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Character Competitive Impressions

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Road Death Wheel

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I watch Red-X's / Error 404's which I believe is better and has more tourney experience.

But yeah Ganon can kill early, Ganon can hit less and do more damage, but he had that in Brawl and it didn't mean much. Having a bad neutral game, bad mobility, a bad recovery, average range, and overall slower moves (frame wise) than the whole cast is just that much of a handicap for him. Anything Ganon can do there's a character that can do it better.

But if you don't believe he's a tier below everyone, where would you put him? Who is he better than?
that a hard answer to give since in smash 4 everything gets so muddled after the considered high tiers.

but i will say ganon being able to kill with fast tilts is huge for a game that has such a strong shield game. tech chases from command grab one again big. and the overall less landing lag plays a great part as well. i dont see what u see i guess. but ur talking to a guy who primaraly mains heavys as secondarys.

lol just try telling ray kalm ganon aint mid teir xd.
 

B0NK

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@Ray_Kalm He's not mid tier. Though the Low tier to High tier gap is much smaller than it's ever been in any smash game.

There you go @ Road Death Wheel Road Death Wheel -_^b

Also I love heavies, but I love winning more.
 

HeoandReo

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I do feel she's worse than Marth but I don't believe she's worse than Ness, Villager, DHD, ROB, Jr and anybody else in the tier lower than her.

Her kill power isn't that much worse, she'll never kill with her aerial's like Marth can but she can kill consistently with her smashes earlier than Marth's un-tippered smashes, she can edgeguard the same as Marth, her neutral game is the same as Marth's and their up-throws kill the same. Her placement in my mind was "Well, yeah, she's worse than Marth but she's also better than all those other characters."
I usually just lurk but I feel inclined to respond to this, since I use both Marth and Lucina and I would say the difference is quite a bit more significant than what you're saying.

Lucina can't kill with aerials, which is very true and is a much bigger issue that you seem to imply. She also can't kill with tilts either, or at least not nearly as early as Marth can. Her options if she wants to kill reasonably low are mostly limited to fsmash and usmash, which are very few options compared to pretty much the rest of the cast. Unless she gets the opponent offstage and gets a successful edgeguard, she ain't killing anything.

Killpower for smashes aren't much different either - It was stated a little earlier than Lucina's attacks on average are only 10% lower than Marth's sourspot. You do acknowledge where she's slightly stronger than sourspot Marth, but that's not really a point in Lucina's favour at all imo since tippers are mad strong in this game. You can kill with Marth's tippered fsmash at 30-40%. You can't do that reliably with Lucina until more than twice the damage amount, so Lucina in practice is Marth with a permanent sourspot. Combined with her general lack of kill moves and functionally shorter range, (yeah swords are the same length, but Lucina being slightly shorter hurts more than it helps) I'm not buying that she's just barely worse than Marth or even better than the other characters you mentioned.
 

B0NK

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Lucina Marth stuff
Alright.

Now I ask, who do you think she's worse than in my list? Is she worse than Ness? Worse than Lil Mac? Worse than Pit? Give me an idea of where you would place her since she's that much worse than Marth.

My list as originally posted again:

Top
A: Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Lucario
High
B: Fox, Sonic, ZSS, Greninja
C: Wario, Yoshi, Marth, Lucina, Ness
D: ROB, Bowser Jr., Villager, Duck Hunt Dog, Robin, Lil Mac
Mid
E: Pit, Urban pit, Luigi, Mario, Shulk, Bowser, D3, WFT, Mega Man
F: Pac Man, Peach, Kirby, G&W, DK, Falcon, Link, Toon Link
G: Zelda, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Olimar, MK, Dr. Mario
Low
H: Samus, Ike, Charizard, Falco, Palutena
I: Ganondorf
 
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Tagxy

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Well, please direct me to a different thread in Competitive Discussion lol.

And who would you say should be Low Tier then? I'm open to all opinions.

EDIT: or is doing something like this look better for you:
Read the OP. As the discussion on the last few pages suggests instead of focusing discussion on the characters abilities and true viability discussion ends up focusing around an arbitrary list; "I think x character should be higher then y character" or "x character should be mid tier". I wouldnt have made this post if this wasnt happening as a result of the list provided.
 
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B0NK

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@ Tagxy Tagxy

That's how tier list discussions go, yea.

Then maybe there should be a place provided in the competitive board to discuss tier placements in respect to other characters. Sure, some people don't care about tier lists, but obviously enough people do if my post led to this much discussion and there's personal tier list threads being posted each week. Ironically, those tier list threads are being directed to this thread.

I'm just following the rules and what people have been told to do.
 
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Nu~

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Lets focus on the strengths and weakness of each character instead of trying to force a tier list so early. This isn't brawl, melee, or any past smash incarnation. This is smash 4. Let's try to steer away from past methods, especially when this game is so much more balanced than the older ones.
 
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B0NK

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I didn't force anything ;)

I would just like to discuss a possible tier list and this is where I'm told I can.
 

Tagxy

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@ B0NK B0NK
Well the OP clearly states to not post them here either. Im not sure if theres another place to post them, maybe in the general discussion sub-forum, you have have to ask a mod or in a Q&A. Its true tier list discussions have followed a certain trend, that trend was determined to lead to discussion that was a bit more shallow and spammy, and why this particular thread (forum?) was created to actively avoid that.

That being said if you stick around I think youll find its an overall much more enjoyable experience as well and a ton of good information comes from this thread.
 
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HeavyLobster

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As for Ganondorf, Ike, and Charizard, I simply believe they are a tier worst than all the character's above them. Ganondorf is a tier worse than all those in Ike tier cause his range, mobility, combos, recovery is just that much worse. He's unfortunately too similar to his Brawl counterpart.
Can you explain how Ike is listed that low? I understand why you'd list Ganondorf and Charizard that low(even if I don't entirely agree), but Ike in 1.04 isn't a low tier because he can stay much safer thanks to his F-air buffs. His damage racking, range, combos, and kill power are quite impressive and his mobility is passable. His customs also help patch up his recovery and make it a bit easier to get in on projectile users, making him a formidable threat. Even without customs he's a cut above the likes of Mario, Doc, Kirby, etc.
 
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suarsuar

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Sheik will remain a threat for the next couple of months and it would do everyone well to drop the "she can't kill" cop out.
 

HeoandReo

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Alright.

Now I ask, who do you think she's worse than in my list? Is she worse than Ness? Worse than Lil Mac? Worse than Pit? Give me an idea of where you would place her since she's that much worse than Marth.

My list as originally posted again:

Top
A: Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Lucario
High
B: Fox, Sonic, ZSS, Greninja
C: Wario, Yoshi, Marth, Lucina, Ness
D: ROB, Bowser Jr., Villager, Duck Hunt Dog, Robin, Lil Mac
Mid
E: Pit, Urban pit, Luigi, Mario, Shulk, Bowser, D3, WFT, Mega Man
F: Pac Man, Peach, Kirby, G&W, DK, Falcon, Link, Toon Link
G: Zelda, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Olimar, MK, Dr. Mario
Low
H: Samus, Ike, Charizard, Falco, Palutena
I: Ganondorf
My overall impression between the two is that if Marth is high, Lucina is probably mid, maybe around E or F tier given your parameters. She does share much of the same strengths as Marth, but there are a lot of matchups that, given her weaknesses that I've outlined, are quite a bit more difficult for her than they are for Marth. (Lucario is particularly notable, since Lucina doesn't have the capability to just end things with a tipper and pretty much has to risk her skin activating Aura + Rage each time just in the process of getting a kill) That is probably how I'd sum up the two. If Marth can't edgeguard his opponent, he can at least grab an early kill with a tipper. With Lucina, you lose the option for early kills and have to wait a lot longer if you can't edgeguard your opponent.

The range difference is also more notable than I'd like to admit. In shield, certain attacks can knock Marth away at just the right distance to punish with tippered ftilt or fsmash. With Lucina, you can't do that because she just barely misses them. It's really frustrating using both, because Lucina's not short enough that she'll not get hit by something that can hit Marth, but short enough that she can't control space nearly as well as her counterpart.
 

Emblem Lord

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Bonk...thats alot of letters...like...wow

Main thing that hurts Lucina at high level is that her attacks leave her at more disadvantage than Marth. So her d-tilt trap is worse and she has like...one safe move on block which is fully spaced nair. I think that's it. So everything she does is a commitment.

That's...not good.

Ness is better than Marth and Lucina easy. Pit is def better than Lucina. About equal to Marth. Honestly put her a tier below and be done with it. Pit and Dark Pit should always be where Marth is. They are legit.
 
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Ffamran

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May I ask why is bowser jr. that high on the list?
'Cause the Koopa Clown Car can fly like a helicopter. :p

Which list are we talking about? I don't usually go through all the pages so, I'm not updated.
 

Road Death Wheel

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@Ray_Kalm He's not mid tier. Though the Low tier to High tier gap is much smaller than it's ever been in any smash game.

There you go @ Road Death Wheel Road Death Wheel -_^b

Also I love heavies, but I love winning more.
i dont see how both cant be achieved. but regardless i will continue to dissagree for that tourny results speak more than theory craft. and we had ikes, ganons , dk, luigi, mario, ect all consistantly placing well and commonly compared to lucina , greninja, wario, bowser jr ect arent. are you simply seeing somthing hundreds of others arent?

ill yeaild is tou can show me any wiiu tournament footage of any of these characters. or at least 3ds 1.04

because so far there are a lot of blind assumtions otherwise.
 

Road Death Wheel

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i dont see how both cant be achieved. but regardless i will continue to dissagree for that tourny results speak more than theory craft. and we had ikes, ganons , dk, luigi, mario, ect all consistantly placing well and commonly compared to lucina , greninja, wario, bowser jr ect arent. are you simply seeing somthing hundreds of others arent?

ill yeaild is tou can show me any wiiu tournament footage of any of these characters. or at least 3ds 1.04

because so far there are a lot of blind assumtions otherwise.
edit @ Ffamran Ffamran go two pages back and look for Bonks tier list.

jeezus shaya just put a point on me i swaer i might not learn otherwise.
 
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A2ZOMG

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@Ray_Kalm He's not mid tier. Though the Low tier to High tier gap is much smaller than it's ever been in any smash game.

There you go @ Road Death Wheel Road Death Wheel -_^b

Also I love heavies, but I love winning more.
Ganondorf has been doing WELL in tournaments. Gungnir placed second in a 108 man tournament for instance. Hi-Hatz took first in some other tournament not long ago. Ray Kalm has also been doing work, taking first in doubles, third in singles in his most recent tournament.

Ganondorf has the tools to force a lot of people to be scared to attack him in neutral due to how fantastic his punishes are.

I watch Red-X's / Error 404's which I believe is better and has more tourney experience.

But yeah Ganon can kill early, Ganon can hit less and do more damage, but he had that in Brawl and it didn't mean much. Having a bad neutral game, bad mobility, a bad recovery, average range, and overall slower moves (frame wise) than the whole cast is just that much of a handicap for him. Anything Ganon can do there's a character that can do it better.

But if you don't believe he's a tier below everyone, where would you put him? Who is he better than?
Actually in Brawl, Ganondorf was not able to hit less and do more damage. Combo damage and universal damage per hit were actually a bigger deal in Brawl when average hit damage was closer to about 10-11% in Brawl, while in Smash 4 it's more like 8% and throw combos are a lot worse in Smash 4 universally. Shieldstun formula was also different and didn't favor Ganondorf in Brawl, while in Smash 4, Ganondorf actually has a few moves that are safe on block (N-air and F-air).

Ganondorf's Up-B gets okay distance, and he also no longer gets edgehogged in this game, and is heavier than he was previously. So unlike in Brawl, Smash 4 Ganon has great survivability in most matchups, and this means he gets to soak a lot of damage to benefit from Rage.

Also yeah, Ganondorf has bad mobility, and his recovery is still punishable. However he can kill most characters around 80% with aerial wizkick. Also while most of his moves are not persay directly safe in neutral, most characters don't want to challenge Ganondorf's attacks head on. This actually makes him better in neutral than you are suggesting, due to the risk versus the reward of options that Ganon's opponent has to keep him out. Most of the time you basically HAVE to block when Ganondorf is in range to Dash Attack and you don't have a super low commitment projectile. That by itself is really scary to deal with in neutral when you consider Ganon's DA is frame 10, does 14 damage, and puts him in an extremely good position for more followups.

Keeping in mind that Ganon's neutral is not actually that awful, it's more important to factor that Ganondorf has arguably the best positive state in the game. When Ganondorf has you in a bad position, you literally might die in two reads (Ganondorf puts you offstage, connects one more aerial while you are recovering, that is often literally a stock).

Ganondorf is a mid tier character with strengths that very viably can be used to make up for his weaknesses. He has enough tools to force people to be afraid of him in neutral, and when he does finally get in, stuff dies. And he's not nearly as easily killed in this game as he was previously.
 
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NairWizard

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incoming: letters

As for Ganondorf, Ike, and Charizard, I simply believe they are a tier worst than all the character's above them. Ganondorf is a tier worse than all those in Ike tier cause his range, mobility, combos, recovery is just that much worse. He's unfortunately too similar to his Brawl counterpart.
Your placements on Ganondorf and Ike seem misinformed if you are comparing them to their Brawl counterparts. You should read other parts of this thread (do a search for Ganondorf and for Ike) to see some of the thoughts on them. There's no sense in retreading old ground. You also have Falco in the game's bottom tier when his kill setups and damage output have been praised throughout this topic, and he's been lauded as one of the better characters in the game. It's fine that you wanted to post a tier list here, but if you're going to push your opinions you should at least revisit some of the topics that we've discussed up until this point imo. Not many will be willing to repeat old ideas like I am here with regard to Pikachu. I'll do it once, though, likely, since I'm sure people are tired of hearing about Pikachu after all the earlier discussions.

Not misconceptions, when I see Pikachu having trouble against Zelda then Pikachu is not a Top 5 character by any means. (And yes, he has trouble cause Zelda kills earlier).
Having a relatively even matchup among the lower tiers does not mean that you aren't a top 5 character. Even if Zelda > Pikachu in the head-to-head matchup (which she probably isn't), this doesn't imply that Diddy Kong > Pikachu on a tier list. It is just one part of an argument that could make such a claim.

Anyway, Zelda does have tools that work well vs. Pikachu. She gets out of traps and edgeguarding, and she can punish Quick Attack with up-b, but it isn't a difficult matchup for Pikachu by any means. What high-level Zeldas have we seen vs. high-level Pikachu? ESAM vs. Nairo? ESAM won that, and it wasn't even a tournament set. Nothing in that set suggested that Pikachu has difficulty beating Zelda. We generally saw ESAM up in Zelda's face, using his superior mobility and frame to get in more hits than Zelda was able to dish out in return. Zelda did get some quick kills with up-b, but Pikachu in this MU was just overall more consistently able to apply damage and net the KO (having good smashes isn't enough when you're facing a highly mobile character).

Pikachu's up-smash kills no-DI training-mode Zelda at 98% on FD (Pikachu at 98% too, so Rage applied), by the way. Zelda's f-smash kills about the same at center stage, 10-15% earlier on sides. Pikachu's f-smash kills at 110 center stage with the tip, and it's actually more disjointed than Zelda's own.

His edgeguarding is his only way to kill compared to Brawl. More characters kill more consistently earlier than Pikachu in this game. He really relies more so than ever that the opponent is using a character that doesn't get past Pika's edgeguarding easy.
f-smash, up-smash, onstage Thunder, and dash attack can all kill, but then I already covered that earlier.

Characters actually lost kill options in general, and the best kill moves in the game, such as Snake's up-tilt, Olimar's up-smash, Dedede's up-tilt and f-air, Fox's up-smash, Ice Climbers' death grab, etc. are all gone or nerfed. You have characters like Sheik and Diddy at the top instead. They can kill, but later than the Brawl top tiers. Ness' b-throw is the sore thumb.

He does lack range, so does Diddy
Diddy doesn't lack range. By that metric, everyone in the game lacks range besides sword characters and Rosalina. Fox, Sheik, Sonic, and even Ness who is often praised for his aerial range, have similar range to Diddy.

but Diddy's projectile and side b burst range allows him to overcome his lack of range.
Pikachu's projectile game is comparable to Diddy's. Tjolt creates opportunities to go in, whereas peanuts don't, though bananas are about the same: worse in some situations, better in others (bananas can be caught; tjolts heal Ness, etc.).

Side-b burst is met tit for tat with both f-air (which allows Pikachu to flatten himself into the ground when he lands with it, making him difficult to punish for using it on someone's shield, or even more in front of someone's shield since not hitting the shield is slightly better in this game) and also Pikachu's Quick Attack. Quick Attack is better both for getting out of traps and also for crossing up the opponent. You can react to Diddy's side-b with spotdodge; you can't react to Pikachu's cross-up up-b with anything short of a read.

Pikachu can force an approach but will have a much harder time against characters with more range at neutral than Diddy does cause of the reward Diddy gets off his hits. Diddy gets a lot more reward of his throws than Pikachu does, which makes up for the fact a character is out boxing him and outplaying him at neutral he'll get a lot more damage off his punishes. (He gets a lot more reward and has a lot more KO options than pikachu too. Sure Diddy is the best character right now for a reason, but you compared his range to Pikachu.
at low %s, some random values I accumulated over testing the other day:
Pikachu d-throw to n-air: ~15-18%
Pikachu d-throw to b-air: ~12-21% (character-size dependent, also depends on how many hits you can get in)
Pikachu's d-throw to up-air: ~13%
Pikachu's u-throw to Thunder: ~19%

Diddy d-throw to up-air: ~15%
Diddy d-throw to f-air: ~19%

Pikachu does 1% more damage on d-throw, and they have the same pummel damage (2%) and speed. Diddy's up-air does 1-2% more damage.
Diddy's b-throw does 1% more damage than Pikachu's, but Pikachu has better edgeguarding, and that's generally why you'd want to use b-throw anyway.
Pikachu's up-throw is the only one clearly worse (4% to 10%), but since it can lead into Thunder (reads at high %) and that can even kill, it's still dealing comparable damage (though you'd still use d-throw in other cases).

At higher percents, Diddy's throw followups are generally easier to land because up-air is very good, but Pikachu has more of them, so if you mix up his options he's just as likely to land something, and again, Pikachu's edgeguarding offstage is better than Diddy's, so Pikachu has the additional option of throwing his opponent offstage to rack up damage (this is even preferable at high percents, in fact). Pikachu has miscellaneous other options, too: Pikachu's drag-down f-air to d-smash does ~16%.

Pikachu is way better in disadvantage than Diddy due to up-b and a better recovery.
Pikachu and Diddy are comparable in advantage onstage. Offstage, Pikachu's edgeguarding > Diddy's by a mile.
Pikachu in neutral is comparable to Diddy. Diddy has better grab range, better f-air range, and a larger frame and less safe aerials other than u-air; also worse smashes: his f-smash and up-smash are clearly worse (Pikachu's f-smash being disjointed), and Pikachu's d-smash covers rolls much better than Diddy's, and is less immediately punishable since it's not front-then-back but just hits all around.

When it comes to netting the KO on other characters, Pikachu has up-smash to compete with Diddy's f-smash (I'd argue that Pika's up-smash is better, but more on that another time), and edgeguarding to compete with Diddy's up-air, and then on top of that Thunder and generally superior mobility and body size for sneaking in and getting a KO. Diddy is definitely better than Pikachu at scoring KOs because grab to up-air is still a very strong option as dash grabs have been buffed in this game, and whether or not Pikachu is better than Diddy overall is arguable, but at least this particular argument for it doesn't fly: the difference between them, if there is one and it isn't in Pikachu's favor, is fairly small. Whatever experience you've had dealing with Pikachus, you haven't been playing top-level ones if you think that he can't kill. Killing is not a concern for a seasoned Pikachu. It's a concern for a day-one Pikachu, yes.

Yeah they have similar range, yeah both their range sucks, no Pikachu doesn't have enough good traits to overcome it and be Top 5. Give me a more realistic tier placement please. I can see him as being higher, but he doesn't come close to the Top 10, at least not with what I've seen or experienced of the character.
You're going to have to explain your thoughts on this one. Saying that he relies on edgeguarding and that he lacks range isn't enough. You are challenging the status quo. Top players and most of the people in this thread have placed him in either top 5 or top 10. We've had multiple discussions about how good Pikachu is and it's been suggested numerous times that he's among the best characters in the game, possibly top 3 but more generally accepted as top 8-10. If you disagree with this position, the burden of proof is on you.

I believe games don't go to time yet because people are falling for gimmicks more. (Just like in early Brawl).
Already covered: if games go to time more, then Pikachu will win more than he does now. Lighter characters win more when games go to time because if they aren't losing their last stocks, then they will have less percent than their opponents just due to being lighter. After weight, the most important category is mobility for getting away once you have a percent lead. Which character is generally more mobile in Pikachu vs. X matchups? Not X, I can tell you that much.

In a timeout environment, Pikachu is among the best. However, I do believe that games will go less to time as the metagame evolves, not more, because people will become more certain of their options.
 
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Kofu

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Just a nitpick, SolidSense, rage isn't applied in training mode. Aerodrome confirmed this when testing weight rankings. Which means Pikachu's USmash is even stronger than you thought.
 

NairWizard

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Just a nitpick, SolidSense, rage isn't applied in training mode. Aerodrome confirmed this when testing weight rankings. Which means Pikachu's USmash is even stronger than you thought.
Useful information, but I wonder why they consistently make training mode so useless for testing.
 

TTTTTsd

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Adversely I think it's useful to not have RAGE. I wish it was TOGGLABLE in training to test non-rage AND rage kill percents.
This does make Dr. Mario's Up+B really SCARY
 

ParanoidDrone

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Useful information, but I wonder why they consistently make training mode so useless for testing.
Probably for consistency. Since setting the % affects both you and the dummy, they probably skipped the rage effect so that players wouldn't wonder why the move wasn't killing in a real match. (Because let's face it, is anyone going to complain if they kill their opponent earlier than expected? Sounds preferable to the reverse.)
 

NairWizard

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Probably for consistency. Since setting the % affects both you and the dummy, they probably skipped the rage effect so that players wouldn't wonder why the move wasn't killing in a real match. (Because let's face it, is anyone going to complain if they kill their opponent earlier than expected? Sounds preferable to the reverse.)
They could have just set a separate percent slider, though. :p
 

KlefkiHolder

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Just a nitpick, SolidSense, rage isn't applied in training mode. Aerodrome confirmed this when testing weight rankings. Which means Pikachu's USmash is even stronger than you thought.
Really?

I remember a while back when I was testing Rest percents I was getting Rage. Used heart containers to rid my health, got different percents depending on rage. Same for when I was testing a Zard Custom Up B.

This was on 3DS a while back, but rage was def there.
 
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B0NK

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@ B0NK B0NK
Well the OP clearly states to not post them here either.
Talk to @SamuraiPanda then. This is where he says to post them.

Bonk...thats alot of letters...like...wow

Main thing that hurts Lucina at high level is that her attacks leave her at more disadvantage than Marth. So her d-tilt trap is worse and she has like...one safe move on block which is fully spaced nair. I think that's it. So everything she does is a commitment.

That's...not good.

Ness is better than Marth and Lucina easy. Pit is def better than Lucina. About equal to Marth. Honestly put her a tier below and be done with it. Pit and Dark Pit should always be where Marth is. They are legit.
People keep posting more letters to me ;_;

And I can see this, thank you for giving me an idea of where you'd place them.


@ Road Death Wheel Road Death Wheel and @ A2ZOMG A2ZOMG : Alright, I respect those opinions. And I'll be keeping a closer eye on Ganon from here on out.

incoming: letters
o-oh...

Well I had Ike as the worst character pre-patch. And when I see Red-X's Ike losing to MikeKirby's Kirby in tourney I don't believe Ike is much better than where I placed him. I can see him and Ganon in G tier of my list, and not higher. I compare them to brawl since well... their neutral games are unchanged. Sure they're better than they were in Brawl but that's true for a lot of characters. They have the same fundamental weaknesses that kept them from being good characters in Brawl. Their placement where they are is because I believe that the characters above them are better than them.

Pikachu isn't unviable, Pikachu isn't even bad, but I do not believe he's a top 10 character like you claimed. All the characters in the same tier as him perform just as well in tournaments. I do not believe that Pikachu is that much better than the characters in the tier he's in. Thank you for all the useful Pikachu information in your summary and input on my tier list though.
So where on my list do you place Pikachu higher than? Now I'm just curious. It's clear we aren't going to agree today, but I'd like to keep Pikachu in mind the next time I edit my list.
 

NairWizard

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Talk to @SamuraiPanda then. This is where he says to post them.
I compare them to brawl since well... their neutral games are unchanged. Sure they're better than they were in Brawl but that's true for a lot of characters.
Their neutral games are much better, Ike's in particular. Most of his sword moves are safe on shield now. This was not the case in Brawl, where he would hit a shield and then get punished hard. The patch also made Ganon's aerials safer on shield, though Ganon still isn't as good in neutral as Ike.

Ike's bad state is disadvantage, not neutral. He gets juggled.

Pikachu isn't unviable, Pikachu isn't even bad, but I do not believe he's a top 10 character like you claimed. All the characters in the same tier as him perform just as well in tournaments.
If tournament performance is your primary reference point, then you should be looking to ESAM's Pikachu, who got 2nd at the day-one invitational, beating other top players like Zero and FOW to get there. Pikachu has always been a hard character to rank based on tournaments because ESAM is the only top player who actively plays him. Others in your tier like Jigglypuff and Zelda haven't gotten 1st at a big-name national/invitational like that yet (though I still believe in Jigglypuff).

Pikachu's biggest selling point is that he beats or goes even with most top tiers head to head. He has an arguably advantageous (and at worst even) matchup on Diddy, Rosalina, Ness, Fox, ZSS, and Sonic. Sheik vs. Pikachu is even, but may also be in Pikachu's favor because Pikachu has an easier time killing Sheik than vice-versa, mostly due to Pikachu's low profile and up-smash.

That's a pretty impressive list of advantages. I'd like to see a low tier character who matches such a list.

You're free to disagree, but your disagreement isn't an argument by itself. Just so we're clear, I'm totally willing to be persuaded by logical arguments or tournament evidence.
 
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RESET Vao

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Played offline a bit against a few folk today. Falcon's definitely better than what I thought he was, ZSS not as good as I thought she was.
 

B0NK

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Their neutral games are much better, Ike's in particular. Most of his sword moves are safe on shield now. This was not the case in Brawl, where he would hit a shield and then get punished hard. The patch also made Ganon's aerials safer on shield, though Ganon still isn't as good in neutral as Ike.

Ike's bad state is disadvantage, not neutral. He gets juggled.
This is wrong lol. Ike's aerials were safe in Brawl if spaced on shield (not against MK but lol) and they are still unsafe in Smash 4 when unspaced on shield. Ike's neutral game is stronger, but I wouldn't say "much better." Same for Ganon.

@Pikachu stuff: Yeah I feel it. I'll keep a better eye on Pika's match-ups.
 

Luco

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And I would highly contest that Ness is worse than Lucina, Marth or even someone like Wario on your list Bonk. His results suggest this heavily and his theory and MU spread also points closer towards B tier. Peeps over-exaggerate how bad the Rosaluma MU is but in reality it's not actually that crippling. He out-ranges like half the cast (I think he possibly outranges Diddy's Fair actually... lol) and has a ridiculous grab game that functions as both crazy combo material and one of the best kill moves in the game for his weight class.

Err, I won't go into wall-of-text stuff on this, most people acknowledge also that he's probably somewhere between #5 - #8 / #9 and IMO in your list he deserves to be next to Sonic/in B tier somewhere.
 

Ffamran

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I love how Falco's being consistently placed as low tier and treated as if he doesn't exist as anything, but an icon...

Seriously, Falco's at least a mid tier.
 
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NairWizard

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This is wrong lol. Ike's aerials were safe in Brawl if spaced on shield (not against MK but lol) and they are still unsafe in Smash 4 when unspaced on shield. Ike's neutral game is stronger, but I wouldn't say "much better."
They weren't safe against Snake, MK, Olimar, or Dedede. That's pretty much everyone important, except Ice Climbers. @san. can probably tell you better about Ike's aerial safety in Brawl compared to now. For comparisons of Brawl Ike -> smash 4 Ike, I defer to san's opinion.

But regardless now they are quite safe. Of course unspaced attacks are unsafe lol. That's true of everyone.

The patch did a lot. In the patch, Ike's b-air was buffed by 1-2%, which gives it enough shieldstun to make it unpunishable on shield.
F-air autocancels at full hop height; you can spam it and you won't get punished now.
F-tilt was buffed so that you can't punish it when it's maximally spaced.
D-tilt was made faster and is also now safe on shield.
Jab was made reliable, so it's been buffed as a CQC option (good since Ike needs it to prevent punishes on his other attacks).
Not sure if anything happened to n-air, as I didn't use Ike before the patch, but n-air is the only aerial that isn't safe on shield, I can tell you that much.
 
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Nabbitnator

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so how is peach f tier? (I don't see enough peach's to fully back anything up atm.) I just want to know why.
 

B0NK

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But regardless now they are quite safe. Of course unspaced attacks are unsafe lol. That's true of everyone.
Well, you implied that his aerials are that much safer compared to brawl and that changes everything for his neutral game.

Sorry, I disagree that they're that much safer than Brawl's and them being better in Smash 4 somehow makes his neutral game "much better."
 

Road Death Wheel

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its official dk is anti diddly.
will just beat m2k
m2k being the most dandeous diddy cuz of his grab reads.

dk anti diddy

revise the teir list this is a happy day.
 

Ffamran

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its official dk is anti diddly.
will just beat m2k
m2k being the most dandeous diddy cuz of his grab reads.

dk anti diddy

revise the teir list this is a happy day.
It makes sense since Diddy is DK's sidekick. So, care to explain why DK's is Diddy's counterpick?
 

B0NK

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so how is peach f tier? (I don't see enough peach's to fully back anything up atm.) I just want to know why.
I believe everyone I put above Peach is better than Peach is. I believe that everyone in her tier, F-tier, are just about as good as each other, better than the tiers they are above, and worst than the tiers they are below.

So why is Peach not much better than Kirby and DK? From what I've seen of Dark's Peach in comparison to MikeKirby's Kirby I believe they perform about the same in amount of good match ups, neutral game, and in tournaments. (Though Mike won a tourney and I don't believe a Peach has yet... Why is Peach as high as she is again? LOL).
 

Road Death Wheel

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It makes sense since Diddy is DK's sidekick. So, care to explain why DK's is Diddy's counterpick?
diddy cant corner camp or ledge play nearly as well when around a dk who knows his options.
the mu is realistically 40:60
nothing crazy.
dk has a super armor punish in up b scaring normal ledge get up being near leadges is a bad siruation due to dks down b sheild breaking potential. (it actually broke his shield one game.)
forcing diddy to take unnessesary damage as trade for no shield break. making dk in advantage when diddy is just at low shield. just cause you litterally taken away the single most important tool in smash 4 and turning it into a defecit.
it was magical.
 
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Nabbitnator

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Wait peach and Kirby perform just about the same in tournaments and in match ups?
 
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