Character Competitive Impressions

[Zelder]

Other multiplayer games or hell, other games in general still receive patch notes. If we do or if we don't, people will complain, but I'd rather learn about what and why things were patched even if they're the usual BS like, "attending to the consumer's needs", as a description to why Diddy's Uair was nerfed or, "removing glitches", for the ledge cancels which probably will get removed in the future for rapid jabs. Oh, your favorite character got nerfed, what are you going to do? Complain? 'Cause that's all you can do. Seriously, this is why I wanted Falco, Zelda, Samus, and other "low tier" characters to be nerfed severely, buff top tiers like Diddy, Sheik, and Rosalina heavily, and an issue from the developers basically giving a giant middle finger to the community, but we know Nintendo. Hell, we know companies and no company wants to commit suicide like that... except Konami... It's their game, they can do whatever the hell they want, but is that much of a problem to release patch notes? Apparently for Nintendo, it's like giving out their bank accounts to the public. Meanwhile, Capcom releases patch notes or edition notes for each Street Fighter IV and DICE releases patch notes for Battlefield 3, 4, and more and people still complain...

Character's been nerfed, boo-freaking-hoo, cry me a freaking river. Go play a different character then, go prove this character is still good then, or leave and do something else. Complain, complain, and complain. Y'know, back then, people complained and actually did something. That something, however, usually involved violence and senseless killings, but whatever. At least they complained over something that mattered or had a huge impact on the world. It's game; find something else to do or just move on.

I wasn't talking about patch notes, I was talking about players getting involved in the patch process. I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Ffamran]

I wasn't talking about patch notes, I was talking about players getting involved in the patch process. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I like ranting.

 

[Fatmanonice]

If Sheik, Rosalina and Sonic are toned down to, say, Captain Falcon's level of good, then Nintendo can move forward with these buffs for characters on the lower end of the spectrum like they've been doing. Next patch, maybe a little more love to Zelda, Doc, Mewtwo and Jiggs. Then the bottom keeps shrinking until the whole cast feels like the middle.

I'd add to your buff list too because I don't think any characters need to rely on custom builds to be semi-decent. They're both arguably viable with customs on but kind of yeesh without them.

 

[Smog Frog]

you sleep on , will sleep on you

but seriously, nobody knows anything about . after the nerfs to what would have been her bane() she has a strong case for upper mid tier. once people get the rest setups down she's gonna be a real threat.

on paper, she has decent matchups vs top tiers. can do crouch shenanigans vs the usual offenders(, etc.) and can easily combo into rest vs them. she can actually rest out of jab jab, so a big part of his gameplay is made risky because can schleep right out of it.

but this is just on paper, would be great if a actually existed to show results.

tl;dr dont sleep on unless you wish to be slept upon

 

[TriTails]

Improtant matchups that I think Ryu wins:

You sure about that? Luigi out-hadokens Ryu, and... I think he is a combo food. I don't know his combo status, but he is definitely comboable (Why am I even writing this? Luigi can combo freaking Jigglypuff to like 42% with D-air spike shenanigans). I'm not too sure on his damage output (I heard they are very high), but Luigi definitely doesn't lose much on damage. He deals as much damage as Ryu gets in.

But meh. I have yet to see Ryu vs Luigi. But TBH, Luigi trades better than any of the character you listed (Lol 14% B-air), combos Ryu better, and have better kill setups (Except the back throw. You know who I mean). Not too sure on Ryu's side because I don't have him.

 

[Kofu]

you sleep on , will sleep on you

but seriously, nobody knows anything about . after the nerfs to what would have been her bane() she has a strong case for upper mid tier. once people get the rest setups down she's gonna be a real threat.

on paper, she has decent matchups vs top tiers. can do crouch shenanigans vs the usual offenders(, etc.) and can easily combo into rest vs them. she can actually rest out of jab jab, so a big part of his gameplay is made risky because can schleep right out of it.

but this is just on paper, would be great if a actually existed to show results.

tl;dr dont sleep on unless you wish to be slept upon

You don't want to get close to Jigglypuff to fight her since that's where she thrives. Outspace her and wall her out.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You don't want to get close to Jigglypuff to fight her since that's where she thrives. Outspace her and wall her out.

Pretty much this. are some of the viable options that do really well against her because they basically beat her at her own game with aerials options that are faster, have more priority, and better range, not to mention projectiles that can keep her at a distance and force her to approach.

 

[Ikes]

Acestarthe3rd has convinced me that Toon Link is high tier

just look at how he plays, Toon link's pressure and projectile game is phenomenal and the goddamn setups man
toon link is scary in this meta

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja also does well against Jigglypuff because he outranges her with pretty much everything, disjointed or not.

Plus Jigglypuff is frequently going to be zipping around in Up-Smash range which can easily get her killed at like 71% without factoring in rage.

Helps that Greninja has a top 5 recovery too and Jigglypuff can't gimp him very well unless she gets a read.

I think she might be Greninja's best MU really. There's not much she can do to him since she gets walled out by disjoints and outranged in general while being easier to kill. Plus Greninja's air speed while not better than hers is good enough to let him contest with her in the air.

 

[Browny]

Okay let me just say something about this. Yes, I do support your point about weight, but you're not looking at every factor. It's not just Mewtwo dying 10% earlier (which by the way, isn't true. It's at least 20). It's the fact that his hurtbox is huge and his mobility is lackluster and he lacks the ability to overwhelm your opponent. Why do I mention this? Look at all the past smash games. What do the top tiers have in common? They're light. Pikachu, Fox, Meta Knight, and Sheik were all pretty light in their games. But what do they have that Mewtwo doesn't? Overwhelming speed and Frame data. And if Mewtwo had those we'd be crying for nerfs.

Smash 64 and melee are irrelevant. Smash Wii U is brawl 2.0 and only comparisons to brawl are accurate.

High up in brawls list were Snake and DDD while down at the bottom were the likes of mario and falcon.

Rushdown is good, but there are other options which players exploit and there is no better than brawl DDD. By literally camping with bair all day he nullified a lot of characters. Intrinsically DDD was a bad character but the fact that he could camp you all day long made him pretty good.

This is why I think Falcon is grossly overrated. Once people camp him HARD he will start to suffer. Hes the same as brawl with a few buffs to some moves, he is still really unsafe on block and many characters can wall him out.

You dont need to be rushdown to be a good character, you just need a playstyle that maximises the potential of a character. Wario is the same as he was in brawl where you can choose to play normally, or play to win. No one ever got far with him in brawl by trying to only use attacks that came out quickly, they did it by waiting... waiting and waiting.

Thats what I think Mewtwo users need to do more. His dtilt is actually really hard to punish and shadowball will stuff any aerial approach. People just need to actually play the 'you come to me' game instead of fighting them normally. And if the enemy has the % lead and wants to run away, fine, more time to charge shadowball. They are eventually going to slip up and when they do, its going to cost them.

I have played Mewtwo and awful lot and I dont feel anywhere near as limited as many other characters. No matter how much I may be losing I know that I just need to play more careful, campy and get a few reads. Most characters just dont even have that option and if they get a good read they cant punish.

I know Mewtwo has issues and is on the lower half of the list but I also think many people are playing him wrong. And I have plenty of reasons to believe that when it took over a year for Sonic, Olimar and Wario mains in brawl to realise their optimal playstyle, resulting in like a +15 spot tier list jump once they camped like there was no tomorrow.

 

[TriTails]

I'm pretty dang sure Luigi doesn't do as well vs Jigglypuff. He has roughly same range, and his airspeed is laughable. Though, his aerials are killers and can challenge Jiggs'. She gimps him well because N-air out-prioritizing everything.

Though, she still dies ridiculously early from Nado, and U-smash is a big boon in this MU. Might lean to even, but maybe Luigi doesn't lose. He just doesn't do as well and Jigglypuff is annoying to fight due to Luigi's mobility. We don't combo her, but her booty survivability makes it feasible to just do aerials and kill her with something like rising Cyclone or U-smash.

 

[Nu~]

I don't want to bring up another huge argument, but what was sakurai's stance on customs again?

I keep hearing that he didn't balance them like he did the normal specials of each character.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Smash 64 and melee are irrelevant. Smash Wii U is brawl 2.0 and only comparisons to brawl are accurate.

High up in brawls list were Snake and DDD while down at the bottom were the likes of mario and falcon.

Rushdown is good, but there are other options which players exploit and there is no better than brawl DDD. By literally camping with bair all day he nullified a lot of characters. Intrinsically DDD was a bad character but the fact that he could camp you all day long made him pretty good.

This is why I think Falcon is grossly overrated. Once people camp him HARD he will start to suffer. Hes the same as brawl with a few buffs to some moves, he is still really unsafe on block and many characters can wall him out.

You dont need to be rushdown to be a good character, you just need a playstyle that maximises the potential of a character. Wario is the same as he was in brawl where you can choose to play normally, or play to win. No one ever got far with him in brawl by trying to only use attacks that came out quickly, they did it by waiting... waiting and waiting.

Thats what I think Mewtwo users need to do more. His dtilt is actually really hard to punish and shadowball will stuff any aerial approach. People just need to actually play the 'you come to me' game instead of fighting them normally. And if the enemy has the % lead and wants to run away, fine, more time to charge shadowball. They are eventually going to slip up and when they do, its going to cost them.

I have played Mewtwo and awful lot and I dont feel anywhere near as limited as many other characters. No matter how much I may be losing I know that I just need to play more careful, campy and get a few reads. Most characters just dont even have that option and if they get a good read they cant punish.

I know Mewtwo has issues and is on the lower half of the list but I also think many people are playing him wrong. And I have plenty of reasons to believe that when it took over a year for Sonic, Olimar and Wario mains in brawl to realise their optimal playstyle, resulting in like a +15 spot tier list jump once they camped like there was no tomorrow.

Did you play brawl?

 

[webbedspace]

I don't want to bring up another huge argument, but what was sakurai's stance on customs again?

I keep hearing that he didn't balance them like he did the normal specials of each character.

I don't have the exact quote but it broadly refers to "customisation" (which could mean both moves and equipment) and has been largely miscontextualised in many places.

Anyway, such a question belongs in one of the ruleset threads.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Has Wario ever been touched?

Spoiler

No Warioware pun intended

He got a slight Jab buff in this patch that doesn't matter since the move is still bad and inferior to DTilt.

Aside from that, removing Wectoring which was a glitch (RIP)

 

[Blobface]

I don't want to bring up another huge argument, but what was sakurai's stance on customs again?

I keep hearing that he didn't balance them like he did the normal specials of each character.

Sakurai has been mistranslated, misquoted, and misinterpreted so many times that even if what he thought about how the game should be played was relevant to making rulesets (which it isn't), we still wouldn't use it because of how bloody unreliable it is. Take anything "Sakurai" "said" with a grain of salt.

 

[Speed Boost]

Smash 64 and melee are irrelevant. Smash Wii U is brawl 2.0 and only comparisons to brawl are accurate.

High up in brawls list were Snake and DDD while down at the bottom were the likes of mario and falcon.

Rushdown is good, but there are other options which players exploit and there is no better than brawl DDD. By literally camping with bair all day he nullified a lot of characters. Intrinsically DDD was a bad character but the fact that he could camp you all day long made him pretty good.

This is why I think Falcon is grossly overrated. Once people camp him HARD he will start to suffer. Hes the same as brawl with a few buffs to some moves, he is still really unsafe on block and many characters can wall him out.

You dont need to be rushdown to be a good character, you just need a playstyle that maximises the potential of a character. Wario is the same as he was in brawl where you can choose to play normally, or play to win. No one ever got far with him in brawl by trying to only use attacks that came out quickly, they did it by waiting... waiting and waiting.

Thats what I think Mewtwo users need to do more. His dtilt is actually really hard to punish and shadowball will stuff any aerial approach. People just need to actually play the 'you come to me' game instead of fighting them normally. And if the enemy has the % lead and wants to run away, fine, more time to charge shadowball. They are eventually going to slip up and when they do, its going to cost them.

I have played Mewtwo and awful lot and I dont feel anywhere near as limited as many other characters. No matter how much I may be losing I know that I just need to play more careful, campy and get a few reads. Most characters just dont even have that option and if they get a good read they cant punish.

I know Mewtwo has issues and is on the lower half of the list but I also think many people are playing him wrong. And I have plenty of reasons to believe that when it took over a year for Sonic, Olimar and Wario mains in brawl to realise their optimal playstyle, resulting in like a +15 spot tier list jump once they camped like there was no tomorrow.

I played very little brawl, but I did play enough to know that calling Smash 4 "Brawl 2.0" is kinda silly. It's like calling it Melee 3.0, it's completely baseless. Of course there are similarities, they are both Smash Bros.

I understand that there are a lot of characters who have untapped potential but your jumping to some conclusions based on nothing but your gut.

Captin Falcon is a very strong character and while he does have some options that aren't safe on block he can be played without throwing out those options at a very high level. You can space with Bair and Nair, his grab game is too notch. Oh, and he has no problem conditioning people to shield with his speed and power. He also has no problem killing.

One more thing, and regarless of play style or advancement of Mewtwo's meta he is still gonna die at 90%. He is too light to ever be good. He also struggles to keep rush down characters at bay because an uncharged shadow ball isn't much of a zoning tool and he is too slow to run away.

 

[shadowmm151]

Sakurai has been mistranslated, misquoted, and misinterpreted so many times that even if what he thought about how the game should be played was relevant to making rulesets (which it isn't), we still wouldn't use it because of how bloody unreliable it is. Take anything "Sakurai" "said" with a grain of salt.

Yeah. Does it even matter what Sakurai thinks? We should do things our way like we always have. Let's face it: there might be a lot of competitive smashers, but in reality competitive players pale in comparison to the casuals. When he's making a game why should he focus on us instead of the MILLIONS of casuals that will be the ones to make him (and Nintendo of course) the real money?

That being said, Sakurai, while FFA should be the focus, has kept up patches that have been pretty decent overall. Considering we're the minority...that's pretty cool of him.

 

[TriTails]

Sakurai has been mistranslated, misquoted, and misinterpreted so many times that even if what he thought about how the game should be played was relevant to making rulesets (which it isn't), we still wouldn't use it because of how bloody unreliable it is. Take anything "Sakurai" "said" with a grain of salt.

Eventhubs: 'There will be no more balance patches, Sakurai said'
*2 balance patches came out*

 

[Speed Boost]

Eventhubs: 'There will be no more balance patches, Sakurai said'
*2 balance patches came out*

Sakurai? More like "Sakurlie"....

 

[Lavani]

Eventhubs: 'There will be no more balance patches, Sakurai said'
*2 balance patches came out*

The quote was more like "We don't have plans for more balance patches at this time"

Which, really, when you just pushed out a balance patch, you're doing it under the assumption that you fixed things, so why would you be planning to release another one immediately?

Glad we're past those days anyway, was annoying seeing people insisting balance patches were never going to happen and Diddy would remain eternal god.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The reason why Sakurai doesn't release patch notes is because, if he did, thousands of 10 year olds would be complaining about how "OP Ike is" on Miiverse right now because of all the recent buffs he got. Or saying "plz buff my character mashed potato samurai".

Would you want to put up with that? ...yeah. Me neither.

 

[Nu~]

The reason why Sakurai doesn't release patch notes is because, if he did, thousands of 10 year olds would be complaining about how "OP Ike is" on Miiverse right now because of all the recent buffs he got. Or saying "plz buff my character mashed potato samurai".

Would you want to put up with that? ...yeah. Me neither.

Im inclined to agree with you, but 10 years olds wouldn't know how big an impact 4% can have, let alone what a frame is lol.

 

[Speed Boost]

Without patch notes casuals will never see what "balancing" has been done and the won't give it much thought. In other words, the way they do things lends itself to less scrutiny, because so few people will spend the time and effort to find out what was changed.

 

[Unknownkid]

Im inclined to agree with you, but 10 years olds wouldn't know how big an impact 4% can have, let alone what a frame is lol.

I believe he referring to the Mental Age not the Physical Age. You know how grown up gamers can act like children. In other news, Tweek won this week Xanadu! How many more battles does he need to win in order for Bowser Jr. to move up the tier list?

 

[Speed Boost]

I believe he referring to the Mental Age not the Physical Age. You know how grown up gamers can act like children. In other news, Tweek won this week Xanadu! How many more battles does he need to win in order for Bowser Jr. to move up the tier list?

One great player playing a character doesn't make a character great. No one else is playing Bowser Jr. at that level.

 

[webbedspace]

In other news, Tweek won this week Xanadu!

while Boss, GimR and Seagull were away, you mean (a bit of a shame, that - those matches would've been lovely).

 

[Ghostbone]

One great player playing a character doesn't make a character great. No one else is playing Bowser Jr. at that level.

But if bowser jr. lacked the options to perform well (ie. was a bad character), then tweek wouldn't be able to do well with him, and certainly wouldn't win.

 

[Seagull Joe]

while Boss, GimR and Seagull were away, you mean (a bit of a shame, that - those matches would've been lovely).

GimR would've got destroyed. Boss I don't know. I went to Xanadu to MM Tweek and play friendlies with others. I lost 0-2. That guy sure knows the matchup and I def wasn't expecting all the tricksies he had. Tweek is so good lol.

I believe he referring to the Mental Age not the Physical Age. You know how grown up gamers can act like children. In other news, Tweek won this week Xanadu! How many more battles does he need to win in order for Bowser Jr. to move up the tier list?

He's a C tier character honestly. He's like mid-high.

But if bowser jr. lacked the options to perform well (ie. was a bad character), then tweek wouldn't be able to do well with him, and certainly wouldn't win.

He's the of 4 aka the best mid tier or worst high tier. I did so many things with in brawl, but the limitations a mid tier has are quite noticeable.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Smash 64 and melee are irrelevant. Smash Wii U is brawl 2.0 and only comparisons to brawl are accurate.

High up in brawls list were Snake and DDD while down at the bottom were the likes of mario and falcon.

Rushdown is good, but there are other options which players exploit and there is no better than brawl DDD. By literally camping with bair all day he nullified a lot of characters. Intrinsically DDD was a bad character but the fact that he could camp you all day long made him pretty good.

This is why I think Falcon is grossly overrated. Once people camp him HARD he will start to suffer. Hes the same as brawl with a few buffs to some moves, he is still really unsafe on block and many characters can wall him out.

You dont need to be rushdown to be a good character, you just need a playstyle that maximises the potential of a character. Wario is the same as he was in brawl where you can choose to play normally, or play to win. No one ever got far with him in brawl by trying to only use attacks that came out quickly, they did it by waiting... waiting and waiting.

Thats what I think Mewtwo users need to do more. His dtilt is actually really hard to punish and shadowball will stuff any aerial approach. People just need to actually play the 'you come to me' game instead of fighting them normally. And if the enemy has the % lead and wants to run away, fine, more time to charge shadowball. They are eventually going to slip up and when they do, its going to cost them.

I have played Mewtwo and awful lot and I dont feel anywhere near as limited as many other characters. No matter how much I may be losing I know that I just need to play more careful, campy and get a few reads. Most characters just dont even have that option and if they get a good read they cant punish.

I know Mewtwo has issues and is on the lower half of the list but I also think many people are playing him wrong. And I have plenty of reasons to believe that when it took over a year for Sonic, Olimar and Wario mains in brawl to realise their optimal playstyle, resulting in like a +15 spot tier list jump once they camped like there was no tomorrow.

I lost you at "Brawl 2.0"

 

[Browny]

I played very little brawl, but I did play enough to know that calling Smash 4 "Brawl 2.0" is kinda silly. It's like calling it Melee 3.0, it's completely baseless. Of course there are similarities, they are both Smash Bros.

I understand that there are a lot of characters who have untapped potential but your jumping to some conclusions based on nothing but your gut.

Captin Falcon is a very strong character and while he does have some options that aren't safe on block he can be played without throwing out those options at a very high level. You can space with Bair and Nair, his grab game is too notch. Oh, and he has no problem conditioning people to shield with his speed and power. He also has no problem killing.

One more thing, and regarless of play style or advancement of Mewtwo's meta he is still gonna die at 90%. He is too light to ever be good. He also struggles to keep rush down characters at bay because an uncharged shadow ball isn't much of a zoning tool and he is too slow to run away.

There is literally nothing in Smash 4 which is closer to melee, than it is to brawl.

Speed, lag, edges, hitstun, momentum while jumping, dashing. Its all brawl mechanics. I truly dont understand why people say smash 4 is its own unique game different to melee and brawl. What is different? Melee and brawl were polar opposite and smash 4 doesnt sit in between them, its directly next to brawl. IMO of course, I just dont see it.

And I cant agree with the last sentence because I've heard it all before. 'Olimar will never be a good character in brawl because his recovery is so bad and he can die at 0%'. Funny how that ended up with him being 2nd on the tier list in brawl over time.

So much theory onto why Mewtwo is bad is based on assumptions, the exact same assumptions that plagued brawls early days.

I wish more people could relate to the pre-campy era of wario, sonic and olimar in brawl. Where those mains one day decided that they could choose to camp and suddenly they all shot up the tier list.

And for the record, falcon could do all of those things in brawl too. The only thing that has changed is his grab is far better and sideb is a legitimate kill move. He appears better in this game because no longer does he have to contend with the unbreakable walls of MK/marth fair, ddd bair and ice climbers and a lot of other characters have had their outrageous spacing moves nerfed since then.

 

[Ikes]

He got a slight Jab buff in this patch that doesn't matter since the move is still bad and inferior to DTilt.

Aside from that, removing Wectoring which was a glitch (RIP)

Jab is really good since it sets up for aerials like nair or fair. dtilt doesnt do this. I would never say Wario has a bad jab, especially since it still has equal range on the first hit and better range on the second hit than dtilt. they just have different uses, bro.

 

[Browny]

And before people get all mad, I'm not saying Mewtwo is a great character and I acknowledge his flaws.

I'm just saying from my perspective, I put a lot of work into him and other characters and when I adapt an obnoxiously campy playstyle I do far better. Same with Ness, space with fair for days, retreating nair oos if anyone gets near you and pk thunder spam like crazy if they go offstage. Its obnoxious, it runs the timer and it looks awful, but it wins. If I choose to do none of these I am going to fare far worse in any given match. Same with Mewtwo where if I play like I would most characters I get wrecked but if I camp for every second of a match, it makes things much more easier.

I just dont see other M2 players really doing that to that degree. You dont have to look far to find a Pacman who will camp until your eyes bleed watching it, why dont people put the same campy effort into mewtwo. People wouldnt be so obsessed over his weight if they saw that he can space and spam you effectively to negate that flaw to an extent.

 

[Ikes]

And before people get all mad, I'm not saying Mewtwo is a great character and I acknowledge his flaws.

I'm just saying from my perspective, I put a lot of work into him and other characters and when I adapt an obnoxiously campy playstyle I do far better. Same with Ness, space with fair for days, retreating nair oos if anyone gets near you and pk thunder spam like crazy if they go offstage. Its obnoxious, it runs the timer and it looks awful, but it wins. If I choose to do none of these I am going to fare far worse in any given match. Same with Mewtwo where if I play like I would most characters I get wrecked but if I camp for every second of a match, it makes things much more easier.

I just dont see other M2 players really doing that to that degree. You dont have to look far to find a Pacman who will camp until your eyes bleed watching it, why dont people put the same campy effort into mewtwo. People wouldnt be so obsessed over his weight if they saw that he can space and spam you effectively to negate that flaw to an extent.

i think its cause people just dont like campiness, people understand it sucks to play against and its not very fun to do. I guess people just havent adopted a truly play to win mindset (me included).

 

[Seagull Joe]

I just dont see other M2 players really doing that to that degree. You dont have to look far to find a Pacman who will camp until your eyes bleed watching it, why dont people put the same campy effort into mewtwo. People wouldnt be so obsessed over his weight if they saw that he can space and spam you effectively to negate that flaw to an extent.

It's not the same at all. can hardly ever kill. He is heavier then though and he can platform camp better because of hydrant. being SO light is really bad. Spamming shadow balls isn't even threatening. The comparison isn't there.

's option select just sucks compared to .

There is literally nothing in Smash 4 which is closer to melee, than it is to brawl.

Speed, lag, edges, hitstun, momentum while jumping, dashing. Its all brawl mechanics. I truly dont understand why people say smash 4 is its own unique game different to melee and brawl. What is different? Melee and brawl were polar opposite and smash 4 doesnt sit in between them, its directly next to brawl. IMO of course, I just dont see it.

And I cant agree with the last sentence because I've heard it all before. 'Olimar will never be a good character in brawl because his recovery is so bad and he can die at 0%'. Funny how that ended up with him being 2nd on the tier list in brawl over time.

So much theory onto why Mewtwo is bad is based on assumptions, the exact same assumptions that plagued brawls early days.

I wish more people could relate to the pre-campy era of wario, sonic and olimar in brawl. Where those mains one day decided that they could choose to camp and suddenly they all shot up the tier list.

And for the record, falcon could do all of those things in brawl too. The only thing that has changed is his grab is far better and sideb is a legitimate kill move. He appears better in this game because no longer does he have to contend with the unbreakable walls of MK/marth fair, ddd bair and ice climbers and a lot of other characters have had their outrageous spacing moves nerfed since then.

The most comparable game to smash 4 is Brawl plus. I would fully say that Smash 4 is a combination of 64 throws/sdi/di, melee autothrow combos, and brawl + hitstun/combos.

 

[Ffamran]

There is literally nothing in Smash 4 which is closer to melee, than it is to brawl.

Speed, lag, edges, hitstun, momentum while jumping, dashing. Its all brawl mechanics. I truly dont understand why people say smash 4 is its own unique game different to melee and brawl.

I feel like you could undermine a game's entire existence as a glorified, graphically updated, padded out roster version of Brawl like how PM is basically a glorified, nostalgia-ridden, graphically updated, padded put roster of Melee and is Melee 2.0.

Then again, all sequels are just glorified extensions of the original game. It's all about capturing that profit they once had. Old has-beens trying to make money while never-wases can't do ****, but attempt to fix things and prove something was changed for the better.

What is different? Melee and brawl were polar opposite and smash 4 doesnt sit in between them, its directly next to brawl. IMO of course, I just dont see it.

Besides the obvious of random tripping and ledge mechanics, how aerials and throws work. Aerials are a larger commitment for most if not all the cast minus some characters like Sheik and... Sheik. Aerials being a larger commitment mirror "traditional" fighting games like Street Fighter which also explains Ryu's inertia in the air. This unfortunately wasn't as balanced well, especially at launch and because Smash has a strong air game compared to "traditional" fighting games. Air games defined certain characters like Marth and Wolf while some relied on one or few good to borderline broken aerials like Falco and his Dair.

Throws, well, they're homogenized and generic in Smash 4. Almost everyone uses D-throw to combo, B-throw to kill, U-throw to put your opponent in the air, and F-throw's just there. Few characters actually deviate from this boring design. Seriously, it's lazy design as it basically destroys any uniqueness a throw can be for a character. Anyway, chain-grabbing's gone, so there's that, but characters can grab reset which is just chain-grabbing, but more difficult.

Projectiles are strong like in most games, but Smash 4's weaker when you don't have low end lag or auto-canceling on Fox, Falco, and Snake's older projectiles. Fox's was the least annoying, but still a strong tool compared to now where it's a major commitment to land a 3% to 1% laser that does no hit stun, Falco's was the most notorious as he could effectively control the entire stage, ground and air, and wall you out entirely. Not even Sheik can do that in Smash 4. And Snake? Grenades controlled the stage and could catch angles few characters can ever dream of. It's projectiles that are better than the rest that shine like Sheik's Needles or Luigi's Fireballs and make a strong impact on gameplay, but not enough to invalidate a character's options like Brawl Falco's.

Commitment is huge in this game, but it's "stupid" in a sense that since moves do little shield stun or push in this game, practically nothing is safe unless you're Sheik. That change makes it so few characters can actually pressure shields without being massively punished not to mention the end lag on moves. When Wolf comes back, his Bair probably won't be as strong of a poke as it was in Brawl. It'd be like Fox's Bair at best. Sheik is the only character with a notable poke tool, but it's pitifully weak when it comes to damaging shields. It's what comes next that people will fear from her.

Speaking of commitment, edgeguarding, which I don't see much is now a commitment, but nobody commits to edgeguarding. You have to ensure people die or know for a fact they were gimped. Ledge-hogging doesn't exist, but ledge trumping does. It's a more major commitment to go out there and finish the kill instead of hitting them off and hoping your timing was right for the ledge or that their recovery is going to fail.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

GimR would've got destroyed. Boss I don't know. I went to Xanadu to MM Tweek and play friendlies with others. I lost 0-2. That guy sure knows the matchup and I def wasn't expecting all the tricksies he had. Tweek is so good lol.

He's a C tier character honestly. He's like mid-high.

He's the of 4 aka the best mid tier or worst high tier. I did so many things with in brawl, but the limitations a mid tier has are quite noticeable.

Tweek is really good.

 

[Ikes]

There is literally nothing in Smash 4 which is closer to melee, than it is to brawl.

Speed, lag, edges, hitstun, momentum while jumping, dashing. Its all brawl mechanics. I truly dont understand why people say smash 4 is its own unique game different to melee and brawl. What is different? Melee and brawl were polar opposite and smash 4 doesnt sit in between them, its directly next to brawl. IMO of course, I just dont see it.

And I cant agree with the last sentence because I've heard it all before. 'Olimar will never be a good character in brawl because his recovery is so bad and he can die at 0%'. Funny how that ended up with him being 2nd on the tier list in brawl over time.

So much theory onto why Mewtwo is bad is based on assumptions, the exact same assumptions that plagued brawls early days.

I wish more people could relate to the pre-campy era of wario, sonic and olimar in brawl. Where those mains one day decided that they could choose to camp and suddenly they all shot up the tier list.

And for the record, falcon could do all of those things in brawl too. The only thing that has changed is his grab is far better and sideb is a legitimate kill move. He appears better in this game because no longer does he have to contend with the unbreakable walls of MK/marth fair, ddd bair and ice climbers and a lot of other characters have had their outrageous spacing moves nerfed since then.

no, captain falcon is better now because the physics of brawl gimped him beyond repair.
the idea that one or two moves saved a character and made him top tier is absurd considering the vast differences, engine-wise and character-wise between brawl and 4.

 

[Minordeth]

Hey so those Charizard buffs...

For kicks, I ran through 100 or so matches in FG with the new and improved Zard, and he almost plays like a different character. His hilarious grab range actually has a purpose now, and the ability to get some true combos in mid percents on most of the cast is pretty stellar. Uthrow is far safer as a kill move than Flare Blitz, and given his grab range, its utility is off the charts. Essentially, the jab and throw buffs opened up all his other options into a threatening game plan. He probably has enough versatility in his kit to adapt to just about any character. And this is on flat stages. I can't imagine the cheese the world is going to experience if people start to delve into him.

True, he still has his negatives, what with him being the Big Mac of combo food to Bowsers Whopper, but you can't have everything. Unless you're Sheik.

 

[bc1910]

Zard still can't land, his recovery is sluggish and his moveset is slow/reactable apart from a few key moves.

Thing is, those key moves are so good now that Zard barely needs the rest of his moveset to compete. It's sort of just... there. Waiting for him in case he needs to stop jabbing and grabbing for whatever reason. I'm exaggerating a bit but really, the central moves in Charizard's gameplan are really good now. Good enough to patch up what would otherwise be a lacklustre toolkit (his moveset isn't BAD, he gets a lot from a hit, there's just lots of lag in lots of places).

Charizard destroys FG now. He was always good in that mode because even a little bit of lag makes Flare Blitz exponentially better, but now he can just cheese people out with jabs and grabs, kill with Uthrow, survive to rage % and end their second stock even earlier with Uthrow having not died once. If he does die, no big deal, he'll live forever again and Uthrow kills at reasonable percents even with no rage. If you just want to boost your FG win rating I can't think of a better character to pick now besides Sonic.

I'm happy he got buffed, and also somewhat surprised, I'd have thought his win rate was high because as I said he's always been good online. Assuming his win rate is high, it goes to show Sakurai and his team pay attention to several sources for character balance (they've said this multiple times but it's nice to have proof). What I'm not sure about is if I'm happy with HOW he got buffed. The Dthrow and jab buffs were great, but I'm still not sure about a character this heavy having an Uthrow that kills so early, especially with platforms involved. I think fixing his Uthrow to not land on platforms above him would be reasonable.