Character Competitive Impressions

[mountain_tiger]

Anytime people talk about Dedede they're like "he's bad guys"
But I think they SERIOUSLY underestimate how amazing it is to be the third heaviest character, while also having one of the best recoveries ever. He lives so ****ing long/kills so early it's just not fun to fight him. I have to work twice as hard/make twice as many reads if I want to win.

His recovery is actually one of the easier ones to gimp IMO. He often ends up relying on his up B simply because his air speed is so poor, and unless you grab the ledge on the ascent... yeah.

He lives a long time, for sure, but there are a lot of characters who he struggles to land any hits on at all. His grab game is still good, but it's not always enough to deal with the pressure many characters can put on him.

 

[Lenus Altair]

There were two points you weren't getting
Dedede being reactive vs being forced to shield.

Gordo has nothing to do with either of those things. Pit doesn't really force D3 to shield at all, and Pit's kill issues are pretty massive, if Pit didn't have as strong as a grab game as he does or the lopsided nature of the match up if D3 is forced to approach/is at stock deficit I'd almost consider it hard counter, lol. Pit's juggling prowess requires D3 to mess up, otherwise.

Sorry, I'm just waking up so my mind is a tad cloudy, but I'm not sure who you're saying the match up favors, if there is a clear winner.

I will say though that the more I play Pit, the more I see his kill issues as slightly exaggerated. I mean, they are average at best if sub par overall, but Fsmash kills fairly eaarly on a read, his upsmash isnt terribly far behind, his gimping potential is obvious,
and once a (middleweight) opponent hits about 140% his upperdash is a killer as well as fthrow(more so toward a ledge of course). Sure, 140 isn't stellar, but for a throw on a character that damages racks and plays the nuetral so well, I tend to kill with that more then most of his other moves these days.

 

[EgeDal]

I was thinking that Marth probably has a good matchup against Dedede, just because the killing power of the tippers are so overwhelming.

Marth vs Dedede is lame.
But I haven't played it enough to have a solid opinion.

Marth has advantage over Dedede

 

[Chuva]

Marth has advantage over Dedede

That's really vague. Care to elaborate?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

regarding the whole. yoshi thing.

i wont claim to know his placement on the tier list so i wont bother.
but what i can say is that yoshi is probably the most honest character to be considered top tier.
as in honest. he just does not seem to have any strong mix ups or gimmicks to his play style. plus no kill throw.

i just cant help but think once people start figuring out his general options durring certain situations he will probably drop from being "op" in peoples mind when he clearly is not. if anything yoshi follows the same guidlines as falco. where he wants to keep the presssure on the opponent and ether make a good read or punish a forced action.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yoshi is hilariously OP in this game. He can ceaselessly surround himself with unpunishable, low-risk high-reward hitboxes and has literally no weaknesses whatsoever. He's pretty small but also quite heavy with fantastic mobility, over-average range, insane damage output and powerful KO moves that are easy to link into from safe moves like jab or egg toss.

He can ceaselessly surround himself with unpunishable, low-risk high-reward hitboxes and has literally no weaknesses whatsoever.

no weaknesses whatsoever

Hey guys what is Smash Bros

 

[NairWizard]

More accurately, land a killing move. Where as diddy can just get a grab and insta Uair anyone.

Jab links to up-smash if I am not mistaken. This means that Yoshi has an easy time getting a kill on anyone who has to fight Yoshi at close range (as in, anyone that doesn't like to camp out eggs, which is a lot of characters). Once you get someone into CQC range you can quickly jab to up-smash.

As Yoshi against some combo-heavy characters, you can just throw out blind d-smashes and f-smashes too, because he's so good at covering his landings. Down-b, d-air, and n-air mean that you're going to have a very hard time juggling Yoshi. Disadvantage is usually Yoshi's best state (except if he's offstage against certain characters).

Yoshi has a harder time killing people who don't care as much about eggs and also have a lot of kill power themselves (which makes Yoshi's blind smash-reading a little riskier). Which is...basically no one, since everyone in the game falls into one of the two categories. Maybe Lucario, because he doesn't really care about taking long-range damage and he does kill really early.

 

[Locke 06]

Jab links to up-smash if I am not mistaken. This means that Yoshi has an easy time getting a kill on anyone who has to fight Yoshi at close range (as in, anyone that doesn't like to camp out eggs, which is a lot of characters). Once you get someone into CQC range you can quickly jab to up-smash.

As Yoshi against some combo-heavy characters, you can just throw out blind d-smashes and f-smashes too, because he's so good at covering his landings. Down-b, d-air, and n-air mean that you're going to have a very hard time juggling Yoshi. Disadvantage is usually Yoshi's best state (except if he's offstage against certain characters).

Yoshi has a harder time killing people who don't care as much about eggs and also have a lot of kill power themselves (which makes Yoshi's blind smash-reading a little riskier). Which is...basically no one, since everyone in the game falls into one of the two categories. Maybe Lucario, because he doesn't really care about taking long-range damage and he does kill really early.

Jab>usmash is DI/positionally dependent much like Luigi's jab>up-B. That's what I've been told by those who main them in addition to escaping it a couple of times as a victim (although I have no experience actually using it myself). It's solid and worth mentioning, but it's not as easy/reliable as say Link's jab>up-B.

Also, plugging in because he falls into that category of "I don't care about eggs/will out space you if you try to camp" and "I will punish you hard if you whiff."

Edit: I guess Robin too? I don't have a ton of experience with that character.

 

[rd1023]

Why is Robin considered to be so good in this game, I really can't use him, I thought he was terrible but maybe its just me.

 

[Yonder]

The luigi bandwagon has commenced

Yes. I've gone from versing 1 in 2 months....to 4 in one week online.

In reality though he never will. He requires a lot of work to master his wonky movement which turns people away. They would rather play brain dead Yoshi, Falcon (top of high tier) Sheik, etc.

Is there any top tiers requiring a brain sans Rosa and maybe Diddy?

 

[meleebrawler]

BTW, kinda late here but...

Puff can pretty much do whatever she wants to reflect gordos. Nair, Fair, Jab, FTilt... maybe even dair if you feel like it lol

I don't think Gordos are all that good because they're so easy to reflect, which at short range, endangers DDD, maybe midrange as well, and at mid/long range it just nullifies the gordos. DDD isn't fast enough to punish the reflect, in my experience.

I have had some fun kills with the Gordo Hammer tho when I've played DDD.

This is why Dedede should almost always make it bounce in place when
he uses it, so that the opponent doesn't expect direct shots
and to cow rushdown.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Why is Robin considered to be so good in this game, I really can't use him, I thought he was terrible but maybe its just me.

look up any match that includes nairo and perhaps u will understand.

 

[Jabejazz]

I know I'm late but

Damage input is on par with Ganon, but he has a formidable projectile this game (possibly the best) to get in. Throw strings are amazing and can be used to follow up with more stuff. He can gimp a lot of characters with bluffs due to his nature and Gordo.

He is underestimated but only because not many people are giving a closer look to him.

I personally see him on the lower end of the cast. Maybe lower-mid/upper-low ish.


As most already put it, he's a polarized character. I believe he has great MUs against most heavyweights (probably somewhat close against Charizard and probably DK with customs on BF, but otherwise fairly doable and favorable). He also does extremely well against characters will poor kill options. Basically, any MU where he's not rushed by his opponent to act, and instead react, he can pull it off reasonably well. The more I play against Sonics, the more I feel it's not as completely horrendous as I first thought it was. Still not a walk in the park by any stretch of the imagination, but definitely not as one-sided. Character bias pls.

He gets however camped pretty hard, and his fast fall speed, large frame, heavy weight and removal of Vectoring makes him combo video sandbag worthy.

His Gordos are just as polarized as he is; it's fairly hard to deal with Gordos when they get reflected at you, but if your opponent shields them or eats them it's tremendous positional advantage. The latter doesn't really happen often, but there's definitely an extra layer of complexity with Gordo Throw on stages with slopes and walls to effectively mix-up your approach with them. Inconsistency on Gordos is the piece of the puzzle D3 players need to figure out to make the most out of this arguably iffy move.

His grab strings are decent, until rage kicks in and there's no more follow-ups possible with anything. The fact a character that is so centralized on his grab game at any stage in the game doesn't have a kill throw is perplexing. Fresh BThrows kills Sonic at 140%ish from the ledge. It's absurd. Hell, they even went a notch further and nerfed our throw game. Somewhere, in Japan, some TripleD player was bodying everyone with some secret broken grab tech. Has to be, if they decided to nerf us.

His edgeguarding game is above average, probably among the best 5 in the game. He gets edgeguarded somewhat easily by a key few, but otherwise, you can generally recover from so low nobody can reach you and safely get the ledge.

Top 8 is pretty ludicrous. He's a counter pick character for the time being. Luckily for him, I'm somewhat masochistic when it comes to picking characters, so I'm fine with having some rough (read : terrible) matchups.

Also, does his UAir beat like every DAir?

As a general rule, you don't want to be above your opponent. This is even more true against Dedede.
The move beats goddamned Wizard's Foot, every divekick dair gets punished into a stock, counters will protect against the first hit and the rest of the multi-hit will proceed to completely wreck your attempts at protecting your landing.

Seriously, don't even try to challenge this move.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin's really good at shield and stage pressure, can fight you in the air with Levin Fair, and if you get caught in Arcthunder or Arcfire at 100%, you're dying to Levin Uair. And all running out of a tome or sword does is give Robin either a get-out-of-jail-free item to escape strings and reset to neutral, or a KOing item to play item games with, at the cost of 11 seconds downtime at the most. If you give him an inch, he will take the mile.

But if you don't give him that inch he needs or he can't take that inch for himself? Oh lawd.

As far as eggs go, Yoshi can throw the Egg faster and over Arcfire's arc and snipe Robin, and Thunder fares no better. It's not pretty.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Robin's really good at shield and stage pressure, can fight you in the air with Levin Fair, and if you get caught in Arcthunder or Arcfire at 100%, you're dying to Levin Uair. And all running out of a tome or sword does is give Robin either a get-out-of-jail-free item to escape strings and reset to neutral, or a KOing item to play item games with, at the cost of 11 seconds downtime at the most. If you give him an inch, he will take the mile.

But if you don't give him that inch he needs or he can't take that inch for himself? Oh lawd.

As far as eggs go, Yoshi can throw the Egg faster and over Arcfire's arc and snipe Robin, and Thunder fares no better. It's not pretty.

thats only under the assumption that robin will be playing the ranged game. at mid range lobbing the yoshi egg is considerablly harder and much more risky.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes. I've gone from versing 1 in 2 months....to 4 in one week online.

In reality though he never will. He requires a lot of work to master his wonky movement which turns people away. They would rather play brain dead Yoshi, Falcon (top of high tier) Sheik, etc.

Is there any top tiers requiring a brain sans Rosa and maybe Diddy?

I don't think Falcon or Yoshi are braindead at all for starters, Falcon less so thanks to DI changes. The only one I think is way too simple is Diddy and even then, meh.

Luigi's far from braindead either but his D-Throw is without a question one of the easiest throws to follow up from period.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't think Falcon or Yoshi are braindead at all for starters, Falcon less so thanks to DI changes. The only one I think is way too simple is Diddy and even then, meh.

Luigi's far from braindead either but his D-Throw is without a question one of the easiest throws to follow up from period.

nobody is really a brain dead character dispite me still callin diddy braindead. objectivly speaking luigi is hard to use effectivly.

also for u TTTTTsd cheak out astros doc mario. it will make u happy.

 

[TTTTTsd]

nobody is really a brain dead character dispite me still callin diddy braindead. objectivly speaking luigi is hard to use effectivly.

also for u TTTTTsd cheak out astros doc mario. it will make u happy.

I uh, dunno where to find anything on him. A link would be cool, sorry . I do appreciate the recommendation.

 

[NairWizard]

"braindead" is a braindead term. You can't win against opponents who are playing competently without using smart strategies and mixups

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I uh, dunno where to find anything on him. A link would be cool, sorry . I do appreciate the recommendation.

hrrmm i just seen him on stream today i cant really link it i thought perhaps there might be a video on youtube or somthing. i guess we will just have to wait till emg put the the stream up on there twitch page later.

 

[Locke 06]

"braindead" is a braindead term. You can't win against opponents who are playing competently without using smart strategies and mixups

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjZVP9-ruOg 2nd and 3rd match.

No disrespect to M2K, you got the win, but he did 1 thing and 1 thing only in that match.

 

[NairWizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjZVP9-ruOg 2nd and 3rd match.

No disrespect to M2K, you got the win, but he did 1 thing and 1 thing only in that match.

This is only braindead in the sense that the animation is the same every time that Diddy lands a grab. m2k isn't just running up and grabbing every second. At times he's blocking, or not grabbing, or rolling back, or pulling a banana. He does get most of his damage from d-throw to up-air/f-air, but there are mixups that even go into that. If it had been a lower-level (say, non-tournament) Diddy vs. Zucco, do you still think that he would have won?

Not going to make the obvious other half of the argument here (that you can and should play around the shield -> grab so that Diddy has to do other things) since Zucco is a good player and I don't want to disrespect him.

edit: I will also add that this is boring to watch, for sure.

 

[Meru.]

Funny enough more than half the older Yoshi's think he isn't even top 8.

More accurately, land a killing move. Where as diddy can just get a grab and insta Uair anyone.

That's because Diddy is ****ing crazy, but that tells more about Diddy than it tells about Yoshi. Yoshi really doesn't have more trouble killing or landing a killing move than the rest of the cast. If anything, he is above average in that regard.

If these are really his only weaknesses (I don't think his recovery is that bad either) then it kind of proves Gheb's point that this asshole doesn't have anyway weaknesses at all ._.

 

[Delta-cod]

As Yoshi against some combo-heavy characters, you can just throw out blind d-smashes and f-smashes too, because he's so good at covering his landings. Down-b, d-air, and n-air mean that you're going to have a very hard time juggling Yoshi. Disadvantage is usually Yoshi's best state (except if he's offstage against certain characters).

(Bold is mine)

I... don't think I quite understand this. Like, it just doesn't make sense, and it seems to just be people not properly keeping their advantaged state. If Yoshi is disadvantaged, people should learn how to keep him there. There's no way he's in his best state while being in a bad state.

 

[NairWizard]

(Bold is mine)

I... don't think I quite understand this. Like, it just doesn't make sense, and it seems to just be people not properly keeping their advantaged state. If Yoshi is disadvantaged, people should learn how to keep him there. There's no way he's in his best state while being in a bad state.

My fault for being vague here (in the interest of brevity).

This isn't saying that Yoshi in disadvantage > Yoshi in advantage. This is saying that Yoshi in disadvantage > other characters in disadvantage. Yoshi's disadvantaged state is good relative to others' disadvantaged states. His neutral is less good relative to others', and his advantage his pretty good relative to others' advantage (faces stiff competition from the likes of Diddy here).

Obviously, no character wants to be in disadvantage, but Yoshi minds it less than most (except maybe Zelda or Pikachu, who can just get out of it with up-b) because he has some pretty good options there, with both a great n-air and an aerial command grab.

 

[Ultimastrike]

Has there been any talk about Wario here? I'm a bit curious as to what people are thinking about Wario aside from his nerf. I've never really seen any usage of him, but I thought I'd bring it up here and see if there are any advantages he can get. He at least got his Grab Release removed, but his weakness is still disjoints.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ultimastrike , there were talks about Wario, but they're like... 10-50 pages back. I think the consensus is that Wario's good and his bike is a monster. Other details would require others to input.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth doesnt beat Dedede.

It's even imo. As are most of his match-ups.

Nothing special here.

 

[chipndip]

regarding the whole. yoshi thing.

i wont claim to know his placement on the tier list so i wont bother.
but what i can say is that yoshi is probably the most honest character to be considered top tier.
as in honest. he just does not seem to have any strong mix ups or gimmicks to his play style. plus no kill throw.

i just cant help but think once people start figuring out his general options durring certain situations he will probably drop from being "op" in peoples mind when he clearly is not. if anything yoshi follows the same guidlines as falco. where he wants to keep the presssure on the opponent and ether make a good read or punish a forced action.

This, but better than Falco.

Yoshi's main weakness as a "top tier" is that he has to force people where he wants them. He's not like Diddy or Sheik who can just throw out whatever wherever. If he misses, he's moderately vulnerable for almost any move in his kit + none of his moves are overly tricky. They're GOOD moves in a vanilla, textbook sort of way, but none of them are very tricky or force you into guessing games or anything like that. If you can't keep your opponent where you need them to be, you're gonna get gradually worn down.

Stop thinking anything you do on wifi as even remotely telling of how a match up goes unless you have a METRIC TONNE of tournament/live experience to allow you the perspective of differentiating what's real vs what's working because of lag (something hard enough that it's not possible for someone to not make the mistake, no matter how good/experienced they are; Wifi is a poison which the only antidote is never touching it ever again [for anything other than seriouslies with people who have offline experience and only for practise, not for understanding/learning]).

I would disagree with this notion a bit.

Now the BEST players will probably never play like online players, but people are people, and as much as there's "the best D3", there's also "the average D3", which you can't get a grasp of without matches against a large pool of people. Overall experience and knowledge comes from fighting pros and scrubs alike.

 

[Delta-cod]

My fault for being vague here (in the interest of brevity).

This isn't saying that Yoshi in disadvantage > Yoshi in advantage. This is saying that Yoshi in disadvantage > other characters in disadvantage. Yoshi's disadvantaged state is good relative to others' disadvantaged states. His neutral is less good relative to others', and his advantage his pretty good relative to others' advantage (faces stiff competition from the likes of Diddy here).

Obviously, no character wants to be in disadvantage, but Yoshi minds it less than most (except maybe Zelda or Pikachu, who can just get out of it with up-b) because he has some pretty good options there, with both a great n-air and an aerial command grab.

Ah, that makes more sense. I lack the experience to know if I truly agree just yet, but I do appreciate the clarification. Thanks!

 

[Z'zgashi]

he just does not seem to have any strong mix ups or gimmicks to his play style

wat

Yoshi is literally all mix ups and gimmicks lol. Well maybe not gimmicks anymore since most of his stuff is actually good now, but Yoshi is practically 100% landing and shield pressure mixups lol.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

my last post for the morining.

ima just say that rosalina really REALLY hates strong ranged pressure.( without customs of course) contrary to popular belief luma does not invalidate them. in all honesty luma is what makes them problematic. at first i thought it was just a megaman thing. but then on the emg stream an upset almost occured by a random nobody using samus and taking cutting it really close to a loss. why? missiles explosion halts approack when it hits luma as well and rosalinas down b is just so risky. at mid range that samus and punish with adash attack and start her combo string.
I just dont think rosalina has a solid answer to heavy projectile users. (so ima guess mii gunner as well)

also people really underestimating samus too. missles really cover her approach and are decently spammable. and a reliable kill projectile is just as threating as a kill throw in my opinion. expecially if u just keep it on you and not get trigger happy. charge shot is really good.
she has good combo game. good range, and good kill potential on air and on ground.
why is she low tier?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Because shes slow, has tons of cooldown on her grab, her projectiles arent hard to get around, and her melee range options are pretty bad.

/plays Samus

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Because shes slow, has tons of cooldown on her grab, her projectiles arent hard to get around, and her melee range options are pretty bad.

/plays Samus

okay i lied about last post just because u replied so fast.

but people were saying this about megaman too.
look at how often hes used now.

undeveloped meta is undeveloped.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Except Mega Man isnt slow, Mega Man has a good grab, and Mega Man's projectiles ARE actually hard to get around.

 

[Kofu]

I agree with Z'zgashi here. Mega Man's Metal Blade and pellets are better at setting things up than any combination of projectiles Samus can use. Mega Man has a far better grab game than Samus, too, because he has a normal grab and his grab sets more things up for him. As far as Mega Man goes, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up high tier at some point with his trapping options. Samus... not so much.

Charge Shot is amazing, though (Mega Man wishes he could store his FSmash and use it in the air) and her customs probably help her set up more traps. Her biggest problem is that some of her moves are inconsistent (USmash, FAir, UAir) and her set in general just doesn't flow. Her tilts have good range, though, and she can chase people down pretty hard once she gets in.

Even though I just did it, it's probably not fair to compare Mega Man and Samus; they play very differently. They're only comparable because they're both zoners.

 

[Morbi]

I agree with Z'zgashi here. Mega Man's Metal Blade and pellets are better at setting things up than any combination of projectiles Samus can use. Mega Man has a far better grab game than Samus, too, because he has a normal grab and his grab sets more things up for him. As far as Mega Man goes, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up high tier at some point with his trapping options. Samus... not so much.

Charge Shot is amazing, though (Mega Man wishes he could store his FSmash and use it in the air) and her customs probably help her set up more traps. Her biggest problem is that some of her moves are inconsistent (USmash, FAir, UAir) and her set in general just doesn't flow. Her tilts have good range, though, and she can chase people down pretty hard once she gets in.

Even though I just did it, it's probably not fair to compare Mega Man and Samus; they play very differently. They're only comparable because they're both zoners.

I am confused, would you or would you not be surprised to see Samus end of in high tier? Other than that, they are also comparable because they have arm-cannons and whatnot.

That being said, I agree. I do not really see Samus' potential as of current whereas Mega Man's is more overt. He is the better zoner, plain and simple.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What do you guys think about R.O.B. dittos?

 

[Xeiros]

I am confused, would you or would you not be surprised to see Samus end of in high tier?

As far as Mega Man goes, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up high tier at some point with his trapping options. Samus... not so much.

The only character he thought might end up in high tier between the two is Mega Man. How in the world did you miss that?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

The only character he thought might end up in high tier between the two is Mega Man. How in the world did you miss that?

Maybe read the whole post?

That being said, I agree. I do not really see Samus' potential as of current whereas Mega Man's is more overt. He is the better zoner, plain and simple.

He said he agrees. How in the world did you miss that?