Character Competitive Impressions

[rabbit.soaring]

Yeah it's really early and this game is more balanced than other Smash games, so it's difficult to use prior smash game experience to exactly place characters.


Pretty good bets... I'm a gambling man and may take them at some point LOL




Sure.

Bowser Jr:
Mainly going from what I've seen some players do with the character. (Mainly, Ninjalink and Dekillsage). He really highlights how well Jr can KO when he saves aerials for KOs. Jr's recovery isn't very gimp-able and has good survivability which are amazing character traits to have in Smash games. He gets a average zoning game which makes up for his lack of easy ways in on characters. He's very similar to Diddy in the regard that he uses his projectiles to move his opponent in a certain ways and highlight his moves. As for weaknesses, Jr doesn't like characters with a good pressure game nor does he like characters that kill him before he does.

WFT: An all-around average character in every regard. I simply believe she has a stronger neutral game and can KO better than the characters below her.

Falcon: He has amazing KO power and good buttons but in the long run I don't see him above the characters that are above him in my list. Kirby is underrated, while he's worse than he was in Brawl he still has the same neutral game and moves. They're range is worse and he lost his grab combos, but he can still play his game and his nerfs from Brawl didn't change that.

Pikachu: He has an amazing edge-guard game but that's his only way to gain KOs. His lack of range has always been the thorn in his side, he'll have worse match ups then the characters above him and he'll have to work a lot harder to finish a game. His damage output is good but not good enough to rely on it to consistently keep leads in case the game leads to a timeout.

G&W: Same thing as Kirby, worse than brawl but his neutral game hasn't changed and it's still a solid neutral game in the meta.



I'll be heading out for now, I'll read up and respond to more post later tonight.

Jr's recovery actually really gimpable. Hammer doesn't cover him all that well, and Abandon Ship doesn't reset immediately on hit, so, yeah. I still say Falcon>Kirby. Kirby really doesn't like fatties, being third lightest in the game is a problem, and sealing a stock on heavies is hard for him. Kirby's horrible range does hinder him in a lot of matchups, and because he's very slow in both the air and on the ground, projectile camping is also a serious issue for him. Kirby wasn't that great in Brawl to begin with. Falcon has a much easier time getting past projectile spam, racks damage well with his incredible Dthrow, and has more kill power, as you mentioned.

@ B0NK

Overall seems pretty good to me. However there is no way Lucina should be right next to Marth on the tier list. She lacks any way to kill at reasonable percents, making her significantly worse than Marth. Also Robin would probably be more like E or F tier.

I agree Lucina shouldn't be next to Marth, but isn't the whole point of Lucina having a consistent sword to kill at reasonable percents?

 

[NairWizard]

Pretty good bets... I'm a gambling man and may take them at some point LOL


Pikachu: He has an amazing edge-guard game but that's his only way to gain KOs. His lack of range has always been the thorn in his side, he'll have worse match ups then the characters above him and he'll have to work a lot harder to finish a game. His damage output is good but not good enough to rely on it to consistently keep leads in case the game leads to a timeout.

Now, we had a good few pages of discussion on Pikachu earlier in the thread, so I won't repeat what I said there (in particular, Pikachu's advantages), but I'll address these as they look like misconceptions.

1) Edgeguarding is his only way to kill

While his edgeguarding is pretty strong, up-smash still kills super early, f-smash is disjointed and pivot f-smash is extremely safe to throw out, f-air into or up-b behind someone can confirm a kill, and dash attack can kill at higher percents. Pikachu doesn't have many problems killing if you are aggressive.

2) His lack of range

He has about the same range as Diddy (compare their d-tilts), and many of his attacks are disjointed, such as f-air and up-air. I have had some trouble with sword characters like Link and Pit, that much is true, but I don't think that he loses these matchups (and if he does, not by that much), because these characters aren't generally that good this time around (Shulk is probably the scariest, and he's also the easiest to juggle/edgeguard because of his slow air options). They have a one-dimensional advantage on him: disjoint, which allows them to win neutral and also to hit Pikachu away when he tries to edgeguard them. On counterbalance, they're slower, taller, and have a tough time resetting to neutral once Pikachu gets in advantage.

3) Damage output means he can't keep leads

Games with Pikachu shouldn't be going to time out, first of all, because other than Tjolt's being an S Tier projectile, Pikachu wants to go in against almost everyone. But second, if they do go to timeout, then Pikachu is likely to win because he's very light. When timeouts occur, the lighter character will almost always win the % battle just by virtue of being lighter and thus dying at lower percents. (of course, you could say that this means that he dies earlier, which is true, but that doesn't matter if the game comes to timeout anyway, since he's not losing his last stock in that case). Also, one of Pikachu's best ways to build up damage is through his edgeguarding, which, as you said, is pretty strong.


Typically Pikachu is regarded as top 5, sometimes top 10; I've been saying top 2 with customs off (I think only Sheik is possibly better until I figure out a good answer to swords, since Sheik is better in those MUs).

 

[Nu~]

Actually it is? If his matchups aren't relevant to you, then his ranking sure isn't.

Having a good matchup against a character doesn't mean you are the better character overall

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Now, we had a good few pages of discussion on Pikachu earlier in the thread, so I won't repeat what I said there (in particular, Pikachu's advantages), but I'll address these as they look like misconceptions.

1) Edgeguarding is his only way to kill

While his edgeguarding is pretty strong, up-smash still kills super early, f-smash is disjointed and pivot f-smash is extremely safe to throw out, f-air into or up-b behind someone can confirm a kill, and dash attack can kill at higher percents. Pikachu doesn't have many problems killing if you are aggressive.

2) His lack of range

He has about the same range as Diddy (compare their d-tilts), and many of his attacks are disjointed, such as f-air and up-air. I have had some trouble with sword characters like Link and Pit, that much is true, but I don't think that he loses these matchups (and if he does, not by that much), because these characters aren't generally that good this time around (Shulk is probably the scariest, and he's also the easiest to juggle/edgeguard because of his slow air options). They have a one-dimensional advantage on him: disjoint, which allows them to win neutral and also to hit Pikachu away when he tries to edgeguard them. On counterbalance, they're slower, taller, and have a tough time resetting to neutral once Pikachu gets in advantage.

3) Damage output means he can't keep leads

Games with Pikachu shouldn't be going to time out, first of all, because other than Tjolt's being an S Tier projectile, Pikachu wants to go in against almost everyone. But second, if they do go to timeout, then Pikachu is likely to win because he's very light. When timeouts occur, the lighter character will almost always win the % battle just by virtue of being lighter and thus dying at lower percents. (of course, you could say that this means that he dies earlier, which is true, but that doesn't matter if the game comes to timeout anyway, since he's not losing his last stock in that case). Also, one of Pikachu's best way to build up damage is through his edgeguarding, which, as you said, is pretty strong.


Typically Pikachu is regarded as top 5, sometimes top 10; I've been saying top 2 with customs off (I think only Sheik is better).

sniff i noticed that suttle pit and link are crap remark xd.
dont make me have to settle dis in smash.

 

[NairWizard]

Pit and Link are better than their Brawl iterations for sure. Link is probably better than he's ever been.

Anyway, I always appreciate the practice lol. They are my hardest matchups right now as Pikachu. I am thrilled to see Sheik and Diddy when I play Pikachu, rather than Link and Pit.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pit and Link are better than their Brawl iterations for sure. Link is probably better than he's ever been.

Anyway, I always appreciate the practice lol. They are my hardest matchups right now as Pikachu. I am thrilled to see Sheik and Diddy when I play Pikachu, rather than Link and Pit.

add me at some point if u got a wiiu pm me and ill pm u. xd
and yeah im hearing scary things about link right now.

 

[A user name]

I agree Lucina shouldn't be next to Marth, but isn't the whole point of Lucina having a consistent sword to kill at reasonable percents?

Most of her moves kill at roughly 10% lower than Marth's moves would on the sour spot. In other words, she only kills at really high percents.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Most of her moves kill at roughly 10% lower than Marth's moves would on the sour spot. In other words, she only kills at really high percents.

and not to mention maths destructive 50% kill with tippered f smash. lucina xant kill very well at all.

 

[TL?]

Pit and Link are better than their Brawl iterations for sure. Link is probably better than he's ever been.

Anyway, I always appreciate the practice lol. They are my hardest matchups right now as Pikachu. I am thrilled to see Sheik and Diddy when I play Pikachu, rather than Link and Pit.

Good to hear this. I thought I was crazy thinking pit gives pikachu some trouble.

 

[Tattles]

Marth will rise to top tier as soon as people realize that range means very little, when you can kill other top tier characters at 40%. I can't wrap my head around why people think he's mediocre, let alone bad.

He takes a lot more skill this time around. A lot more accuracy, a lot more precision, and a lot more thought put into what he does. You can't throw stuff out anymore and hope it's a tipper. You need to always be thinking about your tipper and the best ways to hit them. You cannot flow-chart your way through Marth.

Tipper is top priority, and the single most effective tool a character possess's in the game; and it's all dependent on skill and coordination.

 

[BSP]

Where in high tier? Which character is he better than in those tiers? Gives me an idea on how high you believe he is.

I would put in your D tier. I think it's too early for order, but somewhere in there.

I would say that is better than without question. I do not know enough about the others to boldly claim that he is better than them, but I feel that is in the tier right under the top 15 in this game.

I made a giant post on him a while ago. http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-176#post-18108333

If a player played a game fully devoted to running away and using hydrant + trampoline to set up a base, while hitting you with Keys, you wouldn't be able to catch him without putting yourself at major risk every time. I haven't tried to do it because I'm a scrub and I don't want to abuse Sm4sh's rolls, but I can't imagine trying to catch a that does that.

The only problem is he's going to kill the scene if that becomes a thing.

Edit: On the occasion where he does have to approach, he's not too bad at it. His grab limits his CQC potential, but all of his tilts and aerials are decent/good, and he can still use him hydrant/trampoline/Fruits to back himself up or mess with the opponent.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Link is way better. Tink is way worse. Nuff said.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Marth will rise to top tier as soon as people realize that range means very little, when you can kill other top tier characters at 40%. I can't wrap my head around why people think he's mediocre, let alone bad.

Why do people still think this?

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062953

Marth, despite having smaller hitbox size usually (size=/= range), has longer disjoints when compared to Brawl on average.

Shoutouts to @ Shaya

 

[Tattles]

Why do people still think this?

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062953

Marth, despite having smaller hitbox size usually (size=/= range), has longer disjoints when compared to Brawl on average.

Shoutouts to @ Shaya

Less about his actual range, more about the fact that many characters have more range than him on certain attacks that really shouldn't. He can still get outranged a lot, despite having slightly longer range than in Brawl, which is the biggest and most perplexing thing.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Less about his actual range, more about the fact that many characters have more range than him on certain attacks that really shouldn't. He can still get outranged a lot, despite having slightly longer range than in Brawl, which is the biggest and most perplexing thing.

care to name a few?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Less about his actual range, more about the fact that many characters have more range than him on certain attacks that really shouldn't. He can still get outranged a lot, despite having slightly longer range than in Brawl, which is the biggest and most perplexing thing.

Like what?

Out of the higher tiers I don't see too much. Gunner is a given, but that's a bunch of projectiles, so... I really don't see what can outrange Marth other than like projectiles (which is sort of avoiding the range issue), and maybe Robin, but idk how far Levin reaches.

ZSS Nair?

 

[Tattles]

care to name a few?

Falcon's and Bowser's Fsmashes (off the top of my head). Falcon is probably the biggest offender; because, really, why?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Falcon's and Bowser's Fsmashes. Falcon is probably the biggest offender; because, really, why?

its not really range its more like thosr attacks have more priorety.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Falcon's and Bowser's Fsmashes. Falcon is probably the biggest offender.

Yeah no, these are just... not invalidating Marth.

Slow on startup, easily punishable. Easily blocked with Nair, Fair, nB, F Tilt, Dancing Blade... a lot of stuff, or just outright avoided and punished.

These two moves, while deadly, are not something you can just throw out. Also I highly doubt they outrange Marth to begin with, but Bowser's is a maybe since the feet are intangible, there's armor, and Bowser leaps out.

Now, if were something like ZSS Nair just outright going farther, you would have something, but Bowser and Falcon F Smash are not it.

 

[Tattles]

its not really range its more like thosr attacks have more priorety.

No, i've been in plenty of situations against a Falcon where i'll begin charging an Fsmash, barely miss, then get a sweet elbow to the face while he's still exactly where he was in the first place.

 

[Tattles]

Yeah no, these are just... not invalidating Marth.

My initial post was me saying exactly this. I don't understand why this turned into an argument. You asked for things that outrange him, I told you. Like what is going on.

 

[Jabejazz]

My initial post was me saying exactly this. I don't understand why this turned into an argument. You asked for things that outrange him, I told you. Like what is going on.

Except neither Bowser or Falcon are "top tier characters that outrange Marth".

I mean, you make it sound like people invalidate Marth as a character because of his range, while you're the first person that I see that brings that up.

 

[Tattles]

Except neither Bowser or Falcon are "top tier characters that outrange Marth"

I said moves that shouldn't outrange Marth do. They asked what moves. I said what moves. I'm not saying that his range is a problem. There is literally no denying that his range is less than that of Melee, which is what many people use as a comparative basis.

I don't know why people are taking a misunderstood and negligible detail in my post as if it's the only thing that it consisted of. It was not my point, nor was it even what many people are seeing it as.

 

[Blue Warrior]

I noticed recently on EventHubs that Bowser dipped from mid-high to bottom tier and I can't help but feel a bit baffled. What happened here? Was the bowsercide nerf just too much, or did people just find out that his gameplan was easier to counter than we had anticipated? I understand he had problems against some projectile pressure but he didn't seem problematic beyond that.

 

[warriorman222]

I noticed recently on EventHubs that Bowser dipped from mid-high to bottom tier and I can't help but feel a bit baffled. What happened here? Was the bowsercide nerf just too much, or did people just find out that his gameplan was easier to counter than we had anticipated? I understand he had problems against some projectile pressure but he didn't seem problematic beyond that.

Eventscrubs rely on Bowsercide for kills.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I noticed recently on EventHubs that Bowser dipped from mid-high to bottom tier and I can't help but feel a bit baffled. What happened here? Was the bowsercide nerf just too much, or did people just find out that his gameplan was easier to counter than we had anticipated? I understand he had problems against some projectile pressure but he didn't seem problematic beyond that.

its just hyperbole bowser fine.

 

[chipndip]

I noticed recently on EventHubs that Bowser dipped from mid-high to bottom tier and I can't help but feel a bit baffled. What happened here? Was the bowsercide nerf just too much, or did people just find out that his gameplan was easier to counter than we had anticipated? I understand he had problems against some projectile pressure but he didn't seem problematic beyond that.

If Bowsercide was the only thing making E-Hubs think Bowser was good, then maybe he was always bad to begin with. However, that isn't true either.

On the topic of Marth: He's not a high-tier. He has no cross-up option, his KO potential is rather difficult to tap into, and he's got nothing really special to give him a strong niche in the game, save for the amazing counter. But then again...it's just a counter...

Side note: I noticed this thread is relatively lively. Anyone want to do some matches on 3DS? I'm not at my Wii U, and won't be for about 1 week and a half or so.

 

[Yonder]

I noticed recently on EventHubs that Bowser dipped from mid-high to bottom tier and I can't help but feel a bit baffled. What happened here? Was the bowsercide nerf just too much, or did people just find out that his gameplan was easier to counter than we had anticipated? I understand he had problems against some projectile pressure but he didn't seem problematic beyond that.

Bowser syndrome. People overhype him so much initially, that their brains reset and call him bad. I knew he wasn't top the moment I saw him getting bodied by Duck Hunt.

Nonetheless, he's fantastic here upper mid no question, bottom high for a really big stretch. He's like a good DK or something here. (Seriously, DK was so perfect in Brawl sides infinites, he feels so ordinary off in Smash 4 but I can't claim why.)

 

[Blue Warrior]

Ah, so it's just flavor of the month then. Thanks for clarification.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I said moves that shouldn't outrange Marth do. They asked what moves. I said what moves. I'm not saying that his range is a problem. There is literally no denying that his range is less than that of Melee, which is what many people use as a comparative basis.

I don't know why people are taking a misunderstood and negligible detail in my post as if it's the only thing that it consisted of. It was not my point, nor was it even what many people are seeing it as.

The fact that those outrange Marth isn't relevant at all. Not only do they apply to characters that are not Top Tier (arguably, but the general consensus seems to be Mid or High for both. Still good characters, however!), or that in practice that situation won't come up often, what you said doesn't hold that much truth. Marth actually outranges those moves pretty easily with F Tilt and a few other moves.

Most everybody I've seen has said that his range is worse than Brawl. No one is arguing about Melee, that's pretty obvious, I agree.

Mostly what I was trying to do was try to put to rest the whole "Marth has a dagger thing". Also, you DID say that he has some range issues relative to the cast, which just is not true in the evidence you provided. I still don't see his range being worse than other characters.

Btw, if it sounds like I'm being a tad harsh, I apologize. I really didn't intend for that, its just how my words come out sometimes

 

[Emblem Lord]

Remember that visual animations doesnt mean that it represents the actual hitbox.


Anyone thats played Street Fighter knows what I mean.

 

[NairWizard]

Anyone thats played Street Fighter knows what I mean.

Or Meta Knight.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Or Meta Knight.

Yo 64 Kirby.

Sakurai. Give. It. Back.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The fact that those outrange Marth isn't relevant at all. Not only do they apply to characters that are not Top Tier (arguably, but the general consensus seems to be Mid or High for both. Still good characters, however!), or that in practice that situation won't come up often, what you said doesn't hold that much truth. Marth actually outranges those moves pretty easily with F Tilt and a few other moves.

Most everybody I've seen has said that his range is worse than Brawl. No one is arguing about Melee, that's pretty obvious, I agree.

Mostly what I was trying to do was try to put to rest the whole "Marth has a dagger thing". Also, you DID say that he has some range issues relative to the cast, which just is not true in the evidence you provided. I still don't see his range being worse than other characters.

Btw, if it sounds like I'm being a tad harsh, I apologize. I really didn't intend for that, its just how my words come out sometimes

if i recall correctilty dk out ranges marth in ground combat.

 

[kyxsune]

Yo 64 Kirby.

Sakurai. Give. It. Back.

dafuq? lol

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yo 64 Kirby.

Sakurai. Give. It. Back.

i ....i just

if ganon gets this treatment...

 

[KlefkiHolder]

if i recall correctilty dk out ranges marth in ground combat.

DK is one of the exceptions, yes, but, someone correct me if I'm wrong, even then he only has a few moves. F Tilt can go far, Bair as well, but the lack of (long) disjoints hurts him a little there.

Shulk's range is very big, likely greater than Marth's but I haven't seen/done any tests on it to form a conclusion on the severity of the difference.

dafuq? lol

There's a reason Kirby is a god in 64.

He actually has range there.

 

[B0NK]

naw its just me dissagreeing on there placement.

I feel it.

It's not really a matter of who I think he's better than, it's that I believe he should be around mid high tier in general. I want to know why you think he's so low

...Then I'll enlighten you on why he isn't

It really is a matter of what characters you think he's better than. I believe the highest I'd place him is to switch him with Mega Man. I don't believe he's a tier above Pits, Marios, etc in that tier but I can see him being in that tier of characters.

@ B0NK

Overall seems pretty good to me. However there is no way Lucina should be right next to Marth on the tier list. She lacks any way to kill at reasonable percents, making her significantly worse than Marth. Also Robin would probably be more like E or F tier.

I do feel she's worse than Marth but I don't believe she's worse than Ness, Villager, DHD, ROB, Jr and anybody else in the tier lower than her.

Her kill power isn't that much worse, she'll never kill with her aerial's like Marth can but she can kill consistently with her smashes earlier than Marth's un-tippered smashes, she can edgeguard the same as Marth, her neutral game is the same as Marth's and their up-throws kill the same. Her placement in my mind was "Well, yeah, she's worse than Marth but she's also better than all those other characters."

I kinda do, as mid/low tiers are looking at lot less limited and don't necessarily have one-sided matchups against them.

Lot of stuff I'm not used to see anymore, like Ike, Ganondorf and Charizard in the bottom. And Mario and Doc being so far apart from each other.

I believe that Doc lacking the air mobility of Mario and having all around worse moves than Mario was enough. It's really just his mobility that makes him that much worse, it makes it much harder for him to get close also makes it a lot harder for him to juggle, chase, and pseudo-combo characters. Air mobility is just a big deal for Mario's game and Doc doesn't have it. Now custom Doc with his superior recovery and killing cape in comparison to custom Mario could give him a run for his money.

As for Ganondorf, Ike, and Charizard, I simply believe they are a tier worst than all the character's above them. Ganondorf is a tier worse than all those in Ike tier cause his range, mobility, combos, recovery is just that much worse. He's unfortunately too similar to his Brawl counterpart.

I noticed recently on EventHubs that Bowser dipped from mid-high to bottom tier and I can't help but feel a bit baffled. What happened here? Was the bowsercide nerf just too much, or did people just find out that his gameplan was easier to counter than we had anticipated? I understand he had problems against some projectile pressure but he didn't seem problematic beyond that.

People learned how to gimp and keep Bowser out. I never thought he was high tier, even if only barely not. He still has one of the best moves in the game with his Up-B and only needs one read to take off a stock early.

Having a good matchup against a character doesn't mean you are the better character overall

Having good match ups against more characters than everyone else does though.

Now, we had a good few pages of discussion on Pikachu earlier in the thread, so I won't repeat what I said there (in particular, Pikachu's advantages), but I'll address these as they look like misconceptions.

1) Edgeguarding is his only way to kill

2) His lack of range

3) Damage output means he can't keep leads

Not misconceptions, when I see Pikachu having trouble against Zelda then Pikachu is not a Top 5 character by any means. (And yes, he has trouble cause Zelda kills earlier).

His edgeguarding is his only way to kill compared to Brawl. More characters kill more consistently earlier than Pikachu in this game. He really relies more so than ever that the opponent is using a character that doesn't get past Pika's edgeguarding easy.

He does lack range, so does Diddy, but Diddy's projectile and side b burst range allows him to overcome his lack of range. Pikachu can force an approach but will have a much harder time against characters with more range at neutral than Diddy does cause of the reward Diddy gets off his hits. Diddy gets a lot more reward of his throws than Pikachu does, which makes up for the fact a character is out boxing him and outplaying him at neutral he'll get a lot more damage off his punishes. (He gets a lot more reward and has a lot more KO options than pikachu too. Sure Diddy is the best character right now for a reason, but you compared his range to Pikachu. Yeah they have similar range, yeah both their range sucks, no Pikachu doesn't have enough good traits to overcome it and be Top 5. Give me a more realistic tier placement please. I can see him as being higher, but he doesn't come close to the Top 10, at least not with what I've seen or experienced of the character.

I believe games don't go to time yet because people are falling for gimmicks more. (Just like in early Brawl). I've seen many grand final matches hit the 30 seconds left mark in their games. Give people more time and we'll be seeing it more. (It's why I'm all for 2 stocks, I don't wanna play the game for another 2 minutes longer for no good reason. Just gives your opponent a chance to wake up and you a chance to get mentally tired).

I would put in your D tier. I think it's too early for order, but somewhere in there.

Thank you for a real answer.

Him in the D-tier I could see. I currently don't believe his tools are enough for D tier, but I already am in agreement he should be the tier above where he currently is on my list.

Link is way better. Tink is way worse. Nuff said.

I do believe Tink is worse, I don't believe he's waaaaay worse. It's like Marth/Lucina where "Yeah he's worse than Link, but he's better than all those other characters."

Now if you're arguing for a higher placement for Link, that I could see. RIP Tink.


Sorry if I missed anyone's post. Thank you all for the input.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

down tilt klling at 120% and a very good range. i dont think ganons bad cuz he has small combos that efeectivly do the same ammount of damage 4 of another do.


and come on did you not even watch blits ike?

 

[B0NK]

down tilt klling at 120% and a very good range. i dont think ganons bad cuz he has small combos that efeectivly do the same ammount of damage 4 of another do.


and come on did you not even watch blits ike?

I watch Red-X's / Error 404's which I believe is better and has more tourney experience.

But yeah Ganon can kill early, Ganon can hit less and do more damage, but he had that in Brawl and it didn't mean much. Having a bad neutral game, bad mobility, a bad recovery, average range, and overall slower moves (frame wise) than the whole cast is just that much of a handicap for him. Anything Ganon can do there's a character that can do it better.

But if you don't believe he's a tier below everyone, where would you put him? Who is he better than?