Character Competitive Impressions

[Chuva]

I find a matchup list way more relevant than a tier list. In fact, the former should be an integral part of the latter or else you end up with either arbitrary power gaps or vague copy-paste results from tournaments.

 

[RESET Vao]

Ganondorf's own merits seem to have somewhat got worse since Brawl. No thunderstorming and Side B can just be slapped about, however the engine of the game (strings, followups and fear of so, longer recovery on many aerials and airdodge not being a get out of jail free card) have made him overall a better character.

He still has some pretty dope matchups. I really hate the Sonic matchup (which I also hated in Brawl) and Rosalina MU annoys me too. Diddy is more do-able in this game, he's had similar treatment to Ganon where his own merits have been toned down but the play of the game and status of other characters has made him slightly better overall, 2 bananas was much harder to deal with.

Will he above the bottom of the list? I'm not sure. I honestly don't think so.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ganondorf's own merits seem to have somewhat got worse since Brawl. No thunderstorming and Side B can just be slapped about, however the engine of the game (strings, followups and fear of so, longer recovery on many aerials and airdodge not being a get out of jail free card) have made him overall a better character.

He still has some pretty dope matchups. I really hate the Sonic matchup (which I also hated in Brawl) and Rosalina MU annoys me too. Diddy is more do-able in this game, he's had similar treatment to Ganon where his own merits have been toned down but the play of the game and status of other characters has made him slightly better overall, 2 bananas was much harder to deal with.

Will he above the bottom of the list? I'm not sure. I honestly don't think so.

Ganon is mid tier by many peoples thoughts here. he has one of the safest kill tilts in both up tilt and down tilt.
sure down b does not have a free follow up but aby thinking ganon has the the ability to tech chase from any option that player might choose. ganon ariels are getting better. since reacent patch all of them got less lag.
ganons a real cool choice. but his weakness are the same still. but this games shield does wonders in covering that up more. also did i mention 12% percent from an f tilt! like holy moly.

 

[RESET Vao]

I don't know if "safe" is the word I'd use to describe up tilt seeing as he's a sitting duck for roughly half an hour. Spartan kick is working wonders though, it and kossack spartan kick are great tilts.

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu beats Diddy?

Yea, hog-wash. All of it.

Mind telling me how Diddy beats Pikachu when Pikachu does almost as much damage off of throws, edgeguards Diddy and can't be edgeguarded back, and basically ignores Diddy's traps with Quick Attack (oh, you have a banana placed here? good for you, I'm just going to Quick Attack into the perfect spacing for me around your banana)? What does Diddy have in this matchup? He has to try to outrange using f-air to do anything (and you can't just spam that the whole match; it's good but Pikachu can dart under it or beat it with up-air); on the ground, Pikachu is going to win close-range footsies with d-tilt, up-tilt, SH f-air, and SH d-air. At midrange, side-b and bananas make Diddy better, but you should never be in midrange duking it out, Pikachu is too mobile to be caught there: thunderjolts are way better than peanuts, so Diddy has to be on the defensive for this one.

The most important thing, though, is that edgeguarding deal I mentioned: Pikachu seizes Diddy's stock often when Diddy is offstage. Diddy's recovery has good distance, but it's very predictable. This applies to any character who can go deep and has aerials that cover different angles, but Pikachu is the one I know best in this case: hit Diddy out of his initial side-b, which he will almost always try to use to get back to the stage before his up-b (if he does this way up high, then you need a move like Thunder to catch him for sure, which Pikachu has). Then, if he up-bs against the wall of the stage, even if he angles or wallclings it he's dead to a move like b-air. If he recovers from further away, you need to have a really good recovery like Quick Attack to make it back after edgeguarding, but oh hey look at what example I just used! Quick Attack! Guess who has that? Pikachu. Diddy's up-b has to be charged to be good. You can use that charge time to get a Tjolt, b-air, Quick Attack/n-air intercept (if you QA to the ledge before Diddy makes it there and hit him on the way over he's dead), Thunder--you have tons of options, and you can safely QA back to the stage after you're done.

Anwyay, I've been over this before, but people need to start using their heads against Diddy and not assuming that he beats everyone. He has weaknesses, exploit them. I'm not sure about what other MUs he loses, but Pikachu is one for sure. There must be others.

Shulk is too technical for WAY too little gain for how technical he is

This isn't a negative in a competitive setting. We always assume for purposes of competitive assessment that characters are played to a high tech skill level. The actual cap shouldn't affect their tier list placing unless it's so high that most players don't realistically reach it even with dedication (see: Melee Fox, who has so much tech skill involved that people still haven't mastered everything).

and for every strength his art gives, he gains a weakness (damage taken or knock back).

Except that

1) he has control over the arts, not his opponent, so even if the weaknesses were perfectly balanced with the strengths (see 2 below), Shulk would still be the winner overall because he determines when he uses what. For instance, Jump increases the amount of damage he takes in exchange for Jump Height. In neutral, this might be a 50-50 trade. But Shulk won't be using it in neutral. He will use it to recover when he's offstage or when he's about to finish an offstage opponent's stock. So the advantage is entirely +Shulk. The opponent gains very little.

2) the strength-weaknesses trades aren't even at all. Speed is only 80% damage dealt, a rather pathetic decrease for a stat as overwhelming as speed. Buster is 1.4x damage on Shulk's attacks (which also increases their shield safety/stun) vs. 1.13x damage on his opponent's attacks. It also decreases his knockback, which is good when you want to be able to followup. How is that balanced at all? The opponent gains like 1% extra damage on his attacks, oh no, how fearsome, whereas Shulk gains 4% *and* equivalent extra shield safety *and* easier followups from less knockback. You don't gain nearly enough weaknesses to offset the strengths. You just get flat out better with Monado Arts because of how they're balanced.

As for Shulk being slow, yes, his weakness is that he doesn't have quick options in the air (his jab1 is good in CQC though, just use that and you're good). His n-air is what, frame 10? Could be frame 6, that'd be a buff... but think about how silly this sounds. If a character like Shulk with all his range and the ability to randomly change the properties of his attacks had a frame 6 n-air, people would be calling for bans from the rooftops.

It would be like if you doubled the range on Diddy's d-tilt because "oh he has a weakness, his grounded normals don't have that much range." Well, I sure hope they don't! Or else this character would be truly OP.

It's not really enough to say that Shulk has weaknesses. Of course he does. What's important is: how do others exploit his weaknesses? What matchups does he lose? etc. From the Shulk side, we need to bring in some matchup data to show how good he is, and what we can do. But that'll be a while coming until Shulk mains learn to use his arts effectively.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't know if "safe" is the word I'd use to describe up tilt seeing as he's a sitting duck for roughly half an hour. Spartan kick is working wonders though, it and kossack spartan kick are great tilts.

woops ment f tilt lol

 

[Jabejazz]

This isn't a negative in a competitive setting. We always assume for purposes of competitive assessment that characters are played to a high tech skill level. The actual cap shouldn't affect their tier list placing unless it's so high that most players don't realistically reach it even with dedication (see: Melee Fox, who has so much tech skill involved that people still haven't mastered everything).

Agreed, as long as being more complex also yields better rewards.

In the case where 2 characters are really good and more or less equal, the one with a lower technical skill ceiling will (should) probably be ranked higher, as we're still all human, and a more complex character entails the risk of technical errors, while a braindead flowchart character generally won't.

1) he has control over the arts, not his opponent, so even if the weaknesses were perfectly balanced with the strengths (see 2 below), Shulk would still be the winner overall because he determines when he uses what. For instance, Jump increases the amount of damage he takes in exchange for Jump Height. In neutral, this might be a 50-50 trade. But Shulk won't be using it in neutral. He will use it to recover when he's offstage or when he's about to finish an offstage opponent's stock. So the advantage is entirely +Shulk. The opponent gains very little.

Again true, although it'll becomes more and more obvious what each Art brings to the table for the opponent. I know to watch for stupidly good pivot options with speed, for instance. That doesn't mean I can beat them, but I know what to look for; Shulk still is in full control or whatever he wants to do regardless, and there's still plenty of room for mindgaming people with Arts.

The actual, numerical weaknesses aren't as blatant/exploitable as they appear to be, in most cases.
But Arts themselves are somewhat flowchart-ish, for a lack of better term. That is, for the time being.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I know we hate tier lists that don't have much explanations but... I kinda wanted to write up a list based on what I was feeling because, as pointed out redundantly, there is a lot of talk of who are in peoples top 5/10/15 whatever. But every time I read that and tried to apply it for myself I was having trouble where I mentally drew the lines and who I was cutting out by saying "so and so is top 10, no question." So I wrote myself a list and figure I;d put it out there.

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:

This is a list with customs off. Characters are approximately in ranking order from left to right.

So this is just an impression that I've gotten from personal experience in online and offline matches, what I've seen in vids, and what I've read. Also consider I main Pit, secondary Fox/Palutena, and tertiary Duck Hunt. I think a lot of the general placements make sense based on what has already been discussed, but I figure I might throw out a few comments here and there.

: I think metaknight is underrated post patch and I may not have given him enough credit since his buffs. He is a solid character once again with legit aerial kill options, scary for a game where gimping is so valuable.

: Lucario's Aura mechanic, while powerful, really had me overatting him at first. The more I play him, the more I see him as an average character in the grand scheme of things, even if Aura produces absurd damage/kill percents.

: Peach is a monster in hiding in a skirt. I wouldn't be surprised if she deserves higher in the long run.

: The more I play him, the more I am underwhelmed. His grabs hurt, and he has a mix up game sure, but I feel a lack of match up experience gives him an advantage more then anything as his zoning tools have simple counters even when used in conjunction with each other. In the grand scheme of things, most of his moves are... average. Oh, and his landing issues are gross.

Clones in general: The differences in this generation of clones are minor enough that they barely warrant more then a couple spaces apart. That said, It was hard for me to judge exactly what magnitude of differences the changes between the two made, so for the most part I just have them side by side. One or two may be argued to a sliglty different tier, but I don't think any of the difference are dramatic eough for more that a one tier shift.

 

[NairWizard]

I understand that Diddy is pretty good and easy to use, but why is he a whole tier above everyone else on so many lists? He isn't Meta Knight, or do you guys think that he is? The top of top tier, I'm fine with. A tier all to himself, and a gap between him and the next strongest? What justifies that? (not calling out the above poster, just many lists I've seen)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Please elaborate on your opinion of Samus and Kirby, and what creates this distinction between them and your 8th section.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I understand that Diddy is pretty good and easy to use, but why is he a whole tier above everyone else on so many lists? He isn't Meta Knight, or do you guys think that he is? The top of top tier, I'm fine with. A tier all to himself, and a gap between him and the next strongest? What justifies that? (not calling out the above poster, just many lists I've seen)

For my list, I'll say I jsut distinctly see him as having maybe one or two negative matchups total, while the characters below him seem to have more. If barely. I certainly don't think I'm anywhere near perfect with my list, it was more an excercise to see where I actually settled things in my mind and to see what was off base. Diddy may not deserve a tier of his own, but I think he deserves 1st for sure atm.

Please elaborate on your opinion of Samus and Kirby, and what creates this distinction between them and your 8th section.

For Samus, the more and more I play her, the more I feel she really is outclassed by practically everyone. Her damage output, her zoning, her safety, her kills... it all just seems blah comapred to even those just above her. I see Olimar as more relevant with his Ai being a bit better (in fact if the pikiman AI was good he'd be a solid character I'd feel), Dedede having some redeeming grab qualities and recovery and better kill options, and wii fit racks damage better and I'd take her projectiles over Samus'.

Kirby is imo the worst in the game. Suffers like a heavyweight trying to get in, doesn't even get the same reward outside of low percent combos. No real zoning, little nuetral options and approaches, abysmal range. If anything I'd move Samus up to the 8th tier before moving anyone else next to kirby.

 

[HeroMystic]

I understand that Diddy is pretty good and easy to use, but why is he a whole tier above everyone else on so many lists? He isn't Meta Knight, or do you guys think that he is? The top of top tier, I'm fine with. A tier all to himself, and a gap between him and the next strongest? What justifies that? (not calling out the above poster, just many lists I've seen)

Right now, Diddy is just a dominant force that needs to be figured out. I personally don't believe he needs to be in his own tier right now, as I see obvious weaknesses with him (he's just really good at covering it by being really offensive). As it stands now though, I'm having trouble figuring out which character he has a disadvantage against without relying solely on hearsay.

 

[Chuva]

I'd move ZSS one tier up. That character may have some flaws but she's still very efficient at what she does and can go toe to toe with the other top characters (except Pikachu). She also continues to have good tournament results.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Please elaborate on your opinion of Samus and Kirby, and what creates this distinction between them and your 8th section.

if samus is bottom 2 by joves this is the most balance smash yet. like does anyone try and use her up tilt that kills at 100 %. at stage edge.

 

[Judo777]

Not sure if serious. Thinking Mac should be lower. Thinks that American tier lists are somehow any better than Japanese tier lists and are any better at placing characters. Implying that American tier lists which are made by bandwagoners with bad opinions are somehow better than ones that only take into account tournament results.

Lol I might be biased, but I think Mac might be the worst character in the game. Everyone of his hits comes from the neutral game. He has practically no followup game, so he has to win from neutral like 14 times a stock. As opposed to all his opponents that only need to win neutral 4 or 5 times to take a stock because he is so freaking vulnerable in the air and can be juggled for days.

One of the better players in my state swears greninja bthrow to bair kills mac almost unavoidably at practically zero, apparently he cant even counter (down b) it.

And considering the Japanese tier list last game slowly became the U.S. tier list at about 1/2 the speed as U.S. tier list came to be..... yea they are a little unusual (all my example showed this, it took them a very long time to put ICs at a reasonable position) I think IC's jumped like 17 places between 2 iterations of tier lists).

And NO i personally DON'T find results to cut and dry be the best basis for forming a tier list. Because they can't account for several things. A good example is Dark Pit and Pit. Those 2 are not very different, but Pit is significantly higher than Dark Pit. Why? Because alot of people think (and are probably right) that Pit is a better version of Dark Pit. So if you are going to play the Pits..... why would you play Dark Pit (the worse version)? You wouldn't (unless you just like one better) so one will have significantly lower tournament results than the other and as a result, be significantly lower than the other (even tho they SHOULD be like right next to each other).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

For Samus, the more and more I play her, the more I feel she really is outclassed by practically everyone. Her damage output, her zoning, her safety, her kills... it all just seems blah comapred to even those just above her. I see Olimar as more relevant with his Ai being a bit better (in fact if the pikiman AI was good he'd be a solid character I'd feel), Dedede having some redeeming grab qualities and recovery and better kill options, and wii fit racks damage better and I'd take her projectiles over Samus'.

Absolutely agree on Olimars AI. I am assuming you find no stock in her close/mid range game relative to WFT?
My experience with Samus is terribly low, so I'll peek your brain a bit. Relative to DDD he gets more power up close, but his range zoning is weaker and unsafe.

Kirby is imo the worst in the game. Suffers like a heavyweight trying to get in, doesn't even get the same reward outside of low percent combos. No real zoning, little nuetral options and approaches, abysmal range. If anything I'd move Samus up to the 8th tier before moving anyone else next to kirby.

Hmm. The way I see it, Kirby has less struggles to most of the higher cast then heavies. Given that Range is to a point relative, and while his range again is poor, this can be less true against certain cast members.
For instance his Range relative to Pikachu is acceptable, as it is Fox, and even Sheik. Those cast members also are not going to kill him in 4 reads in spite of his low Weight like a Marth Tipper or heavy will. I take the perspective that so long as the upper ring isn't filled with high killing or the range that truly bars him out, he'd be comfortable in that meta. Where as if the game is Pit,Shulk,Marth, Ganon. He gets walled out or dies in 3 reads and will struggle to be relevant as a result. Mind that Kirbys slowest tilt is frame 5. Kirby also having the lowest overall landing lag in the game after ZSS/WFT had their airdodges normalized + a decent pummel (but poor throw follow ups).

This isn't to shake your resolve only to indicate what Kirby is bringing over Heavies in general when he does get in.
Stronger pummels, faster start-up, less landing lag (which helps given his fast start-up on tilts/jab upon landing) and off-stage flexibility that they as a whole do not have. So when he does get in, he can opt for a chase off-the ledge that they cannot.
If inhale wasn't so heinously impractical this would probably be clearer for him as when we bring in MU's. Luma Shot beats out Rosa's luma shot. Kirbys needles are better then Sheiks, in general he often uses the stolen projectile better then the original. Despite Shulk ranging him out, Kirby again has better frame data and if he was to obtain inhale, would also have the speed to capitalize to make that more pronounced. Air Slash is also Stone bait. A shame that inhale is pretty garbage right now, + issues of getting hit out of copy with a d-air. Doesn't help that Speed Shulks walk speed is equivalent to default Kirbys Dash though.
Kirbys lack of range to me says his difficulty in neutral which is obviously bad, but not heinous given
a) the general range of many other weaponless fighters allowing him to play in the sandbox with them
b) his size which does make some options less usable
c) his weight, which prevents him from being chained as easily by general top tiers.
d) the presence of aerial footsies, that few other characters really do on a level that he and some others can.
e) Off-stage safety via his recovery flexibility, and off-stage chase as a result.

Again presuming the situation of the perceived top. Kirby should be fine because they generally don't exploit him in the way the rest of the cast can. To me overall Kirby improved from brawl outside of his throws, which leaves him basically the same. Which will obviously excuse him from being a standout character, but it is interesting to nurse the idea of him being the worst in the roster.

 

[NairWizard]

On Kirby: can't wait for Doubles Tier List. I'm still trying to get a good Kirby player to join me in Shulk + Kirby in Doubles. That's gonna be all kinds of awesome. Kirby with Monado Arts is terrifying. Terrifying.

 

[Kofu]

On Kirby: can't wait for Doubles Tier List. I'm still trying to get a good Kirby player to join me in Shulk + Kirby in Doubles. That's gonna be all kinds of awesome. Kirby with Monado Arts is terrifying. Terrifying.

That's only for one specific team, though. Wouldn't be enough to really bump Kirby up on the Doubles Tier List I feel.

Incidentally, how does Shulk do in teams?

 

[san.]

I think , heavy hitters, and camp/anti-camp characters are going to be very common. PSI magnet is an extremely powerful tool on Ness and Mii Gunner who are already great on their own and opens up many powerful healing + zoning strats, while G&W has bucket. Heavyweights provide ample hitstun on their attacks, allowing for very easy followups from teammates. Then there are odd partnerships that also work such as Jigglypuff + Little Mac

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If Robin has them locked in Nosferatu, does Jiggly get to kill them with Rest or are they safe in the Nosferatu?

 

[FlareHabanero]

If Robin has them locked in Nosferatu, does Jiggly get to kill them with Rest or are they safe in the Nosferatu?

Nosferatu inflicts damage to other opponents that touch the dark magic, so it shouldn't be possible for Jigglypuff to jump in and preform Rest as a secure KO, unless Jigglypuff is immune to damage in someway.

 

[NairWizard]

That's only for one specific team, though. Wouldn't be enough to really bump Kirby up on the Doubles Tier List I feel.

Incidentally, how does Shulk do in teams?

Doubles lists in my experience are usually of the form X+Y > A+B > C+D, not
X > Y > B > C > D > A

or whatever.

I was talking about Shulk+Kirby team, which is awesome.

As for Shulk in general, he's great in Doubles. He can be whatever his partner needs him to be. He can be a damage dealer, a stock-finisher, or just a tank. It's harder to time Shulk's modes out because he has another guy with him, too.

Having said that, I'm not sure whether Shulk is a top 5 Doubles character because there are people like Ness around, who are just way too good in Doubles. Ness is so so so good in Doubles.

 

[Latias]

What is everyones thoughts on captain falcon?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

What is everyones thoughts on captain falcon?

Good but predictable. He might be worse than wario and that's bad lol

 

[meleebrawler]

I just want to inform hopefully without offending anyone, Japanese tier lists have historically been very strange and often overrate characters with great zoning and camping while undermining stellar close range game (except lil mac for some reason who is stil WAY too high on the list).

In brawl it took them quite a bit longer than the U.S. to put MK over Snake on there tier list (I believe). Pit stayed up in high tier for a really long time, IC's were like mid tier for a long time (around the time we were rating them as 6th or 7th best in the game), and Zelda was mid tier for a long time.

I personally think villager is good, but Villager is like the pinnacle of the type of character Japan likes to overrate so that may be part of the reason why. Also FD is the only stage (possibly related to the trend i described).

Japan is scarred by Street Fighter II Sagat.

 

[Latias]

Good but predictable. He might be worse than wario and that's bad lol

I think the only thing he has issues with is his somewhat predictable approaches. You only have dash attack, dash grab, falling nair.

 

[Chuva]

I think the only thing he has issues with is his somewhat predictable approaches. You only have dash attack, dash grab, falling nair.

He doesn't have many defensive options either, and his recovery is poor.

 

[Latias]

He doesn't have many defensive options either, and his recovery is poor.

I don't really know what everyones issue with his recovery is. Its better than Mario/Lucina.

 

[Oilpath99]

Is Link or Toon Link considered better in this game

 

[Chuva]

I don't really know what everyones issue with his recovery is. Its better than Mario/Lucina.

Not sure about Mario, but I don't think it's better than Marth or Lucina with Dolphin Slash's speed, active hitbox and vertical range.

Besides, something being better than another doesn't necessarily means it's good. Jigglypuff's Rollout being arguably better than Yoshi's Egg Roll doesn't mean Rollout is a good move.

 

[Dre89]

Mind telling me how Diddy beats Pikachu when Pikachu does almost as much damage off of throws, edgeguards Diddy and can't be edgeguarded back, and basically ignores Diddy's traps with Quick Attack (oh, you have a banana placed here? good for you, I'm just going to Quick Attack into the perfect spacing for me around your banana)? What does Diddy have in this matchup? He has to try to outrange using f-air to do anything (and you can't just spam that the whole match; it's good but Pikachu can dart under it or beat it with up-air); on the ground, Pikachu is going to win close-range footsies with d-tilt, up-tilt, SH f-air, and SH d-air. At midrange, side-b and bananas make Diddy better, but you should never be in midrange duking it out, Pikachu is too mobile to be caught there: thunderjolts are way better than peanuts, so Diddy has to be on the defensive for this one.

Just want to point that out that Diddy's dtilt beats out every grounded option that Pikachu has in close-range footsies. You can use it out of dashes and I'm pretty sure Pikachu can't shieldgrab it if it's spaced well enough.

 

[NairWizard]

Just want to point that out that Diddy's dtilt beats out every grounded option that Pikachu has in close-range footsies. You can use it out of dashes and I'm pretty sure Pikachu can't shieldgrab it if it's spaced well enough.

d-tilt and SH f-air are what I use against Diddy's d-tilt as Pikachu
there's also pivot f-smash (heavily disjointed; have landed it on shields and not been punished, though if the other guy spotdodges he can punish)

 

[meleebrawler]

So I've just encountered a particularly scathing review of Mr.
Game and Watch in his thread. Warning: wall of text.

Spoiler

Mr. G&W is bad. Period. Anyone here who thinks he's anywhere near viable in real competitive play is either fooling themselves or doesn't actually understand high level competitive play. I've been using him since Brawl's release. And after trying and trying and trying, there is simply no way to use him effectively against anyone who has REAL matchup experience.

His smash game has been nerfed, horribly. He's lost the lingering hit box on f-smash, and the lasting hit box on dsmash has been reduced significantly. Both moves suffered significantly reduced knock back as well. Group those with the already highly punishableup smash, and G&W can now be easily punished on any of his smashes, god help you if you hit a shield. He had some saving grace with the invincibility frames he now has on up smash, but it hardly makes up for anything. Everyone is already learning to just walk away and punish after. If you're playing anyone who consistently dies by up-smash, THEY ARE NOT SKILLED PLAYERS. They are aggro-rushing fools. Arguing that up-smash is amazing is like arguing that warlock punch is amazing; of course it is, if they're dumb enough to walk into it.

Uptilt hits only directly above him, a limiting hit box that often leaves other moves as more practical options. Downtilt now has a cute little windbox which does little but occasionally catch your opponents off guard. Ftilt is probably his safest move period, and can provide kills at higher percentages, which I argue is the only character specific buff he received that proves useful.

Aerials got the shaft too. Increased landing lag on everything makes fair dangerous and dair very punishable, especially now that you can't control it's midair speed nearly as well or reliably as before. Uair has a reduced windbox, and SSB Air Dodge has made it nearly impossible to even land. Does have a nice little kill window, but you can easily miss it, causing the first hit of Uair to provide too much knock back for the second hit to land. Bair had its last poking hit removed, and is easily punished on shield. It is NOT a safe approach. You WILL be shieldgrabbed between hits. Nair has remained mainly the same visually, but contains much less priority.

Bucket is worthless against anyone who doesn't have an energy based projectile (or bombs now I guess, woohoo.) and even if they do have them, should be able to use them effectively if the player has any match-up experience at all. Judgement if anything received a nerf in that it is now truly random. I used to be able to risk my life throwing out that super punishable move knowing I wouldn't hit a 1 the next two times, now I don't know what to expect. (note: the multihit judge is very useful, but since we're apparently banning customs this doesn't help.) Up-B remains a safe recovery, and Chef tends to fly more practically, but hardly provides enough hitstun under 90 to do much more than throw a cheap shot out for a couple percent when the situation is optimal.

Throws remained the same save for dthrow, which sets up wonderfully on some of the cast, but can't be used on certain characters (a good Yoshi will Nair through your Nair.) G&W still continues to have one of the worst grab ranges in the game, however, so good luck getting close enough.

What people don't realize about G&W is that he will destroy characters "worse" than him harder than many characters above him can, but too many characters have too many moves that will guarantee a KO on G&W at 80% or higher. Certain matchups are literally unplayable. Once the tier list becomes defined and players become more knowledgeable in the match-up, G&W will settle into the lower tiers, just as he did in Brawl, and just as he did in Japan.

I'm not trying to be negative, I would love nothing more than more G&W to get better, but what I'm reading on here from some people is ludicrous. There's a fine line between wishful thinking and insanity. The first step to treating a problem is admitting there is one. Now repeat after me:

Mr. G&W is NOT good.

Now regardless of whether you read that or not, anyone's thoughts on G&W?

 

[Dre89]

d-tilt and SH f-air are what I use against Diddy's d-tilt as Pikachu
there's also pivot f-smash (heavily disjointed; have landed it on shields and not been punished, though if the other guy spotdodges he can punish)

No one is saying that you can't play around it. The point is Diddy's dtilt is the best tool between the two of them in close-range footsies. It's fast, outranges all of Pikachu's grounded options, can't be shieldgrabbed if spaced properly and has good reward on hit. Pikachu can play around it, but Diddy is equally if not more capable of outplaying Pikachu in that situation due to having the superior options in that scenario.

 

[zeldasmash]

Is Link or Toon Link considered better in this game

Link is definitely better here than he was Brawl. Dunno know about Toon Link, i think he got slightly nerfed. But both are viable though.

 

[san.]

G&W can be good in any MU where he can bucket anything (bucketing explosions like Sheik's upB and bombs is definitely a plus). He has good mobility, throw followups, disjoint, and recovery. He's just so light this time around and lack of bucket braking hurts him.

 

[NairWizard]

No one is saying that you can't play around it. The point is Diddy's dtilt is the best tool between the two of them in close-range footsies. It's fast, outranges all of Pikachu's grounded options, can't be shieldgrabbed if spaced properly and has good reward on hit. Pikachu can play around it, but Diddy is equally if not more capable of outplaying Pikachu in that situation due to having the superior options in that scenario.

I'm not saying that you can play around it. I'm saying that it flat out isn't better.

There are only a few pixels of difference between Diddy's d-tilt and Pikachu's d-tilt (literally almost 3 pixels). Don't be fooled by the animation. Pika's d-tilt also can't be shieldgrabbed if spaced properly, so overall their d-tilts are basically the same, like MK dittos in Brawl. The person to d-tilt first extends his hurtbox and is susceptible to the opponent's d-tilt. In fact, when Diddy crouches, he extends his hurtbox forward just a little bit more than when Pikachu does, and Pikachu's d-tilt gets more relative range this way.

Tested this on FD with two controllers just now.

The difference between their d-tilts doesn't matter because it's very very small in both directions; both are potent tools. What does matter is that Pikachu is better almost everywhere else: a faster f-tilt to interrupt aerial empty hop approaches; a better SH f-air (though Diddy's does have more range by a lot, so FH f-air is better on him), and a more disjointed f-smash for pivoting (Diddy's f-smash extends his hurtboxes, because he also moves forward). He's also got SH d-air, to which Diddy has no equivalent response. Though, to be fair, Diddy has better grab range, which does matter since they both want to grab each other.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So... A friend is dead set on saying that Charizard is garbage.

That's not a wide spread thought, is it?

I mean he's no Diddy but he's completely viable.

One of the reasons he thinks he's bad is because he can't approach well, but that's kinda missing the point of Charizard. He's made to sit back, tank hits and Punish.

Thoughts?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've seen a lot of people consider him to be bad. At a tournament I went to this week, people there seemed to think he was the worst in the game.

I think he's in an awkward position where people take a glance at him and think he can't approach, can't move through the air, can't combo, can't get out of juggles, and is gimpable. They think he's Flare Blitz and Rock Smash, nothing else.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I've seen a lot of people consider him to be bad. At a tournament I went to this week, people there seemed to think he was the worst in the game.

I think he's in an awkward position where people take a glance at him and think he can't approach, can't move through the air, can't combo, can't get out of juggles, and is gimpable. They think he's Flare Blitz and Rock Smash, nothing else.

So you think it's just general ignorance? Like Ike and Shulk before.