Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

Can't wait for my Shulks reduced Frame data.

Are you ready for Frame 1 Fair? I am beyond ready.

Kirby isn't shabby but I said it before.
Kirby doesn't display anything exemplary and its being outstanding that typically matters. Short ass range, poop aerial movement.
However.
Great pummel, good damage off that U-throw, quick tilts, and some combos/strings, decent edgeguard and recovery. Walking is clearly overpowered.

 

[NairWizard]

If (and that's a big if) this tier list is used as the predicate for balance, true imbalance will result.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

poop aerial movement.

This has always struck me as odd. I mean, Kirby seems pretty mobile in the air in his games, which might actually hold relevance this time because Sakurai literally made Kirby.

Anyways, I have a question for you, someone with more experience than I with the character.

If they were too improve his aerial mobility, what would you think? Or if it were to happen (an increase), how far would you (specifically you) take it? Finally, how needed of a change is that in your opinion?

And if you could answer that for his dash/run speed as well it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Deleted member]

Can't wait for my Shulks reduced Frame data.

Are you ready for Frame 1 Fair? I am beyond ready.

Aw yis. Frame 1 auto cancel fairs.

 

[Locke 06]

This has always struck me as odd. I mean, Kirby seems pretty mobile in the air in his games, which might actually hold relevance this time because Sakurai literally made Kirby.

Anyways, I have a question for you, someone with more experience than I with the character.

If they were too improve his aerial mobility, what would you think? Or if it were to happen (an increase), how far would you (specifically you) take it? Finally, how needed of a change is that in your opinion?

And if you could answer that for his dash/run speed as well it would be greatly appreciated.

Kirby isn't mobile in the air... Try flying over stages as vanilla Kirby as opposed to running and you'll find that out quickly. (Most notably in gourmet race)

Edit: in his original games.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Kirby isn't mobile in the air... Try flying over stages as vanilla Kirby as opposed to running and you'll find that out quickly. (Most notably in gourmet race)

Its been a little while since I've messed around with them, so forgive me if I'm wrong there.

I was referring more to Dream Land 1 or so. Also, I mean, of course his air speed will be lower than his run speed so the whole comparison there doesn't really work well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giWzzjEgGIM&feature=player_detailpage#t=888

This is not that bad when compared to his run speed. In Smash tho...

Edit: This is probably better

 

[Shaya]

If (and that's a big if) this tier list is used as the predicate for balance, true imbalance will result.

I was already aware Marth/Lucina are considered bottom tier in Japan.
Keikaku Doori.
But in all seriousness, they're iffie. DB consistency issues amongst purposeful limiting that I doubt many other characters in the game have (his auto cancels) just makes him a chore to play, even if his design is still extremely solid. Let's just hope they don't do a blanket 1% buff on him, it'd be nice (it would be reversing most of the actual nerfs he got between brawl and this), but I'd rather a working dancing blade.

Otherwise I'm only really worried about them buffing ganondorf further. And them touching more of the top besides Diddy, letting toxic characters like Villager rise. Well, if they touch all of S/A it wouldn't be too bad.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

This has always struck me as odd. I mean, Kirby seems pretty mobile in the air in his games, which might actually hold relevance this time because Sakurai literally made Kirby.

Anyways, I have a question for you, someone with more experience than I with the character.

If they were too improve his aerial mobility, what would you think? Or if it were to happen (an increase), how far would you (specifically you) take it? Finally, how needed of a change is that in your opinion?

And if you could answer that for his dash/run speed as well it would be greatly appreciated.

Spoiler

Take it nowhere, Kirby still wouldn't be more than a side-deviation from Pit/Shulk/Brawler who offer greater strengths even with greater air speed.On top of that increasing his air speed goes against what he is, which is why you'll probably never see it accepted in a threat like the Community Patch Project.
If we're playing hypothetics though, you'll be able to punish whiffs from your air baiting properly, possibly actually follow your u-airs/F-airs up on a real level and be able to cross-up without feeling like an idiot. Finally sword users won't just throw out an F-air to stop your edgeguard knowing you lack the momentum to weave in.

You want Kirbys main shortcomings in the context of Smash 4?
utilt falling off quickly, his multijab getting jumped out off ridiculously easy compared to everyone else. U-air getting beat out by everything and its mom, opting to play aerial footsies with your jump despite your air speed because your ground range leaves something to be desired (except oddly enough in a fair amount of "top" MU's). Inhale being impractical, Hammer Flip being unnecessarily situational, Final cutter sucks, Stone takes forever to transform. D-throw does almost nothing important. You can solve/mitigate 3/4 special qualms with Customs. Utilt isn't a real issue and is me nitpicking. U-air needs Jesus. aerial footsies is cool, too bad he lacks command grab (oh wait Customs).

Tl;dr: I'd allow Kirby his custom moveset, and not complain since nothings supposed to be perfect.

 

[Kofu]

I was already aware Marth/Lucina are considered bottom tier in Japan.
Keikaku Doori.
But in all seriousness, they're iffie. DB consistency issues amongst purposeful limiting that I doubt many other characters in the game have (his auto cancels) just makes him a chore to play, even if his design is still extremely solid. Let's just hope they don't do a blanket 1% buff on him, it'd be nice (it would be reversing most of the actual nerfs he got between brawl and this), but I'd rather a working dancing blade.

Otherwise I'm only really worried about them buffing ganondorf further. And them touching more of the top besides Diddy, letting toxic characters like Villager rise. Well, if they touch all of S/A it wouldn't be too bad.

Can I ask how Dancing Blade is "supposed" to work? It still seems to me to be pretty consistent (maybe I'm just bad at DIing out, wouldn't surprise me). I don't really play Marth/Lucina (in fact they're two of my worst characters) but I don't see anything wrong with the move. Unless you're just comparing it to Brawl (but even then I didn't feel it was overpowered; I could usually escape before the last hit).

 

[Iron Kraken]

Otherwise I'm only really worried about them buffing ganondorf further. And them touching more of the top besides Diddy, letting toxic characters like Villager rise. Well, if they touch all of S/A it wouldn't be too bad.

Imagine Smash 4 if Villager and Sonic were the only S tier characters.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Imagine Smash 4 if Villager and Sonic were the only S tier characters.

Despite villager being ridiculous...he's at least more interesting too watch then DhD.
I'd be more worried if Top tier was Pacman and Duck Hunt Dog. Cluttering the stage with their inane ****, while trying to force approaches that aren't going to happen.

 

[NairWizard]

Villager, DHD, and Pacman are toxic because they have strong keepaway/zoning games.
Sonic is toxic because spindash is unreactable.
Sheik is toxic because she never has to commit and OMG needles.
Pikachu is toxic because he's tiny and Quick Attack is too...quick.
Little Mac is toxic because he has super armor on everything and he's boring and dumb, but that's OK because he sucks.
Ness is toxic because he can kill you at 100% with a throw.
Diddy is toxic because he's Diddy.

tl;dr everyone in the game but my character and other characters who aren't that good are toxic, because they have strengths that I can't just press buttons against and win. Unfair, Sakurai pls nerf/ban.

 

[Nobie]

I don't know if it's just seeing a few limited opinions but is Diddy causing a lot more anger than Rosalina ever did? I wonder why this might be.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Villager, DHD, and Pacman are toxic because they have strong keepaway/zoning games.
Sonic is toxic because spindash is unreactable.
Sheik is toxic because she never has to commit and OMG needles.
Pikachu is toxic because he's tiny and Quick Attack is too...quick.
Little Mac is toxic because he has super armor on everything and he's boring and dumb, but that's OK because he sucks.
Ness is toxic because he can kill you at 100% with a throw.
Diddy is toxic because he's Diddy.

tl;dr everyone in the game but my character and other characters who aren't that good are toxic, because they have strengths that I can't just press buttons against and win. Unfair, Sakurai pls nerf/ban.

"Rock is OP, Paper is fine."
-Scissors

 

[Jabejazz]

Nobody claims anybody was toxic.

The only complaints we commonly hear is that Sonic is poorly designed and Lucario is overtuned (even that we don't really hear anymore, although still true).

Diddy is super good. When he's good to the point where we remove stages from our ruleset and that we create a Banana Grab Limit rule, I'll bite about the toxicity of the matter.

I don't know if it's just seeing a few limited opinions but is Diddy causing a lot more anger than Rosalina ever did? I wonder why this might be.

Has to do with the fact that Diddy is much easier to play to be effective, making more players pick him up, creating a theoretical top 8 of Diddy players.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If (and that's a big if) this tier list is used as the predicate for balance, true imbalance will result.

Dr. Mario will rise above all if this tier list is used for balancing....

So MAYBE, MAYBEEE I'll let it slide...maybe.

For the record I do agree that if they balance it around that list it'll be crazy but...again, my main would be propelled if Ike was any indicator ;3

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Spoiler

Take it nowhere, Kirby still wouldn't be more than a side-deviation from Pit/Shulk/Brawler who offer greater strengths even with greater air speed.On top of that increasing his air speed goes against what he is, which is why you'll probably never see it accepted in a threat like the Community Patch Project.
If we're playing hypothetics though, you'll be able to punish whiffs from your air baiting properly, possibly actually follow your u-airs/F-airs up on a real level and be able to cross-up without feeling like an idiot. Finally sword users won't just throw out an F-air to stop your edgeguard knowing you lack the momentum to weave in.

You want Kirbys main shortcomings in the context of Smash 4?
utilt falling off quickly, his multijab getting jumped out off ridiculously easy compared to everyone else. U-air getting beat out by everything and its mom, opting to play aerial footsies with your jump despite your air speed because your ground range leaves something to be desired (except oddly enough in a fair amount of "top" MU's). Inhale being impractical, Hammer Flip being unnecessarily situational, Final cutter sucks, Stone takes forever to transform. D-throw does almost nothing important. You can solve/mitigate 3/4 special qualms with Customs. Utilt isn't a real issue and is me nitpicking. U-air needs Jesus. aerial footsies is cool, too bad he lacks command grab (oh wait Customs).

Tl;dr: I'd allow Kirby his custom moveset, and not complain since nothings supposed to be perfect.

Interesting... sorta makes it seem like Kirby has a flawed design. Being forced to the air when your air game is.... that... Certainly not desirable

64 Kirby, where you at...

I don't know if it's just seeing a few limited opinions but is Diddy causing a lot more anger than Rosalina ever did? I wonder why this might be.

We can actual control our characters now.

Nobody claims anybody was toxic.

The only complaints we commonly hear is that Sonic is poorly designed and Lucario is overtuned (even that we don't really hear anymore, although still true).

Diddy is super good. When he's good to the point where we remove stages from our ruleset and that we create a Banana Grab Limit rule, I'll bite about the toxicity of the matter.

Do You Did Wit It certainly doesn't have the same ring to it either.

 

[Shaya]

Oh sorry, Villager existing almost needing us to re-add an LGL to this game is why I consider him toxic.
Villager is a character designed to plank you for 8 minutes straight with near impunity. He, before anyone else, is why I'm hesitant about custom specials being legal.
Please don't let others above him get nerfed until he's the best choice.

Can I ask how Dancing Blade is "supposed" to work? It still seems to me to be pretty consistent (maybe I'm just bad at DIing out, wouldn't surprise me). I don't really play Marth/Lucina (in fact they're two of my worst characters) but I don't see anything wrong with the move. Unless you're just comparing it to Brawl (but even then I didn't feel it was overpowered; I could usually escape before the last hit).

First hit doesn't lead to any second hits whatsoever if it hits at a certain point of the strike.
None of the second strikes lead into the third strike reliably except the third upper, which very early stops following up into any final hits. Second strike forward and third strike down do not actually link between prior hits and after hits, nearly ever.
After 70-80%, dancing blade mostly stops working on the entire cast. Considering one of it's main selling points for Marth is it's clearing of the stale move queue, fact is, it cannot be used for that at all when you'd want it to.

 

[Locke 06]

Its been a little while since I've messed around with them, so forgive me if I'm wrong there.

I was referring more to Dream Land 1 or so. Also, I mean, of course his air speed will be lower than his run speed so the whole comparison there doesn't really work well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giWzzjEgGIM&feature=player_detailpage#t=888

This is not that bad when compared to his run speed. In Smash tho...

Edit: This is probably better

Honestly... I don't see a lot of running. He's walking in a lot of it if I'm not mistaken (if not, then I just haven't played Dream Land 1 in way too long). I grew up on Superstar, so that's what I'm basing my air speed off of. I don't have Smash in front of me right now, but I think they got his walk/run/air speed pretty similar to what I remember Superstar being. Air speed is similar to walk speed, which isn't anything to write home about. Of course his air speed is lower than his run speed (as is his walk speed)... what the comparison was supposed to do was show exactly how much slower and noticeable it is (which is significantly slower).

Despite villager being ridiculous...he's at least more interesting too watch then DhD.
I'd be more worried if Top tier was Pacman and Duck Hunt Dog. Cluttering the stage with their inane ****, while trying to force approaches that aren't going to happen.

Duck Hunt is one of the most interesting characters to watch. He has the single most unique projectile game that fosters insane creativity. Sounds to me like you haven't been watching good Duck Hunt. He's better than a braindead Diddy flowchart.

 

[Untouch]

Why are they making a results list based off of tournies this early?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If you think Duck Hunt vs Pacman or DHD dittos will be exciting I just don't know what to say.
Theres a Can, a trampoline and a hydrant on the stage. With a Frisbee in the air and a yellow ball cycling through fruit

What kind of approaches come out of that cluster...

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Despite villager being ridiculous...he's at least more interesting too watch then DhD.
I'd be more worried if Top tier was Pacman and Duck Hunt Dog. Cluttering the stage with their inane ****, while trying to force approaches that aren't going to happen.

lol im just hoping eople start noticing samus shes pretty nifty this game being able to actualy zone and all

 

[Jabejazz]

lol im just hoping eople start noticing samus shes pretty nifty this game being able to actualy zone and all

Meeeeeeeeeeh

 

[Spirst]

Despite villager being ridiculous...he's at least more interesting too watch then DhD.
I'd be more worried if Top tier was Pacman and Duck Hunt Dog. Cluttering the stage with their inane ****, while trying to force approaches that aren't going to happen.

Yes, because DH is such a boring and campy character with little else. There's no way the character can have any creativity because I haven't seen it in the 3 DH vids I've seen and from the people in For Glory.

Come on, already. Why do people still believe this about the character without giving him the time of day? I disagree Villager is more interesting to watch then DH. The latter has more traps and mixups than you would think and at a higher level where the players can do more than just camp (which isn't even that effective to be honest considering the speed of the projectiles), he's really interesting to watch as a mind game character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh sorry, Villager existing almost needing us to re-add an LGL to this game is why I consider him toxic.
Villager is a character designed to plank you for 8 minutes straight with near impunity.

I would have agreed with this before the patch. I think Villager's Lloid glitch was pivotal to his ability to plank. Without it, I've been able to cut through his bullcrap in most matchups and make him fight me.

Why are they making a results list based off of tournies this early?

Yeah, it's absurd.

Fortunately us westerners are infinitely wiser and would never do such a thing.

 

[Jabejazz]

Yes, because DH is such a boring and campy character with little else. There's no way the character can have any creativity because I haven't seen it in the 3 DH vids I've seen and from the people in For Glory.

Come on, already. Why do people still believe this about the character without giving him the time of day? I disagree Villager is more interesting to watch then DH. The latter has more traps and mixups than you would think and at a higher level where the players can do more than just camp (which isn't even that effective to be honest considering the speed of the projectiles), he's really interesting to watch as a mind game character.

I think you guys are missing the second part of his post, which is really hard to disagree with.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Meeeeeeeeeeh

i dunno she might not be fantastic but she seems very well designed. similar to pit honestly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yeah, it's absurd.

Fortunately us westerners are infinitely wiser and would never do such a thing.

No. We just make tier lists off of one competitive player's opinion after a couple of hours with a demo build several months before the game is released.

 

[Kofu]

Oh sorry, Villager existing almost needing us to re-add an LGL to this game is why I consider him toxic.
Villager is a character designed to plank you for 8 minutes straight with near impunity. He, before anyone else, is why I'm hesitant about custom specials being legal.
Please don't let others above him get nerfed until he's the best choice.

What nerfs would you give him? Beyond his customs his moveset seems solid but not overpowered, especially with his awful grab and meh ground game. And if Little Mac can end his planking, it really doesn't seem that strong to me. I dunno, I'm not an amazing Villager and from the videos I've seen most Villagers aren't playing a planking playstyle.

First hit doesn't lead to any second hits whatsoever if it hits at a certain point of the strike.
None of the second strikes lead into the third strike reliably except the third upper, which very early stops following up into any final hits. Second strike forward and third strike down do not actually link between prior hits and after hits, nearly ever.
After 70-80%, dancing blade mostly stops working on the entire cast. Considering one of it's main selling points for Marth is it's clearing of the stale move queue, fact is, it cannot be used for that at all when you'd want it to.

Not linking at lower percents is a legitimate concern (what would you use to escape it, incidentally? jump?). But at higher percents.... eh. I really don't feel bad for Marth that he can no longer refresh his moves in a way no one else in the cast can with a single move.

I dunno, it feels more like you're just complaining that Marth no longer has some of the absurd stuff that made him strong in Brawl (amazing NAir, SH double FAir, you said Dancing Blade was a top 5 move I believe) when he's still a solid character design with great disjoints and ridiculous kill power with tippers. The fact that his design is so straightforward but still effective is a testament to the character.

But I'm having Villager/mediocre player bias too, so I can't really call you out here.

I would have agreed with this before the patch. I think Villager's Lloid glitch was pivotal to his ability to plank. Without it, I've been able to cut through his bullcrap in most matchups and make him fight me.

It still seems to glitch occasionally by giving way too much knockback (damage seems the same though). I haven't seen it happen on the ledge; it usually happens when someone attacks it as it spawns. I feel kind of bad when I get a kill from it lol.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No. We just make tier lists off of one competitive player's opinion after a couple of hours with a demo build several months before the game is released.

mario top seven

 

[Shaya]

I'm sure that japanese list is opinion based, but what Gheb was trying to highlight was that they would tend to take tournament results (even if they are few) as more indicative than theoretically slicing the elephant into meta-cohesion (i.e. well this character is better than Y because he does better against Diddy Kong!).

What nerfs would you give him? Beyond his customs his moveset seems solid but not overpowered, especially with his awful grab and meh ground game. And if Little Mac can end his planking, it really doesn't seem that strong to me. I dunno, I'm not an amazing Villager and from the videos I've seen most Villagers aren't playing a planking playstyle.

Not linking at lower percents is a legitimate concern (what would you use to escape it, incidentally? jump?). But at higher percents.... eh. I really don't feel bad for Marth that he can no longer refresh his moves in a way no one else in the cast can with a single move.

I dunno, it feels more like you're just complaining that Marth no longer has some of the absurd stuff that made him strong in Brawl (amazing NAir, you said Dancing Blade was a top 5 move I believe) when he's still a solid character design with great disjoints and ridiculous kill power with tippers. The fact that his design is so straightforward but still effective is a testament to the character.

But I'm having Villager/mediocre player bias too, so I can't really call you out here.

I'd prefer villager get deleted . But I'd otherwise not touch him. If anything perhaps making aerial lloyds have weaker specs. Trip sappling with less ground time (or can only trips an opponent once per 'X' seconds).

Eh, Marth has no other move he can use out of a dash that does damage. Aerials are way too restrictive for it. Dancing Blade is Marth's "dash attack" replacement and his core punishing tool. I'm not sure what character you play that I could feasibly compare it too, but let me just make your main bread and butter punish/damage racking tool useless for half a character's stock and we'll see how you feel about it. useless to the extent at which you're PUNISHED FOR HITTING PEOPLE WITH IT

 

[Iron Kraken]

Villager, DHD, and Pacman are toxic because they have strong keepaway/zoning games.
Sonic is toxic because spindash is unreactable.
Sheik is toxic because she never has to commit and OMG needles.
Pikachu is toxic because he's tiny and Quick Attack is too...quick.
Little Mac is toxic because he has super armor on everything and he's boring and dumb, but that's OK because he sucks.
Ness is toxic because he can kill you at 100% with a throw.
Diddy is toxic because he's Diddy.

tl;dr everyone in the game but my character and other characters who aren't that good are toxic, because they have strengths that I can't just press buttons against and win. Unfair, Sakurai pls nerf/ban.

I actually find Villager super fun to watch because he provides a contrast of styles.

I'm just saying if Villager was super OP and everyone used him, then that would be bad. Like if he was the Meta Knight of Smash 4. It just wouldn't be good for the game.

Obviously this isn't a concern though, so Villager is awesome.

The only character in the game I genuinely don't like playing against or watching right now is Sonic. I enjoy every other character. And obviously any character that is overused and overpowered will be less exciting to watch (right now that's Diddy).

 

[Jigglymaster]

I don't understand why Miis can use customs but Palutena can't. Hers are unlocked by default as well. Why is Brawler S Tier but Palutena is D Tier? Psh, inconsistent rules for the lose.

It could be very well because when customization is turned to OFF. Mii fighters can still use their customs while the rest of the cast cannot. And their rules simply may be.

Customization turned to OFF
Mii Fighters allowed.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

almost any competitive match with a heavy is is exciting to me.
ganon hype is real.

 

[Spirst]

I think you guys are missing the second part of his post, which is really hard to disagree with.

That's really character dependent, so I sort of agree but also don't. If it's someone like Ganondorf, they're pretty much forced to approach as they'll be in a losing position otherwise. I feel a lot of public opinion of the character is as it is because there's really not that many people who really understand him. I don't claim to be the best player out there with him but I do feel as if majority of people see his specials more than anything else and rather than analyze the applications of it, they generalize it as "campy" and that's that. It's a shame since he has a lot of potential and room for creativity. Most of what I see on the character is rather negative and single-minded and it's just silly to me.

If your character has a decent projectile (water shuriken, missiles, crash bomb/metal blade), then yeah, forcing approaches isn't going to happen. Other than the clay pigeon (not including one shot burst custom and fast gunmen), DH doesn't have any quick annoying projectiles and the can can be interacted with to pop the other way rendering it useless for that purpose. Goes both ways.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yes, because DH is such a boring and campy character with little else. There's no way the character can have any creativity because I haven't seen it in the 3 DH vids I've seen and from the people in For Glory.

Well as long as you admit you've watched 3 DH videos.
I see absolutely nothing interesting in Pac vs DhD. Two characters known for their stage control who coincidentally don't need to approach each other at any point due to that stage control are both put in a trash situation because Can,Hydrant and Trampoline all work both ways.
Gunners and Hydrants both eat projectiles.
Oh and Pacs CQC outside of Grab is superior. You would think he'd want to approach is the threat of what DhD does once you enter Mid-range wasn't a substantial deterrent to a character who has just as much reason to force DhD to approach as DhD does to him.

So what kind of approach game does eventually arise from this?
It's one thing when a zoner forces you to approach. That's supposed to happen. Even in the case of two zoners, the one with the stronger game brings in the other. There isn't a stronger zoner between the two when it comes between them, the only difference is Pacman will have the better Cqc, have you seen his aerials?

Only thing dumber would be Villager sitting on the ledge throwing rockets for days with his "cant gimp me baby" recovery. Except Villager can take initiative in almost any match up given the strength of his options.

"Creativity"
Virtually every character can be 'creative' at this stage of the game, including Diddy. Dhd is not some special snowflake. Gunner,Villager, Pacman and Rosalina all offer complex possibilities. Who cares. dog is still a bore, so is Rosa. If Apex was saturated with DhD,Pacman and Rosalina I think I'd go watch reruns of The cat in the hat.

 

[Chuva]

There was one DHD at last Xanadu (I think he was named Guy) and it was really hype to watch. The Can by itself can open so many interesting mind game possibilities other than just "this piece of the stage is mine" and the way he kept using projectiles in conjunction with aggressive rushdown made it really entertaining to watch.

In the end, it's all about opinions. I have a good time watching ChrisG's aggressive Morridoom zoning in UMVC3 , but I'm sure the majority despises it. I also never understood why people find Rosalina so boring, especially now that they nerfed some of Luma's lame aspects.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm not sure what character you play that I could feasibly compare it too, but let me just make your main bread and butter punish/damage racking tool useless for half a character's stock and we'll see how you feel about it. useless to the extent at which you're PUNISHED FOR USING IT

Never forget.

 

[Yonder]

Luigi is 17th. *Sniff* Japan knows what's up. I can't see a single character above him that isn't justified though. Looks like Japan has been looking at those tourney results. I like this placement, if he dropped a few spaces lower I wouldn't complain, but he shouldn't be any higher. You went a long way from bottom 5 Luigi.

It's actually pretty decent though. Fox is too high but Japan puts him A tier no matter what so can't change that. Pit feels too high, but I know squat about him [And I hear unfortunately DP is better].

Robin, Ike, Link, and Samus are too low, but not too that higher. Well, maybe Link and Ike could be higher than them anyways. Their customs are insane.

Funny to note Lucina and Marth's tier placements. I think they are higher [But top of the low C. Then again Lucina is basically worthless compared to Marth].

I need someone to explain to me why Mii swordsman is always in a tier of his own. He's bad, but not in his own row bad. At least he has range [bad] projectiles, and a cape. Almost like an improved Doc except without combos...

This tier list is pretty solid though. A few glaring flaws [Most noting marth], but yeah. Go Japan.

almost any competitive match with a heavy is is exciting to me.
ganon hype is real.

Agreed. I can use UFC as a comparison. Featherweight fights are lame to watch, but heavyweights are great to see those one hit KOs that make the crowd go wild.

 

[Spirst]

Well as long as you admit you've watched 3 DH videos.

Yes, not like I play the character or anything.

I see absolutely nothing interesting in Pac vs DhD. Two characters known for their stage control who coincidentally don't need to approach each other at any point due to that stage control are both put in a trash situation because Can,Hydrant and Trampoline all work both ways.
Gunners and Hydrants both eat projectiles.

Not sure about the gunner eating the hydrant as you just reminded me that's the one thing I didn't test vs PacMan but otherwise, hydrants eating a projectile isn't necessarily true. The hydrant remains stagnant once landed and that doesn't stop a SH clay pigeon (smash goes further than tilt), a can simply shot over the hydrant, and the gunmen shots are transcendent priority and just go through it (and villager's tree as well). DH has the zoning advantage and Pac Man will need to approach thus reducing the whole endlessness of the matchup. Bonus Fruit Key goes through everything but with the time it takes to start up, it's not going to be spammed. Every other fruit gets canceled by the can/clay pigeon/gunman. The can doesn't blow up upon getting hit and Pac Man is fighting a losing battle if he's going to rely on the fruit for that.

You would think he'd want to approach is the threat of what DhD does once you enter Mid-range wasn't a substantial deterrent to a character who has just as much reason to force DhD to approach as DhD does to him.

So what kind of approach game does eventually arise from this?
It's one thing when a zoner forces you to approach. That's supposed to happen. Even in the case of two zoners, the one with the stronger game brings in the other. There isn't a stronger zoner between the two when it comes between them.

Not true, see above.

the only difference is Pacman will have the better Cqc, have you seen his aerials?

I don't know if they're disjointed but I know DH definitely has disjointed aerials with the bair autocanceling, the dair being a good roll read punish, and the uair is a KO move. The fair has the most range and spaces a lot of stuff out incredibly well. His airgame isn't really weak either.

As for overall CQC, Pac Man does have the faster tilts and such but DH has a better grab game and fthrow can lead to some followups. Not to mention you can combo the throws with a nearby can.

"Creativity"
Virtually every character can be 'creative' at this stage of the game, including Diddy. Dhd is not some special snowflake. Gunner,Villager, Pacman and Rosalina all offer complex possibilities. Who cares. dog is still a bore, so is Rosa. If Apex was saturated with DhD,Pacman and Rosalina I think I'd go watch reruns of The cat in the hat.

Yes, but that's not the point entirely. While each character has the potential to be creative, some simply have more overall options to work with than others. This game isn't homogenous with each character given the same amount of tools and options. For DH, there's a number of interactions and traps you can setup with the can and gunmen that you simply can't do on other characters due to the uniqueness of the moves and the depth they allow. It's pretty ignorant to form this established opinion of the character and say "who cares, dog is still a bore" without actually taking the time to really examine his options. That's closed-minded thinking.