Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Shield changes mean that choosing not to hit a shield is actually giving you more frame advantage than hitting shield.
Our mindsets in and around shielding at this stage of the meta are definitely... inadequate.

To someone who wants to shield, if they either don't power shield, nor have their shield hit at all in the first 12 frames of it, they've ****ed up very very hard and are susceptible to the full force of... love.

Shielding is still good for people attacking you, but it's actually significantly worse in "neutral". The galore of people's bad shield habits are going to be capitalised on over time. It's probably a lot to do with why Dash grabs, and those who get the most out of them are doing the best, because we're yet to adjust to shielding making you a sitting duck.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

you mean soft land into grab. Presuming soft landing is 1-3 Frames and shield drop is 7.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

excuse my ignorance. i dont know much about little mac but dosent down tilt to ko punch make little mac significantly more threating in the hands of some one who know what there doing with the character?

 

[Shaya]

excuse my ignorance. i dont know much about little mac but dosent down tilt to ko punch make little mac significantly more threating in the hands of some one who know what there doing with the character?

Sure.
How does little mac get himself a down tilt again? It's fast but it's one of his shortest ranged moves. He kinda relies on either dash power shielding it (he has laggy dash to shield though) or rolling/spot dodging it. If Mac has a KO punch up, isn't it obvious to the opponent that they should avoid things such as down tilt?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Sure.
How does little mac get himself a down tilt again? It's fast but it's one of his shortest ranged moves. He kinda relies on either dash power shielding it (he has laggy dash to shield though) or rolling/spot dodging it. If Mac has a KO punch up, isn't it obvious to the opponent that they should avoid things such as down tilt?

i guess but it just seems like its the better option over just throwing out the punch. on top of punishing rolls witch any half decent player will do to avoid getting ko punched it just seems to make the move a whole lot more reliable. it helps that its also like a frame 3 tilt.

 

[Locke 06]

Shield changes mean that choosing not to hit a shield is actually giving you more frame advantage than hitting shield.
Our mindsets in and around shielding at this stage of the meta are definitely... inadequate.

To someone who wants to shield, if they either don't power shield, nor have their shield hit at all in the first 12 frames of it, they've ****ed up very very hard and are susceptible to the full force of... love.

Shielding is still good for people attacking you, but it's actually significantly worse in "neutral". The galore of people's bad shield habits are going to be capitalised on over time. It's probably a lot to do with why Dash grabs, and those who get the most out of them are doing the best, because we're yet to adjust to shielding making you a sitting duck.

You still can act OOS though. If I whiff a shield/it doesn't get hit in those 12 frames), I can jump, grab, roll, keep shielding, or spot dodge. You have almost as many options shielding as I have in a full dash (sacrificing dash attack/grab and mobility for literal blocking of anything that doesn't grab). The 7 frames of shield drop is significant, as is the required 10 (I thought it was 10... is it 12 now?) frames before you can shield drop, but this is similar to dashing in that you need to stop before you can do any move you want. Now... a full dash isn't great (which is why foxtrotting is a thing), but it's certainly not awful.

I think your analysis is correct in that we need to adjust our shielding habits, lest we become peons to our Diddy & Ness overlords, but it's still not committing to much and a whiffed shield does not mean you are a sitting duck nor are you susceptible to the full force of... love.

 

[Shaya]

but it's still not committing to much and a whiffed shield does not mean you are a sitting duck nor are you susceptible to the full force of... love.

Yes you can do out of shield actions, but shield drop actions are what are most scary.
In particular shield dropping into a reshield being a top level power shield technique heavily abused in Brawl.

But hell, let me just tack on 25% more lag onto anything you like to do (even if it's a seemingly low commitment move) and you'll see significant impacts. Last time I checked you're moving in your dash and aren't moving while you shield.

Nothing inherently different from fox trotting to just running.

 

[NairWizard]

@ Shaya is clearly my twin after all, says things that I didn't even know I was thinking but wanted to say.

 

[Shaya]

I probably just need to make a visual diagram of some sort to explain it, but without a WiiU I cannot be bothered.

But in essence,
seeing someone shield (or reading someone is going to shield), kinda does lock them up for close to half a second ("sitting duck" cannot be any more accurate I think). Yes they can do out of shield actions, but those are a lot easier to understand/cover/be ready for because once a shield is in the picture, the distances/range of things are static.

Yes you can roll forward or back any time of that shield, but you know exactly where they're going to end up. Jumping? well it isn't a dash jump by any means.
Grab OoS? That is so 2001-2013. Otherwise what is someone doing when they shield? They're waiting for a hit confirm, something we don't actually need to be giving when shielding in itself is weaker (being coerced into attacking shields to 'cover' them doing a shield dropping action which they cannot do for an extra 4 frames this game).

I feel like in Brawl hitting shields was about being very skilled so you didn't get punished for doing so (spacing properly/timing things for auto cancels). Shield stun is lower in this game, so hitting people's shields is almost universally worse (compensated a lot by Grab OoS being weaker for everyone). Yet the action of shielding itself, something people do as a habit or as a 'safety' thing (it's a 1 frame action afterall) is weaker and yet we're still treating shields the same as we did in Brawl.

 

[Locke 06]

Yes you can do out of shield actions, but shield drop actions are what are most scary.
In particular shield dropping into a reshield being a top level power shield technique heavily abused in Brawl.

But hell, let me just tack on 25% more lag onto anything you like to do (even if it's a seemingly low commitment move) and you'll see significant impacts. Last time I checked you're moving in your dash and aren't moving while you shield.

Nothing inherently different from fox trotting to just running.

All points are fair. I just thought you guys were overreacting to it a bit. Nothing I said was revolutionary or anything, but it seemed like you guys were saying spot dodging and rolling were less commitment, which I was confused about. (Mobility is of course why you dash. Same thing can be said about shielding and blocking attacks)

Also, out of fox trot, you can stutter fsmash, dash dance, perfect pivot, and foxtrot again. Isn't that different from a full dash?

Wait. I just realized that you confirmed it's now 12 frames until you can shield drop. -___-

 

[Shaya]

Shields in brawl
1-3: power shield
4-7: locked into shield
8-14: Shield drop lag (7 frames)

Shields in smash 4:
1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)

minimum shielding time never applies if your shield gets hit by anything.
grab oos seems to be universally 7 frames at best, up from 6.
Shield stun is lower, so on the aggressor's side of things, hitting a shield is actually less safe than it was in Brawl.
But when we're looking at sub 20 frame actions, single frame differences have huge impacts in relation to reactive play. I attack shields to cover people for their shield drop actions that I cannot react to, yet in this game I have more time to react to those things, hence I don't need to "gamble" with an attack on read/reaction to someone dash shielding.

 

[Luco]

Hmm, so 4 more frames. It's definitely more punishable, what it probably means is we'll see more diversity between characters where it's still more advantageous to shield in most situations vs characters who prefer to do other things because shielding will put them in a precarious position.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

sooo shields are stronger yet they are worse?

 

[Shaya]

Hitting shields is worse (but we still have shield pushback looking good/scaling well, and nerfed grab oos across the cast), but misusing shields is noticeably worse as well.

Shielding and doing a shield drop action was something a majority of human beings could not reliably react to in Brawl. Once we start looking at things beyond the 15 frame region, players should be able to react to shields rather than gambling against them when you're at a positional disadvantage.

 

[HeroMystic]

I imagine there'll be a lot more empty short hops for the next few months.

 

[Thinkaman]

But safe-on-block moves (projectiles, spaced stuff, anything that would shieldbreak) are also better, because shields have far less effective health.

 

[Locke 06]

Shields in brawl
1-3: power shield
4-7: locked into shield
8-14: Shield drop lag (7 frames)

Shields in smash 4:
1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)

This info should be spread or placed in the academy. Especially for people who want to get into competitive play, this is sure useful. I was under the impression it was unchanged. (Same with roll and spot dodge frame data)

 

[Shaya]

But safe-on-block moves (projectiles, spaced stuff, anything that would shieldbreak) are also better, because shields have far less effective health.

Well just knowing that my opponent will be shielding 57% longer than in Brawl due to hitconfirm habits does sure make Marth's shieldbreaker a pretty amazing move, if I do say so myself.

This info should be spread or placed in the academy. Especially for people who want to get into competitive play, this is sure useful. I was under the impression it was unchanged. (Same with roll and spot dodge frame data)

I know, I've been lazy. I've posted these all around the place several times but nothing as a stand-alone.
But I've been fleshing out the theoretical impacts on this for a long time now (I got that shield data probably within a week of release IIRC) and only in the past week or three are the puzzle pieces starting to fit together mentally. It's going to take a lot longer than that for actual in-game stuff though (could be months before I adjust properly lol).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shieldbreaker is strong. However here you are advocating non-shield defense.
Which I think is the first thing you implement when you fight Marth and Lucina. Or at least after the first two shield breaks and you go "This is Bull****.".

The positional benefit of pivoting speaks for itself as a defensive maneuver.

I've yet to see Grab as a weak option (given appropriate character speed) as generally the only things that can respond in time on the ground are Jabs, roll and Spot dodge.

Ah wait... Sonic,Fox have the speed to bring out the strength of grabs. So does Diddy, and Falcon. The only fast character with truly poor grab reward seems to be Little Mac.

 

[Shaya]

I'm not advocating non-shield defense. I'm advocating non-hitting shield "aggression".

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Which frankly works based on people utilizing Shield.
If the offensive option is not to hit the shield, then the defensive option isn't to shield either.
Just like the best thing to do when a roll is expected...is to not roll.

So what happens is if we do this dance, non-shield defense becomes a talking point, and shieldbreakers merit decreases. Now Marthcina is different in a respect that they threaten you for shielding inherently due to shieldbreaker, compared to a strategy of non-shield aggression, but I hope my meaning comes across.

 

[Flamecircle]

Wait, what? I'm not supposed to be shield poking? This is blowing my mind.

Seriously, have i just been playing wrong this entire time? How much worse is hitting shield than not hitting shield, framewise? Do I have to learn how to throw out random moves like in SF that I hope people will walk into? Is smash 4 trying to be even more like a traditional fighting game?? This is pretty valuable information, definitely needs to be spread.

 

[NairWizard]

The dynamic is like this.

Shield is strong on hit confirm but weaker when no hits are landed. So to take advantage of the new shield, you have to start not attacking into people's shields.

Once people learn how to deal with shields in this way, it will often be better to just not shield and choose another option instead (spotdodge and roll isn't that great, so maybe an offensive option or mobility option like dash/jump).

 

[Luco]

The dynamic is like this.

Shield is strong on hit confirm but weaker when no hits are landed. So to take advantage of the new shield, you have to start not attacking into people's shields.

Once people learn how to deal with shields in this way, it will often be better to just not shield and choose another option instead (spotdodge and roll isn't that great, so maybe an offensive option or mobility option like dash/jump).

This is why i've been feeling like the whole 'bait and punish' strategy doesn't work quite so well in this game, and characters with safe yet aggressive manouvres that don't necessarily have to worry about shields seem to work better.

No, a better way to put it is that as the meta develops, bait and punish will become less useful as people start adapting more to defensive options such as shield.

I think. Maybe. =/

 

[Shaya]

http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/

 

[Locke 06]

Well just knowing that my opponent will be shielding 57% longer than in Brawl due to hitconfirm habits does sure make Marth's shieldbreaker a pretty amazing move, if I do say so myself.

Speaking of which, do you know how long it takes to break a full shield?

I know, I've been lazy. I've posted these all around the place several times but nothing as a stand-alone.
But I've been fleshing out the theoretical impacts on this for a long time now (I got that shield data probably within a week of release IIRC) and only in the past week or three are the puzzle pieces starting to fit together mentally. It's going to take a lot longer than that for actual in-game stuff though (could be months before I adjust properly lol).

As someone who was basically given incorrect data, I need to now take apart the puzzle pieces I mentally put together. While I understand that you wanted to adjust and put things together yourself, other people do too, but can't if they don't have correct data.

 

[Shaya]

Speaking of which, do you know how long it takes to break a full shield?


As someone who was basically given incorrect data, I need to now take apart the puzzle pieces I mentally put together. While I understand that you wanted to adjust and put things together yourself, other people do too, but can't if they don't have correct data.

I primarily used it as an argument over why rolling in this game isn't OP, as we're choosing to shield on reaction to 'movements' from a player, and in lag + with how human reaction speed goes, we're making ourselves a sitting duck to player's who reposition (instead of taking an action that hits your shield).

Forward Rolling on reaction to shield in the 25 frame rollers club is practically a "free" positional and frame advantage to the 'aggressor'.

 

[NairWizard]

That's the crux of my argument against shielding. Once people start doing nothing when you shield (as in, not attacking), almost every single time you shield* you sacrifice stage control.

*shield in neutral, that is, Shaya's distinction is important.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Diddy and Ness (at later %'s) circumvent the whole shield game with their grabs, they're constantly fishing for it and on top of that Diddy has a command grab on top.
Diddy doesn't really care to begin with because he can grab you from the air or from the ground so if you attempt to shield it can often be a mistake. You don't want to sit in shield with Diddy because his grab reward is too high to opt for the defensive option grabs specifically counter.

Non-shield aggression as I see it ultimately just breaks down into the grab game and using empty hops as a starter into that.

How many of the characters you perceive to be top or high tiers, have poor grab games or if they lack grab range do not have grab set-up (robin).

Rolls aren't very strong vs Grabs given the length of their commitment against say ~30 frame grabs. So what sticks out are spot dodges, tilts and walk/pivot options.
I don't see why you would do nothing. If you engage on their shield, their options against a grab are limited. Especially if you are a higher speed character able to exercise that powerfully from mid-range.
Roll is a reset, Shield lag interferes with a retaliatory attack, Spot dodge and not shielding to begin with are the counter options.

So whats the meta going to be, throwing out invincibility for reset/counters and counter attacking over shielding?

 

[Locke 06]

I primarily used it as an argument over why rolling in this game isn't OP, as we're choosing to shield on reaction to 'movements' from a player, and in lag + with how human reaction speed goes, we're making ourselves a sitting duck to player's who reposition (instead of taking an action that hits your shield).

Forward Rolling on reaction to shield in the 25 frame rollers club is practically a "free" positional and frame advantage to the 'aggressor'.

Okay, so I still think the sitting duck is hyperbole... but I do understand where you're coming from.

However, if you're reacting to shield, if you have a perfect reaction (as in you do it at the same time) you're taking 26 frames before you can do anything when you forward roll. In that time, the person in the shield can react/shield drop on frame 12 (done on frame 19). Isn't that a frame... disadvantage to the roller? (19<26)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

so if people are gunna stop shielding does that mean usage in ganon may go up?

sorry this converstaion is to numerical for me. im losing the abillity to tell what people are trying to get across lol.

im much better at talking about properties and theory craft than ways the meta will change.

 

[Shaya]

You see an action from an opponent, a movement. You don't know what the movement is, there's no way for a human being to react in time.
You shield, it's safe. Brawl has taught us well (no it hasn't )

This shield reaction is going to be about 10+ frames into that roll someone executed.
You shield dropping is going to happen at frame 28 (assuming 10 frame reaction speed), while the roller is behind you free to act earlier.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You see an action from an opponent, a movement. You don't know what the movement is, there's no way for a human being to react in time.
You shield, it's safe. Brawl has taught us well (no it hasn't )

This shield reaction is going to be about 10+ frames into that roll someone executed.
You shield dropping is going to happen at frame 28 (assuming 10 frame reaction speed), while the roller is behind you free to act earlier.

if u say so.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well I mean, if not shielding is the solution then I'm down. Should be easy.

 

[Shaya]

Please team, use your heads a bit.
Nothing is absolute, a change in option mechanics rarely invalidates it.
a 14->18 frames is a difference that one needs to be aware of and plan around. It doesn't suddenly mean "not shielding".

 

[Chuva]

Assuming the 'aggressor' roll is a reaction to the shield and not the other way around, are you calculating the hypothetical reaction time of the 'aggressor' before he performes the roll forward? Is the person rolling still at frame advantage?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I suppose I should've said "not shielding so often", my bad.

Although I still think it's one of Ganon's best options if he's struggling but it's dependent on character I guess.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

oh can i be one to say that human reaction time and the actuall abiliity to do anything about it are very different things? eye the notices anytithin within 60 frames per second to stretch and say that we can actually do somthing about it without expecting it is redicuos since we are not super humans. electronic signal passing from our brain to our hands acutally in frame retrospect takes 7 frames give or take 3 frames

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Going back on the WFT talk a couple pages ago.. Has anyone actually tried using RAR Fair in a match? If so what were your results?

 

[NairWizard]

Please team, use your heads a bit.
Nothing is absolute, a change in option mechanics rarely invalidates it.
a 14->18 frames is a difference that one needs to be aware of and plan around. It doesn't suddenly mean "not shielding".

To be honest though you can get away with not shielding, at least in neutral, but it depends on your character.
I'm in favor of relegating shielding to situational usage, but your mileage may vary. It's worked great for me so far.