Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

They are intentionally chained down with limitations to keep them in check.

It is what it is.

@ Road Death Wheel

I am now convinced you are not playing the same game as us.

sniff im sorry >.<
im not the best marth but i love the character. im used to using lingering hit boxes please correct me im willing to learn.

also not sure if people are talking about this but it could spur some converstation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LE1emLDAZ8
its really the extra range that caught me.

 

[Shaya]

Been doing that on the 3DS the entire time and the first thing I tried to do (and successfully) on wiiu/game cube controller was Fair into dash fsmash tipper.
And also pivot fsmash.
God they make me happy.

Stutter stepping is good too. But easier. And also you don't need to be "fox trotting" for this (well, you do need to reset analog to neutral and then 'fox trot' during your run to fsmash forwards, but I'm going to practise just skid reverse fsmash).

And yes, I'm often sarcastic.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Been doing that on the 3DS the entire time and the first thing I tried to do (and successfully) on wiiu/game cube controller was Fair into dash fsmash tipper.
And also pivot fsmash.

God they make me happy.

they seem very usefull expecially for mario if that can become his solid kill option. these tier placements for him might actually make sence.

 

[chipndip]

can u clarify? cause litterally nothing about them in the cummunity patch notes.
and yes theres a whole lot of variables for a developer to consider.

knock back values for every size
hit stun values for every size
shield size
damage percent for every freaking move on every size
how every size corspond to other members of the cast. (the most imposible part to balance.)
what combos them at what size.
what range each move has at what size.
what different combos are there at each size.
does a the moves set cover his weakness entierly for each size ( it should not)
whats the hurt box of the miis at each size.
is the damage and kill power proportionate for each size.

this is a **** load of work just to balance one character much less three. and there so much more things this is just a taste.

Things like these tend to be bypassed for the sake of more as far as I've seen in the community, based on what I've seen so far. >_>

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Been doing that on the 3DS the entire time and the first thing I tried to do (and successfully) on wiiu/game cube controller was Fair into dash fsmash tipper.
And also pivot fsmash.
God they make me happy.

Stutter stepping is good too. But easier. And also you don't need to be "fox trotting" for this (well, you do need to reset analog to neutral and then 'fox trot' during your run to fsmash forwards, but I'm going to practise just skid reverse fsmash).

And yes, I'm often sarcastic.

well durringthe initial dash animation u can dose a easyer pivot f smash by simply dashing that hitting the c stick the other way. it great for punishes really.

 

[Tagxy]

Finally got the game and had a chance to play with some good peeps recently. Had a few observations but one I wanted to point out now.

Pivoting seems extremely good and seemingly underrated. In this case by pivoting I mean anything that can be done by and leading up to a turn. I know it was good in brawl but now it seems even better, its pretty awesome at breaking defenses (including many forms of retreat) and extending combos/strings. A noticeable strength for small or fast characters or those blessed with both that I dont see used nearly often enough. Maybe just an early impression but Ive been using it a lot to good success, you can quote me later but I feel certain this will be a thing in a year or so. Granted I feel certain characters can take better advantage of this then others and trying to think of who.

also not sure if people are talking about this but it could spur some converstation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LE1emLDAZ8
its really the extra range that caught me.

Fox Trot is faster then some peoples dashes? Was this a thing in Brawl?

Also speaking of weird techniques, I havent seen a thread on this yet but has anyone figured out the odd edge cancel Marth did?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mPjV0o_lio

 

[Z'zgashi]

Guys, I cant decide whos the best between my 3 mains atm; Yoshi, Wario, and Shulk.

Help me decide lol.

 

[Nocally]

Japan sleeping on the rat despite his good results at high level play...

They have slept a decade on him, in Brawl he was 22 on their tier list.

 

[Z'zgashi]

For what its worth, Pikachu is #2 imo.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Finally got the game and had a chance to play with some good peeps recently. Had a few observations but one I wanted to point out now.

Pivoting seems extremely good and seemingly underrated. In this case by pivoting I mean anything that can be done by and leading up to a turn. I know it was good in brawl but now it seems even better, its pretty awesome at breaking defenses (including many forms of retreat) and extending combos/strings. A noticeable strength for small or fast characters or those blessed with both that I dont see used nearly often enough. Maybe just an early impression but Ive been using it a lot to good success, you can quote me later but I feel certain this will be a thing in a year or so. Granted I feel certain characters can take better advantage of this then others and trying to think of who.


Fox Trot is faster then some peoples dashes? Was this a thing in Brawl?

Also speaking of weird techniques, I havent seen a thread on this yet but has anyone figured out the odd edge cancel Marth did?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mPjV0o_lio

pivoting is actually of more use to heavys if anything. ganon loves him some pivot f tilt kills.
dk and d3 also have gud f tilts to make use this.
but the godliest (bias probably) is pits and shieks.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Guys, I cant decide whos the best between my 3 mains atm; Yoshi, Wario, and Shulk.

Help me decide lol.

numbers require me to say shulk or yoshi. but ima say wario.

edit* srry shaya did not intend to double post thought i was editing xd.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Pivot ftilt makes Shulk OP

 

[NairWizard]

Pivot options are my secret to success, and why I have cut down on my shielding as much as I have. It's great to be mobile on all of my characters.

Shulk is OP with pivot f-tilt, indeed, and pivot grab on Speed Shulk is simply delicious.
Pikachu's pivot f-tilt, smash, AND grab are ridiculous.

Palutena...blah. It makes her f-tilt usable. Pivot grab is really good though out of Super Speed, but I'd rather use JC Explosive Flame if I want a delayed grab. Guess not so much on this one.

 

[Tagxy]

Yeah I didnt think of long range pivots, further proof of its awesomeness.

ADHD called pikachu an equally good but more complex Diddy. I dont really believe hes that good, however I do think he is more complex then most other good characters and that itll take awhile to see where he lands. His metagame got a bigger jumpstart then it mightve normally thanks to ESAM. I think its possible he might have a hidden boss match-up outside the games better characters, but admittedly his early MUs against the out-the-gate best in the cast seem fairly strong. When I was playing peeps in SoCal there was subtle bitterness at his strength and most had him in their top 5 (some above Rosalina), but that again seems exaggerated to me based on how little is known.

 

[DanGR]

Do you guys actually think shulk is "overpowered," whatever that may mean, or is it hyperbole?

 

[NairWizard]

Do you guys actually think shulk is "overpowered," whatever that may mean, or is it hyperbole?

I think that Shulk is top 5, yes. I don't think that most here agree, though, "OP" seems to be synonymous with "really really strong." I'll admit I've been defaulting to Pikachu in tournament because Pikachu is just so good, but sometimes I use Shulk and am wowed by how amazing he is, and the untapped potential. There's so much that people just don't know about Shulk's strategies.

For instance, when Shulk is at high percents, some people think that you can just time out Shulk's Smash Monado until he loses it, and then he can't kill you with a throw any more. This is false, because the moment that he's out of Smash, he can go into Shield and survive for a few seconds until Smash regenerates (he can also camp you out with Speed, but that's a less viable tactic imo since Shulk is tall). Vs. Ness, when you and Ness are at high percents, Shulk enters a little grab war in Smash Monado mode. If his Smash Monado runs out, he switches to shield, survives Ness' b-throw if Ness can land it, and then goes back to Smash once he's back on the stage and repeats. He can turn many situations into 50-50s just by doing this, mitigating the best strengths of other characters. I have very rarely actually had my important Monado Arts timed out because there's always a substitute art that buys me time in every situation until I get the art that I need back. It's quite useful.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, though.

I also see Shulks not having committed their arts to muscle memory, and going into an art while an opponent just respawned on a platform (you can cycle through the arts until the guy gets off the platform). This is very suboptimal; Shulk with full mastery of his arts is much stronger than Shulk with a fishing pole looking for his arts. Once Shulks figure out the optimal art patterns for each matchup and perfect their tech, I think that Shulk will be an easy top tier.

on the subject of Pikachu, yes, I don't see how he's not better than Diddy. Objectively speaking, it just seems obvious to me. It's an easy comparison and Diddy doesn't come out ahead in anything except having a massive f-air vs. sword characters, but Pikachu can just gimp many sword characters anyway, so that's not that big a deal. If nothing else, though, winning the head-to-head matchup is huge.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I more meant it as a 'its really good' term. I dont think Shulk is top 5, but top 10 maybe. It personally think Yoshi/Wario/Shulk (and prob a few more, its late and I dont feel like thinking very hard lol) are around 7-13ish somewhere.

 

[chipndip]

snip

Shulk is top 5?

Pikachu beats Diddy?

Yea, hog-wash. All of it. Shulk is too technical for WAY too little gain for how technical he is, and for every strength his art gives, he gains a weakness (damage taken or knock back). He's also slow and has to commit to a lot of his moves, but he's not heavy unless he's in shield form, which makes him slower. Getting rolled while in certain arts makes the damage taken worse, while others lead to early KOs via gimping or just straight flying away.

Best part about Shulk is his taunt.

 

[Shaya]

Pikachu may beat diddy.

 

[Untouch]

I still think pikachu has the best aerials in the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Guys, I cant decide whos the best between my 3 mains atm; Yoshi, Wario, and Shulk.

Help me decide lol.

Yoshi is obviously the best of these 3.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People are hyping Mii Brawler recently, wowsa.

 

[Jigglymaster]

People are hyping Mii Brawler recently, wowsa.

He's reaaaallly underrated. Let me restate a few facts about him that warrant his placement on the tier list.

-He has the fastest air speed in the game, faster than Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Wario, ect
-Feint Jump essentially gives him 4 jumps, making his horizontal recovery unrivaled.
-He is Middle Weight
-Helicopter Kick can gimp characters off the side as early as 50% as you can control how far you move horizontally, you can kill even earlier if you go for a suicide kill and just hold away from the stage, letting it travel as far as it can.
-D-throw, u-air, and f-air all easily combo into helicopter kick, at higher percents it becomes a 50/50 mixup on reading if they'll air dodge or not.
-Helicopter kick does a whopping 17%, comboing it from d-throw is a clean 23% garunteed at lower percents.

His downsides is that if he doesn't kill you with Helicopter Kick, he doesn't have much other way of killing you. His F-smash, U-smash, and Onsalught are all easily punishable and his D-smash is pretty weak. None of his other attacks will kill you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He's reaaaallly underrated.

I don't know anybody who doesn't acknowledge how powerful the character is. Calling him underrated is like calling Pikachu underrated. They aren't being underrated by any one but for some reason a lot of people think so.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

ok someone please explain to me why Villager and Wario are both top 10 on the new japanese tier list. there is no way. and im expecting diddy nerfs now for sure since hes number 1 pretty much worldwide lol. people keep saying wario is good but anyone who played him in brawl knows a shadow of his former self. only wario that will be good is a run away defensive wario to plays for low % waft kills.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I don't know anybody who doesn't acknowledge how powerful the character is. Calling him underrated is like calling Pikachu underrated. They aren't being underrated by any one but for some reason a lot of people think so.

Trust me, there are plenty of people on reddit asking why he's so high on the tiers. Maybe underrated isn't the right term, underused is probably the better word. He's probably underused because of the whole custom move shenanigans, which are banned in a lot of places, not japan apparently though.

 

[Flamecircle]

Trust me, there are plenty of people on reddit asking why he's so high on the tiers. Maybe underrated isn't the right term, underused is probably the better word. He's probably underused because of the whole custom move shenanigans, which are banned in a lot of places, not japan apparently though.

Reddit also isn't the best base of people who know things about smash 4.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Spoiler

I was mentioning this a bit in the Swordfighter forum however in relation to @san. 's SF support.
I wouldn't really say Short/Thin, or Short/Wide may be his best options, on platform stages. Utilt can't do anything to anyone above a platform on maximum stage, which requires you to jump/uair/nair. If he's somewhat taller however he can Utilt through the platform. Which I believe is less of a commitment then going for the U-air. Granted U-air has 16% damage.

A test Mii with even a small height adjustment still struggles to tilt the platform.
We generally prefer less lag to range but SF will never be buttery smooth and if you go for minimum height, your spacing isn't all that either.

As far as recovery goes. His version of Firefox is sufficient. Reversal slash edgeguarding is solid. Uair is solid. Looks like he will have better MUs then default WFT.

Do you guys actually think shulk is "overpowered," whatever that may mean, or is it hyperbole?

Hyperbole. He is a strong character who can put make-up on his flaws. Weaknesses are diminished by strong spacing. Eg. Nair has 12 frames of landing lag Iirc, (d) buster does (12)11% tipped which should be approx ~5 shield stun. These aren't particularly unsafe in the context of smash 4.

 

[Kofu]

He's reaaaallly underrated. Let me restate a few facts about him that warrant his placement on the tier list.

-He has the fastest air speed in the game, faster than Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Wario, etc.

Are you sure on this? That seems a little too good to be true. Is it true for all sizes of Brawler or just the short size?

My favorite of the Miis is the Brawler, I may look into using him some more. The specials I have selected are Shot Put, Headache Maker (although I'll probably replace it), Helicopter Kick, and Feint Jump. I pegged Feint Jump as being critical to his game the first time I tried him out, lol.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Are you sure on this? That seems a little too good to be true. Is it true for all sizes of Brawler or just the short size?

My favorite of the Miis is the Brawler, I may look into using him some more. The specials I have selected are Shot Put, Headache Maker (although I'll probably replace it), Helicopter Kick, and Feint Jump. I pegged Feint Jump as being critical to his game the first time I tried him out, lol.

I've tested this by racing Yoshi and Mii Brawler with tanooki tails. Mii Brawler goes faster.

 

[Judo777]

I just want to inform hopefully without offending anyone, Japanese tier lists have historically been very strange and often overrate characters with great zoning and camping while undermining stellar close range game (except lil mac for some reason who is stil WAY too high on the list).

In brawl it took them quite a bit longer than the U.S. to put MK over Snake on there tier list (I believe). Pit stayed up in high tier for a really long time, IC's were like mid tier for a long time (around the time we were rating them as 6th or 7th best in the game), and Zelda was mid tier for a long time.

I personally think villager is good, but Villager is like the pinnacle of the type of character Japan likes to overrate so that may be part of the reason why. Also FD is the only stage (possibly related to the trend i described).

 

[ChampKing]

I just want to inform hopefully without offending anyone, Japanese tier lists have historically been very strange and often overrate characters with great zoning and camping while undermining stellar close range game (except lil mac for some reason who is stil WAY too high on the list).

In brawl it took them quite a bit longer than the U.S. to put MK over Snake on there tier list (I believe). Pit stayed up in high tier for a really long time, IC's were like mid tier for a long time (around the time we were rating them as 6th or 7th best in the game), and Zelda was mid tier for a long time.

I personally think villager is good, but Villager is like the pinnacle of the type of character Japan likes to overrate so that may be part of the reason why. Also FD is the only stage (possibly related to the trend i described).

Not sure if serious. Thinking Mac should be lower. Thinks that American tier lists are somehow any better than Japanese tier lists and are any better at placing characters. Implying that American tier lists which are made by bandwagoners with bad opinions are somehow better than ones that only take into account tournament results.

 

[Chuva]

And this is why a tier list this early in the game is kinda bogus, and that applies worldwide. I mean, some of us still have trouble outlining a clear top 5 (my top "5" must have like 8 characters).

Also, I think people are undermining Mac's merits too much. Yeah once he loses the neutral, chances are he will probably stay at disadvantage until he loses the stock, but beating Mac in the neutral in the first place is a hard task for a lot of characters. Mac's comeback potential by itself is not something to ignore either (and no I'm not referring only to his K.O punch)

 

[Vengeance_NS]

well that explains why they rated Wario top 10. if your saying they overate a strong camping game. wario still has a fantastic camp game.

 

[ZombieBran]

And this is why a tier list this early in the game is kinda bogus, and that applies worldwide. I mean, some of us still have trouble outlining a clear top 5 (my top "5" must have like 8 characters).

Everyone says this but then when is a tier list supposed to first appear? A year after release?
Tier lists can change. Current ones reflect the region's current metagame, simple as that.

 

[Jabejazz]

Is a tier list really that important in the first place?

Whether character X is ranked 23rd or 51st isn't relevant to me. I'd rather know how easily X beats Y.
And once we figure that out, the tier list should be made.

 

[ZombieBran]

Is a tier list really that important in the first place?

Whether character X is ranked 23rd or 51st isn't relevant to me. I'd rather know how easily X beats Y.
And once we figure that out, the tier list should be made.

Yes.

Tier lists typically take into account a character's matchups with character s/he is likely to face. Matchup charts exist too.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Fortunately @ ~ Gheb ~ is working on a tournament MatchUp chart I do believe.
And the boards are (at an understandable snails pace filled with early assumptions and bias) doing that as well?

If anything the tier lists are just again early impressions summed up given MU's aren't really done.
Which you can use to contrast against your own and give you a talking point.

 

[ZombieBran]

The problem with results based matchup charts is that they are often just player based matchup charts for characters who aren't used often (aka low tiers and weird characters)

It's the best we'll get for a while though, I imagine.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think that Shulk is top 5, yes. I don't think that most here agree, though, "OP" seems to be synonymous with "really really strong." I'll admit I've been defaulting to Pikachu in tournament because Pikachu is just so good, but sometimes I use Shulk and am wowed by how amazing he is, and the untapped potential. There's so much that people just don't know about Shulk's strategies.

For instance, when Shulk is at high percents, some people think that you can just time out Shulk's Smash Monado until he loses it, and then he can't kill you with a throw any more. This is false, because the moment that he's out of Smash, he can go into Shield and survive for a few seconds until Smash regenerates (he can also camp you out with Speed, but that's a less viable tactic imo since Shulk is tall). Vs. Ness, when you and Ness are at high percents, Shulk enters a little grab war in Smash Monado mode. If his Smash Monado runs out, he switches to shield, survives Ness' b-throw if Ness can land it, and then goes back to Smash once he's back on the stage and repeats. He can turn many situations into 50-50s just by doing this, mitigating the best strengths of other characters. I have very rarely actually had my important Monado Arts timed out because there's always a substitute art that buys me time in every situation until I get the art that I need back. It's quite useful.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, though.

I also see Shulks not having committed their arts to muscle memory, and going into an art while an opponent just respawned on a platform (you can cycle through the arts until the guy gets off the platform). This is very suboptimal; Shulk with full mastery of his arts is much stronger than Shulk with a fishing pole looking for his arts. Once Shulks figure out the optimal art patterns for each matchup and perfect their tech, I think that Shulk will be an easy top tier.

on the subject of Pikachu, yes, I don't see how he's not better than Diddy. Objectively speaking, it just seems obvious to me. It's an easy comparison and Diddy doesn't come out ahead in anything except having a massive f-air vs. sword characters, but Pikachu can just gimp many sword characters anyway, so that's not that big a deal. If nothing else, though, winning the head-to-head matchup is huge.

man u got to remind me to face u at some point i wana see how effective this can keep people out on shulk.