Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

I agree with Z'zgashi here. Mega Man's Metal Blade and pellets are better at setting things up than any combination of projectiles Samus can use. Mega Man has a far better grab game than Samus, too, because he has a normal grab and his grab sets more things up for him. As far as Mega Man goes, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up high tier at some point with his trapping options. Samus... not so much.

Charge Shot is amazing, though (Mega Man wishes he could store his FSmash and use it in the air) and her customs probably help her set up more traps. Her biggest problem is that some of her moves are inconsistent (USmash, FAir, UAir) and her set in general just doesn't flow. Her tilts have good range, though, and she can chase people down pretty hard once she gets in.

Even though I just did it, it's probably not fair to compare Mega Man and Samus; they play very differently. They're only comparable because they're both zoners.

i dunno but thats mostly because i dont think of samus as a zoner. at least from the highnlevel play and experimenting my self she seems more effective when you use her projectiles as an approach option than a keep away. since super missles have the delay before propelling so she could start her rush in. And when you do need that time to breath down b works wonders as area control. its a great way to prevent rush down characters from going all in.

oh and consistancy issues occur with all attacks that hit more than once. i swear im tramatized by pits up smash and f smash cuz of it.

I plus i belive she runs faster than mega man. (dont quote me) so i dont know how slow people consider slow is.

Personally i just droped falco for her as my secondary.

i also kinda refuse to think someone with such low lag air attacks is low tier. but perhaps im wrong. anyway ima be labbing her and see what i can get out of it. wish me luck.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The main problem with Samus is that she doesnt excel at any range or with any playstyle currently, she's just a mash up of random tools that dont have a meshing purpose. Sure she can kinda zone, but her projectiles have massive blindspots and are slow so you can consistently keep them out. She can use her grab game, but her grab is slow and laggy and therefor unreliable. She can use her melee game with her tilts, jab, and short hop aerials, but theyre unsafe and punishable.

She's more a jack of all trades, master of none, and with her lack of a way to get in, lack of ways to keep them out, and her slow speed on the ground, the air, and even in fall speed, she ends up not having any way to play an opponents weakness and cant stop the opponent from abusing their strengths. Sure, she CAN play at any range or playstyle, but her problem is she has no way to control her opponent. All around characters need to be able to control an opponent so that they can play in a way that counters their opponent and have fall back options that can cover the opponent's strengths, but when you have no way to control a match, the opponent ends up reversing that and turning it on you. Sure, on paper she may not have any major weaknesses, but her opponent can take advantage of her lack of control and can force her into a position where they have the better options.

For example, say youre against a character who sucks at a range, but is good up close, and another who sucks up close and is good at a range. Samus will generally lose to both, and here's why; against the short range character, Samus' lack of zoning or escape tools means the melee character can get in and force her to play a boxing game up close, where the other character is better, and while Samus has the better long range game, she cant take advantage of it since her zoning game is too slow and easy to get around. Against the long range character, Samus' lack of approach tools, mobility options, or better projectiles means she can be camped all day and Samus cant get in; in this match up, sure she has the better melee options, but she cant take advantage of them.

Overall, Samus just ends up being this character who, on the surface isnt necessarily bad, but she doesnt have any stand out options or ways to get into an advantageous situation, so her opponent can just play to their own strengths and Samus just cant abuse their weaknesses like other characters since she cant control any situations. And while yes, she has combos, the point is that she cant consistently get hits or get an upper hand in practically any situation.

 

[Chuva]

As I've said a couple pages before: From a competitive point of view, why play Samus over Gunner?

What do you guys think about R.O.B. dittos?

That sounds...boring

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The main problem with Samus is that she doesnt excel at any range or with any playstyle currently, she's just a mash up of random tools that dont have a meshing purpose. Sure she can kinda zone, but her projectiles have massive blindspots and are slow so you can consistently keep them out. She can use her grab game, but her grab is slow and laggy and therefor unreliable. She can use her melee game with her tilts, jab, and short hop aerials, but theyre unsafe and punishable.

She's more a jack of all trades, master of none, and with her lack of a way to get in, lack of ways to keep them out, and her slow speed on the ground, the air, and even in fall speed, she ends up not having any way to play an opponents weakness and cant stop the opponent from abusing their strengths. Sure, she CAN play at any range or playstyle, but her problem is she has no way to control her opponent. All around characters need to be able to control an opponent so that they can play in a way that counters their opponent and have fall back options that can cover the opponent's strengths, but when you have no way to control a match, the opponent ends up reversing that and turning it on you. Sure, on paper she may not have any major weaknesses, but her opponent can take advantage of her lack of control and can force her into a position where they have the better options.

For example, say youre against a character who sucks at a range, but is good up close, and another who sucks up close and is good at a range. Samus will generally lose to both, and here's why; against the short range character, Samus' lack of zoning or escape tools means the melee character can get in and force her to play a boxing game up close, where the other character is better, and while Samus has the better long range game, she cant take advantage of it since her zoning game is too slow and easy to get around. Against the long range character, Samus' lack of approach tools, mobility options, or better projectiles means she can be camped all day and Samus cant get in; in this match up, sure she has the better melee options, but she cant take advantage of them.

Overall, Samus just ends up being this character who, on the surface isnt necessarily bad, but she doesnt have any stand out options or ways to get into an advantageous situation, so her opponent can just play to their own strengths and Samus just cant abuse their weaknesses like other characters since she cant control any situations. And while yes, she has combos, the point is that she cant consistently get hits or get an upper hand in practically any situation.

cant say i agree but ill yeild to it.

ima continue with her because i feel she has the tools to win. if maing reads is what i have to do ill do it.

im learning many things that make her good each game.

also by easy to get through projectiles what do u mean? sheild? jump? dodge? im pretty sure anyone with a good head on there shoulders can predict and or cover any of those options. hell links ranged game is threating and but does not stop the fact that shield approach is super easy to do.

charge beam is one of the most threating punishs in the game.
Zair coverage i dont need to get into how big a thing this is.
missiles once again not a zoning tool but a defensive tool along with down b ( well i only use super missiles) to threaten shield and close distance.
and i honestly feel people are sleeping on up tilt. unlike c falcon it covers a more similar range to marths f smash and is a great anti ait that kills at the 120% range.
and she has killing options a big thing in this game as well.

honestly i just dont see low teir on her.

and i dissagree on losing to both close and ranged fighters. i believe her worst mu revolve around characters that have lingering reflect moves. (fox,falco) just cause missiles are just so important to her.

but i digress some people dont like to see the positives enough.

but anyway i guess i might have to take player skill into account though. but regardless if samus is low teir than im beating an old horse by saying this games balance is freaking fantastic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not sure I agree with that analysis of Samus Z'zgashi. She's sorta ridiculous in midrange with Charge Shot and Z-air. Both those options simultaneously put a lot of pressure on mobility options, and further reward her on hit by keeping her in a favorable position where she's safe from retaliation. Even when you get past that, Samus's relatively long range tilts and her Jab and Up-B all have to be addressed differently. Lack of a regular grab does hinder her, but homing missiles and bombs have to be respected when you're trying to shield your way in against her.

Combine that with the fact she's one of the most difficult characters in the game to kill, Charge Shot being an insanely good punish, and solid edgeguarding, it's very difficult for me to believe the character is bad. She just laughs off a lot of hits, is a chore to pin down, and the relative reward of her punishes is pretty good (good damage, great KO potential from edgeguards and juggles). Though a consistent Jab would make her pretty blatantly high tier imo considering how much synergy it would have with Charge Shot.

Then we get into the subject of custom missiles and Samus gets legit TERRIFYING unless your name is Falco.

 

[Asdioh]

I'm gonna be playing some offline friendlies today and I think I'm gonna play more Samus. I thought Zairs were supposed to be laggy in this game, but last I checked they really weren't, so her Zair is still amazing? And any character with a long range projectile with massive kill power can't be too bad. I'm gonna be playing a Link main though, so he can block it just by standing or walking

I know I love playing against Samus as Kirby, because that charge shot is tons of fun, just like it is in every game. If I had the choice of taking any Copy power into any match, I would choose Charge Shot 90% of the time. Kirby would be undisputed top tier if that were the case.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Am I the only one who think PacMan is being slept on. I think this character is going to be high tier eventually. He has a ton going for him.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Am I the only one who think PacMan is being slept on. I think this character is going to be high tier eventually. He has a ton going for him.

he does.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Pacmans dash attack is great. His forward smash is pretty damn good. Projectile game is great too especially if you can build a strategy around getting the key and the better projectiles.

 

[Asdioh]

one of the best players in my region/best players on the nintendodojo ladder seems to be a dual Dr Mario/Pacman main (mostly Pacman I believe)
He absolutely is a good character, but I haven't played against one offline to see what it's like. Fruits are one of the best projectiles in the game for obvious reasons, trampoline messes up grounded approaches, SideB for recovery and stuff is very nice, and of course the hydrant is always useful. He has weird priority on a lot of his attacks, that make me jealous because Kirby doesn't have anything like that, what you see is what you get with him.

 

[Deleted member]

What do people think of Yoshi's Uair? I wonder if it can be used for a good killing option?

 

[Kofu]

The thing with Samus's customs is that it's all theorycraft right now. The slow-moving or delayed missiles seem like they could greatly increase her pressure and the slow charge shot becomes the scariest trapping tool in the game (not sure if I'd always pick it over the normal but it's an option) but AFAIK no one has really taken advantage of them yet. This might be due to a lack of Samus mains but if custom testers get so hyped about her possibilities with customs then why aren't any of them putting in work to shown us what she can do with them?

A2Z's right when he says she's hard to kill. Thanks to her weight and floatiness, she's excellent at horizontal recovery and bombs help her mix that up. Her vertical recovery seems kind of poor to me in this game, however. I'm pretty sure Screw Attack got nerfed in distance (I could just be misjudging it lol) and her second jump isn't anything spectacular so it she's sent pretty far down she's probably out of luck. One of her custom options helps here too, though.

ZAir lost one of its selling points from Brawl as a damage racker; 1-3% isn't really worth inflicting beyond spacing (which it's still good at, by the way). Grounded opponents can tech her UTilt if she hits them with her heel because, unlike Captain Falcon's UTilt, it only spikes them if they're grounded (great design choice there, guys). It's still a phenominal ledge trapping tool though. Her new NAir is... interesting, I know some people who like it and some who don't (I'm undecided).

She's not a bad character by any means but she doesn't really excel anywhere except midrange and I think there are characters that are better than her there. But you know, we could ask actual Samus mains for their input, too. Summon @IsmaR

As an aside, I'm kind of disappointed she didn't get a move set overhaul like Bowser and I'm also disappointed by the creativity of her customs. She's got a diverse array of weapons from the games but instead of giving her the Mega Man treatment she gets straightforward alterations. They're effective from a gameplay standpoint but K was hoping for at least an Ice Beam custom and a bomb that actually acts a little like the Power Bombs instead of just looking like them.

 

[Nu~]

Am I the only one who think PacMan is being slept on. I think this character is going to be high tier eventually. He has a ton going for him.

Shhhhh.
They don't need to know that yet

 

[Road Death Wheel]

i think i can vouch for relentless missles being great but we will never see it in a while. since earning custom moves on the wiiu version is even more a pain than 3ds.

 

[BriefCasey795]

Am I the only one who suspects that once we have an accurate tier list, that Kirby might be a mid tier character? Although I don't follow tiers, Kirby seems really good in this game.

One thing is that buff his hammer received, because it's deadly if timed right. It's also probably best to use when your opponent has landing lag from a recovery move. His back throw can also KO at high percentages, and same with his back air. His up tilt can also lead into combos if I'm not wrong. Also, I personally think the most deadly of his moves if used right is his down air. The last hit is capable of landing a meteor smash, but if that doesn't work, you can just footstool your opponent right afterwards. Either way, if one of the other happens, it would either greatly hinder or destroy their recovery chance, depending on the character and damage.

Not sure if there's more to what I've listed. Hopefully if there are any other Kirby mains who follow this thread, I could hear a bit more from them.

 

[LiteralGrill]

There is an all Mii tournament going on today with a prize pool for $50. Perhaps there will be an archive for those who see this later, but maybe there is something to bee seen here with Miis.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I see a ton of people who have fox top 8. Am I the only ine who feels this character is slightly overhyped?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I see a ton of people who have fox top 8. Am I the only ine who feels this character is slightly overhyped?

lol fox is always overhyped.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo Fox isnt top 10. Maybe top 15 (Probably around 14-16ish) but not top 10.

 

[deepseadiva]

Am I the only one who think PacMan is being slept on. I think this character is going to be high tier eventually. He has a ton going for him.

Which characters are not slept on exactly. Like and

Welcome to the game-has-been-out-for-less-than-30-days club.

 

[B0NK]

ayyy tier list (No customs)

Top
A: Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Lucario
High
B: Fox, Sonic, ZSS, Greninja
C: Wario, Yoshi, Marth, Lucina, Ness
D: ROB, Bowser Jr., Villager, Duck Hunt Dog, Robin, Lil Mac
Mid
E: Pit, Dark Pit, Luigi, Mario, Shulk, Bowser, D3, WFT, Mega Man
F: Pac Man, Peach, Kirby, G&W, DK, Falcon, Link, Toon Link
G: Zelda, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Olimar, MK, Dr. Mario
Low
H: Samus, Ike, Charizard, Falco, Palutena
I: Ganondorf

Who's too high or too low in your opinion?

Should Diddy remain #1? Is a frame trap d-throw and his up air enough to keep him at #1?

Is Fox really too high? He seems to be a lot of player's answer to Diddy currently. (A lot being like... 2 players ayyy).

Are characters in their proper tier even if out of order? Does anyone care about characters not in the Top 10?

Will you just ignore this post like you should?!?!

#ayyyy

This is my own personal tier list I update constantly, I had one for Brawl too. I just thought I'd hear Smashboards' thoughts instead of just my personal circles' in the competitive community.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

ayyy tier list (No customs)

Top
A: Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Lucario
High
B: Fox, Sonic, ZSS, Greninja
C: Wario, Yoshi, Marth, Lucina, Ness
D: ROB, Bowser Jr., Villager, Duck Hunt Dog, Robin, Lil Mac
Mid
E: Pit, Dark Pit, Luigi, Mario, Shulk, Bowser, D3, WFT, Mega Man
F: Pac Man, Peach, Kirby, G&W, DK, Falcon, Link, Toon Link
G: Zelda, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Olimar, MK, Dr. Mario
Low
H: Samus, Ike, Charizard, Falco, Palutena
I: Ganondorf

Who's too high or too low in your opinion?

Should Diddy remain #1? Is a frame trap d-throw and his up air enough to keep him at #1?

Is Fox really too high? He seems to be a lot of player's answer to Diddy currently. (A lot being like... 2 players ayyy).

Are characters in their proper tier even if out of order? Does anyone care about characters not in the Top 10?

Will you just ignore this post like you should?!?!

#ayyyy

This is my own personal tier list I update constantly, I had one for Brawl too. I just thought I'd hear Smashboards' thoughts instead of just my personal circles' in the competitive community.

lets try to avoid arbitrary tier lists based off of opinion. there are other threads for this.

buuuuuuut everyone that low tier is too low xd.

 

[B0NK]

lets try to avoid arbitrary tier lists based off of opinion. there are other threads for this.

buuuuuuut everyone that low tier is too low xd.

Well, please direct me to a different thread in Competitive Discussion lol.

And who would you say should be Low Tier then? I'm open to all opinions.

EDIT: or is doing something like this look better for you:

Spoiler

A: Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Lucario
B: Fox, Sonic, ZSS, Greninja
C: Wario, Yoshi, Marth, Lucina, Ness
D: ROB, Bowser Jr., Villager, Duck Hunt Dog, Robin, Lil Mac
E: Pit, Dark Pit, Luigi, Mario, Shulk, Bowser, D3, WFT, Mega Man
F: Pac Man, Peach, Kirby, G&W, DK, Falcon, Link, Toon Link
G: Zelda, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Olimar, MK, Dr. Mario
H: Samus, Ike, Charizard, Falco, Palutena
I: Ganondorf

 

[Nu~]

Pacman should be high tier.
But I'm not going to start a page long argument on opinions

 

[deepseadiva]

lets try to avoid arbitrary tier lists based off of opinion. there are other threads for this.

I don't believe there are.

Everything on your list seems pretty accepted @ B0NK . Palutena I wouldn't consider terrible and at least midish. Peach is also glaringly low - at least a few tiers. All IMHO of course. Probably the most confusing is your C and D tiers. Those characters are all over the place in everyone lists.

 

[B0NK]

Pacman should be high tier.
But I'm not going to start a page long argument on opinions

Where in high tier? Which character is he better than in those tiers? Gives me an idea on how high you believe he is.

I don't believe there are.

Everything on your list seems pretty accepted @ B0NK . Palutena I wouldn't consider terrible and at least midish. Peach is also glaringly low - at least a few tiers. All IMHO of course. Probably the most confusing is your C and D tiers. Those characters are all over the place in everyone lists.

Yeah it's really early and this game is more balanced than other Smash games, so it's difficult to use prior smash game experience to exactly place characters.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm just dying for all the breakout characters. Brawl was exciting for sometime just because every once in awhile some strange character main would come out of the woodwork.

"OH **** SONIC BEAT M2K?????"

"OMG DAT IKE WON A REGIONAL????"

My bets are on Villager, Bowser Jr, MK, Palutena, and Dedede.

 

[Lavani]

Will you just ignore this post like you should?!?!

Apparently not.

Curious about your thoughts on a lot of characters, but I'll try and condense it down to what jumps out at me most: Bowser Jr. and Wii Fit Trainer are higher on your list than I've seen anyone else rank them, and I've never seen Falcon or Pikachu put below the likes of Kirby, G&W, or Zelda before. Care to expand a bit on these?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well, please direct me to a different thread in Competitive Discussion lol.

And who would you say should be Low Tier then? I'm open to all opinions.

EDIT: or is doing something like this look better for you:

Spoiler

A: Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Lucario
B: Fox, Sonic, ZSS, Greninja
C: Wario, Yoshi, Marth, Lucina, Ness
D: ROB, Bowser Jr., Villager, Duck Hunt Dog, Robin, Lil Mac
E: Pit, Dark Pit, Luigi, Mario, Shulk, Bowser, D3, WFT, Mega Man
F: Pac Man, Peach, Kirby, G&W, DK, Falcon, Link, Toon Link
G: Zelda, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Olimar, MK, Dr. Mario
H: Samus, Ike, Charizard, Falco, Palutena
I: Ganondorf

naw its just me dissagreeing on there placement.

 

[Nu~]

Where in high tier? Which character is he better than in those tiers? Gives me an idea on how high you believe he is.

It's not really a matter of who I think he's better than, it's that I believe he should be around mid high tier in general. I want to know why you think he's so low

...Then I'll enlighten you on why he isn't

 

[A user name]

@ B0NK

Overall seems pretty good to me. However there is no way Lucina should be right next to Marth on the tier list. She lacks any way to kill at reasonable percents, making her significantly worse than Marth. Also Robin would probably be more like E or F tier.

 

[deepseadiva]

It's not really a matter of who I think he's better than, it's that I believe he should be around mid high tier. I want to know why you think he's so low

...Then I'll enlighten you on why he isn't

This is the worst kind of discussion lmao

 

[Nu~]

This is the worst kind of discussion lmao

XD
Maybe it's not the right time to be facetious.
But I still want to know why he's so low on the list

 

[Yonder]

At lea

I'm just dying for all the breakout characters. Brawl was exciting for sometime just because every once in awhile some strange character main would come out of the woodwork.

"OH **** SONIC BEAT M2K?????"

"OMG DAT IKE WON A REGIONAL????"

My bets are on Villager, Bowser Jr, MK, Palutena, and Dedede.

Well Luigi became a breakout character thanks to Boss and Mr.Concon...Idk everyone else's tourney results.

 

[Jabejazz]

Does anyone care about characters not in the Top 10?

I kinda do, as mid/low tiers are looking at lot less limited and don't necessarily have one-sided matchups against them.

Lot of stuff I'm not used to see anymore, like Ike, Ganondorf and Charizard in the bottom. And Mario and Doc being so far apart from each other.

It's not really a matter of who I think he's better than

Actually it is? If his matchups aren't relevant to you, then his ranking sure isn't.

 

[NairWizard]

Took Mii Gunner pretty far in a tourney yesterday (lost WF with her, then switched to Pikachu in LF, so not through the whole tournament), was too tired afterwards to post my thoughts while they were fresh in my head. I might consider maining this character; she's absurdly good. To start with, she's not just a zoner like DHD, Pacman, Megaman, etc. She's also a counter-zoner, because her choice of reflector means that she can actually benefit from the projectiles that others choose to use (healing or reflecting back). So in zoner vs. zoner matchups, Gunner flat out comes out ahead.

If you were thinking that she's bad outside of flat stages, you were wrong. I'd say that she's even better when platforms are involved, because of her mobility with b-reverses and f-air momentum shifts. I actually did better when people counterpicked Battlefield on me than when we played on flat stages because my projectiles weren't doing that much damage anyway; using them for mobility was much more rewarding than using them for playing keepaway (even on flat stages, just that it was harder to use them for mobility without platforms). Town and City was also quite lucrative.

The real kicker is that she's even better in close range than she is at a distance. Up-tilt, b-air, and the space created by grenades means that you should be 10x more terrified when Gunner gets up in your face than when Gunner is pelting you from afar. It's hilariously coincidental design (I can't imagine that this was intentional) that the best zoner in the game also happens to be the best anti-zoner and also happens to prefer close range to zoning anyway.

There's no way that this character is worse than the likes of Fox, Rosalina, etc. She's every bit as dominant and absurd as other Top Tiers.

 

[B0NK]

I'm just dying for all the breakout characters. Brawl was exciting for sometime just because every once in awhile some strange character main would come out of the woodwork.

"OH **** SONIC BEAT M2K?????"

"OMG DAT IKE WON A REGIONAL????"

My bets are on Villager, Bowser Jr, MK, Palutena, and Dedede.

Pretty good bets... I'm a gambling man and may take them at some point LOL

Apparently not.

Curious about your thoughts on a lot of characters, but I'll try and condense it down to what jumps out at me most: Bowser Jr. and Wii Fit Trainer are higher on your list than I've seen anyone else rank them, and I've never seen Falcon or Pikachu put below the likes of Kirby, G&W, or Zelda before. Care to expand a bit on these?

Sure.

Bowser Jr:
Mainly going from what I've seen some players do with the character. (Mainly, Ninjalink and Dekillsage). He really highlights how well Jr can KO when he saves aerials for KOs. Jr's recovery isn't very gimp-able and has good survivability which are amazing character traits to have in Smash games. He gets a average zoning game which makes up for his lack of easy ways in on characters. He's very similar to Diddy in the regard that he uses his projectiles to move his opponent in a certain ways and highlight his moves. As for weaknesses, Jr doesn't like characters with a good pressure game nor does he like characters that kill him before he does.

WFT: An all-around average character in every regard. I simply believe she has a stronger neutral game and can KO better than the characters below her.

Falcon: He has amazing KO power and good buttons but in the long run I don't see him above the characters that are above him in my list. Kirby is underrated, while he's worse than he was in Brawl he still has the same neutral game and moves. They're range is worse and he lost his grab combos, but he can still play his game and his nerfs from Brawl didn't change that.

Pikachu: He has an amazing edge-guard game but that's his only way to gain KOs. His lack of range has always been the thorn in his side, he'll have worse match ups then the characters above him and he'll have to work a lot harder to finish a game. His damage output is good but not good enough to rely on it to consistently keep leads in case the game leads to a timeout.

G&W: Same thing as Kirby, worse than brawl but his neutral game hasn't changed and it's still a solid neutral game in the meta.



I'll be heading out for now, I'll read up and respond to more post later tonight.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Took Mii Gunner pretty far in a tourney yesterday (lost WF with her, then switched to Pikachu in LF, so not through the whole tournament), was too tired afterwards to post my thoughts while they were fresh in my head. I might consider maining this character; she's absurdly good. To start with, she's not just a zoner like DHD, Pacman, Megaman, etc. She's also a counter-zoner, because her choice of reflector means that she can actually benefit from the projectiles that others choose to use (healing or reflecting back). So in zoner vs. zoner matchups, Gunner flat out comes out ahead.

If you were thinking that she's bad outside of flat stages, you were wrong. I'd say that she's even better when platforms are involved, because of her mobility with b-reverses and f-air momentum shifts. I actually did better when people counterpicked Battlefield on me than when we played on flat stages because my projectiles weren't doing that much damage anyway; using them for mobility was much more rewarding than using them for playing keepaway (even on flat stages, just that it was harder to use them for mobility without platforms). Town and City was also quite lucrative.

The real kicker is that she's even better in close range than she is at a distance. Up-tilt, b-air, and the space created by grenades means that you should be 10x more terrified when Gunner gets up in your face than when Gunner is pelting you from afar. It's hilariously coincidental design (I can't imagine that this was intentional) that the best zoner in the game also happens to be the best anti-zoner and also happens to prefer close range to zoning anyway.

There's no way that this character is worse than the likes of Fox, Rosalina, etc. She's every bit as dominant and absurd as other Top Tiers.

Halfway off topic but I keep thinking Gunner is what Samus should have been.

 

[ZeldaMaster]

Is Marth really solid mid-tier? I honestly think he's at least top 20, if not better.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Halfway off topic but I keep thinking Gunner is what Samus should have been.

soo short?