Character Competitive Impressions

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's probably more useful on characters who don't have short grab range like Pikachu and less mobility. Being taller is a factor too.

But at least in my experience with Pikachu, even when shield works there's a strong opportunity cost: I could have been doing something else that would advance my position better. It's a very situational tool, kind of like rolling now, in my opinion.

Having good out of shield options (as in, options that don't require you to drop your shield; I don't count jab as one of these) probably also helps. People with up-smashes which cover to their sides can JC up-smash out of shield to cover rolls, or up-b out of shield as SFP just pointed out.

Jab is 7 frames OOS, it's pretty good even if you do have to drop it first

 

[HeroMystic]

About shields, It's an interesting observation.

Shield is absolutely not as effective as it was in Brawl, but it's still a good option. Indeed, the ones who have OOS options are going to utilize it more, but since rolling is a strong defensive option now, and multiple characters can eat shields pretty easily, it's not an end-all-be-all manuever anymore. Outspacing and outprioritizing your opponent generally gives much more reward than shielding, unless your grab game is amazing.

Interestingly and relevant to this conversation, Zero and D1 were on Ultrachen talking about Smash 4, and they basically said that they think Mario is a better character than Luigi.

A lot of this seems to be because Ally is doing amazing with Mario. I really want to see his gameplay now.

 

[NairWizard]

Zero also said "possibly bottom of top tier" for Mario. I find that very interesting that all top players seem to agree that Mario is super viable/good.

Jab is 7 frames OOS, it's pretty good even if you do have to drop it first

Yeah, if your shield is hit that's pretty good. If it's not hit though you're in shield for 17-18 frames before you can jab from the time that you start shielding, and then 7 frames after that your attack comes out. That's frame 24 or 25 from the time that you threw up your shield. Rolls are not ordinarily that great, even as buffed as they are in this game, but I don't like options which validate them because they take stage control very easily if there's a crossup.

It's definitely workable, but there's tons of things I would rather do as the character I play. I can't speak from the ZSS side; maybe there aren't better options in many situations for her. I haven't played her.

Then again, I shield a fair bit as Shulk and Palutena. I'm going to try not shielding as them and see if it improves my game.

 

[Terotrous]

Having good out of shield options (as in, options that don't require you to drop your shield; I don't count jab as one of these) probably also helps. People with up-smashes which cover to their sides can JC up-smash out of shield to cover rolls, or up-b out of shield as SFP just pointed out.

Yeah, it depends on the character for sure, but even for someone like Pikachu I'm pretty confident it will be useful for him in some situations. Besides, if you never do it, people can just be sure that you're going to roll or spot dodge when you get pressured and then they can just focus on punishing that.


How fast is Pikachu UpB OOS, anyway? It'd be a very low reward punish for sure, but it might be able to punish some things that you wouldn't expect.

 

[NAKAT]

I'm not too sold on LUIGI being godlike yet, but he is definitely good at the moment which I love because I used to believe he was really bad. Same applied to Shulk who I am not certain is a high tier character. Trela and I lab bed together for a long time so I am positive Shulk is nasty.

 

[Lavani]

A lot of this seems to be because Ally is doing amazing with Mario. I really want to see his gameplay now.

Jtails vs Ally
Ally vs ZeRo

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah, it depends on the character for sure, but even for someone like Pikachu I'm pretty confident it will be useful for him in some situations. If you never do it, people can just be sure that you're going to roll or spot dodge when you get pressured and then they can just focus on punishing that.

You don't have to replace shield with roll or spotdodge. There are a plethora of other choices: walk, jump tjolt, quick attack once behind, quick attack twice behind (at various angles), quick attack in place, dash back, aerial, tilt, pivot options. I do sometimes spotdodge, almost never roll and almost never shield, but I haven't really been punished for that even by really good players because I have at least 10 things other than spotdodge which I can do. Your reaction to pressure doesn't have to be a purely defensive option (offensive options can often serve as defensive ones). That's also part of it. In this game there are so many good options other than shield that even if you never shield you won't be predictable at all.

Against projectiles, you absolutely should shield (and powershield if you can get it), though.

Generally with Pikachu I get into a comfortable range and start using multiple d-tilts, tjolts, SH autocanceled f-airs, and f-tilt if my opponent tries to jump in with a grab or empty hop. I pivot grab and pivot f-smash dash approaches sometimes, and if my opponent catches on to that and starts spotdodging/shielding/waiting, then I start using repeated d-tilts (great on shield at max range, and Pikachu is fast enough to get there), or waiting and grabbing, sometimes b-airing if against a spotdodge-happy opponent. That's basically a read at that point, though, so I'm getting ahead of myself.

Against sword characters, this works a little less well since they have disjoints, so I have to play the bait and punish game. Shielding isn't very helpful here because I can't grab a well-spaced (or even poorly-spaced, because Pikachu's grab range isn't that great) attack on my shield.

Basically, I find very little room for shielding in my game. I'm positive that this applies to Pikachu. Not sure about anyone else yet.

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah, if your shield is hit that's pretty good. If it's not hit though you're in shield for 17-18 frames before you can jab from the time that you start shielding, and then 7 frames after that your attack comes out. That's frame 24 or 25 from the time that you threw up your shield. Rolls are not ordinarily that great, even as buffed as they are in this game, but I don't like options which validate them because they take stage control very easily if there's a crossup.

It's definitely workable, but there's tons of things I would rather do as the character I play. I can't speak from the ZSS side; maybe there aren't better options in many situations for her. I haven't played her.

Then again, I shield a fair bit as Shulk and Palutena. I'm going to try not shielding as them and see if it improves my game.

Dash>Shield is still very strong. That's all M2K does as Diddy and he's able to win games. That's also classic ness at bthrow%'s. Also, Dash>Shield messes with aerial spacing which leads to more and better punishes. If you, "whiff" a shield that's 17 frames, yes, but you aren't committed to anything. During the frames before you shield drop, you can grab, roll, dodge, jump, up-B/JC-Upsmash... You can also continue shielding to extend your shield.

I agree that shielding can be overused, especially when some characters have very good mobility options, but "randomly" putting up a shield is a pretty darn good option. Especially when the reward can be something like a Diddy throw chain.

 

[NairWizard]

Dash>Shield is still very strong. That's all M2K does as Diddy and he's able to win games. That's also classic ness at bthrow%'s. Also, Dash>Shield messes with aerial spacing which leads to more and better punishes. If you, "whiff" a shield that's 17 frames, yes, but you aren't committed to anything. During the frames before you shield drop, you can grab, roll, dodge, jump, up-B/JC-Upsmash... You can also continue shielding to extend your shield.

I agree that shielding can be overused, especially when some characters have very good mobility options, but "randomly" putting up a shield is a pretty darn good option. Especially when the reward can be something like a Diddy throw chain.

On the particular case of Diddy I have to agree. Shielding seems like a very strong option for him simply because of how potent his shieldgrab is (leading into so many attacks makes his grab very polarizing even amidst his own toolkit). The same applies to Ness because grabbing is so high-reward for him at high %s.

edit: conversely, shielding against Diddy can be pretty poor because of side-b and the reward on his grabs, so this MU is polarizing in general

As with everything else, the specific player that you're playing does matter. If my opponent is throwing out poorly spaced aerials all over the place then of course I'm going to shield those. That's a bunch of free shieldgrabs! Why would you not take something that's free? If my opponent were always recovering in the same way over the ledge I'd also take free f-smashes, that's totally cool. But I think assuming an optimal opponent without habits, shield is in this game "just another option," no better or worse than roll or spotdodge. There are players who never roll or spotdodge. I never shield (except in situations described), and it works out extremely well for me. Might just be my character, though.

I predict that as people get more familiar with matchups and their own options they will shield less and less.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jtails vs Ally
Ally vs ZeRo

Ally barely clutches out matches against Diddy with F-smash reads, and then when ZeRo actually does beat him with Diddy, he twostocks him one of those games.

I will acknowledge that Mario has a competitively winnable matchup against Fox. This is not surprising, because it was always that way in Brawl.

But seriously...Jtails was crapping on Ally except for online clearly making his spacing worse, and then he gets F-smashed for realistically no reason except Ally just sees him spacing really badly. I saw Ally barely clutching it out in a very clearly disadvantaged matchup just because he's kinda an insane player, just generally speaking.

Just saying, I see considerable unfounded bias on Ally's end. His matches didn't prove to me that Mario's advantages were able to make up for his flaws.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well that's okay, if that's what it takes then that's why it takes. I think if Diddy is ever patched at all Ally will do even better me thinks :3

 

[NairWizard]

Ally barely clutches out matches against Diddy with F-smash reads, and then when ZeRo actually does beat him with Diddy, he twostocks him one of those games.

I will acknowledge that Mario has a competitively winnable matchup against Fox. This is not surprising, because it was always that way in Brawl.

But seriously...Jtails was crapping on Ally except for online clearly making his spacing worse, and then he gets F-smashed for realistically no reason except Ally just sees him spacing really badly. I saw Ally barely clutching it out in a very clearly disadvantaged matchup just because he's kinda an insane player, just generally speaking.

I usually don't like to dismiss high-level play but I agree that Ally vs. Jtails was more about Ally outplaying his opponent (online) than about showcasing Mario's strengths. I think I saw Jtails die to an f-smash in the first match at 80 post-hit. That's really low even at the edge. Does that attack really kill at that %?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I usually don't like to dismiss high-level play but I agree that Ally vs. Jtails was more about Ally outplaying his opponent (online) than about showcasing Mario's strengths. I think I saw Jtails die to an f-smash in the first match at 80 post-hit. That's really low even at the edge. Does that attack really kill at that %?

Always did in Brawl up angled. People are now realizing it's a strong KO move?

When it was BETTER in Brawl because of reverse backstep mechanics making it the 5th longest ranged F-smash in the game?

 

[HeroMystic]

I usually don't like to dismiss high-level play but I agree that Ally vs. Jtails was more about Ally outplaying his opponent (online) than about showcasing Mario's strengths. I think I saw Jtails die to an f-smash in the first match at 80 post-hit. That's really low even at the edge. Does that attack really kill at that %?

Mario's F-Smash is actually really damn powerful. It's just hard to land.

 

[TTTTTsd]

As a Dr. Mario player dash shield is lifeblood. As a Ganon player it is the foundation of moving forward.

 

[HeroMystic]

Always did in Brawl up angled. People are now realizing it's a strong KO move?

When it was BETTER in Brawl because of reverse backstep mechanics making it the 5th longest ranged F-smash in the game?

To note, the Up-angled F-Smash still has higher knockback in this game as well.

Normal F-Smash kills Mario at 99% in the middle of FD.
Up-Angled F-Smash kills Mario at 93% in the middle of FD.

 

[Djent]

So this has probably come up already, and @ A2ZOMG has already alluded to it, but:

seems like he will end up in top tier.

-amazing (possibly the best) edgeguarding
-can't easily be edgeguarded himself
-true kill combos with QA due to hitstun increase
-can escape many combo/juggle scenarios himself
-(if legal) some really nasty custom options (further help killing)
-still possesses a good throw game despite no chaingrab
-small, fast, and annoying; good hitbox:hurtbox ratios

Seriously, what is/are this character's weakness(es)?

A relevant (but obviously imperfect) heuristic: people we've never heard of are already doing very well with the rat.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Has anyone talked about how is R.O.B. shaping up competitively? I've won two tournaments in Brawl with him, so while I can talk about my impressions of how he differs in Smash 4, I'm curious how pros see him.

From my point of view: Despite his nerfed recovery, they've given him some great new options on the ground. Side-B has become my favorite move in his kit, I like the new lasers (except that they don't rebound off stage as well), and his aerial game seems weaker somehow, though I can't exactly determine how. I don't like that the gyro lands at almost the same distance no matter how much it's charged, though it seems to come out faster and still serves as a stupid remote shield against projectiles. He has a very good MU against Rosalina, so that's causing me to play him a lot more frequently.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

As far as Roll vs Shield vs Walk talk @ NairWizard
I do not exercise this much on shulk due to lag, however on Pit and Kirby I prefer to pivot ftilt as a defensive option, which will often result in either clanging or a rest with me working on or decreasing a damage lead.
Shielding can be a problem in general especially against the faster ground characters (Mac,Falcon,Sonic, Sshulk,Lpaletuna,Fox) who will just grab you in mid-range with poor ability to react out of that if you decide to shield. So outside of Shulk I also don't find much reliance on shielding.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Seriously, what is/are this character's weakness(es)?

Piss poor range, doesn't kill until rather later on outside of gimps, limited kill move options even if he can combo into them. Probably still hates nearly anyone with a sword. Not exactly a heavyweight in terms of being sent flying off of the stage.

 

[NairWizard]

So this has probably come up already, and @ A2ZOMG has already alluded to it, but:

seems like he will end up in top tier.

-amazing (possibly the best) edgeguarding
-can't easily be edgeguarded himself
-true kill combos with QA due to hitstun increase
-can escape many combo/juggle scenarios himself
-(if legal) some really nasty custom options (further help killing)
-still possesses a good throw game despite no chaingrab
-small, fast, and annoying; good hitbox:hurtbox ratios

Seriously, what is/are this character's weakness(es)?

A relevant (but obviously imperfect) heuristic: people we've never heard of are already doing very well with the rat.

Apparently you missed it when I said that this character is the best character in the game.

I still believe that, at least with customs off.

When you look at his matchups you definitely see the potential there. All of his arguably bad matchups are characters who are generally not that popular or even good overall.

Customs on actually makes him worse, I think, because his edgeguarding gets weaker since almost everyone has at least one better recovery option available in customs-legal scenarios.

 

[Djent]

Realized I didn't mention range in my post. Duh >_<

I can see the argument for customs-ON hurting him

 

[A2ZOMG]

So this has probably come up already, and @ A2ZOMG has already alluded to it, but:

seems like he will end up in top tier.

-amazing (possibly the best) edgeguarding
-can't easily be edgeguarded himself
-true kill combos with QA due to hitstun increase
-can escape many combo/juggle scenarios himself
-(if legal) some really nasty custom options (further help killing)
-still possesses a good throw game despite no chaingrab
-small, fast, and annoying; good hitbox:hurtbox ratios

Seriously, what is/are this character's weakness(es)?

A relevant (but obviously imperfect) heuristic: people we've never heard of are already doing very well with the rat.

I wasn't the first person to say he was outright the best character in the game though. I just had my suspicions pre-patch that he was mad good, and he even got small buffs, and benefits a lot from DI changes for low percent combos.

But yeah, most characters in a custom environment can take superior recovery options to not get edgeguarded to death by him. Though his neutral and negative state will still be by far among the best in the game.

 

[NairWizard]

A liiiitttle talk about top-tier matchups (for those tired of Pikachu talk, skip this post). I actually can't recall if I've done this before, but whatever, my opinions have probably shifted at least a little now with more experience, and I love talking about matchups:

This guy I went over earlier in my edgeguarding post, so I won't repeat all that. Pikachu's edgeguarding is very potent vs. him, whereas Diddy can't edgeguard him in return easily at all (f-air and predict where the up-b will go, I guess? You can actually die trying to recover after trying to edgeguard Pikachu though), and it's not necessarily in Diddy's favor onstage, where Pikachu has more mobility to deal with Diddy's mobility, QA is great for getting out of traps, and Pikachu's d-throw followups can be almost as damaging as Diddy's d-throw to up-air.

Very very even MU, maybe with a slight edge to Pikachu. Here's why. In most aspects, Pikachu and Sheik are pretty even. Needles and Tjolt are both annoying for the receiver; Vanish and Quick Attack are both good recovery options so they have a hard edgeguarding each other; Quick Attack and Bouncing Fish are good for mobility, and they both are fast on the ground; they both have trouble killing outside of a gimp or read (Pikachu really wishes that Sheik were easier to edgeguard, blah); they both stack damage very quickly. Pikachu has one important advantage though: he's small. Sheik's f-tilt and f-air often just pass over his head; I've actually had her jab pass over my head after landing from a missed f-air. It's kind of ridiculous. Pikachu using d-tilt is so ridiculously safe from Sheik's approaches besides needles that I'm inclined to put this in Pikachu's favor, but I'll be conservative and say that it's even. It's certainly not in Sheik's favor, though.

Shaya covered this a long time ago. I don't necessarily agree that it's in Pikachu's favor, but the way he can weave in and out to deal with Luma makes him very potent in this MU, much like Sheik. Gravitational Pulling Tjolt is not very good btw, you just give Pikachu space to pressure you. Better off using a hitbox against it, in my experience. But your mileage may vary. Rosalina's huge hitbox has all kinds of advantages here, not the least of which is convenient edgeguarding with any kind of n-air between her and the ledge (though she can send Luma out ahead/mix up recovering on to the stage instead of to the ledge).

Ness is really hard onstage. His combos do more damage and he has a lot of range, surprisingly for someone with such stubby arms. But he's also very vulnerable offstage, as buffed as his recovery is (it's just that Pikachu is so good offstage). We saw this in ESAM vs. FOW where FOW beat ESAM in Winners using a superior onstage and PK Thunder juggling but ESAM came back and begin edgeguarding FOW extremely well in Losers Finals to take the set 3-0. It's even at the worst, but Pikachu's favor probably when both sides are playing optimally. Another conservative estimate.

Used to be Pikachu's hardest matchup in Brawl, imo, but with the nerf to Lucario's normals this isn't bad at all. Gimping Lucario is easier for Pikachu than it is for most characters (ground mobility + Thunder + b-air + tjolt), so you can often kill him before he gets into huge percents. Also, with Quick Attack, you can confirm a KO on a high-percent Lucario when he's playing uber defensively. I'm still going to call this even just because Lucario is really stupid sometimes at high percents.

In Pikachu's favor despite the sword, imo. Robin's Levin Sword is truly fearsome, but Pikachu can weave in and out of Elfire range with Quick Attack and general mobility, and Robin is actually kind of vulnerable to followups and getting grabbed since his own grab is kind of weak (my opinion of Robin gets worse over time when I consider that grab). Elwind is a very very edgeguardable recovery: catch Robin with even one tjolt or thunder and he can be done right there. I've gotten spiked by Robin and still managed to recover and edgeguard him back a few times. Quick Attack is serious business.

The ZSS boards were complaining about how bad this MU is for them earlier, if I recall. It is pretty bad for her, just because of the stature difference and pressure. is probably in a similar boat, only I find it way easier to edgeguard Falcon than ZSS so he may have it worse. I love it when the jab goes over my head, though. That's hilarious.

Not free, even his recovery isn't free. He's a little harder than the Sheik matchup imo, because his profile is lower and he's harder to hit as a result; also, he has some disjoints on his up-smash and d-smash, which is troubling for Pikachu (his f-air does as well, that's another annoying move). If there's anyone in this group that I'd argue as having an advantage over Pikachu, it'd be this guy, but Hydro Pump is still very gimpable, and it's hard to gimp Pikachu's up-b back with it (trust me, I've tried). Still, objectively Greninja probably wins if he recovers safely.

All of Yoshi's matchups are even, I swear. >_> Pikachus should learn to edgeguard him with footstools, though, otherwise he kills way earlier.

, since apparently this guy is top tier according to some people. I will start talking about the Mario matchup when I talk about top-tier matchups from now on. Anyway, onstage it's surprisingly even, but offstage Pikachu wins, though it's not free (Mario's recovery range is just not great, that's all, leaving him open to a lot of stuff). I'd put this in Pikachu's favor. Tjolt > fireballs helps.

So this guy is pretty good. I don't think he has a bad matchup besides Greninja in the top 10-15 characters in the game.

 

[Steel_Samurai]

Awesome write up, I just starting playing pikachu last week, so I love reading all this info.

I was curious what you meant by this?

Also, with Quick Attack, you can confirm a KO on a high-percent Lucario when he's playing uber defensively.

EDIT: for clarity

 

[NairWizard]

Awesome write up, I just starting playing pikachu last week, so I love reading all this info.

I was curious what you meant by this?


EDIT: for clarity

Lucario at high percents like to camp and wait for you to approach. Quick Attack isn't exactly reactable, so you can QA into or behind Lucario (watch out for Aura Sphere, it covers the area right behind him if he's charging it). If you hit you can confirm up-smash. If you hit a shield and you end up behind him you can up-tilt him to get him off of you, and then you can try to kill him in the air with n-air or Thunder.

 

[A2ZOMG]

, since apparently this guy is top tier according to some people. I will start talking about the Mario matchup when I talk about top-tier matchups from now on. Anyway, onstage it's surprisingly even, but offstage Pikachu wins, though it's not free (Mario's recovery range is just not great, that's all, leaving him open to a lot of stuff). I'd put this in Pikachu's favor. Tjolt > fireballs helps.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but in Brawl, Pikachu beat Mario slightly because his tilts were superior in range, on top of being a small target and difficult for Mario to pressure from the air if he played really patiently.

If that has remained the same, I don't believe Mario does well in this matchup without customs, especially since it's harder for Mario to survive juggles and offstage in this game.

 

[Steel_Samurai]

Lucario at high percents like to camp and wait for you to approach. Quick Attack isn't exactly reactable, so you can QA into or behind Lucario (watch out for Aura Sphere, it covers the area right behind him if he's charging it). If you hit you can confirm up-smash. If you hit a shield and you end up behind him you can up-tilt him to get him off of you, and then you can try to kill him in the air with n-air or Thunder.

I didn't realize QA had that much frame advantage, I'll have to mess with it in training mode later. Thanks!

 

[Gunla]

I occasionally have fought a few decent Pikachus, on and offline, but I will agree that the MU for Greninja VS Pikachu seems just everso slightly skewed in Greninja's favor (if not an even, which is how I feel about it) as long as Greninja is playing it smart with the recovery.

 

[NairWizard]

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but in Brawl, Pikachu beat Mario slightly because his tilts were superior in range, on top of being a small target and difficult for Mario to pressure from the air if he played really patiently.

If that has remained the same, I don't believe Mario does well in this matchup without customs, especially since it's harder for Mario to survive juggles and offstage in this game.

Still true, it's just that Mario's smashes are kind of fearsome and not too high-risk (up-smash and d-smash in particular). Mario's jab is also better than Pikachu's jab in CQC situations (well, most jabs are better than Pikachu's jab; it has use, but it's situational). Offstage is definitely in Pikachu's favor, though, loss of full cape stalling was huge.

Followup (on a slightly different topic): I think that Pikachu has the hardest time against sword characters (minus Robin, I think, and maybe minus Marth), such as Ike, Shulk, and Pit. What do you guys think about sword characters in general? How viable are they, what are their bad matchups, etc. (bad matchups is one I've been looking into).

The characters to consider here are:

, , , / , /

Anyone had a sword character tier list in mind? A tier list made exclusively of sword characters, that is (poor Lucina).

 

[Chuva]

Dash -> Shield is still prevalent in the japanese metagame and a good option for characters who struggle in the neutral.

Regarding the rat, I suspect he also has the advantage (even if slightly) against and . Tjolts is a great tool in the Sonic MU given how it limits his best approaches. Fox was already advantageous for Pikachu in Brawl and even with Fox's buffed recovery in this game it's the same thing as always: Pikachu has better rewards on-stage, especially with Fox physics allowing Pikachu to string him like a boss, and is way more effective off-stage.

Now that I think of it, the top tier in this game is almost a Zoo. We have a monkey, a rat, a dog, a dino, a frog...Guess Smash is no longer the game of space animals, just animals.

 

[Kofu]

Now that I think of it, the top tier in this game is almost a Zoo. We have a monkey, a rat, a dog, a dino, a frog...Guess Smash is no longer the game of space animals, just animals.

And girls. Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS, Female!Robin, and Peach are all pretty amazing.

Are they mean girls?

EDIT: Forgot Palutena. And Female!Villager. Whoops.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Still true, it's just that Mario's smashes are kind of fearsome and not too high-risk (up-smash and d-smash in particular). Mario's jab is also better than Pikachu's jab in CQC situations (well, most jabs are better than Pikachu's jab; it has use, but it's situational). Offstage is definitely in Pikachu's favor, though, loss of full cape stalling was huge.

Well...that does kinda upset me.

D-smash is pretty noticeably unsafe on block last time I checked. U-smash usually pushes people further and typically can be spaced more precisely out of dash, so that one is overall safer on shield.

I really wish this still worked, given how valuable Jab is against Pikachu for limiting his pressure options. Just saying from personal experience (even if it's just online), I've played a lot of Pikachus in the past, and I would go about even, maybe even slightly come out ahead as Mario. Until my opponents eventually stopped going for mobility projectile mixups and just walked, given they could either N-air/F-air out of shield or F-tilt to directly beat anything I could do in neutral. I had this matchup knowledge transition happen to me probably with no less than three different players.

It was fun as Mario when I was the only one abusing tilts in the matchup, until Pikachu just said "hey, mine has more range". And then I try to go back to B-air spacing, but oh that doesn't work consistently either because U-angled F-tilt can catch me as I try to space on Pikachu's really small frame. D-air was sorta a wash for pressuring him because half the time it wouldn't connect on Pikachu completely due to him being so small. Grabs on the ground are cool, but Pikachu gets more out of them generally speaking. I could still sometimes win with Jab cancel combos and U-smash hard reads, MAYBE F-smash out of shield if he did something really careless like D-smash. But the matchup, even if not realistically THAT terrible, was in a way demoralizing when I had to acknowledge that Pikachu could do the majority of what I could do better, and then had his usual dumb mobility advantages that Mario had little to compare with.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Anyone had a sword character tier list in mind? A tier list made exclusively of sword characters, that is (poor Lucina).

Default?

Best - Likely to have the best MU spreads amongst the cast and specifically the top end of the cast.




Solid - Fair well against most, and/or will have top counter-pick significance




Unknown - Sorry MK.


Flawed - Majority of options are frankly done better by characters....of the same archetype. However he is set apart by the cape and may fair better then presumed.

 

[san.]

After more experience with Mii Swordsman and seeing what works with him, I no longer think he is fundamentally flawed using a short+thin or short+wide Mii. Damage on moves are lopsided, but he can surprisingly combo and trap fairly efficiently and kill from a throw combo. There are also a few tricks that help with approaching using sliding dtilts.

 

[LonkQ]

I feel as if Ike doesn't do so well against Pikachu. Shielding isn't always reliable against Pikachu since a lot of his aerials end up lowering his hurtbox on landing. Jab and grab whiff so much because of that, it's terrible, although Dtilt could solve that issue. He also gets juggled pretty hardcore and Quick Attack is annoying to deal with. I'm not the best Ike though, so maybe someone else has a better idea of how to deal with the matchup.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

After more experience with Mii Swordsman and seeing what works with him, I no longer think he is fundamentally flawed using a short+thin or short+wide Mii. Damage on moves are lopsided, but he can surprisingly combo and trap fairly efficiently and kill from a throw combo. There are also a few tricks that help with approaching using sliding dtilts.

I have 4 different Mii Swordsman of short sizes of various widths and two of minor adjustments in Heights. In addition to my Tall/Default. I've been playing with him.
I think I was the first to mention D-throw being a relevant (albeit low as hell damage) throw as well. I've never ignored him. Nor do I believe he gets straight up destroyed.
However He is not as good as the other swordsman, and I do believe that is without question.
There is a clear lack of polish in certain aspects of his kit (Hello there Neutral and Side specials). It seems all the power is forced into his ground game + u-air for the most part however his ground game is going to be beat out by Link. Shulk has the speed to punish anything he does. I still think his cape is great given none of his other disjointed friends bring that to the table so it sets him apart and gives him a dangerous edgeguard option.



Like I said before my observation of S4 tiers is that the lowest players will still have viable matchups against the majority of the cast and be there for lack of potency against a sufficient part of the prevalent meta.
I do feel that Swordfighter meets those qualifications.

If I was to be a list of Sman vs Sman MU's. I think it would look different.

 

[BSP]

I agree with everything except for your view of him as a stall character. He is one of the the only characters in the cast that can both zone and play rush down effectively. You already know that he has a great combo game better than mario, and with more damage output. If anything, I believe he's more of a toolbox character who can handle every situation due to great versatility and uniqueness of his moveset.

He is still an adorable troll to the opponent though

That's true, but I said I think his best potential is when he plays a timeout game.

Jtails vs Ally
Ally vs ZeRo

Ok, I'll admit that I've been sleeping on Usmash. That seems pretty reliable.

I'm still not seeing the top 7 potential though.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

, , , / , /

Anyone had a sword character tier list in mind?

Yes.
Top Tier:

Rest.

 

[NairWizard]

Yes.
Top Tier:

Rest.

I actually left Ganon out intentionally so that you would make this post.

+1