent pivot grab, Ganondorf has flame choke tech-chases,
Dedede has a b-reversible inhale good for landing mixups. Now Charizard can claim to have the strongest normal grab
game of the heavies.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yeah dtilt to usmash or bair still combo and is a very nice kill-setup for Diddy.
To me fsmash is the most scary thing about Diddy when fighting against him. Never do an unsafe roll or spotdodge or anything near him and even if you're a little bit away from him watch out for banana toss to fsmash combo. It just gets him pretty early kills and it's definitely possible to hit with. Of course you shouldn't force it if it doesn't work and rather go for other moves to get punishes or pressure the opponent (dsmash, utilt, usmash, grab, etc), but for me it's somewhat common that the move just connects and gets the kill for Diddy.

Good to hear Diddy's still working for you.
Tbh I don't want to give up the character because I love playing as him so much (and I've invested so much time into him), but I don't want to have to keep relearning the character every patch because people keep complaining about him (and he just keeps feeling worse to play when they keep reducing his damage/kill power/combo potential). I guess I'll see how people rate the character after CEO and try to keep emulating top diddy's who still play him.

 

[TriTails]

The quote was more like "We don't have plans for more balance patches at this time"

...Which is exactly my point?

I was referring to 'misquotes', 'misinterpretations', 'mistranslated'. We all know how did that sentence come out.

Almost all the heavies have unique grappling tools..

Let's not forget Falcon's dash grab, Wario's Chomp, and Yoshi's Egg Lay. The two formers are definitely vital to the respective characters.

Speaking of Zard, kind of wierd they just buffed his U-throw to be stronger than Mewtwo's. I mean, it has platform shenanigans and is tucked on a heavy. Yeah, I know heavies are generally stronger than lightweights, but making it so it can land on higher platform and kill from that point (ROB also has this. I believe Kirby and MK too) along with his grab range seems... a lot.

But hey. Heavies need to be good for once. Nerfing it (Like they did with 1.0.4 D3. Why did they nerf him again?) would be a quite big nerf.

On yet another topic, I wonder what anyone think about . He is definitely can put up some work, and Nado gimps still scares to to this day (Hell. I use it and still feel scary on it's knockback).

 

[Asdioh]

I wrote this ramble last night and I'm gonna post it now, I think I'm on the same page as Luigi player


Since Diddy was being talked about it made me think of something I'm going to ramble about because my thoughts aren't organized, so be warned. This is already obvious, but mobility is always gonna be one of the most important things in this game. I think some people tend to forget just how important it is though, especially when a character (such as prepatch Diddy) has other overpowering traits. I've heard certain types of moves called "zone breakers" or "burst mobility" in this game, and those are among the most important things you can have.

Spoiler: tl;dr fast is the best

Somewhat off topic, but this is true for other competitive games as well. League of Legends is a popular example; things called blinks/dashes/gap closers are ultra important, and "mobility creep" occurs, because characters without this mobility usually struggle immensely to keep up (literally and figuratively) with characters that have it. If you've ever played Diablo 2 PvP (hello childhood) you may remember the patch that added an armor that gave all classes the ability to Teleport, instead of just the Sorceress. It instantly became a must-have for anything PvP. There are tons of other games you could use as examples, but it usually boils down to things that can get from point A to point B more quickly have an inherent advantage.

Besides obvious strengths like moves with high damage/disjoints/amazing frame data/etc, horizontal speed is probably the most important tool, followed by vertical speed. Most matches are played on flat-ish stages, with two characters facing off, one of the left, one on the right. Being able to break your opponent's defenses in this neutral state before they can reasonably react is a massive strength. And then being able to follow them in the air for quick followups is where the vertical speed comes into play, though this happens less often than the horizontal interactions, which is why I think it's somewhat less important.

So anyway Diddy. Definitely not still #1 after the nerfs, and people think he's bad because his "main strength" in Upair was nerfed, but I don't think that was even his core strength. When you think "overwhelming speed" Diddy is never the character that people think of first, but his speed is still very competitive. He has one of the faster runs in the game, one of the best rolls, with threatening options after the roll, a powerful banana peel that requires quick reactions or prediction, and a fast monkey flip that generally either has to be shielded or beaten with a fast attack, in order to punish. Another thing that helps him immensely is the ability to use monkey flip in the air, and peanut cancel to reverse momentum, if he chooses. Sheik gets a similar strength in bouncing fish. This is a huge boon in escaping combos and landing traps, both of these characters get aerial, horizontal burst mobility, in a direction of their choice, with generally low risk, and they don't go into freefall afterward. I don't think there are many other moves like this in the game that don't send characters into freefall? Fox/Falco SideBs kind of do this, but I don't see them used to escape juggles much, because the startup/endlag don't seem as useful. Stuff like Falcon/Ike SideBs are generally less speedy, and end with freefall lag. Oh, then there's Quick Attack, but that move's broken. Ban defaults.

Diddy will stay good as long as he has these speedy tools, outside of absurd nerfs, like his moves having no range or doing no damage. Sonic will stay good as long as he has insane speed on run/specials. Sheik will stay good as long as she has her insane mobility specs, which includes needles covering a long horizontal range while being too fast to react to, as well as great ascending/descending speed. Falcon has fast run/dashgrab/dash attack/vertical speed, and a viable option in Falcon Kick to cover options his other speedy tools might miss. Yoshi has amazing horizontal airspeed, which is his biggest strength fo sho. ZSS has 5th fastest run, but it's not usually her overwhelming speed that carries her as much as her low risk/high reward moves. Fox is a fast runner, with the ability to quickly follow people vertically, and Fox Illusion in this game is fast and safe with good reward if used correctly.

Then there are some non-top tiers that have burst speed as their saving grace. With customs, Kirby gains unreactable vertical speed with upper cutter, and usable horizontal speed with jumping inhale.

 

[bc1910]

I wrote this ramble last night and I'm gonna post it now, I think I'm on the same page as Luigi player


Since Diddy was being talked about it made me think of something I'm going to ramble about because my thoughts aren't organized, so be warned. This is already obvious, but mobility is always gonna be one of the most important things in this game. I think some people tend to forget just how important it is though, especially when a character (such as prepatch Diddy) has other overpowering traits. I've heard certain types of moves called "zone breakers" or "burst mobility" in this game, and those are among the most important things you can have.

Spoiler: tl;dr fast is the best

Somewhat off topic, but this is true for other competitive games as well. League of Legends is a popular example; things called blinks/dashes/gap closers are ultra important, and "mobility creep" occurs, because characters without this mobility usually struggle immensely to keep up (literally and figuratively) with characters that have it. If you've ever played Diablo 2 PvP (hello childhood) you may remember the patch that added an armor that gave all classes the ability to Teleport, instead of just the Sorceress. It instantly became a must-have for anything PvP. There are tons of other games you could use as examples, but it usually boils down to things that can get from point A to point B more quickly have an inherent advantage.

Besides obvious strengths like moves with high damage/disjoints/amazing frame data/etc, horizontal speed is probably the most important tool, followed by vertical speed. Most matches are played on flat-ish stages, with two characters facing off, one of the left, one on the right. Being able to break your opponent's defenses in this neutral state before they can reasonably react is a massive strength. And then being able to follow them in the air for quick followups is where the vertical speed comes into play, though this happens less often than the horizontal interactions, which is why I think it's somewhat less important.

So anyway Diddy. Definitely not still #1 after the nerfs, and people think he's bad because his "main strength" in Upair was nerfed, but I don't think that was even his core strength. When you think "overwhelming speed" Diddy is never the character that people think of first, but his speed is still very competitive. He has one of the faster runs in the game, one of the best rolls, with threatening options after the roll, a powerful banana peel that requires quick reactions or prediction, and a fast monkey flip that generally either has to be shielded or beaten with a fast attack, in order to punish. Another thing that helps him immensely is the ability to use monkey flip in the air, and peanut cancel to reverse momentum, if he chooses. Sheik gets a similar strength in bouncing fish. This is a huge boon in escaping combos and landing traps, both of these characters get aerial, horizontal burst mobility, in a direction of their choice, with generally low risk, and they don't go into freefall afterward. I don't think there are many other moves like this in the game that don't send characters into freefall? Fox/Falco SideBs kind of do this, but I don't see them used to escape juggles much, because the startup/endlag don't seem as useful. Stuff like Falcon/Ike SideBs are generally less speedy, and end with freefall lag. Oh, then there's Quick Attack, but that move's broken. Ban defaults.

Diddy will stay good as long as he has these speedy tools, outside of absurd nerfs, like his moves having no range or doing no damage. Sonic will stay good as long as he has insane speed on run/specials. Sheik will stay good as long as she has her insane mobility specs, which includes needles covering a long horizontal range while being too fast to react to, as well as great ascending/descending speed. Falcon has fast run/dashgrab/dash attack/vertical speed, and a viable option in Falcon Kick to cover options his other speedy tools might miss. Yoshi has amazing horizontal airspeed, which is his biggest strength fo sho. ZSS has 5th fastest run, but it's not usually her overwhelming speed that carries her as much as her low risk/high reward moves. Fox is a fast runner, with the ability to quickly follow people vertically, and Fox Illusion in this game is fast and safe with good reward if used correctly.

Then there are some non-top tiers that have burst speed as their saving grace. With customs, Kirby gains unreactable vertical speed with upper cutter, and usable horizontal speed with jumping inhale.

Greninja has the best mobility in the game if you weight vertical and horizontal mobility equally (he's top 6 in every stat including walk speed). He also has burst mobility in Hydro Pump and Shadow Dash with customs on, they're not bouncing fish level good but Hydro Pump in particular is solid. Yet most people think Greninja's not viable. Why do you think that is? Do you think he's unviable? I have some thoughts myself but I want some other opinions.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Yet most people think Greninja's not viable. Why do you think that is?

"Most people" include a lot of casual players in general, and/or a lot of people who have trouble with characters that have a learning curve.

Therefore, because someone cant be good with the character, it must be the character's fault.

Alternatively, you play against enough people in the above group who are trying out Greninja to poor effect, and you reach the implication that the character's at fault for the player's flaws.

...Really, the same could be said of any character that isn't as pick-up-and-go as Mario or Diddy or most other agile characters.

 

[bc1910]

"Most people" include a lot of casual players in general, and/or a lot of people who have trouble with characters that have a learning curve.

Therefore, because someone cant be good with the character, it must be the character's fault.

Alternatively, you play against enough people in the above group who are trying out Greninja to poor effect, and you reach the implication that the character's at fault for the player's flaws.

...Really, the same could be said of any character that isn't as pick-up-and-go as Mario or Diddy or most other agile characters.

You're right in what you say, and I should have made this clearer, but I was really referring to competitive players. Dabuz rates Greninja fairly low on all his tier lists, Seagull just posted one where Greninja was in the middle with characters like Bowser (so not bad, but not likely to take tournies) and Shi-Gaming just keeps ranking him lower and lower. Even ZeRo just placed Greninja 24th, and he thinks quite highly of him. So a lot of people think he's unviable or just barely scraping viable while with his mobility stats you'd expect a solid high tier at least. Is it due to his lack of tourney rep? Or is his moveset really just that bad? I don't feel like it is but it just feels like Greninja should have done something post-Apex by now.

 

[Zelder]

I feel like Greninja's problem is that, in the mindset of the general populace, there's nothing he does that Shiek doesn't do better. I think Mario had the same problem in regards to Diddy before the patches.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You're right in what you say, and I should have made this clearer, but I was really referring to competitive players. Dabuz rates Greninja fairly low on all his tier lists, Seagull just posted one where Greninja was in the middle with characters like Bowser (so not bad, but not likely to take tournies) and Shi-Gaming just keeps ranking him lower and lower. Even ZeRo just placed Greninja 24th, and he thinks quite highly of him. So a lot of people think he's unviable or just barely scraping viable while with his mobility stats you'd expect a solid high tier at least. Is it due to his lack of tourney rep? Or is his moveset really just that bad? I don't feel like it is but it just feels like Greninja should have done something post-Apex by now.

The only active is aMSa tho.

 

[Asdioh]

Greninja has the best mobility in the game if you weight vertical and horizontal mobility equally (he's top 6 in every stat including walk speed). He also has burst mobility in Hydro Pump and Shadow Dash with customs on, they're not bouncing fish level good but Hydro Pump in particular is solid. Yet most people think Greninja's not viable. Why do you think that is? Do you think he's unviable? I have some thoughts myself but I want some other opinions.

I think playing him requires a lot of effort and he doesn't really have anything "overwhelming" about him. I would argue Release Greninja, with a lagless, more powerful, bigger hitbox Upsmash, a less laggy Shuriken, a Hydro Pump that was insanely strong, and (the potential for) an amazing DACUS would definitely have "overwhelming" aspects, coupled with his great mobility, and he would be far, far more popular than he currently is. People like easy wins though, so you don't see him much. And yeah, his side/upB are definitely not B.Fish/M.Flip/Q.Attack level. Maybe the set-distance Shadow Sneak could be used to escape juggles? but even that one has a decent amount of endlag, I believe. Hydro Pump is good for recovery, but I don't see it being used as easily as Bouncing Fish to escape juggles. Unrelated, but I think his explosive DownB is an awesome custom! I'd say people don't use it enough, but I don't know because nobody uses Greninja!


I just checked something, and thought this was interesting! If you add the startup of all of Kirby's 3 tilts, you get 13 frames, which is only beaten by Mac's 12 frames! And Megaman ties with 13 frames, but does Ftilt really count?
If you add the startup of Jab+all 3 tilts, you get 16 frames, which is only beaten by Mac's 13 frames! And again Megaman stuff.
Ryu probably has faster startups on tilts, but who cares Kirby has a frame 1 crouch.
So basically Kirby has overall faster startups on his 3 tilts+jab than any character except Mac. Even Sheik and Luigi! He also gets amazing rewards off of his up and down tilts.
He has no burst mobility though (outside Upper Cutter, which is awesome, but unreactable vertical speed will only get you so far, especially when it puts you in freefall). Also his jab2 doesn't combo into jab3, people can hit you out of it with fast nairs/jabs, or shield if they know what they're doing.

 

[Ulevo]

Greninja has the best mobility in the game if you weight vertical and horizontal mobility equally (he's top 6 in every stat including walk speed). He also has burst mobility in Hydro Pump and Shadow Dash with customs on, they're not bouncing fish level good but Hydro Pump in particular is solid. Yet most people think Greninja's not viable. Why do you think that is? Do you think he's unviable? I have some thoughts myself but I want some other opinions.

I did not give Greninja the credit he deserved at first. And while I will not definitively say where he should be, tier wise, he is going to remain underrated for a long time, most likely. Greninja is the Ice Climbers of Smash IV. The reason no one is doing well with him is because he requires lab time, significantly more so than many other characters. The fact that his hallmark players is Japanese and thus gets limited exposure here also does not do the character any favours.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Jab is really good since it sets up for aerials like nair or fair. dtilt doesnt do this. I would never say Wario has a bad jab, especially since it still has equal range on the first hit and better range on the second hit than dtilt. they just have different uses, bro.

Wrong. The angle jab 2 launches makes it incredibly easy to avoid any potential follow ups from Wario, and this is moot when his jab does not connect reliably. (The patch tried to fix this but it's still unreliable.) Dtilt, on the other hand, is a safe hit confirm that can lead to many strong follow ups. This is all on top of the fact that DTilt is faster and has more range than jab1.

 

[Locke 06]

I just checked something, and thought this was interesting! If you add the startup of all of Kirby's 3 tilts, you get 13 frames, which is only beaten by Mac's 12 frames! And Megaman ties with 13 frames, but does Ftilt really count?
If you add the startup of Jab+all 3 tilts, you get 16 frames, which is only beaten by Mac's 13 frames! And again Megaman stuff.

Mega man jab/NAir is f7 and ftilt is either f7 or f8.

If people think pellets are f2, why don't they think he's high tier? If I had f2 pellets, everyone would be dead.

Carry on.

 

[Asdioh]

Mega man jab/NAir is f7 and ftilt is either f7 or f8.

If people think pellets are f2, why don't they think he's high tier? If I had f2 pellets, everyone would be dead.

Carry on.

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
I need a new source man! This isn't updated, and neither is that janky website that people keep linking to that only has a few characters updated, and is basically impossible to navigate unless you're directly linked to something. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed this website

So anyway yay for Kirby and Lil' Sebastian Mac.

 

[Speed Boost]

But if bowser jr. lacked the options to perform well (ie. was a bad character), then tweek wouldn't be able to do well with him, and certainly wouldn't win.

I'm not saying he is bad, but great players can make average characters look great. For example, Nairo with Pit, Robin and Zelda. Those characters aren't considered top tiers either.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The fact that his hallmark players is Japanese and thus gets limited exposure here also does not do the character any favours.

Fwiw that player doesn't actually place that well in Japan. It's pretty rare to see him place in the single digits and he usually ends up getting like 13th or 25th. Same deal with Abadango.

 

[Speed Boost]

There is literally nothing in Smash 4 which is closer to melee, than it is to brawl.

Speed, lag, edges, hitstun, momentum while jumping, dashing. Its all brawl mechanics. I truly dont understand why people say smash 4 is its own unique game different to melee and brawl. What is different? Melee and brawl were polar opposite and smash 4 doesnt sit in between them, its directly next to brawl. IMO of course, I just dont see it.

And I cant agree with the last sentence because I've heard it all before. 'Olimar will never be a good character in brawl because his recovery is so bad and he can die at 0%'. Funny how that ended up with him being 2nd on the tier list in brawl over time.

So much theory onto why Mewtwo is bad is based on assumptions, the exact same assumptions that plagued brawls early days.

I wish more people could relate to the pre-campy era of wario, sonic and olimar in brawl. Where those mains one day decided that they could choose to camp and suddenly they all shot up the tier list.

And for the record, falcon could do all of those things in brawl too. The only thing that has changed is his grab is far better and sideb is a legitimate kill move. He appears better in this game because no longer does he have to contend with the unbreakable walls of MK/marth fair, ddd bair and ice climbers and a lot of other characters have had their outrageous spacing moves nerfed since then.

The fact that characters actually have combos and followups is more similar to Brawl or Melee? You tell me. Captain Falcon has had basically the same stuff since 64.

The ledge mechanic and presence of followups appear to lend Smash 4 to more offensive gameplay than Brawl.

 

[bc1910]

Fwiw that player doesn't actually place that well in Japan. It's pretty rare to see him place in the single digits and he usually ends up getting like 13th or 25th. Same deal with Abadango.

Yep. Even aMSa hasn't done anything since Apex, and he uses Pikachu in customs now so we won't see anything of Greninja at EVO.

 

[Ffamran]

Can't you still look or try to look for other Greninja players? aMSa's not the only Greninja player in the world and not the only good Greninja player in the world people should be paying attention to. Hell, there might be a "Dark.Greninja" somewhere who can help advance the metagame significantly, but not someone who'll compete for various reasons. The issue is looking for them.

Anyway, how's the new Ftilt working for Greninja?

 

[A2ZOMG]

On yet another topic, I wonder what anyone think about . He is definitely can put up some work, and Nado gimps still scares to to this day (Hell. I use it and still feel scary on it's knockback).

Doc is okay, definitely does well in specific matchups, including a few against high/top tier characters. Main really stupid matchup for him is ZSS, given he has a lot of trouble chasing her Down-B and his devastating edgeguards are less useful in that matchup compared to others. Very underrated character against short characters like Ness and Diddy.

Change of topic: Zelda's buffs are a very big deal, and give her many more combo opportunities off her N-air and D-air. You have ages to confirm something like D-air -> U-air for KOs at like 100%, which you can set up for instance by baiting and reacting to a spotdodge (not really out of the question, as Zelda has a good Dashgrab). Zelda's N-air likewise can combo into D-tilt, U-tilt, and Up-B as of the patch changes.

The changes to Zelda are a minor nerf to her throw game, as it's much harder to specifically deal full damage with D-throw -> N-air (though in neutral, it's easier to land the more damaging front hits of N-air), but Zelda now has KO confirms from aerials that are not hugely dependent on precise spacing.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

There is literally nothing in Smash 4 which is closer to melee, than it is to brawl.

Speed, lag, edges, hitstun, momentum while jumping, dashing. Its all brawl mechanics. I truly dont understand why people say smash 4 is its own unique game different to melee and brawl. What is different? Melee and brawl were polar opposite and smash 4 doesnt sit in between them, its directly next to brawl. IMO of course, I just dont see it.

And I cant agree with the last sentence because I've heard it all before. 'Olimar will never be a good character in brawl because his recovery is so bad and he can die at 0%'. Funny how that ended up with him being 2nd on the tier list in brawl over time.

So much theory onto why Mewtwo is bad is based on assumptions, the exact same assumptions that plagued brawls early days.

I wish more people could relate to the pre-campy era of wario, sonic and olimar in brawl. Where those mains one day decided that they could choose to camp and suddenly they all shot up the tier list.

And for the record, falcon could do all of those things in brawl too. The only thing that has changed is his grab is far better and sideb is a legitimate kill move. He appears better in this game because no longer does he have to contend with the unbreakable walls of MK/marth fair, ddd bair and ice climbers and a lot of other characters have had their outrageous spacing moves nerfed since then.

Well if that's your opinion then you are entitled to it.
Brawl Falcon had the tools to be a threat. However, hitstun canceling kinda screwed him over (no combos whatsoever, making the Knee just a glorified Zelda Fair), and as you mentioned ridiculous spacing moves invalidating him. Also the new ledge mechanics help him out a ton. He had one of the worst recoveries in Brawl but now it's half-decent. Sure not a lot changed about FALCON but everything around falcon changed so he suddenly became disgusting.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Can't you still look or try to look for other Greninja players? aMSa's not the only Greninja player in the world and not the only good Greninja player in the world people should be paying attention to. Hell, there might be a "Dark.Greninja" somewhere who can help advance the metagame significantly, but not someone who'll compete for various reasons. The issue is looking for them.

Anyway, how's the new Ftilt working for Greninja?

Japan has a ton of insanely good Greninja players. He's treated like a whole different character over there. The way Japanese players have approached is downright inspiring so I'm surprised that a lot of tactics they use haven't caught on in the West yet. I also feel like this is why the first two have been neglected with buffs so far but, I digress...

 

[bc1910]

Can't you still look or try to look for other Greninja players? aMSa's not the only Greninja player in the world and not the only good Greninja player in the world people should be paying attention to. Hell, there might be a "Dark.Greninja" somewhere who can help advance the metagame significantly, but not someone who'll compete for various reasons. The issue is looking for them.

Anyway, how's the new Ftilt working for Greninja?

I think the new Ftilt is great, has a lot of utility since it can be used out of a pivot. I think it's really helpful in certain MUs like Sheik and Fox where you can't outcamp them, but you need to keep them at arm's length. It's great against typical close rangers like Ryu and Roy as well.

Greninja would make a hell of a lot more sense with his old shurikens. Right now his long range and close range games leave a lot to be desired whilst the old shurikens allowed him to zone lightly and be opportunistic, like -dare I say it- a ninja. At least the Ftilt buff helps his close range a bit, and whilst his mid range is already good, it has utility there as well due to its excellent range and use out of a pivot.

 

[warionumbah2]

Japan hasn't done anything with MK thats special, I'd say they're mid level. They can't even do footstool combos, I wouldn't put MK in the same group as bj, villager, pac man and frog since they're way behind the meta and all the top MKs are in the US.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
I need a new source man! This isn't updated, and neither is that janky website that people keep linking to that only has a few characters updated, and is basically impossible to navigate unless you're directly linked to something. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed this website

So anyway yay for Kirby and Lil' Sebastian Mac.

;____;

 

[Dagon97]

With the threat that the CF infinite now holds what should certain characters do?

 

[PUK]

learn to shield?

 

[Ikes]

Wrong. The angle jab 2 launches makes it incredibly easy to avoid any potential follow ups from Wario, and this is moot when his jab does not connect reliably. (The patch tried to fix this but it's still unreliable.) Dtilt, on the other hand, is a safe hit confirm that can lead to many strong follow ups. This is all on top of the fact that DTilt is faster and has more range than jab1.

i have never found a situation where down tilt works better in the same situation i'd be using jab.
his jab is powerful, man.

also ive never had trouble with his jab connecting so the patch did nothing for me.

 

[Ulevo]

Japan has a ton of insanely good Greninja players. He's treated like a whole different character over there. The way Japanese players have approached is downright inspiring so I'm surprised that a lot of tactics they use haven't caught on in the West yet. I also feel like this is why the first two have been neglected with buffs so far but, I digress...

I would not exactly call the way the Japanese approached Meta Knight inspiring. Selena is the only notable Meta Knight player thus far.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Japan has a ton of insanely good Greninja players.

Oh yeah? Tell me all about them please.

 

[Djent]

While compiling Japanese results (shameless plug), I have not found a single top 8 regional placement for Greninja since WiiU launch. Bowser Jr. and MK have one each. Which of course is not that remarkable even compared to the US scene.

 

[momochuu]

there is about 4 greninja players on the same level or better than amsa in japan. amsa on his stream said lea is a better greninja than he is. nobody in the west is going to play greninja because he requires work. why pick greninja when you can pick sheik and mash needles and fair?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about when it comes to Japanese Greninja players:

There's just a degree of creativity taken with this character that I don't really see with Western players of him.

 

[Nu~]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about when it comes to Japanese Greninja players:

There's just a degree of creativity taken with this character that I don't really see with Western players of him.

Probably because many westerners favor "Most safe setup" over creative ones unfortunately.

 

[Locke 06]

Probably because many westerners favor "Most safe setup" over creative ones unfortunately.

NAir footstool dair repeat>usmash isn't unsafe or creative. It should be the standard max punish. It's not even that hard to do once you land the NAir.

Creative is doing something that's not guaranteed and/or new. Nair>footstool is like saying zss up air>up-B chain is creative.

 

[Nu~]

NAir footstool dair repeat>usmash isn't unsafe or creative. It should be the standard max punish. It's not even that hard to do once you land the NAir.

That isn't what I was referring to.

I was referring to the way he used substitute and Shadow Sneak. I was also talking about Japanese players in general like Abadango and AmSa