• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Character Competitive Impressions

Status
Not open for further replies.

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,095
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
NNID
INFullMoon
Footstool combos aren't creative but Shadow Sneak by itself opens up a lot of possibilities for Greninja if you make creative and smart use of it as a mix-up. Substitute also allows for plenty of shenanigans.

Greninja is very much a mix-up character because once he gets in he has so many options of how to mess you up that he can be very unpredictable unless he's going into auto-pilot.

Of course, playing Greninja takes a lot of effort so why bother when there's Sheik around and people still think Greninja and Sheik play the exact same way?

I feel like Greninja's problem is that, in the mindset of the general populace, there's nothing he does that Shiek doesn't do better. I think Mario had the same problem in regards to Diddy before the patches.
I can already tell you something Greninja does a lot better than Sheik:

Killing.

It's kind of a big thing.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
As long as Sheik has Bouncing Fish KO confirms, she won't struggle to kill.

Think about it this way. You can combo Needles into Bouncing Fish offstage and even onstage depending on Rage and opponent's %. With that in mind, it's not about how difficult it is to land a Bouncing Fish, it's about how difficult it is to land Needles.

Needles.

You know, that invisible, semi-unreactable, riskless, long-range projectile.

Which is also a kill move.

Let that sink in.
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
NAir footstool dair repeat>usmash isn't unsafe or creative. It should be the standard max punish. It's not even that hard to do once you land the NAir.

Creative is doing something that's not guaranteed and/or new. Nair>footstool is like saying zss up air>up-B chain is creative.
The Nair footstool loop only works for one rep, the second footstool can be DI'd so the Dair misses. Nair, footstool, Dair, Nair, Fsmash is the optimal inescapable combo. None of the opponents in that video DI'd anything properly, let alone the footstool loops. They were even killing themselves with their own DI. Pikachu dying sub-90 to Fsmash? Please.

Greninja will always look good in combo videos especially vs people who don't DI. The best part of that video by far was the Shadow Sneak and Substitute punish section. That actually showed some very creative use of moves that can kill early, and some of the stuff might actually be applicable to Greninja's metagame.
 

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,095
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
NNID
INFullMoon
Pretty much all of Greninja's specials bar Water Shuriken are pretty unexplored for the most part, even Hydro Pump.

Substitute, as terrible as it might look on paper, is a surprisingly good move that can turn the tables of a match really easily. I've been wanting to implement it into my game plan more, I just need to get better at reading my opponent so I can use it more succesfully.

Though obviously Substitute is pretty worthless against opponents with very good frame data like Sheik.
 

Zelder

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
477
Location
(location)
An alternative tier list

Characters you need to be prepared for at a tournament, because you're almost guaranteed to fight a few of them
:4falcon::4diddy::4luigi::4mario::4ness::4fox::4pikachu::rosalina::4sheik::4villager: :4sonic::4zss:and probably :4feroy: (people love that dude)

Characters that you need to worry less about
The rest of them

Watch out, Nairo is about to destroy you!
:4zelda:
 
Last edited:

MoveMan1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
308
As long as Sheik has Bouncing Fish KO confirms, she won't struggle to kill.

Think about it this way. You can combo Needles into Bouncing Fish offstage and even onstage depending on Rage and opponent's %. With that in mind, it's not about how difficult it is to land a Bouncing Fish, it's about how difficult it is to land Needles.

Needles.

You know, that invisible, semi-unreactable, riskless, long-range projectile.

Which is also a kill move.

Let that sink in.
...At what percent is needles (by itself) a kill move. I couldn't do it at 300 from the ledge, unless you're talking about edgeguarding.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
As long as Sheik has Bouncing Fish KO confirms, she won't struggle to kill.

Think about it this way. You can combo Needles into Bouncing Fish offstage and even onstage depending on Rage and opponent's %. With that in mind, it's not about how difficult it is to land a Bouncing Fish, it's about how difficult it is to land Needles.

Needles.

You know, that invisible, semi-unreactable, riskless, long-range projectile.

Which is also a kill move.

Let that sink in.
Not to mention you can combo into the needles that combos into kill moves.
 

momochuu

Smash Legend
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
12,868
NNID
Momochuu
3DS FC
2380-3247-9039
The Nair footstool loop only works for one rep, the second footstool can be DI'd so the Dair misses.
you actually can't. if you wait before you do the second footstool they can't DI it. its not that the people in that vid didn't DI, they didn't have the option to.

kinda wish people would randomly stop posting stuff like this. :/
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
Footstool combos aren't creative but Shadow Sneak by itself opens up a lot of possibilities for Greninja if you make creative and smart use of it as a mix-up. Substitute also allows for plenty of shenanigans.

Greninja is very much a mix-up character because once he gets in he has so many options of how to mess you up that he can be very unpredictable unless he's going into auto-pilot.

Of course, playing Greninja takes a lot of effort so why bother when there's Sheik around and people still think Greninja and Sheik play the exact same way?



I can already tell you something Greninja does a lot better than Sheik:

Killing.

It's kind of a big thing.
Killing is probably the least important aspect of a character. If you have legit kill set ups. Then that's important. Raw kill power is virtually meaningless.

@ KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer anyway you can turn that website into an app?
 
Last edited:

Ryu_Ken

Ace Adventurer and Truth Seeker
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
3,281
Location
Texas
NNID
Sorastar9
3DS FC
4725-8061-1333
I'm slowly starting to get the feeling sheik is being overrated... does she have any other weakness other than being a featherweight? Some of her attacks are extremely fast like her Fair, but that doesn't mean they're safe on shield. Even Bowser can punish her Fair and Bouncing Fish, I think. What else... I got nothing. Just throwing my honest 2 cents.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
I feel like I'm missing something! But seriously I can't get to locations (such as where I linked) from the home page/smash 4 section so I don't even know how they got to those sections. I've only been noticing the site recently so idk.

Killing is probably the least important aspect of a character. If you have legit kill set ups. Then that's important. Raw kill power is virtually meaningless.
...kill setups/safety of KO options is obviously what he was talking about.
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
I feel like I'm missing something! But seriously I can't get to locations (such as where I linked) from the home page/smash 4 section so I don't even know how they got to those sections. I've only been noticing the site recently so idk.

...kill setups/safety of KO options is obviously what he was talking about.
yeah I have to make an attributes page, but you can find them all linked on every character page.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
Ok well the website isn't actually janky, I think it's cool! It's just not complete, good to know :p

I was recently noticing, by watching ESAM's recent video vs Phuzix, that Pikachu's Dair can be used as a "combo breaker" of sorts with the landing hitbox. That website's Pikachu section showed me that there's a "landing frame" section for Pikachu's Dair. I've noticed the same "combo breaking" properties on Kirby's Dair. I still don't understand how the heck this works, because Pika/Kirby Dairs are frames 14 and 18, but I've interrupted stuff such as Falcon Jab 2 transition to multijab, so obviously it comes out a lot faster than frame 18. If I understood exactly how moves like this worked, I'd be able to use them more properly. I've never been able to use this "landing hitbox" outside of hitstun, so does it have something to do with getting hit? :confused:


I'm slowly starting to get the feeling sheik is being overrated... does she have any other weakness other than being a featherweight? Some of her attacks are extremely fast like her Fair, but that doesn't mean they're safe on shield. Even Bowser can punish her Fair and Bouncing Fish, I think. What else... I got nothing. Just throwing my honest 2 cents.
low weight + fast falling speed = uptilt combo food/dies early. Pick Kirby!
 
Last edited:

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
I'm slowly starting to get the feeling sheik is being overrated... does she have any other weakness other than being a featherweight? Some of her attacks are extremely fast like her Fair, but that doesn't mean they're safe on shield. Even Bowser can punish her Fair and Bouncing Fish, I think. What else... I got nothing. Just throwing my honest 2 cents.
Let's see, she's not actually the light, but not actually middleweight either. Sheik's slightly heavier than ZSS, Falco, and Little Mac, and the same weight as Zelda - gee, I wonder why? - at 85 units - also, Mewtwo's Melee weight... Actually, considering Zelda's wearing what looks like a heavy dress with metallic ornaments, Zelda should be heavier... Anyway, Sheik's also a fast faller like Diddy - same value of 1.75 -, but her air speed and fast aerials help out in that department of getting comboed.

So, fast falling theoretically should get her comboed, but she has good air speed and fast aerials and Diddy's also a fast faller and with a slowish air speed, but has fast aerials to interrupt combos. Luigi's in the same boat of slow air speed, but fast aerials to stop combos unlike Captain Falcon who is a fast faller with good air speed, but has average speed aerials or Falco who's a fast faller, has bad air speed, and a lightweight with fast aerials that don't cover him well. So, Sheik doesn't really have issues with her attributes...

Basically her weaknesses would be two things: kill moves and skill ceiling. Sheik's strongest kill moves are like sweet-spotted Up Smash, Burst Grenade, Vanish, Side Smash, and Bouncing Fish. Everything else is weak or not that useful in most situations like Dair and Down Smash. No kill throws either. Still, she racks up damage fast, but knowing what moves to use, when to use them, what moves kill, and when to kill with them are what makes Sheik difficult. You can't really flail around with Sheik and hope to kill, especially when the rest have much more kill options than Sheik.
 
Last edited:

Ryu_Ken

Ace Adventurer and Truth Seeker
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
3,281
Location
Texas
NNID
Sorastar9
3DS FC
4725-8061-1333
@ Ffamran Ffamran @ Asdioh Asdioh thanks. I've heard people say how stupid and broken Sheik is, but I see that if you play a good defensive game, she's not too bad to deal with. Just gotta be fast (no pun intended :4sonic: )
 
Last edited:

Blobface

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
1,283
Location
Labbing U-Tilt followups with Ganondorf
NNID
everyone1 (Bob)
3DS FC
3454-0482-6740
I was recently noticing, by watching ESAM's recent video vs Phuzix, that Pikachu's Dair can be used as a "combo breaker" of sorts with the landing hitbox. That website's Pikachu section showed me that there's a "landing frame" section for Pikachu's Dair. I've noticed the same "combo breaking" properties on Kirby's Dair. I still don't understand how the heck this works, because Pika/Kirby Dairs are frames 14 and 18, but I've interrupted stuff such as Falcon Jab 2 transition to multijab, so obviously it comes out a lot faster than frame 18. If I understood exactly how moves like this worked, I'd be able to use them more properly. I've never been able to use this "landing hitbox" outside of hitstun, so does it have something to do with getting hit? :confused:
I believe it's a result of the landing animation having a hitbox. I'm guessing you land on the ground on the exact frame you start the move, causing the move to essentially come out on Frame 1.

@ Ryu_Ken Ryu_Ken
I partially agree. I do think people shouldn't overrate Sheik's overall power, I wouldn't say she invalidates anyone, but I do think she could use some changes (especially needles). But yeah, as mentioned above, patience is key.
 
Last edited:

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
The main issue against Sheik is how safe she is compared to the rest of the cast kind of like how the complaint to Diddy was how much reward he got off with his previously frame 3, kill move Uair, and the complaint also goes to how much reward Luigi gets off of just D-throw. For me, how far and how strong Rosalina's aerials and Luma is would be a complaint. Diddy's been toned down (severely), but not Luigi or Rosalina while some characters are left as is like Sheik and Fox. Captain Falcon just got an Uair tweak which is whatever since it wasn't an insane move, but it was a powerful too for Captain Falcon. What about Link's jab cancel or Fox's? Link's to me is a major and unnecessary nerf while Fox's isn't that bad. It's the strengths between the two where I would advocate for Link's to be nerfed, but not like his. Link's much stronger than Fox, but like Fox, neither of them actually guarantee anything from jab cancel. It's not a 100% thing, but more of a 90% or 80% where there's room for error and room for the opponent to get out. You can get out of either of theirs, but people exploded on Link's. Seriously, folks, WTF? CPUs are for the lack of a better word: morons, and in training mode, they're nothing more than punching bags. Someone will find a way to DI, SDI, or counter it and obviously, an idiot constantly fishing for jab cancels is going to get punished. One Puerto Rican Fox player fished for jab cancels and decided it'd be a great idea to try and infinite a Triple D player who ended up grab resetting the moron after he failed the "infinite". Fox and Link's jab cancels were nowhere near the level of massive rewards Luigi gets from D-throw or Diddy got from pre-patches Uair. Link's could have easily had knockback and hit angle changes with some minor IASA changes and it would have been a strong tool for Link while not being able to pseudo-infinite people.

Anyway, back to the whole complaints thing. There should be buffs and nerfs to all characters. Sheik's safety is a uniqueness to her, but maybe toning it down or making other characters safer, but not as safe as Sheik could work. Luigi getting massive rewards off of D-throw is his schtick, but main lowering damage or increasing knockback could lessen the whole 40% off of one grab that few characters can ever hope for from bad DI. One case in this is Falco who was both nerfed and buffed in a way where nerfs happened to change how he functions and came out as buffs. As of right now, only Uair was radically changed with it losing its early kill potential to being a stronger, faster combo tool. Uair was good, but it's better now. Take some other character like perhaps Zelda who could have massive changes to Ftilt that turns it into a powerful spacing tool and maybe they could make it a projectile nullifier move. This assumes balance patches will happen.

I mean, let's assume that Fox, Ness, Mario, Peach, Rosalina, Yoshi, and Sheik are "perfected" characters who have some things there that could be tweaked like how Captain Falcon got his Uair tweaked, but that means there are other imperfect characters like Ike, Mewtwo, Falco, Zelda, Link, and Samus. There's a possibility they could be altered to be much better and contend better. So there's a group of characters that function well (in any mode and any situation) and then there's a group that functions, but not as well. It's like when you look at Fox in all of the games, he's always done well and never dropped severely like some characters who were heavily affected by the engine or numbers changes that can wreck them. Wolf's another example where only oversights to his design and the game itself held him back. Falco is notable for being a game exploiter as in Melee and Brawl, he succeeded by breaking the system and basically playing dirty and "cheating". Removing that basically exposes Falco to the fraud of a character he is who relied severely on game exploits and broken options. Now, with how players are viewing him and the developers noting that, they can actually give Falco a legitimate play style. Captain Falcon was also heavily affected the game's design, but the fact his game plan does rely on free movement, in Brawl, the chance of tripping does hurt his free movement philosophy. Then you have characters like Zelda who never really succeeded in any (official) game regardless of engine, frame data changes, etc. Those are the characters who can be changed as people note things that could work better for her and finalize her play style.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
Moderator
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,651
Location
Rochester, NY
NNID
Sansoldier
3DS FC
4957-2846-2924
Ok well the website isn't actually janky, I think it's cool! It's just not complete, good to know :p

I was recently noticing, by watching ESAM's recent video vs Phuzix, that Pikachu's Dair can be used as a "combo breaker" of sorts with the landing hitbox. That website's Pikachu section showed me that there's a "landing frame" section for Pikachu's Dair. I've noticed the same "combo breaking" properties on Kirby's Dair. I still don't understand how the heck this works, because Pika/Kirby Dairs are frames 14 and 18, but I've interrupted stuff such as Falcon Jab 2 transition to multijab, so obviously it comes out a lot faster than frame 18. If I understood exactly how moves like this worked, I'd be able to use them more properly. I've never been able to use this "landing hitbox" outside of hitstun, so does it have something to do with getting hit? :confused:


low weight + fast falling speed = uptilt combo food/dies early. Pick Kirby!
Dair landing lag has a hitbox. For Kirby, it starts frame 18. When you land, it takes an extra frame or two for the hitbox to come out. For Mii swordsman, it's after frame 5. For pikachu... after frame 1 LOL.

Only swordfighter's seem to have low enough lag to spam it a lot, though.
 
Last edited:

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
Dair landing lag has a hitbox. For Kirby, it starts frame 18. When you land, it takes an extra frame or two for the hitbox to come out. For Mii swordsman, it's after frame 5. For pikachu... after frame 1 LOL.

Only swordfighter's seem to have low enough lag to spam it a lot, though.
I still don't follow. At around 13:57 here https://youtu.be/avPnr5EIGOo?t=835 Pikachu "interrupts" Sheik's Jabs (it's entirely possible Sheik stopped Jabbing in order to do something else, but the point still stands) with a landing Dair. I'm no expert on frame data, but this seems to clearly come out faster than Frame 14 (Pikachu's Dair startup.) As you said, Kirby's Dair is frame 18, but the same thing in this video often happens to me with Kirby's Dair. It seems like a better combo breaker than his frame 6 Bair. \(o_o)/
 

Kofu

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
The caffeine-free state
NNID
Atoyont
3DS FC
1521-4492-7542
Pretty much this. :4ness::4villager::4yoshi: are some of the viable options that do really well against her because they basically beat her at her own game with aerials options that are faster, have more priority, and better range, not to mention projectiles that can keep her at a distance and force her to approach.
I think Villager vs. Puff is weird because she actually kind of does beat, or at least match him horizontally in the air because slingshots die to her myriad sex kicks. He cleanly beats her with vertical attacks, however. In default Villager is probably one of the easier characters to gimp because of the slow pace and lack of hitbox on his recovery. Customs help a lot here, however.

I just think that Jigglypuff's game plan is fundamentally flawed. Her best strategy against most of the cast is camping in the air, much like Wario. Unfortunately that means she has to get a lead on her opponent first which is very difficult against some characters. Her multiple jumps help a little, but they are finite, and it's very possible with a little focus to count how many she has left and guess what her next move will be.

When approaching from the air her options against shields are limited. Pound is nice, but it has noticeable startup and is a commitment if whiffed. It's not like the amazing tool Wario has in Chomp to ignore shields. She struggles against characters with good OoS options, which unfortunately for her include USmashes, many of which in this game give the user partial body invincibility to help counter aerial approaches.

As good as her horizontal mobility is in the air, her vertical speed is almost as bad. Her jumps are short, meaning she can't quickly follow opponents high into the air, and her fall speed being as slow as it is means that a lot of characters can fast fall to throw off her timing. She can chase people horizontally well, but what does she do when characters quickly jump up to high platforms?

Her ground game is limited but has a couple of really good moves (jab, dash attack) and a handful of usable but not always productive ones (grab, DTilt, UTilt). The problem is her ground speed is so bad that most of these moves can't approach safely. There's some definitely redundancy in her ground attacks (is FTilt ever usable?) And it feels a little the same with a bit of her air game (FAir vs. NAir, though I can see the occasional advantages in FAir's shorter duration).

Pound and Rest are two very good moves. When Thinkaman posted his "why I don't like Jigglypuff in Smash 4 but liked her in Brawl" the focal point was Pound not carrying momentum as well. I didn't understand what he meant at the time but I do now. Pound isn't as much of a threat because she just kind of stays in place (comparatively). It doesn't beat out other moves like it should. The extra shield damage it does is pretty critical, however. Rest kind of highlights Jigglypuff's need to stay close to the foe. That said, it is a powerful (if risky) move thanks to its incredible speed and can be used to punish poor spacing or attempted counterattacks. Sing and Rollout are both bad, but Sing at least ledge cancels and I could see Rollout customs being handy for her.

This kind of went off from what I wanted, but I guess she just feels lacking to me. Tagging @TheReflexWonder because he's the only person I know that plays her on a high level and I feel he can shed more light on her abilities.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
Moderator
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,651
Location
Rochester, NY
NNID
Sansoldier
3DS FC
4957-2846-2924
I still don't follow. At around 13:57 here https://youtu.be/avPnr5EIGOo?t=835 Pikachu "interrupts" Sheik's Jabs (it's entirely possible Sheik stopped Jabbing in order to do something else, but the point still stands) with a landing Dair. I'm no expert on frame data, but this seems to clearly come out faster than Frame 14 (Pikachu's Dair startup.) As you said, Kirby's Dair is frame 18, but the same thing in this video often happens to me with Kirby's Dair. It seems like a better combo breaker than his frame 6 Bair. \(o_o)/
Every aerial has an autocancel window and landing lag. For those dairs, there is a hitbox at the beginning of what is supposed to be that move's landing lag. The hitbox comes out around 1-2 frames after the landing depending on the attack. This has nothing to do with what the dair hitbox is supposed to actually do in the air.

Kirby's dair has an autocancel period until 18 frames after dair is inputted. After that, he incurs dair's landing lag with the hitbox when he reaches the ground. Before that, nothing happens since the move autocancelled.

For Pikachu, that's 1 frame after he starts the dair, so pikachu only needs to press the input before landing. When Pikachu's dair actually comes out in the air doesn't matter.
 
Last edited:

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
@ Ffamran Ffamran Keitaro is fighting Shippo with Falco, and he's using the explosive blaster that pulls people in. He's using it in a very interesting way where he uses it to block the ledge, and he even got a kill with it! Thoughts?
Kind of like Sheik's Gravity Grenade except without the risk of SDing off stage. Sheik can confirm a sweet-spotted Up Smash with Gravity Grenade while Falco looks like he can confirm grab - remember that customs combo video? -, Side Smash, Up Smash, and maybe more like a RAR Bair if the player can pull it off. The issue? Falco only has one projectile while Sheik has too and Sheik has one good projectile and a strong situational one. Falco's already has a limited set and it's going to be a commitment to whatever he chooses. So, edgeguarding and setting up kills with Explosive Blaster, tacking on damage with Burst Blaster, and interrupting and gimping with default Blaster. People really need to mess with Falco's customs more.

No offense to Shippo, but I think he could have definitely walled out Falco and wrecked Keitaro who had Reflector Void on and Needles would be difficult to reflect with a frame 13 move. Keitaro would have had to read every Needle Shippo threw which mean Shippo could have easily camped out Keitaro's Falco. Once again, it's a case of Sheik's weaknesses where you have to understand her, the game, and the opponent and approaching recklessly like that, especially against a character whose entire moveset is a kill option isn't a good idea. There wasn't much of a reason for Shippo to approach.
 

TriTails

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
1,720
Location
Looking at your face
Luigi getting massive rewards off of D-throw is his schtick, but main lowering damage or increasing knockback could lessen the whole 40% off of one grab that few characters can ever hope for from bad DI.
So you want to take away the only thing that made me scary without giving something in return to compensate for my bottom 5 mobility? Okay.

I notice you wrote, 'buffs and nerfs'. Nerfing Luigi's damage takes away one of his huge advantages (He trades better and hits harder than other middleweights), and increasing his knockback as a 'buff' ain't gonna do a thing to compensate that. If we want to decrease Luigi's damage output we need to make him faster, instead of the worst aerial mobility he currently has.
 
Last edited:

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
So you want to take away the only thing that made me scary without giving something in return to compensate for my bottom 5 mobility? Okay.
Luigi runs faster than Falco, Luigi can crawl, Luigi's floatiness helps him while Falco gets comboed to hell and back by being a fast faller and having slow air speed, Luigi has a usable projectile, and Luigi has kill confirms off of D-throw. If Luigi only did at max, 30% out of D-throw, that would be okay, but being able to do 40% at times is pushing it when few characters can hope for that.
 

Spinosaurus

Treasure Hunter
Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
3,655
NNID
WarioLand
Nerfing Luigi's throw game would straight up ruin him. Best thing to do is give him slightly more lag if he misses the grab.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Those are equivalent propositions. It's about the overall risk:reward ratio of the character, not either risk alone or reward alone.

Luigi's risk:reward ratio is very low, as in, he doesn't take many risks to get off huge reward.

If you lowered his reward (reduced damage from grab combos), his risk:reward ratio would rise.
If you raised his risk (made his dashgrab laggier), his risk:reward ratio would rise.

Same effect regardless of which change you implement--the only differences come from the degree of the nerf, not from the substance of it.
 
Last edited:

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
The Pocket Dimension
NNID
Crimson-Vulcan
3DS FC
1822-3761-9326
What I need to say, which will be hilarious but true:
When you fight a regular Little Mac player, you will win.
When you see my Little Mac, prepare to bring a paper bag. You're going to need it.

Nerfing Luigi's throw game would straight up ruin him. Best thing to do is give him slightly more lag if he misses the grab.
No, rather, it'd be to give him more horizontal trajectory on D-Throw or make it go backward, thus making him have to rely on B-Air or Dash to utilize his grab. The latter wouldn't ruin him, it'd probably be good, but nerfed enough to the point of where he's more balanced. Though I think Ness needs more lag if he misses the grab, more than Luigi.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
IMO the best way to change Luigi is to give him a 10 frame Dashgrab to reduce how polarizing his Fireball -> grab trap is and give him back some of his old Jab cancel combo game (which has more counterplay but also simultaneously more flexibility).
 

TriTails

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
1,720
Location
Looking at your face
Luigi runs faster than Falco, Luigi can crawl, Luigi's floatiness helps him while Falco gets comboed to hell and back by being a fast faller and having slow air speed, Luigi has a usable projectile, and Luigi has kill confirms off of D-throw. If Luigi only did at max, 30% out of D-throw, that would be okay, but being able to do 40% at times is pushing it when few characters can hope for that.
Look. My character is the perfect juggling basketball because he literally has zero move that hits downward. Combine that with his 2nd slowest airspeed AND floatiness.

Luigi runs barely faster than Falco (The difference is almost negligible). He can crawl, so what? Ain't gonna do a squat other than Fox MU. His floatiness isn't going to help him because he gets juggled hella back. Oh, and also, Falco has better mobility because aerial specs + Phantasm.

Luigi struggles to get in on possibly half of his MUs (Or at least, annoying). If he doesn't have the whole 'I get lotsa damage when I get in', then he'd be just a worse Mario clone.

Comparing him to Falco is, tbh and imo, silly. Both characters play very differently.

Oh, what's that? You want to nerf his damage output? Then give me this medicine that boost my mobility to compensate for that. Hell, if you nerf his damage output it'd straight up ruins his entire combos because he relies on hitstun, which is determined by damage.

After all, other than his combos, what else he has? Fastest attack speed and good damage output? Combined by his bottom 5 mobility? No. I ain't gonna punching a thing with that.
 

Zelder

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
477
Location
(location)
What I need to say, which will be hilarious but true:
When you fight a regular Little Mac player, you will win.
When you see my Little Mac, prepare to bring a paper bag. You're going to need it.
...because your Little Mac induces vomiting? I don't think I've heard this phrase.

Look. My character is the perfect juggling basketball because he literally has zero move that hits downward. Combine that with his 2nd slowest airspeed AND floatiness.

Luigi runs barely faster than Falco (The difference is almost negligible). He can crawl, so what? Ain't gonna do a squat other than Fox MU. His floatiness isn't going to help him because he gets juggled hella back. Oh, and also, Falco has better mobility because aerial specs + Phantasm.

Luigi struggles to get in on possibly half of his MUs (Or at least, annoying). If he doesn't have the whole 'I get lotsa damage when I get in', then he'd be just a worse Mario clone.

Comparing him to Falco is, tbh and imo, silly. Both characters play very differently.

Oh, what's that? You want to nerf his damage output? Then give me this medicine that boost my mobility to compensate for that. Hell, if you nerf his damage output it'd straight up ruins his entire combos because he relies on hitstun, which is determined by damage.

After all, other than his combos, what else he has? Fastest attack speed and good damage output? Combined by his bottom 5 mobility? No. I ain't gonna punching a thing with that.
I feel like you're too emotionally invested in your character to have a good discussion about Luigi.
 
Last edited:

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Actually, I would just keep Luigi's grab reward and mobility the same but give him a tether grab with the Poltergust 3000.
 

ILOVESMASH

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
590
NNID
Marioman123450
3DS FC
3368-1022-7382
The only thing about :4luigi: that needs to be nerfed are his fireballs. This move is pretty ridiculous since it has almost no endlag and sets up into a large number of things such as grab.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom