Character Competitive Impressions

[ParanoidDrone]

Hitting shields is worse (but we still have shield pushback looking good/scaling well, and nerfed grab oos across the cast), but misusing shields is noticeably worse as well.

Possibly a bit off topic, but this seems like something of a theme in Smash 4. Engine mechanics that are powerful if used right but punishable if misused. (I'm thinking of autocancel windows for the most part, there may be others I missed.) I think they wanted to make most actions a real commitment and force you to not just press buttons. Or something like that.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Going back on the WFT talk a couple pages ago.. Has anyone actually tried using RAR Fair in a match? If so what were your results?

spike kill.

 

[NairWizard]

I think they wanted to make most actions a real commitment and force you to not just press buttons.

disagrees

 

[ParanoidDrone]

disagrees

I literally haven't used her since Melee so IDK.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

disagrees

shiek can never be in a relation ship because she does not know how to commit.

 

[Locke 06]

You see an action from an opponent, a movement. You don't know what the movement is, there's no way for a human being to react in time.
You shield, it's safe. Brawl has taught us well (no it hasn't )

This shield reaction is going to be about 10+ frames into that roll someone executed.
You shield dropping is going to happen at frame 28 (assuming 10 frame reaction speed), while the roller is behind you free to act earlier.

So, you're saying shielding on reaction to a roll is bad. Your original post was "forward rolling on reaction to shield ... advantage to the 'agressor.'" What you meant to say is that shielding on reaction to forward rolling puts you at a disadvantage. Correct?

 

[FimPhym]

I love that having the discipline to do nothing or walk up, which would lose to any attack, is rewarded against people that flinch or fear you. Very similar to other fighting games. Hell, in super turbo if you crouch block your hurt box is larger and you will not be able to punish things that would whiff if you'd had the courage to stand in place. Grapplers walking up to someone scared of lows to land a grab is classic.

Edit: oh hey and we were just saying a few tens of pages back how doing nothing is the best thing against rolls too. Keeping calm is super strong!

 

[Thinkaman]

I was good at Brawl because it rewarded patience. Virtually all defensive options are penalized in the face of doing nothing.

Smash 4's faster run speed, superior punish tool (good dash attacks), and air dodge landing lag make those defensive options way less central, but much of the value of patience remains.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I love that having the discipline to do nothing or walk up, which would lose to any attack, is rewarded against people that flinch or fear you. Very similar to other fighting games. Hell, in super turbo if you crouch block your hurt box is larger and you will not be able to punish things that would whiff if you'd had the courage to stand in place. Grapplers walking up to someone scared of lows to land a grab is classic.

Edit: oh hey and we were just saying a few tens of pages back how doing nothing is the best thing against rolls too. Keeping calm is super strong!

This is why I like Smash 4, tbh. I get this feeling of a traditional fighter's risk/reward in just about everything I do. It's a nice change of pace.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kofu]

The fact that doing nothing is a good tactic is partially why good movement and/or range is so potent in Smash 4. It's a basic concept in Smash: you wait until the opponent does something in error in neutral, then you capitalize on it and shift momentum in your favor. Characters that can punish from a distance with projectiles or can rush in personally are scary, because even a minor mistake that is usually safe can be made unsafe. It's partially why Sonic is so frustrating: between his run speed and up-b, there's basically nowhere that you can be safe from his retaliation if he thinks he can rush in and punish you. Only characters with silly ground control options like Diddy, Pac-Man, and Villager can really compete with it.

(With that logic is Pac-Man a good choice against Sonic?)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

lol walking in this game does not lose to very much if you lab it out.
vitually every option if availiable.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I think that Pikachu has the hardest time against sword characters (minus Robin, I think, and maybe minus Marth), such as Ike, Shulk, and Pit. What do you guys think about sword characters in general? How viable are they, what are their bad matchups, etc. (bad matchups is one I've been looking into).

The characters to consider here are:

, , , / , /

You remembered both Pits and both Marths but forgot both Links? Ouch.

I feel Link loses to Pikachu because nothing Link has is ever fast enough -- not even his zoning. Honestly, I'd rather fight Diddy. At least I can jab Diddy. But the rat's all over me like a bad rash. Link loses to Shiek's ninja-like rushdown, and Pika can emulate that.

Toon Link vs Pikachu would be less lop-sided.

Link vs some other swordsmen: eh, Marth beats Link, Link beats Robin. Seriously, just outside of Arcfire distance is perfect zoning distance for Link. He can even run faster. And his grab might not even be worse because of it. Pit beats Link's everything: zoning, cqc, defense, recovery... everything.

 

[Chuva]

If this whole shield business catches up, it probably wont affect Diddy and Ness' reign of terror much, given how they have setups for their grab games (banana, PK Fire) and don't necessarily rely on grabbing shields. If only their AC F-air (and N-air in Ness case) didn't wall a lot of characters into oblivion, they could at least be vulnerable in the spacing department.

If anything it's just one less option for them to exploit.

 

[HeroMystic]

The fact that doing nothing is a good tactic is partially why good movement and/or range is so potent in Smash 4. It's a basic concept in Smash: you wait until the opponent does something in error in neutral, then you capitalize on it and shift momentum in your favor. Characters that can punish from a distance with projectiles or can rush in personally are scary, because even a minor mistake that is usually safe can be made unsafe. It's partially why Sonic is so frustrating: between his run speed and up-b, there's basically nowhere that you can be safe from his retaliation if he thinks he can rush in and punish you. Only characters with silly ground control options like Diddy, Pac-Man, and Villager can really compete with it.

While I personally believe Shield-Dashing is still going to be a solid method to approach a target, I agree with all of this. I learned awhile back that movement and positional play means a lot in Smash 4. While it did in Melee/Brawl as well, it has a much stronger factor here since defensive options have been nerfed quite a bit (rolls being an exception, though you can say it counts as movement as well).

 

[PK Gaming]

Still true, it's just that Mario's smashes are kind of fearsome and not too high-risk (up-smash and d-smash in particular). Mario's jab is also better than Pikachu's jab in CQC situations (well, most jabs are better than Pikachu's jab; it has use, but it's situational). Offstage is definitely in Pikachu's favor, though, loss of full cape stalling was huge.

Followup (on a slightly different topic): I think that Pikachu has the hardest time against sword characters (minus Robin, I think, and maybe minus Marth), such as Ike, Shulk, and Pit. What do you guys think about sword characters in general? How viable are they, what are their bad matchups, etc. (bad matchups is one I've been looking into).

The characters to consider here are:

, , , / , /

Anyone had a sword character tier list in mind? A tier list made exclusively of sword characters, that is (poor Lucina).

They're really cool and fun to use

Oh, you wanted a competitive analysis of them?

I think they're really cool and fun to use

 

[Z'zgashi]

You remembered both Pits and both Marths but forgot both Links? Ouch.

I feel Link loses to Pikachu because nothing Link has is ever fast enough -- not even his zoning. Honestly, I'd rather fight Diddy. At least I can jab Diddy. But the rat's all over me like a bad rash. Link loses to Shiek's ninja-like rushdown, and Pika can emulate that.

Toon Link vs Pikachu would be less lop-sided.

Link vs some other swordsmen: eh, Marth beats Link, Link beats Robin. Seriously, just outside of Arcfire distance is perfect zoning distance for Link. He can even run faster. And his grab might not even be worse because of it. Pit beats Link's everything: zoning, cqc, defense, recovery... everything.

And he forgot Meat Night

RIP in peace you silly old bat

 

[deepseadiva]

Going back on the WFT talk a couple pages ago.. Has anyone actually tried using RAR Fair in a match? If so what were your results?

It wasn't really consistent on the 3DS. I've been trolling the WFT for footage.

One day our six-packed savior wil come.

 

[Iron Kraken]

How are you supposed to punish your opponent if they try to attack you from the air when you're on the ground if you don't shield and then punish with either shield grab or attack out of shield? My shield is my best friend against characters like Shulk and Ike and their assaults of short hops and Fairs.

 

[HeroMystic]

How are you supposed to punish your opponent if they try to attack you from the air when you're on the ground if you don't shield and then punish with either shield grab or attack out of shield? My shield is my best friend against characters like Shulk and Ike and their assaults of short hops and Fairs.

Obviously if they're consistently attacking your shield and you can punish them for it, then don't stop doing it until they adapt.

 

[Chuva]

How are you supposed to punish your opponent if they try to attack you from the air when you're on the ground if you don't shield and then punish with either shield grab or attack out of shield? My shield is my best friend against characters like Shulk and Ike and their assaults of short hops and Fairs.

Depending on the characters in this situation, you could always use anti-air options. As Marth, I find myself using Ftilts (and sometimes jab) to stop aerial approaches quite often; Ness can beat a lot of aerials with SH Nair on reaction etc

 

[deepseadiva]

How are you supposed to punish an attack from your opponent if they try to attack you with an aerial from the air when you're grounded on the ground if you don't shield their attack and then punish their attack with either shield grab or attack out of shield on the ground after the attack on your shield?.

Simple.

Waveland your shield after shielding the attack after you notice the hitstun end lag has autocancelled on the grounded aerial unless it was a reverse RAR aerial reverse which in that case you would immediately drop shield and perform a pivoted dash lag-cancelled reverse grab out of shield.

 

[Thinkaman]

Simple.

Waveland your shield after shielding the attack after you notice the hitstun end lag has autocancelled on the grounded aerial unless it was a reverse RAR aerial reverse which in that case you would immediately drop shield and perform a pivoted dash lag-cancelled reverse grab out of shield.

And then you just transition to proxy 6-pool. Easy.

 

[-RedX-]

Wtf did I just read.

 

[Browny]

Simple.

Waveland your shield after shielding the attack after you notice the hitstun end lag has autocancelled on the grounded aerial unless it was a reverse RAR aerial reverse which in that case you would immediately drop shield and perform a pivoted dash lag-cancelled reverse grab out of shield.

Instructions unclear

This unlocked Ridley, then bricked my console.

 

[chipndip]

How are you supposed to punish your opponent if they try to attack you from the air when you're on the ground if you don't shield and then punish with either shield grab or attack out of shield? My shield is my best friend against characters like Shulk and Ike and their assaults of short hops and Fairs.

1) Why wouldn't you?

2) Anti-air options that beat out aerials.

3) Seriously...see 1...>_>

 

[rd1023]

After playing more, I really think Link is at least mid tier, if not upper mid. Everything seems so much more fluid than before, he actually has good speed on his attacks (especially down smash and nair). He has 3 very good projectiles, and his shield does a lot of work now. Sure he's not the most mobile character but his zoning and neutral game are fantastic and he has some pretty brutal finishers also. All of his smash attacks are solid ko options, as well as his new dash attack. His roll is also pretty decent. To me he has all of the tools to become a viable character. On top of this, his recovery is the best out of any smash game he's been in. Thanks to the short fuse of the bombs he can easily recover using bombs and he has a much much better up b for recovering (not so much for killing). Just my two cents though.

 

[Jabejazz]

How are you supposed to punish your opponent if they try to attack you from the air when you're on the ground if you don't shield and then punish with either shield grab or attack out of shield? My shield is my best friend against characters like Shulk and Ike and their assaults of short hops and Fairs.

Please, I just woke up.

So, not commiting to anything is the best tactic? Well I'll be damned.

Bruce Wayne is Batman.

 

[san.]

I forgot to increase the screen size, but here are a few movements that Mii Gunner can do. Don't take it at face value, but for the potential that Mii Gunner has:

2 things I forgot to do in that video were multiple B-reverses from neutral B and pivot to sliding dtilt/utilt/ftilt/dsmash. Sheik's upB can also be healed for 20%, but I couldn't get it before it died.

I have 4 different Mii Swordsman of short sizes of various widths and two of minor adjustments in Heights. In addition to my Tall/Default. I've been playing with him.
I think I was the first to mention D-throw being a relevant (albeit low as hell damage) throw as well. I've never ignored him. Nor do I believe he gets straight up destroyed.
However He is not as good as the other swordsman, and I do believe that is without question.
There is a clear lack of polish in certain aspects of his kit (Hello there Neutral and Side specials). It seems all the power is forced into his ground game + u-air for the most part however his ground game is going to be beat out by Link. Shulk has the speed to punish anything he does. I still think his cape is great given none of his other disjointed friends bring that to the table so it sets him apart and gives him a dangerous edgeguard option.



Like I said before my observation of S4 tiers is that the lowest players will still have viable matchups against the majority of the cast and be there for lack of potency against a sufficient part of the prevalent meta.
I do feel that Swordfighter meets those qualifications.

If I was to be a list of Sman vs Sman MU's. I think it would look different.

I do think there are questions to be asked. There hasn't really been much of an effort for figuring out any high level analysis on the character, so it's still in a black box state imo. Small Miis have high run speed and less lag after a grab than any other character in the game. Air speed ranges from decent as a small+heavy Mii to excellent as a small+tiny Mii. Those alone raises an eyebrow before talking about the moveset. Then I learned that there are quite a few decent ways to combo and setup with him.

All Side Bs are pretty bad, but many characters have some poor specials. Mii Swordsman has anti-camp specials available that helps mitigate basic weaknesses that some of the others possess, at the possible cost of less dominant strengths.

 

[Terotrous]

Shields in brawl
1-3: power shield
4-7: locked into shield
8-14: Shield drop lag (7 frames)

Shields in smash 4:
1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)

Just so I fully understand this frame data, you can only OOS once you reach the "Shield Drop Lag", right? (though OOSing has no additional lag)

I forgot to increase the screen size, but here are a few movements that Mii Gunner can do. Don't take it at face value, but for the potential that Mii Gunner has

Okay I obviously need to switch to Grenade. I like the Charge Shot for utility but there's just too much movement value there.

 

[Nobie]

I do think there are questions to be asked. There hasn't really been much of an effort for figuring out any high level analysis on the character, so it's still in a black box state imo. Small Miis have high run speed and less lag after a grab than any other character in the game. Air speed ranges from decent as a small+heavy Mii to excellent as a small+tiny Mii. Those alone raises an eyebrow before talking about the moveset. Then I learned that there are quite a few decent ways to combo and setup with him.

All Side Bs are pretty bad, but many characters have some poor specials. Mii Swordsman has anti-camp specials available that helps mitigate basic weaknesses that some of the others possess, at the possible cost of less dominant strengths.

What do you think of Side B 2 (the somersault one) on Mii Swordsman? It appears to me to be a bit too slow to use regularly (and there's also the risk of SDing off the stage), but it has some serious kill power and for a movement option it's pretty unique due to the combination of horizontal range and the small arc it has. Just messing around against CPU Shulk, I noticed that the attack would often sail over and past his Down B even while triggering the counter.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Speaking of sword wielders, may I ask what the general consensuses of the Link vs. Ike and the Marth vs. Ike match-ups are? Mostly even?

I remember from lurking the SSBB forums a while back that the former was generally in Ike's favor. How much has this match-up changed in this iteration, considering Link's improvements? Did his buffs make him strong enough to beat Ike this time around, assuming both characters are being played at their peak potentials?

What about for Marth vs. Ike? While it was definitely in Marth's favor in SSBB, was Marth nerfed to the point that the match-up would be considered more even?

I'm genuinely curious. ^-^

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What do you think of Side B 2 (the somersault one) on Mii Swordsman? It appears to me to be a bit too slow to use regularly (and there's also the risk of SDing off the stage), but it has some serious kill power and for a movement option it's pretty unique due to the combination of horizontal range and the small arc it has. Just messing around against CPU Shulk, I noticed that the attack would often sail over and past his Down B even while triggering the counter.

Airborne assault is side 1. Its one of the most unsafe moves on shield in the game. Possibly worse then flare blitz in that respect.
If they shield they get a free smash with charge on you.
Slash launcher does no damage stops at the enemy you wont grabgrab the ledge if you hit them right before)however I like shuriken which has no purpose with chakram. So Slash gets picked up just cus Chakram gets redundant.
His Neutral and side specials are all poot.
Frankly I think skyward slash is his best up special. It halting you in the air can cause whiffs and its distance is acceptable.

You can kind of take any side given they're all poor but chakram + shuriken makes no sense. Airborne is extremely unsafe making it highly questionable.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I forgot to increase the screen size, but here are a few movements that Mii Gunner can do. Don't take it at face value, but for the potential that Mii Gunner has:

2 things I forgot to do in that video were multiple B-reverses from neutral B and pivot to sliding dtilt/utilt/ftilt/dsmash. Sheik's upB can also be healed for 20%, but I couldn't get it before it died.




I do think there are questions to be asked. There hasn't really been much of an effort for figuring out any high level analysis on the character, so it's still in a black box state imo. Small Miis have high run speed and less lag after a grab than any other character in the game. Air speed ranges from decent as a small+heavy Mii to excellent as a small+tiny Mii. Those alone raises an eyebrow before talking about the moveset. Then I learned that there are quite a few decent ways to combo and setup with him.

All Side Bs are pretty bad, but many characters have some poor specials. Mii Swordsman has anti-camp specials available that helps mitigate basic weaknesses that some of the others possess, at the possible cost of less dominant strengths.

srry but its videos like these where i think we need to regulate the sizes of mii fighters.
just thinking balanced wise we might have to make gunner max hieght. just because any character who is able to make a wall of hit boxes is tall. and not nearly as fast.
its videos like these that make me think miis should be banned because of this. since we are only going to use the optimal size arrangements witch i think sakurai was trying to avoid.

i dont even think they were ment for competitive play considering i doubt sakurai is gunna ever balance patch these guys. meaning sooner or later miis will probably flood and stagnate the game. because while the top tiers will be toned down and tweaked miis will remain un touched and a leg above the cast.

 

[san.]

Mii Gunner isn't even top 15 I hear, no reason to ban

 

[Terotrous]

srry but its videos like these where i think we need to regulate the sizes of mii fighters.
just thinking balanced wise we might have to make gunner max hieght. just because any character who is able to make a wall of hit boxes is tall. and not nearly as fast.
its videos like these that make me think miis should be banned because of this. since we are only going to use the optimal size arrangements witch i think sakurai was trying to avoid.

i dont even think they were ment for competitive play considering i doubt sakurai is gunna ever balance patch these guys. meaning sooner or later miis will probably flood and stagnate the game. because while the top tiers will be toned down and tweaked miis will remain un touched and a leg above the cast.

That is some pretty hardcore salt for a video showing someone playing against the AI. Maybe we should at least try having some actual matches with this character first?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

That is some pretty hardcore salt for a video showing someone playing against the AI. Maybe we should at least try having some actual matches with this character first?

salt? perhaps i will admit that i dont like miis. but i dont like many characters that got into smash. cough paultena cough pacman cough.
but im not advocating there bann since i know its not a developers nightmare to balance them.

trying to balance a creat characte option is just asking for players to find a way to break it.

 

[Terotrous]

salt? perhaps i will admit that i dont like miis. but i dont like many characters that got into smash. cough paultena cough pacman cough.
but im not advocating there bann since i know its not a developers nightmare to balance them.

trying to balance a creat characte option is just asking for players to find a way to break it.

There's honestly not that much customization to them. You can be a little faster in exchange for a little less reach. Beyond that they just have the same sort of custom specials everyone else has.

And the Miis did get some adjustments in the balance patch, anyway.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What about for Marth vs. Ike? While it was definitely in Marth's favor in SSBB, was Marth nerfed to the point that the match-up would be considered more even?

I'm genuinely curious. ^-^

Neutral I would call close to even. Both have good tilts. Marth has better mobility, aerials, and Dancing Blade to consistently punish mistakes in footsies, but in close range then Ike getting about 11 damage on Jab and about 20 damage from early throw combos puts him slightly ahead there.

Marth's edgeguarding and juggles are really scary for Ike still. Some of Ike's raw power in KOing in this matchup is a lot riskier when he has to be very respectful of counter before land trapping Marth. Ike doesn't have great tools for edgeguarding Marth's low recovery without customs, while Marth can harass Ike offstage pretty hard with Counter. Ike unfortunately does not get nearly the same benefits from Counter in this matchup that Marth does, so he mostly has to deal with Marth's hitboxes head on with his own attacks, which in the air is not easy due to his startup.

I'd say this is still clearly in Marth's favor on default settings mostly due to reward. Both can function in neutral. Marth's reward is INSANE outside of him having a small slump in damage dealing at low percents, when Marth's traps and KO setups are still kinda ridiculous, and Counter is very effective for him in this matchup. Ike can build damage a bit better and more safely than Marth to some extent, but there aren't as many situations where he can capitalize on Marth for the KO reliably.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Ike beats Marth pretty clearly this time around, actually. Ike wins in Neutral which is where the majority of matchups are decided in general. One of Ike's biggest problems in Brawl against Marth was dealing with Marth's pokes and pressure from a defensive position, especially out of shield. From shielding Ike didn't have too many solid responses to just about anything Marth could throw out in neutral and as we all know shielding was surpremely powerful and essential in Brawls gameplay.

Marth's pokes are nowhere near as scary as they used to be and trades are still awfully lopsided in Ike's favor. Unless Marth gets that birthday surprise gimp on Ike he'll be fighting an uphill battle. There's no way Marth wins this matchup now imo ... and that's not even taking Ike's custom specials into account.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There's honestly not that much customization to them. You can be a little faster in exchange for a little less reach. Beyond that they just have the same sort of custom specials everyone else has.

And the Miis did get some adjustments in the balance patch, anyway.

can u clarify? cause litterally nothing about them in the cummunity patch notes.
and yes theres a whole lot of variables for a developer to consider.

knock back values for every size
hit stun values for every size
shield size
damage percent for every freaking move on every size
how every size corspond to other members of the cast. (the most imposible part to balance.)
what combos them at what size.
what range each move has at what size.
what different combos are there at each size.
does a the moves set cover his weakness entierly for each size ( it should not)
whats the hurt box of the miis at each size.
is the damage and kill power proportionate for each size.

this is a **** load of work just to balance one character much less three. and there so much more things this is just a taste.