Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

If Zards worst in the game im quitting.
Too much balance.
I buy that Kirby analysis before Zard.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ganondorf's own merits seem to have somewhat got worse since Brawl. No thunderstorming and Side B can just be slapped about, however the engine of the game (strings, followups and fear of so, longer recovery on many aerials and airdodge not being a get out of jail free card) have made him overall a better character.

He still has some pretty dope matchups. I really hate the Sonic matchup (which I also hated in Brawl) and Rosalina MU annoys me too. Diddy is more do-able in this game, he's had similar treatment to Ganon where his own merits have been toned down but the play of the game and status of other characters has made him slightly better overall, 2 bananas was much harder to deal with.

Will he above the bottom of the list? I'm not sure. I honestly don't think so.

Not really.

Ganon is way better than where he is on the Japanese tier list. Customs legal just makes him better in every way.

I wouldn't call him top tier at all but he is far far better than his Brawl counterpart. His KO power is now a lot more threatening, his low lag on aerials and moves is something he definitely benefits from with last patch.

He's always gonna be that hard to get in but wrecks your **** when he does kind of character. But he does it far better in this game.

Edit: Zard isn't garbage either, o still think he is at least mid tier. Like, even from a perspective as Lucario he is scary off his sheer wins on trades where he outright kills you while having one of not the best horizontal recovery I the game, whole also being one of the best long range punishes in the game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If Zards worst in the game im quitting.
Too much balance.
I buy that Kirby analysis before Zard.

Kirby analysis?

Sounds intriguing.

And Charizard is actually kind of hard to Gimp. The combination of Flare Blitz, Rock Smash and most importantly Fly and three mid air jumps gives him a ton of recovery options that are hard to stop.

Even then, you can stop one, but Zard can combine the tools effectively.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Gimping Zard is easier if he is lower stage wise, if he is above stage level...yeah with flare blitz good luck unless you can punish it right away.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yet fly has Super Armor. So the area at which you can safely contest is pretty small unless your fast enough to interrupt Blitz, which only a handful of characters can actually do.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Like, I'll say this much.

If you think Zard is bad, he is not worse than Mii Swordsman. I'm 110% confident in that.

 

[Tagxy]

Charizard seems pretty good

No one is saying that you can't play around it. The point is Diddy's dtilt is the best tool between the two of them in close-range footsies. It's fast, outranges all of Pikachu's grounded options, can't be shieldgrabbed if spaced properly and has good reward on hit. Pikachu can play around it, but Diddy is equally if not more capable of outplaying Pikachu in that situation due to having the superior options in that scenario.

Its hard to say but Pikachu potentially beats diddy in neutral on the ground. I wouldnt say he loses on the ground atm. Dtilt isnt really the tool youd use here to discuss a strong ground game since it loses outright to SH dair and perhaps other things, if anything his banana would be what makes his ground game difficult. Otherwise pikachu and diddy can space with dtilt in similar ways (same distance), but pikachu has better burst movement and a better SH aerial game in the head to head (pikachu can hit a grounded diddy with all of his aerials, the only aerial diddy can hit with is a close range uair).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They think he's Flare Blitz and Rock Smash, nothing else.

More people jumped in on Facebook.

This is exactly their mindset.

Why is this a thing?

This is a terrible thing.

EDIT: Now they're saying his recovery is bad.

I'm done.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Kirby analysis?

Eh I should really say perspective.
Kirby discussion:

Spoiler

Kirby is imo the worst in the game. Suffers like a heavyweight trying to get in, doesn't even get the same reward outside of low percent combos. No real zoning, little nuetral options and approaches, abysmal range. If anything I'd move Samus up to the 8th tier before moving anyone else next to kirby.

Hmm. The way I see it, Kirby has less struggles to most of the higher cast then heavies. Given that Range is to a point relative, and while his range again is poor, this can be less true against certain cast members.
For instance his Range relative to Pikachu is acceptable, as it is Fox, and even Sheik. Those cast members also are not going to kill him in 4 reads in spite of his low Weight like a Marth Tipper or heavy will. I take the perspective that so long as the upper ring isn't filled with high killing or the range that truly bars him out, he'd be comfortable in that meta. Where as if the game is Pit,Shulk,Marth, Ganon. He gets walled out or dies in 3 reads and will struggle to be relevant as a result. Mind that Kirbys slowest tilt is frame 5. Kirby also having the lowest overall landing lag in the game after ZSS/WFT had their airdodges normalized + a decent pummel (but poor throw follow ups).

This isn't to shake your resolve only to indicate what Kirby is bringing over Heavies in general when he does get in.
Stronger pummels, faster start-up, less landing lag (which helps given his fast start-up on tilts/jab upon landing) and off-stage flexibility that they as a whole do not have. So when he does get in, he can opt for a chase off-the ledge that they cannot.
If inhale wasn't so heinously impractical this would probably be clearer for him as when we bring in MU's. Luma Shot beats out Rosa's luma shot. Kirbys needles are better then Sheiks, in general he often uses the stolen projectile better then the original. Despite Shulk ranging him out, Kirby again has better frame data and if he was to obtain inhale, would also have the speed to capitalize to make that more pronounced. Air Slash is also Stone bait. A shame that inhale is pretty garbage right now, + issues of getting hit out of copy with a d-air. Doesn't help that Speed Shulks walk speed is equivalent to default Kirbys Dash though.
Kirbys lack of range to me says his difficulty in neutral which is obviously bad, but not heinous given
a) the general range of many other weaponless fighters allowing him to play in the sandbox with them
b) his size which does make some options less usable
c) his weight, which prevents him from being chained as easily by general top tiers.
d) the presence of aerial footsies, that few other characters really do on a level that he and some others can.
e) Off-stage safety via his recovery flexibility, and off-stage chase as a result.

Again presuming the situation of the perceived top. Kirby should be fine because they generally don't exploit him in the way the rest of the cast can. To me overall Kirby improved from brawl outside of his throws, which leaves him basically the same. Which will obviously excuse him from being a standout character, but it is interesting to nurse the idea of him being the worst in the roster.

Tl;dr: I'll consider the idea of Kirby being the worst, though I do not agree, it's interesting. As for Zard being the worst well I haven't heard a good case for it.

 

[Lavani]

Re: Charizard

I think there's a lot about the character that isn't immediately obvious to those unfamiliar with him. His wings and tail not having hurtboxes tied to them both mean he's smaller than he looks, and ftilt/utilt/usmash/nair/bair have healthy disjoints as a result. Fsmash is fully invuln during its active frames and all B moves aside from neutralB both have super armor and are extremely rewarding on hit (how is it that I never see anyone talking up Fly OoS?). Despite its rather laggy looking animation, dtilt has very early IASA, making it a surprisingly fast and rewarding poke. Unlike other heavyweights, his move speed is actually incredibly fast too (#8 run speed). Oh, and let's not forget he has a kill throw. And a massive grab range.

As a Dedede main looking at Charizard, I feel like I have a lot to be jealous about. I'm not really sure that he's an amazing character, but "worst in the game" is laughable.

 

[Scorpy571]

So you think it's just general ignorance? Like Ike and Shulk before.

Well maybe that but as for myself, I don't think he has anything amazing. Does he suck? No, he can actually be devastating with good spacing and reads but that's about it.

I played a good Zard yesterday that completly shutted my Falcon out by playing super defensive and always being at a threatening range for a neutral B or tilts. I kept trying rushing him when he had me figured out and since Zard hits pretty hard, all of my errors were punished HARD. That being said, I then switched to Mario and played defensive to. I forced him to aproach because fireballs all day and he doesn't have a long range projectile to answer back. This is where I think Zard falls apart. You force him too move and he doesn't have many options to get in. You zone him out, play safe and beat him at his own game(Punishing). Now that's just how I see it, there might be something hidden in him that might take us all by surprise in the future but as of right now, I don't see it.

But I would still not say he sucks tho. <3

 

[Pazzo.]

Played my brother who mains Shulk today.

I'm not sure the full effects of the buffs that he got, but Shulk is a no-nonsense fighter now on FD. Playing as Robin, I had no close combat options other than grabbing. I won only one match by properly spacing Thoron on FD.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well maybe that but as for myself, I don't think he has anything amazing. Does he suck? No, he can actually be devastating with good spacing and reads but that's about it.

I played a good Zard yesterday that completly shutted my Falcon out by playing super defensive and always being at a threatening range for a neutral B or tilts. I kept trying rushing him when he had me figured out and since Zard hits pretty hard, all of my errors were punished HARD. That being said, I then switched to Mario and played defensive to. I forced him to aproach because fireballs all day and he doesn't have a long range projectile to answer back. This is where I think Zard falls apart. You force him too move and he doesn't have many options to get in. You zone him out, play safe and beat him at his own game(Punishing). Now that's just how I see it, there might be something hidden in him that might take us all by surprise in the future but as of right now, I don't see it.

But I would still not say he sucks tho. <3

This is Zards's real weakness. Approaching. If he can get in, he can generally stay in and surprise people with his mobility. But getting in is hard...

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Can someone talk about Dragon Rush and how it aids Zard, especially in his approach?

I don't know quite how to state it...

 

[Scorpy571]

This is Zards's real weakness. Approaching. If he can get in, he can generally stay in and surprise people with his mobility. But getting in is hard...

That is true, a good Zard that sticks to you and reads you like a book is really scary. You done goofed when you die early from a fSmash. Also dat nAir hits from everywhere.. AH! xD

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can someone talk about Dragon Rush and how it aids Zard, especially in his approach?

I don't know quite how to state it...

It's a lot more safe might even be safe on block, in exchange for damage.

And people wonder why it got nerfed.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

alright time for some mii sword fighter talk.
so iv been hearing hes the worst. really?
i was labbing him today and it seems like hes only crap when u run the general small thin/ small fat set. max height does wonders on this guy. yeah there is the laggy trade off. but his range allows much more effective punishes.
plus the extra killing power does not hurt.

being able to effectivly shark with up tilt in battle field opens up more safe assault.
down tilt is marth level. with the extra range up air is only a stronger arial kill option.

neutral b is the tornado thing. use full for interuptions and wind boxes them straight up if it hits putting u in a great advantagous state to use up air for damage or kill.
side b air assault or whatever its called its good for reads but mostly just a strong recovery option
it goes really far.
up b is the skyward slash basic utility like fire fox. gets the job done.
down b is the one that acts like ganons down b. its a bit faster punishes rolls and can even string into jab at the right percents.

but honestly i cant stress how much the extra range helps. the sword gets really long.
it allows him to play the spacing game with all his tilts.

my set is max height max fat because i like heavys as my preference and the more kill power the better. with f smash killing really early.

hope i can change some peoples mind about him.
it was like a different character compared to the small thin build.

but unlike the small ones it shares more weakness with the heavys yu are going to have to be wary of when ur vulnearable. not to say u get juggled easily cuz u really dont. but you able to get punished if you dont take spacing into account. up air still has very little lag down airs got a strond wind box if ur max heavy. stronger than toon links i think.
but overall there probably going to be the most different to play meaning if u liked the other two miis playstyle u wont like this one.
lets say if u like ike. ull like sf mii.

also chakrams is reall good to. but i needed recovery over range attacks and the tornado thing does the job. ad puts them at and extreame disadvantage.

 

[NairWizard]

Re: Charizard

I think there's a lot about the character that isn't immediately obvious to those unfamiliar with him. His wings and tail not having hurtboxes tied to them both mean he's smaller than he looks, and ftilt/utilt/usmash/nair/bair have healthy disjoints as a result. Fsmash is fully invuln during its active frames and all B moves aside from neutralB both have super armor and are extremely rewarding on hit (how is it that I never see anyone talking up Fly OoS?). Despite its rather laggy looking animation, dtilt has very early IASA, making it a surprisingly fast and rewarding poke. Unlike other heavyweights, his move speed is actually incredibly fast too (#8 run speed). Oh, and let's not forget he has a kill throw. And a massive grab range.

As a Dedede main looking at Charizard, I feel like I have a lot to be jealous about. I'm not really sure that he's an amazing character, but "worst in the game" is laughable.

His wings and tail not having hurtboxes tied to them both mean he's smaller than he looks

His wings and tail not having hurtboxes tied to them

wings and tail not having hurtboxes

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Whoa.

Whoa.

How did I not know this was a thing.

This changes everything.

 

[san.]

It's like 1/3 of the tail and 1/2 the wing you can't hit to me.

 

[Shaya]

All of Sonic's spikes on his head aren't either, making his landing animation on most of his moves almost invincible as he tucks his head/body in significantly.

 

[NairWizard]

It's like 1/3 of the tail and 1/2 the wing you can't hit to me.

Oh, really? That's less exciting than I thought. If it were the whole thing that would make Charizard surprisingly small--like Ike-sized.

 

[Ffamran]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Whoa.

Whoa.

How did I not know this was a thing.

This changes everything.

It's one of the tips that's shown during loading screen. I've seen it frequently... How did you miss it?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's one of the tips that's shown during loading screen. I've seen it frequently... How did you miss it?

If it's the tip I'm thinking of, it specifies that his wings can't be hit during up tilt, which is a semi-common property during some attacks (Mario's usmash, Jigglypuff's dsmash). I figured it was more of the same.

 

[Ffamran]

If it's the tip I'm thinking of, it specifies that his wings can't be hit during up tilt, which is a semi-common property during some attacks (Mario's usmash, Jigglypuff's dsmash). I figured it was more of the same.

Yeah, but it does imply that Charizard's wings are more or less "invincible" like Bowser's legs or arms during attacks.

 

[Lavani]

It's like 1/3 of the tail and 1/2 the wing you can't hit to me.

You sure about that? If a Bob-omb walks up behind Charizard it doesn't explode until it runs into his back.

Testing wings precisely is kind of hard though.

 

[san.]

I took a minute to dtilt his tail and bair his wings and looked at where the spark was. I guess it's more 1/2 of his tail and 2/3 of the wing you can't hit (I think I could hit a good portion of the back wing, but couldn't get that accurately).

 

[Asdioh]

All of Sonic's spikes on his head aren't either, making his landing animation on most of his moves almost invincible as he tucks his head/body in significantly.

Yeah he's a stupid character. His F-air also has crazy hitboxes/priority.

Meanwhile, Kirby's hurtboxes...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Similarly, many other characters have parts of their build that cannot be grabbed or hit.

Ganon's Trex hands is an example.

 

[NairWizard]

Similarly, many other characters have parts of their build that cannot be grabbed or hit.

Ganon's Trex hands is an example.

Not good enough. Ganon's entire body should be invincible, if canon is anything to go by.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Not good enough. Ganon's entire body should be invincible, if canon is anything to go by.

We're just merely toying for our enjoyment right now. Why make everything so easy?

--

I want to switch the discussion to King Dedede after viewing a couple tier lists from the previous pages. Entirely underestimated character. He's top 8.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

We're just merely toying for our enjoyment right now. Why make everything so easy?

--

I want switch the discussion to King Dedede after viewing a couple of tier lists from the previous pages. Entirely underestimated character. He's top 8.

see? top 8 so dont get ur hopes for any buffs for is penguin.

 

[Shaya]

Ganondorf now takes 80% less damage, but receives 300% damage if it hits his black white hole. You may permanently lose your limbs, swords or projectiles over the event horizon though, but you'll kill him at 0%, worth.

 

[Asdioh]

Anytime people talk about Dedede they're like "he's bad guys"
But I think they SERIOUSLY underestimate how amazing it is to be the third heaviest character, while also having one of the best recoveries ever. He lives so ****ing long/kills so early it's just not fun to fight him. I have to work twice as hard/make twice as many reads if I want to win.

 

[dean.]

I think Dedede's only decent. Damage-racking (if he can get a hit in) and survivability are great but his neutral is absolutely awful - relies a lot on hard reads since he lacks decent pokes/zoning tools.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Anytime people talk about Dedede they're like "he's bad guys"
But I think they SERIOUSLY underestimate how amazing it is to be the third heaviest character, while also having one of the best recoveries ever. He lives so ****ing long/kills so early it's just not fun to fight him. I have to work twice as hard/make twice as many reads if I want to win.

Damage input is on par with Ganon, but he has a formidable projectile this game (possibly the best) to get in. Throw strings are amazing and can be used to follow up with more stuff. He can gimp a lot of characters with bluffs due to his nature and Gordo.

He is underestimated but only because not many people are giving a closer look to him.

 

[Shaya]

Dedede's design screams 65:35s against one half of the cast, and 35:65s against the other half.
He either gets to stand there and reactively deal with all your **** due to his range with A LOT of opportunity for error (coz he's fat), or gets forced into permanent shield and cannot do anything at all.

 

[Ffamran]

Dedede's design screams 65:35s against one half of the cast, and 35:65s against the other half.
He either gets to stand there and reactively deal with all your **** due to his range with A LOT of opportunity for error (coz he's fat), or gets forced into permanent shield and cannot do anything at all.

If we ever have a pros/cons thing for characters, then we definitely need something like, "coz he's fat", as a pro for Triple D.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Dedede's design screams 65:35s against one half of the cast, and 35:65s against the other half.
He either gets to stand there and reactively deal with all your **** due to his range with A LOT of opportunity for error (coz he's fat), or gets forced into permanent shield and cannot do anything at all.

i guess the pit mu would be on the later side of the mu since. pit arrows can refect gordo.

 

[InfinityCollision]

he has a formidable projectile this game

It's so formidable that even Dedede fears it.

 

[Shaya]

i guess the pit mu would be on the later side of the mu since. pit arrows can refect gordo.

No. Is there a single character in this game who cannot reliably and safely reflect gordos? Honestly