Character Competitive Impressions

[Berserker.]

last time i reacall bair uair and nair all have very little lag

Nair has 22 frames of landing lag
Bair has 25 frames of landing lag
Uair has 22 frames of landing lag

 

[Thinkaman]

Though bair and uair both SH AC...

 

[Luigi player]

So about that weegee... the hype about him will come soon, I guess. People need to be aware of the goodness of that character.

 

[Ffamran]

Idk if it's me or I've just never faced a good falco. I feel that he's a worst little Mac with a unreliable projectile. The lag on his laser is just too much and his air mobility and lag on his aerials make them almost unusable. His airgame doesn't redeem it imo. Sword fighter is the worst but I think he's a close second.

Falco's has two aerials that have noticeable landing lag: Dair which as everyone noticed and complained about and Fair which sort of hits when Falco lands and pushes back enough for Falco to have some breathing room. Nair is almost instant while Uair has little landing lag and I think Bair has okay ending lag. In terms of aerial ending lag: Dair has the most while the others are all right. In terms of start-up: Dair has the most, Fair has some, but it compensates by having high priority, and the others have little to none.

Bair kills early when sweet-spotted along with Fair killing decently. Nair can kill, but it's really unreliable since it doesn't have a vacuum effect like Fair so, it's more like an approach. @Jtails mentions using Nair, Up tilt, and whatever else like an Uair. Dair can be used, but it's really situational and you have to make a good read or else. Uair combos and can potentially kill when sweet-spotted, but much later.

Ground game-wise, Falco has good of spacing tools: Side tilt, Reflector, Blaster - patch 1.04 made it less worse. Side tilt has range, comes out fast, and has enough knockback to give Falco a breather. Reflector has more range and comes out faster, but it's dangerous if you miss, it's shielded, or dodged. It can work into a combo. Something like D-throw, dash attack, Fair, and Reflector? There's this really long combo that someone here knows. @ Shaya ? Now, Blaster has more range, but the end lag is atrocious which defies common sense since it's just put the damn thing into the holster, Falco! Anyway, I think you can F-throw and get 3 shots since his Blaster can "lock" people for 3 shots.

Jab combo is strong, but there's an issue where basically everyone can DI out of it or "mash out" it - I don't know what that means. Up tilt is more of a combo or a launcher so, you can sort of do Mario's multiple Up tilt at lower percentages or Up tilt, Uair or Fair or even Bair. Down tilt is another launcher, but it's much more stronger than Up tilt and can reliably kill funny enough. It's fast, but its range is sort of weird - I'm blaming lag.

Smashes. Well, you have your trusty Side Smash which is a bit slower, but covers Falco's front and head and has some range. Make a good read, and boom, kill. Up Smash is more or less Up tilt, but stronger, and only has two hits. It won't cover Falco's back entirely, so be careful and don't try it on small fighters like Pikachu, especially if they're crouching. It'll kill later on, but it's a good combo setup. Down Smash kills fairly, covers Falco's sides, and comes out fast so, it can work as a powerful spacing tool or a quick mid-kill move.

The other Specials: Fire Bird and Falco Phantasm. Well, Fire Bird's a recovery move... I don't know what else you could do aside from a good read and some free damage so, you'll have to ask someone else. Falco Phantasm's spike makes it superior to Fox Illusion. Why? Throw, short hop, Falco Phantasm Spike, and then a recovery. It's not a true combo, but if you make a good read, then it's a free stock.

Thank @Bonk!

For throws, D-throw is a combo setup and sort of F-throw. U-throw is really mentioned much, but I think someone, maybe Jtails? said to U-throw and Nair, Uair, or Fair. B-throw is really weird in that the laser has a ton of knockback at higher percents where it will automatically kill since the opponent will likely be offstage while the laser pushes them even further.

I think the issue with Falco is that when you're playing as him online, he's severely affected by lag. I think his moves are timed harshly for whatever reason or because his moves has enough start up that input lag basically kills any chance of playing as Falco. Whenever I'm on the practice/waiting stage or playing offline, I notice that Falco's much more fluid to control than online.

Anyway, SSB4 Falco is more of a CQC character compared to Melee and Brawl Falco. He's not a rushdown character, but sort of one who punishes, zones, and pressures. Falco has a strong ground game - spacing and combo setups - and a strong air game, especially with how ludicrous when his Bair can kill, Fair's damage, Uair's combo ability, and Nair's safe approach. So, I believe that Falco's a solid character. He's not bad, but he's not amazing. Just a solid bread-bird.

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah, this Falco in Bottom Tier/Low Tier stuff has really got to go. Agree with post above.

Even though I agree that Mid Tier is getting increasingly crowded, I don't believe that there is a Low Tier in this game. Everyone seems useful in at least some matchups.

Just giving everyone a solid Jab and a solid Dash Attack has done wonders for the cast. Jab and dash are two of your most important tools (CQC and punish, respectively) as a character in this game.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

ehhhhhhhhh

I disagree. I think some characters are gonna be occupying the bottom of the totem pole once things get sorted out. The only question on my mind is who.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ParanoidDrone]

ehhhhhhhhh

I disagree. I think some characters are gonna be occupying the bottom of the totem pole once things get sorted out. The only question in my mind is who.

Smooth Criminal

Isn't that a given? In any sorted list, something's on the top and something's on the bottom.

The hope is that everything's still close enough to be not worthless.

 

[NairWizard]

Isn't that a given? In any sorted list, something's on the top and something's on the bottom.

The hope is that everything's still close enough to be not worthless.

Yeah, the gaps are what matter, not the positions.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, the gaps are what matter, not the positions.

This is why I dislike arbitrary groupings and ratings/labels, like C/D/E tier.

They leave the size of the gap to the reader's imagination, and thus at best communicate nothing, and at worst communicate incorrectly.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The hope is that everything's still close enough to be not worthless.

Therein lies the rub.

Smooth Criminal

 

[LonkQ]

Though bair and uair both SH AC...

They do? I've been trying it out forever in training mode and it doesn't seem to work, although Dair and Nair do.

 

[Thinkaman]

They do? I've been trying it out forever in training mode and it doesn't seem to work, although Dair and Nair do.

Hm? We are talking about Falco, yes? Both his bair and uair easily auto-cancel out of short hop. Nair and dair (as well as fair) cannot.

 

[LonkQ]

Hm? We are talking about Falco, yes? Both his bair and uair easily auto-cancel out of short hop. Nair and dair (as well as fair) cannot.

I thought it was referring to Zelda, since Falco has 15 frames of landing lag on most of his aerials.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nair has 22 frames of landing lag
Bair has 25 frames of landing lag
Uair has 22 frames of landing lag

Again, are we talking about Falco? Nair is 15, bair is 15, uair is 15.
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/

Ninja'd. I am assuming RDW was talking about Falco and berserker was talking about Zelda.

 

[Gunla]

Therein lies the rub.

Smooth Criminal

To sleep, to dream...
Dreaming referring to that there's a few characters potentially being slept upon. I wouldn't be surprised.

The hope is that everything's still close enough to be not worthless.

I think that every (or most, at the very least) character as some worth to it and can work in the right hamd, but there's always those widely seen characters for their abilities.

Regarding Falco, he gives the middle tier vibe to me. He feels like a decently sized threat, but just smack dab in the middle of the pack from my experiences with and against Falco in this game.

 

[Berserker.]

Again, are we talking about Falco? Nair is 15, bair is 15, uair is 15.
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/

Ninja'd. I am assuming RDW was talking about Falco and berserker was talking about Zelda.

Oh my bad. I was talking about Zelda

 

[Nairo]

I personally dont think zelda is bottom tier some of those things listed by peaches are true but think of it.
-zeldas uptilt in brawl landing was near nonexistent it being faster and being a combo starter makes it more useful
-nair doing less % is a nerf there but its still a good move to use
-upair isnt as strong anymore but still can kill/deal nice % if landed
-zeldas upsmash i cant even defend that move is complete ass now lmao
-il take dins fire having more kill power with less distance than in brawl
-yea bair/fair being laggier sucks however baiting out airdodges to the floor make it slightly easier to land IMO but yea if it was lagless then that would of been hype

I dont think theres anybody thats bottom tier yet too soon to tell lol but yea I dont think zeldas like top tier or anything of course she aint that bad though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

zelda has issues but she sure as heck has not been nerfed. down tilt hitting through the stage anyone?

that happened in brawl

If people think Zelda isn't the worst character in this game, then I will pray for them.

Though bair and uair both SH AC...

uair does not, bair does not. None of her aerials save nair and dair autocancel. Edit: nvm you were talking about Falco IGNORE THIS LOL

There are significantly more nerfs to her moveset than people are letting on.

I have the data to back me up.

You cannot argue with me about this.

I am more than happy to detail all the nerfs and buffs she received in this thread if it is needed. But I can summarize it in a few words:

Every move was nerfed in KO potential and put into Up B, most moves now do significantly less damage, most moves have less range and are more unreliable than Brawl.

PLEASE let that sink in.

 

[Berserker.]

uair does not, bair does not. None of her aerials save nair and dair autocancel.

There are significantly more nerfs to her moveset than people are letting on.

I have the data to back me up.

You cannot argue with me about this.

I am more than happy to detail all the nerfs and buffs she received in this thread if it is needed. But I can summarize it in a few words:

Every move was nerfed in KO potential and put into Up B, most moves now do significantly less damage, most moves have less range and are more unreliable than Brawl.

PLEASE let that sink in.

He was talking about Falco

 

[NairWizard]

I'm so confused as to who's talking about what. Arggggh

 

[KuroganeHammer]

idk why he was talking about falco considering lord roadkillington was talking about zelderp before lol

 

[Ffamran]

He was talking about Falco

We're finally talking about Falco! *evil snickers* Finally, my plan has come to fruit- *stares wildly* I just said that out loud didn't I?

LOOK! A DISTRACTION! *skitters away*

 

[Berserker.]

Can we just talk about Zelda instead? I'm losing my head at the moment from this

 

[Ffamran]

Can we just talk about Zelda instead? I'm losing my head at the moment from this

Sure...

Falco never gets long talks... It's usually me making long-winded explanations to defend the bread-bird.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

idk why he was talking about falco considering lord roadkillington was talking about zelderp before lol

>.< srry i mean no harm.

 

[suarsuar]

He was talking about Falco

 

[AvariceX]

So was everyone watching The Come Up? Lots of doom and gloom about Diddy Kong around here and grand finals was Mario/Shulk vs Donkey Kong, and M2K's Diddy was present. I'm not one to say a character is only as good as their results (since that is not true), but it's certainly premature to worry about any character being broken.

Spoiler

but Mario is totally bottom 5 guys

Pretty good character variety at the tourney too outside of the army of Sheiks and Diddys.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Seeing as @B0NK was manly enough to post his tier list, I decided to post my first few months impressions of what a tier list should/would look like if it was released right now.

Spoiler

S Tier:

A Tier:


B Tier:


C Tier:


D Tier:


E Tier:

Hyrule Tier:

Please don't kill me. I'd like some input that isn't "MY FAVOURITE CHARACTER ISNT IN THAT POSITION".

I am fairly certain S to C tier is fairly accurate. Less certain about D tier. I have a lot of people telling me Bowser Jr. is really good for example.

People are welcome to ask what my thoughts are of a characters perceived strengths and weaknesses too.

 

[Tagxy]

Eh, I just think that type of discussion just isnt interesting. Like what am I supposed to say? Sheik seems to be in an accurate spot? Pikachu is super underrated and should be at least A tier? Lucario is overrated and should be knocked down at least at tier? Its even harder when people are so certain about their lists.

Regarding Zelda, I think one thing people dont fully consider is how characters transfer between game engines and based on character viability. In melee pikachu is a solid mid-tier, in PM pikachu whos essentially the same character with a few "buffs" is pretty bad and the game is intentionally made to emulate melee.

 

[NairWizard]

Please don't kill me. I'd like some input that isn't "MY FAVOURITE CHARACTER ISNT IN THAT POSITION".

I don't know what else you expect to get besides this though, because people are most experienced with their favorite characters and watch more matchups involving their favorite characters than anything else.

For instance Pikachu's placing is the first thing that jumps out at me from your tier list, mostly because I'm so familiar with Pikachu that I know his damage %s and so on and things instantly jump out at me about his placing, such as "How is Mario better when Pikachu does more damage, has faster tilts with more range, has a better recovery," etc. People are generally going to fixate on these perceived flaws in a tier list rather than give any meaningful feedback.

I don't personally think that tier lists have any value at all (or very little), but your mileage may vary and I won't try to stop you or anything (just throwing in my two cents), so here's hoping you do actually get some interesting responses.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

watched pieces of the come up from york library given its exam time @ york. On the bright side I got a lot of material down QQ. Too bad Ive got more exam prep and exams today & tuesday...so time for rest.
Tuned in for Shulk ditto and was hyped but those melee screams.

Seems to be a divide of shulk is bad and shulk is good.

aero to be honest your list contrasts some pop opinions well enough that you may as well leave an explaining caption on nearly everyone. There really isnt much to go off given how...different it is from the norm. Like a previous list Im more interested in why people think the way they do then the actual positions.

For instance hyrule tier indicates a very poor opinion of those 3. You could explain them in particular. Link also recieves ocassional praise but you dont see him in that light.

 

[Icylobster]

The thing with these tier list that I don't like is the fact that people keep making so many splits in categor (S, A, B, C, D, E, F... etc). I think that their are less tiers due to the fact that the game is pretty solid balance wise. As mentioned by AvariceX, The Come Up tournament is beginning to show how overrated the top tier is. In the top 4 of the tournament there wasn't even a Diddy, Shiek, or Rosalina.

I actually really like tier lists because I think they are fun, but people put too much weight in them. Eventually I think the meta will solidify much more, but it will be at least 6 months.

 

[Kofu]

Aerodrome, I applaud you for putting Mega Man as high as you did; most people put him noticeably lower when I think he's solidly high tier. Not that he's absolutely dominating in general, but his projectile game probably shuts down more characters than anyone else can.

Also, what Zelda game was Wii Fit Trainer in? I must have missed that one.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Seeing as @B0NK was manly enough to post his tier list, I decided to post my first few months impressions of what a tier list should/would look like if it was released right now.

Spoiler

S Tier:

A Tier:


B Tier:


C Tier:


D Tier:


E Tier:

Hyrule Tier:

Please don't kill me. I'd like some input that isn't "MY FAVOURITE CHARACTER ISNT IN THAT POSITION".

I am fairly certain S to C tier is fairly accurate. Less certain about D tier. I have a lot of people telling me Bowser Jr. is really good for example.

People are welcome to ask what my thoughts are of a characters perceived strengths and weaknesses too.

hissss snarl *rapid breathing* you...you misunderstand master. It is you who has made the misconception. And for that you will die! *snarl choaking sound and other disturbing mouth noises*

 

[HeavyLobster]

Here is the one true tier list.

Spoiler

Top Tier :
High Tier:
Mid Tier:
Low Tier: The corpses of all who dared to defy the King of Evil. All who disagree with this list will be sent here.

(Honestly I have no idea about tiers except maybe for a few of the obvious ones. There's a few really good characters at the top, a bunch of kind of good characters in the middle, and a few not as good but still not that bad characters at the bottom.)

 

[BSP]

Seeing as @B0NK was manly enough to post his tier list, I decided to post my first few months impressions of what a tier list should/would look like if it was released right now.

Spoiler

S Tier:

A Tier:


B Tier:


C Tier:


D Tier:


E Tier:

Hyrule Tier:

Please don't kill me. I'd like some input that isn't "MY FAVOURITE CHARACTER ISNT IN THAT POSITION".

I am fairly certain S to C tier is fairly accurate. Less certain about D tier. I have a lot of people telling me Bowser Jr. is really good for example.

People are welcome to ask what my thoughts are of a characters perceived strengths and weaknesses too.

Your placement of Pac-Man is where I think he belongs. Maybe not exactly there, but right outside of the top tier(s) is accurate IMO.

Mario is not a better character than Marth. I'm curious about that placement. I'd switch the two. What are your thoughts on that?

Luigi...have you seen what Luigi has been doing lately? He's better than Mario for sure. Luigi is a force to be reckoned with once he is in your face.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Your placement of Pac-Man is where I think he belongs. Maybe not exactly there, but right outside of the top tier(s) is accurate IMO.

Mario is not a better character than Marth. I'm curious about that placement. I'd switch the two. What are your thoughts on that?

Luigi...have you seen what Luigi has been doing lately? He's better than Mario for sure. Luigi is a force to be reckoned with once he is in your face.

i dunno allys mario is a spectical

 

[KuroganeHammer]

For instance hyrule tier indicates a very poor opinion of those 3. You could explain them in particular. Link also recieves ocassional praise but you dont see him in that light.

That's because those three are just not very good. There's just a myriad of problems they have:

Wii Fat Trainer suffers from extremely poor range, incredibly slow KO options, while her strengths are honestly gimmicks, being her jab bury and self heal being the main ones. Solid KO percents on forward smash but that move is terribly slow that you can't even get it off from jab bury. Decent camp game but not enough to save her from the depths of bottom tier.

Ganondorf, see Brawl Ganondorf really, lacks approach options, easily camped, extremely slow (movement and attack speed wise!), but at least pretty much every move is a KO move.

Zelda, again, see Brawl Zelda, which is basically Brawl Ganondorf: Can't approach, can't force an approach, can't KO reliably unless the opponent commits to something from a teleport distance away, weak aerial game aside from neutral air, up and forward smash are unreliable (people pop out of them for no reason even more frequently than Brawl), mediocre damage racking options but on the plus side her throws have been improved immensely, what a shame her grab is like, 12 frames when everyone elses is frame 7.

Aerodrome, I applaud you for putting Mega Man as high as you did; most people put him noticeably lower when I think he's solidly high tier. Not that he's absolutely dominating in general, but his projectile game probably shuts down more characters than anyone else can.

Also, what Zelda game was Wii Fit Trainer in? I must have missed that one.

Absolutely, Megaman is incredibly strange, I thought he was terrible at first but his pros far outweigh his cons:

Megaman can attack from mid range with safety because he has basically one of (the?) best jab/forward tilt's in the game.
Lemons are incredibly disruptive to approaches
Leaf Shield is literally absurd, that move is crazy good at disrupting people who approach, if it hits anyone, it's also a free grab.
Massive grab range, decently fast grab, incredibly strong back throw for some reason
Uair exists, if the opponent jumps, they die for whatever reason.
Ungimpable, for those who don't know, Megaman gets to jump out of Rush Coil, also if you meteor him, he just bounces off Rush on his way down
Dair is an incredible move, massive range, fairly fast, strong meteor even at lower percents

His only weaknesses imo are that pretty much his entire moveset is absorbable by Ness, and Reflectors when used very well screw him over, but he does have enough tools to deal with people with reflectors anyway so

Also his kill moves, while reliable, are incredibly unsafe on whiff.

Your placement of Pac-Man is where I think he belongs. Maybe not exactly there, but right outside of the top tier(s) is accurate IMO.

Mario is not a better character than Marth. I'm curious about that placement. I'd switch the two. What are your thoughts on that?

Luigi...have you seen what Luigi has been doing lately? He's better than Mario for sure. Luigi is a force to be reckoned with once he is in your face.

Currently no one has done anything with Marth or Lucina (yet), although I would probably agree. Marth and Lucina are still basically Marth. I don't think Marth will ever be bad unless they take away his sword.

Luigi I have seen the good things being done with him, I just don't want to jump on the Luigi hype train JUST yet. There seems to be a general consensus that Luigi is better than Mario, would you agree with that?


Edit: I forgot to mention that Megaman is UNKILLABLE, that's a fairly big one.

 

[Luco]

Unfortunately, even though half of his moveset is absorbable by us, doesn't make him a very easy MU. I think it's in our favour but not by much; and not because we absorb stuff. His sideB and neutral B mixups are just too much for us to be like "yep okay healing 10% over here" which is a bit sad haha. One of the few characters who's camping game is barely mitigated at all by magnet + bat. =P

 

[DanGR]

There exists the trend of Rosalina being 3rd on peoples' tier lists behind Diddy/Sheik, even though she loses solidly to virtually every fast character with a decent grab game. Not only this but the anti-Luma metagame is progressing increasingly more quickly every week since the Wii-U's release. Her lack of either a decent combo breaker or mobility option to get away from juggling + her floatyness + her weakness to Luma dying make for a volatile character in a tournament setting. As it stands now, her polarizing matchup spread against everyone who isn't fast makes her 7th on my list, right behind Sonic.