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Character Competitive Impressions

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Ray_Kalm

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edit: Ganondorf's neutral game is pretty good, surprisingly. You wouldn't think that it'd be any good, but it is. He's basically like a sword character. I have had legitimate difficulty facing off with Ganon in neutral. However, his disadvantaged state is still pretty bad. He's big, and he's slow, and his anti-combo options are all big commits (d-air, Wizard's Kick). If he had a n-air interrupt I'd call Ganon for Top Tier, personally.
You nailed it here. In the air he suffers the most when the opponent is below him.

Though, his nair does have solid combo interrupting abilities. To put it to best use, you have to be prepared to DI the finishing hit from start and mash A at the right moment while pulling the control stick away from the opponent (the second kick will most likely be used as a, "okay you're not coming near me again, let's reset this to a neutral stance again").

Basically, he can't capitalize after breaking combos like many other characters in the game, and this is what really hurts him.

Ganon is sick in doubles, too.

Smooth Criminal
Yeah, I find he does amazingly well in doubles. I was able to take doubles at a tournament last week with Robin as my partner among a cast of Rosalina, Ness, and Yoshi to name a few.
 
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RIP_Lucas

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Ganon is much better this game. His approach, grab and kill options are much more solid this time around. A mid tier placement is fine for him right now, but, in the future, I see him being close to high tier.
Sorry, wasn't trying to suggest he wasn't worthy of that, just making a joke about how things have changed.
Luigi's and Doc's combo game is far better than Mario's. Not to mention that Mario has trouble killing as well as having a bad recovery...I'm just not seeing him being A tier.
woops, was actually thinking of Doc. Mario makes up for it by still being decently able to get you to mid % fairly quickly, while keeping reasonable size, speed, and weight to be competitive in most match ups. Having a refletor that is hard to punish and a meteor mash don't hurt either.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but that speed difference hurts Doc and Luigi is just a joke with that inability to punish reliably. Mario's strictly B imo, but I don't make the list.
1) Mario's combo game is not real at all, you can DI out of most combos except for d-throw to up-b. Up-tilt x2 is guaranteed on big characters

2) Palutena doesn't have a huge hurtbox (which is what I assume you mean by hitbox). It's standard. It's not small, like Kirby/Pikachu/etc., but it certainly isn't big. Big would be....Rosalina and Ganondorf, maybe Ike (he's pretty tall if I remember correctly). Biggest would be DK, Dedede, Donkey Kong, and Bowser.

3) What lag? You mean on her tilts? You don't need f-tilt at all. Just use jab: it's disjointed, starts on frame 8, and has good range. It can also be followed up by grab or f-smash (jab 1 knocks the opponent toward you). F-tilt isn't a completely dead move regardless, though; pivot f-tilt covers just about everything your opponent could do and you can't be punished for it. The others... D-tilt isn't very laggy at all for what it does (way better than f-tilt and up-tilt), and you should only be using your up-tilt to catch landings anyway.

Her normals are only bad if you use them incorrectly. If you stick to SH (autocanceled) f-airs, bairs, dash attacks, Autoreticle, jabs, grabs, and the occasional d-tilt, you have a solid ground game. Consider that standard Palutena has access to Reflect Barrier as well: with that, what characters are actually beating her in neutral? Most characters' jabs and many f-tilts lose to or clash with her jab, she has twice the grab range of most characters (it's like Zelda range), her walk/dash speed is like 10th best in the game (which is very good), her dash attack is invincible, so it beats out almost every option an opponent could throw out (including projectiles and antiairs), and b-air is also invincible so SH b-airs just shut down many aerial approaches (like Ness' f-air, which would otherwise outrange Palutena).

Sword characters like Shulk and Ike have a decent shot at beating her in neutral, but her dash attack can power through their SH/FH aerials and jabs, and her jab beats theirs in close range (for some reason they use their fists for their jab 1s). Pit and Marth are probably good candidates too. Outside of them, the toughest are probably Sheik, Rosalina, and Little Mac. I'm not fully sold on Sheik, though. Palutena can usually grab Sheik before Sheik grabs her, and her jab is good against Sheik's f-tilt and d-tilt. She can also Reflect needles with little worry. It's only Sheik's f-air which is kind of annoying.

Rosalina is an interesting case. If this is with customs off then Luma Shot almost always gets Reflect Barrier'd. If Rosalina tries to n-air you can up-smash her/Luma usually. B-air consumes Luma in its vortex of invincibility. Dash attack isn't bad either for that though you'll probably get hit if Rosalina is close. The patch nerfed the Luma hitting you out of a throw animation thing so you can actually go for d-throw now, so grab is a great option in neutral.

Up to 3-5 characters beat Palutena in neutral. I think everyone else loses or ties. Duck Hunt, Megaman, Link, Samus, and projectile characters super lose, and she beats characters like Ness, Greninja, Jigglypuff (use up-smash liberally, it's a great anti-air, and your b-air always wins period), Pikachu, and Diddy (Reflect Barrier is legitimately sick against Diddy; if he side-bs the pushback is just enough for him to narrowly miss you and be open, and banana gets reflected, so there go all of his options, and if he dashes toward you you can just grab him first with your superior grab range, or just jab since attacks beat grabs now, though for all of this you need to have good spacing).

Palutena is probably upper mid or lower high tier with standard sets. She doesn't dominate anyone but projectile characters, but she doesn't struggle in any matchups either, winning neutral against many.

That tier list is non-customs, or else she would probably be top 5 on it, because customs-on makes her ridiculous.

edit: Ganondorf's neutral game is pretty good, surprisingly. You wouldn't think that it'd be any good, but it is. He's basically like a sword character. I have had legitimate difficulty facing off with Ganon in neutral. However, his disadvantaged state is still pretty bad. He's big, and he's slow, and his anti-combo options are all big commits (d-air, Wizard's Kick). If he had a n-air interrupt I'd call Ganon for Top Tier, personally.
yeah, hurtbox, my bad, but it is very large for a defensive player. ROB proves that's not a huge problem if you have the tools to get past it, but Palutena doesn't.

Her jab may have all the things you said, but it's not hard at all to punish if it doesn't connect. Same with her reflector, counter, and projectile. Her tilts and aerials are harder to punish, but don't offer much other than decent spacing tools, which she lacks the tools to really take advantage of. Her biggest problem is mediocre KO options, largely because of how painfully predictable her smashes are. She has much better luck if the opponent is in the air where she can bait an air dodge and punish with an up smash or aerial, but it's hard to bait the air dodge if you're always on the defensive.

Sure, she's good in neutral. Probably deserves higher because projectile characters pee their respective pants when they see her, neutral is really a theoretical thing for her, as even mediocre close range characters have little to fear from her
 
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Luco

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I definitely agree from experience Palutena with customs is almost ludicrous. Something about Pally's grab seems off, though, or at least punishable. It is hilariously funny when I get a palutena run up to me in lightweight in the blink of an eye and then take what feels like 2 years to complete her grab animation. :laugh:

Super-speed --> Bair combos are so legit. Grab combos are not quite as intense as some but still really, really good. Most things have already been said about her, so I won't go into detail. :)
 
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InfinityCollision

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Her jab may have all the things you said, but it's not hard at all to punish if it doesn't connect. Same with her reflector, counter, and projectile. Her tilts and aerials are harder to punish
Hold up.

Did you just claim her jab is more punishable than her tilts?

You do realize we're talking about jab1 and not the jab combo, right? Her jab1 is very, very good.
 

RIP_Lucas

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Hold up.

Did you just claim her jab is more punishable than her tilts?

You do realize we're talking about jab1 and not the jab combo, right? Her jab1 is very, very good.
I was indeed referring to the combo (don't play as her, so forgot about that), but the jab itself lacks the range to be great. Very very good? sure, but not good enough to not have a downright terrible match up with all the entirety of the S, A, and B tiers. That sounds like a pretty huge reason you'd never use her.
 

NairWizard

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yeah, hurtbox, my bad, but it is very large for a defensive player. ROB proves that's not a huge problem if you have the tools to get past it, but Palutena doesn't.
Palutena's hurtbox isn't the size of ROB's. Go put Rosalina and Palutena next to each other in game and see the difference (or Rosalina and Peach to eliminate visual differences like hair color). She has a standard hurtbox. Similar to Falcon's, Zelda's, Marth's, etc.

Her jab may have all the things you said, but it's not hard at all to punish if it doesn't connect.
Her spaced jab is safe on whiff (unpunishable). Don't use the entire jab. Just use the first hit. Jab 1.

Same with her reflector, counter, and projectile. Her tilts and aerials are harder to punish, but don't offer much other than decent spacing tools, which she lacks the tools to really take advantage of.
No idea what you mean here. Care to elaborate on what you mean by lack of tools?

Her tilts are easier to punish than reflector and maximally spaced Autoreticle, by the way. Up-tilt is super easy to punish if you use it in neutral.

Her biggest problem is mediocre KO options, largely because of how painfully predictable her smashes are. She has much better luck if the opponent is in the air where she can bait an air dodge and punish with an up smash or aerial, but it's hard to bait the air dodge if you're always on the defensive.
KO options are Palutena's smallest concern. D-throw can lead to up-air or b-air, jab 1 leads into f-smash, up-smash is often safe and can catch landings, and dash attack can KO. Up-throw and b-throw kill at higher percents (easier on Wii U than it was on smash 3ds). Any character with a throw and a jab that can set you up to get killed has no trouble killing.

Every smash attack in the game is predictable, unless it's as fast as a tilt (say, Little Mac's smashes, or Pit's f-smash).

neutral is really a theoretical thing for her, as even mediocre close range characters have little to fear from her
What do you mean a theoretical thing? Is there some magic execution barrier here preventing me from executing the things that I've described? She isn't Marth, where you have to have tight reaction times in order to make the most of his neutral game (dancing blade, up-b, powershields). Neutral is a real part of the game that you're going to play, and Palutena beats most characters at it. She's going to get in advantage more often than they are, and get to disadvantage less often than they are.

Not sure what you mean about little to fear. Palutena's reward is really good off of a down-throw, and jab can be followed up into by d-throw. Jab to grab to pummel to d-throw to f-air does 15-25%, more if you can get a n-air (which is 11-12%), though people can DI out of the n-air somewhat. None of her combos are really guaranteed (though d-throw > f-air might as well be), but they're also not straightforward to DI because she has tons of options, unlike say Mario. Being above Palutena is extremely scary because of her up-air, up-smash, and up-tilt. Just mixing up those options and b-air is enough.

Also, Warp means that she's pretty great in disadvantage too.

I was indeed referring to the combo (don't play as her, so forgot about that), but the jab itself lacks the range to be great. Very very good? sure, but not good enough to not have a downright terrible match up with all the entirety of the S, A, and B tiers. That sounds like a pretty huge reason you'd never use her.
Do you really want me to go over 20 character matchups? Because I will do it, fair warning.
 
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ChronoPenguin

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I was indeed referring to the combo (don't play as her, so forgot about that), but the jab itself lacks the range to be great. Very very good? sure, but not good enough to not have a downright terrible match up with all the entirety of the S, A, and B tiers. That sounds like a pretty huge reason you'd never use her.
Brah I think you've caught yourself in a situation you dont want to discuss.
 

TTTTTsd

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I wouldn't say Luigi. Luigi lacks Mario's aerial mobility and disruption options, he can't edgeguard as well. I mean if we talk strictly combos maybe but they're different niches. In respect to Mario and Luigi, anyways.
 

Chuva

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Didn't think I'd see the day Link > Tlink.
I'd still put them in the same boat, Link may have better rewards from hits but Tlink's physics (ground speed, air speed etc) feels more appropriate for a zoning gameplan and also makes it easier to get out of bad situations. If anything their difference is mostly a question of risk vs reward.

If only Link had Tlink's Bthrow and Clawshot speed I'd have no doubt of him being a solid high tier.
 
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InfinityCollision

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I was indeed referring to the combo (don't play as her, so forgot about that), but the jab itself lacks the range to be great. Very very good? sure, but not good enough to not have a downright terrible match up with all the entirety of the S, A, and B tiers. That sounds like a pretty huge reason you'd never use her.
Lacks... range? Perhaps you're not aware that the hitboxes extend beyond the tip of her staff. It reaches nearly as far as Marth's dtilt, but without moving her hurtboxes forward at all. I assure you, it does not lack range.
 
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Nairo

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On the 3DS electroshock may have been better as you can vector upper dash to around the same % as electoshock however for example landing an electroshock on the right side of the FD can kill earlier than upper dash due to being close to the right blast zone. But of course they can live slightly longer if you hit them from one side of the stage to the other. As for arrows, pits arrows may be better for gimping diddy so I may use pit over dpit in that MU sometimes in the future. When I use arrows I mainly use them to get better control for example back throw to arrow off stage most likely theyll dodge it (if not cool) but if they do dodge it odds are they will grab the ledge and from there they have less options (most characters at least) to do now so its up to me to react to what they do. If they jump over the arrow then they have no jump and will most likely go for the ledge or an attack to cover their landing which in that case I can punish with electroshock/upper dash as pit or something. Just now I tested out killing diddy kong with side b with both pit/dark pit at 100-125% and upper dash killed at 202% (landed the attack at 190ish) on battlefield and killed with electroshock at 160 from under the right platform of BF (launched to the right side blast zone) and I killed myself each time to prevent the staling. SO YEA overall if you use pit/dpit you can use the other its all preferences, maybe one is better than the other in some MUs but not by THAT much (like pits arrow possibly being more effective vs diddy than dpit). Also pits ftilt being stronger than dpits but not by that much
 
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L7 Zero Cool

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Hey guys. New to Smash 4 and would like to ask a few questions.

1. How viable is Ike in this game? One of the main reasons I stopped playing Brawl was due to his ineptitutde when compared to characters like MK and Snake. Can Ike win in this game, or is it a constant up hill battle? How good is Ike with custom moves?

2. Same question as 1, but for Link instead of Ike.


3. Who are the best Ikes and Links to keep my eyes on via youtube?

4. Can someone explain pivotting to me? Pivot tilting, advancing tilt, and stuff like that? If there is a link to a guide explaining tese things I'd appreciate it. I'm having a difficult time approaching and strting offense with Ike online, and I hear being able to pilot properly helps.

4. I also hear autocancelling helps with offense. Is this when you time an aerial a certain way so that the recovery can be cancelled out via attacks? For example, auto cancelling ike's forward air into his jab combo or forward tilt?

Thanks a lot! Looking forward to getting into this game heavy. Unlocking customs is a long task, but the solo modes are fun so I don't mind too much.
 

NairWizard

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Hey guys. New to Smash 4 and would like to ask a few questions.

1. How viable is Ike in this game? One of the main reasons I stopped playing Brawl was due to his ineptitutde when compared to characters like MK and Snake. Can Ike win in this game, or is it a constant up hill battle? How good is Ike with custom moves?

2. Same question as 1, but for Link instead of Ike.


3. Who are the best Ikes and Links to keep my eyes on via youtube?

4. Can someone explain pivotting to me? Pivot tilting, advancing tilt, and stuff like that? If there is a link to a guide explaining tese things I'd appreciate it. I'm having a difficult time approaching and strting offense with Ike online, and I hear being able to pilot properly helps.

4. I also hear autocancelling helps with offense. Is this when you time an aerial a certain way so that the recovery can be cancelled out via attacks? For example, auto cancelling ike's forward air into his jab combo or forward tilt?

Thanks a lot! Looking forward to getting into this game heavy. Unlocking customs is a long task, but the solo modes are fun so I don't mind too much.
Welcome to smashboards.

1) Ike without custom moves is quite viable. His f-air autocancels at full hop height thanks to the last patch, which was great for him. He kills quite early, has combos, and he's very hard to punish when he's spacing (f-tilt, f-air, b-air, d-tilt, all are very good on shield). Jab is fantastic as always.

Ike with customs is top 5, possibly top 3, imo. Close Combat tears through projectiles, Tempest as an edgeguarding move is almost unfair, and Aether Drive gives him an amazing recovery to boot. Ike's probably a little bit imbalanced with customs on (as in, extremely absurd, you have to play against him to see).

2) Link is OK. Nothing great; he still has problems with certain matchups, but he has a solid playstyle, and you won't be disappointed.

3) Ryuga and Ryo are good Ikes to watch out for (san is good too, but he doesn't have videos yet I believe). Don't know about good Links.

4) Pivot options are basically interrupting momentum in one direction to turn around and input in another direction.
Pivot grab is dash -> turn around and grab, interrupting your dash.
Pivot f-tilt is dash -> turn around and tilt, interrupting your dash
Pivot f-smash is dash -> turn around and smash, interrupting your dash.
If you do these quickly you won't complete your dash, you will just turn around and execute the action.

4 #2) Autocanceling means using an aerial at such a height that the landing lag is canceled. Ike's f-air autocancels if you start it during the apex of his full hop.
 
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Protom

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I haven't been on this thread before, but a question I'd like to ask.
What are some impressions you guys have of bread and butter combos for spaces in this game.
I find that fox d-throw into fair and fox dash attack into nair is pretty consistent at mid percentage. Anyone found some other good b&bs?
 

Thinkaman

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I think Ike is... viable without customs, but nothing to write home about. I'd put him in the bottom half of the roster.

I don't think customs puts Ike in top 3, 5, or even 10. He benefits a lot, especially in his worst matchups, and more than almost all other characters. But in my experience he hasn't shown to be an insurmountable threat.
 

A2ZOMG

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edit: Ganondorf's neutral game is pretty good, surprisingly. You wouldn't think that it'd be any good, but it is. He's basically like a sword character. I have had legitimate difficulty facing off with Ganon in neutral. However, his disadvantaged state is still pretty bad. He's big, and he's slow, and his anti-combo options are all big commits (d-air, Wizard's Kick). If he had a n-air interrupt I'd call Ganon for Top Tier, personally.
My opinion of Ganon's neutral is that from a pure technical standpoint, it's not great minus that landing lag reductions are a BIG DEAL for Ganon. Overall though, Ganondorf does have slightly slower than average moves that are not safe on whiff, and also have to be spaced carefully on shields, though shield stun mechanic changes are a very big deal for Ganondorf too.

Anyone can punish Ganondorf easily in neutral, and he runs into problems against characters that both can camp him and then have very safe SH aerial pressure, Sheik being the biggest offender here. I believe what makes Ganondorf shine in neutral though is that he's also a very good character at punishing. His options are not usually safe, but they all have to be respected, which in a way, puts limits on what his opponent can do against him safely.

Characters that can gimp him can be a problem, but WDK custom can easily compensate for this in the matchups where this is very problematic. Mostly, I feel that characters that simultaneously can camp Ganondorf and can SH aerial pressure him very quickly are the biggest problem.

Quick concurring thought:

I think a lot of people misunderstood why Ganon was so poor in Brawl, misattributing flaws and ignoring suppressed strengths. This is causing him to be commonly misevaluated by a lot of people based on incorrect theorycraft.
I think most of us agree that game mechanics changes are a very massive win for Ganondorf.
 
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Chuva

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I haven't been on this thread before, but a question I'd like to ask.
What are some impressions you guys have of bread and butter combos for spaces in this game.
I find that fox d-throw into fair and fox dash attack into nair is pretty consistent at mid percentage. Anyone found some other good b&bs?
Falco's good bnb is Dthrow -> Dash Attack, Dash Attack leaves your opponent at an angle (almost above Falco) that allows you possible follow-ups (Utilt, Nair, Uair). Should work until approximately 50%.

You also have character specifics like Dthrow - Usmash (only on heavies, until approx 20%) and Dthrow - Fair (only the final hitboxes should connect)
 

san.

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I think Ike is... viable without customs, but nothing to write home about. I'd put him in the bottom half of the roster.

I don't think customs puts Ike in top 3, 5, or even 10. He benefits a lot, especially in his worst matchups, and more than almost all other characters. But in my experience he hasn't shown to be an insurmountable threat.
I'd like to understand your reasoning behind this.
 

NairWizard

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I think Ike is... viable without customs, but nothing to write home about. I'd put him in the bottom half of the roster.

I don't think customs puts Ike in top 3, 5, or even 10. He benefits a lot, especially in his worst matchups, and more than almost all other characters. But in my experience he hasn't shown to be an insurmountable threat.
Was in the midst of responding when san posted, but yes, it would be nice to hear some reasoning here.
 

Luco

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I can't say i've heard Ike living up to the level that's surrounding characters like Diddy, Sheik, Rosaluma, etc. I think he's definitely very very good, in my opinion upper half of the roster; but top 5 feels like a stretch. With customs enabled, he could potentially jump into top 10 though, I think. :)
 
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san.

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Well, it was mostly the "in my experience" part that I'm most curious about, since to my knowledge there are no notable Ike players any farther west than the eastern time zone. Ike doesn't really have many competitive mains for the most part. From what I know currently, Ryo and I are winning some locals, Ryuga may be winning/top 3 in his area, and Red-X- got 5th at a NYC-area local despite not having a Wii U. It's alright for such few mains. Ike was also only recently buffed, so it's only going to be people who played with him in 1.0.3 until he has some more representation in regionals or greater.
 
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BSP

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Anybody wanna talk about characters with low discussion like...
:4pacman:,:4pit:,:4rob:,
OK, got to mess with :4pacman:more this weekend.

The Good

Stage Control/Presence: This guy is a pain to approach and fight. Between Hydrant, Trampolines, and Fruits, he can pester you no matter where he is on stage and force you to change up your gameplan of how you're going to approach him. If you're a character that relies on grounded approaches a lot, you're going to have to find a way to deal with his trampolines, hydrants, and bursts of water getting in your way while he is throwing stuff at you.

Fire Hydrant: Big aspect of stage control and more. It forces you to respect him when you're trying to juggle (unless you're got an Uair that goes through it anyway :( ), and he can also throw it down while high and use it to cover his landing, which is pretty effective when the water makes punishing him a bit complicated.

It negates some projectiles completely (I believe Fox's lasers and Sheik's needles can't send it flying), and for those it doesn't, it's still a shield and/or Pac Man can stand on it to avoid some fire.

It can also be used in a psuedo-counter fashion. If you throw it down and stay close to it while the opponent hits it with something that doesn't send it flying immediately, Pac Man can hit it right after to launch it at them for a free 13%.

Then there's launching it:

When it's launched with jab, you can set up a lingering hitbox to set up landing traps, cover your grabs, etc.
" " " " ftilt/dtilt/Fsmash/horizontal knockback, it's a projectile with good range that does 13%, nothing to laugh it.
" " " " Usmash, it goes in a high arc that I've yet to see anyone or myself take full advantage of, but it should serve for some basic option coverage.

Trampoline: This move makes rushing Pac Man down quite difficult, and near impossible when set up with the hydrant. The only way I know of to pass over this thing without being forced airborne is using Wario's bike and riding over it. With it forcing you to jump, Pac Man can take that into consideration and attempt to punish you accordingly, which is a big problem if you don't have a good airgame.

By nature, his Up B is unblockable and undodgeable if used on top of the opponent. Hopefully this gets more application in the future, but just know that standing on top of Pac Man is never safe.

If it's used on the ledge, choosing standard getup, ledge attack, and ledge roll will all get you launched into the air, so it's great at limited ledge options too.

Recovery: Unless you get read hard, you should always be coming back to the stage with him. Side B covers great distance and you get it back every time you are hit. Up B provides decent vertical coverage, and also makes him meteor proof in a sense.

His BF also slows his falling speed, so every time you launch Pac Man, he can come back with a least an orange ready, or something later depending on how far he got launched. Being able to special cancel, airdodge out (and stopdodge/roll/shield on the ground) of BF also makes it difficult to outright punish him for doing this.

Bonus Fruit: This move is dumb. None of the fruits stale. They've all got a use, but the ones I use the most are
Orange: 8%, moves pretty quickly, and gimps
Apple: unique trajectory and does 9%
Melon: 12% and it's travel speed makes it good for setups and setups for edgeguards
Galaxian: I haven't been able to pull off many, but he can get some 30%+ combos from this thing
Bell: Can net early KOs if he catches you with it
Key: an essentially full-screen punish that does 15%, pierces, and has respectable knockback. IMO it's the reason you can't just sit back against him.

Although his grab is awful, his throw game is decent. Bthrow is the only one that's going to KO at reasonable %, but Dthrow does great damage and essentially combos into DA and keys at low %. I believe Fthrow combos in Key at low % too. His pummel is pretty good too, usually doing from 3-4%.

The Bad:

Overall, his melee range isn't that great.

His fruits can be caught and used against him. This shouldn't be happening too often, but it is something to note. They aren't that difficult to catch either if Pac Man is predictable in throwing them. While they are being held, Pac Man can't make another one, but whoever is holding also can't grab or use tilts.

All hydrant launches can be used against him too, so he's got to be wary. However, it's not hard to bait people with your hydrant, and then smack them with a Key or Orange for trying to launch it. Still, he can't just throw it out like crazy. Some Uairs can go right throw it too, so it isn't infallible in covering his landing.

Trampoline can backfire as well if not used wisely. While it only forces the opponent into the air, Pac Man will always go helpless whenever he hits it, leaving him vulnerable if he gets forced into it.

Oh, almost forgot: You're probably not going to land his smashes without good reads and/or bells. Key can KO, but it's going to take 130% before it starts doing so. If you can't net edgeguard KOs with him, opponents will be living for a while.

HIS GRAB: This is the only reason the character is not overpowered. This thing is so punishable on whiff that he can't reliably throw it out. If someone is battering his shield with attacks, unless they're very poorly spaced, shieldgrabbing is not an option. In general, it also means that putting up your shield when close to him is usually a safe thing to do (just not right on top of him). His grab will probably be the thing that holds him back the most.

Recovery issues: The third jump from his up B can be stolen, leaving him to fall to his death. His side B can also be cancelled by hitting the pellet.

Overall though, I'm still thinking mid high tier at worst.

I hate to say it, but his greatest potential is as a stalling/timeout character that focuses on abusing Trampoline, Hydrant, and BF to make the game not fun for the opponent to play. Trying to catch a Pac Man that is running away and using his specials properly (and possibly abusing Smash 4's rolls....) is very frustrating, and you have to keep the pressure up or he's going to keep getting keys.

If this character makes it far in tournaments, chats will be filled with ResidentSleepers for sure.
 
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Shaya

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I swear the way Ryo plays Ike makes me think he's either using custom equipment to increase speed or Ike got some massive mobility buffs I haven't really seen used so well before.

He made it look like Ike was able to keep up with SONIC.
Like what the ****.

I guess in Brawl he kinda did similar stuff, no one really was able to explain or replicate anywhere near even half the stuff Ryo got away with in that game. Like, not dropping a set to Dedede for most of the game's life time.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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And there aren't any notable D3s placing high offline to my knowledge, save for Vex. Anybody wanna fill in the blanks?

Now that I think about it, this may be a good thread of conversation. Anybody wanna talk about the placement of peeps' characters in this developing meta? Like, players AND characters? Maybe we can distill some pretty interesting factoids from it. I'd love to hear about Brawlheads that @NAKAT mentioned earlier.

Just don't turn it into x player is better than y, please. :v

Smooth Criminal
 

san.

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I swear the way Ryo plays Ike makes me think he's either using custom equipment to increase speed or Ike got some massive mobility buffs I haven't really seen used so well before.

He made it look like Ike was able to keep up with SONIC.
Like what the ****.
He has a medium initial dash, good maximum aerial speed, poor horizontal aerial acceleration, and falls fast. His backwards jump flips in such a way to make it more difficult to hit him. Mixing between aerials and quick fast falls into his ground game is a great tool. Many other characters that can do this don't have both aerial speed and fast fall ability. What he can't do is weave in and out without a double jump. That's why you see Ryo land so often, or otherwise use his double jump to evade.

Ike does have some quick moves with his frame 7, 14% bair. Random bair from anywhere on the stage is probably the easiest ways to get kills. The +1% to bair was a much bigger buff than most realize. You even see Ryo bair right into the Sonic's shield on top of him and he escapes unpunished as the Sonic's grab whiffs.

What hasn't been shown yet is that Ike can get a uthrow->uair combo kill on some lightweights and light fast-fallers at certain percents and low rage, and a very good air dodge chase in most other cases, since his uair lasts longer than an air dodge.

And there aren't any notable D3s placing high offline to my knowledge, save for Vex. Anybody wanna fill in the blanks?

Smooth Criminal
It would be nice. That's why I'm always hesitant on labeling characters, since more often than not you have to play the best players of said character to form a solid opinion outside of theorycraft, especially if that character is rare. It *is easier to theorycraft in this game without SDI ruining most hypothetical scenarios, though. I'm still trying to understand the lesser known of the two Miis and I like what I see so far. Swordsman is more gimmicky since he only has 3-4 really good moves, but it somehow works because of the mobility of small Miis.
 
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Luco

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So to clarify, you mean like, "This player placed x position in a tournament with this character" yup?

That sounds like it could be fun. =D

EDIT: No wait that sounds too simple, i'm probably mis-understanding ya. :o
 
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L7 Zero Cool

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Welcome to smashboards.

1) Ike without custom moves is quite viable. His f-air autocancels at full hop height thanks to the last patch, which was great for him. He kills quite early, has combos, and he's very hard to punish when he's spacing (f-tilt, f-air, b-air, d-tilt, all are very good on shield). Jab is fantastic as always.

Ike with customs is top 5, possibly top 3, imo. Close Combat tears through projectiles, Tempest as an edgeguarding move is almost unfair, and Aether Drive gives him an amazing recovery to boot. Ike's probably a little bit imbalanced with customs on (as in, extremely absurd, you have to play against him to see).

2) Link is OK. Nothing great; he still has problems with certain matchups, but he has a solid playstyle, and you won't be disappointed.

3) Ryuga and Ryo are good Ikes to watch out for (san is good too, but he doesn't have videos yet I believe). Don't know about good Links.

4) Pivot options are basically interrupting momentum in one direction to turn around and input in another direction.
Pivot grab is dash -> turn around and grab, interrupting your dash.
Pivot f-tilt is dash -> turn around and tilt, interrupting your dash
Pivot f-smash is dash -> turn around and smash, interrupting your dash.
If you do these quickly you won't complete your dash, you will just turn around and execute the action.

4 #2) Autocanceling means using an aerial at such a height that the landing lag is canceled. Ike's f-air autocancels if you start it during the apex of his full hop.

Thanks a ton man. In terms of pivots, is one of it's primary uses to initiate offense when retreating via dashing away? For example, I'm not understanding the utility behind pivot grab for Ike, but for a grapple grappler like Link or samus, I can see them retreating to create space before quickly pivot throwing to whiff punish or catch the opponent off guard. Also, do you have to always turn fully arroundm or can the pivot motion just be used to halt the dash while still facing forward?

I'm going to get on my wii u and practice these soon.
 

Thinkaman

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I don't have any hard data based on experience against any Ike mains. My opinion is just simple extrapolation from my playtime with and against the character; nothing more.

I haven't found Close Combat to be the be-all-end-all solution to projectiles Ike wishes he had. (Don't get me wrong, it's fantastic and opens up how Ike approaches a lot of matchups.)

The rest of Ike's options are welcome upgrades but not much more. Tempest has respectable utility and is quite scary for Little Mac, but I'd never call it a game changer. Paralyzing Counter and Eruption 3 are modest upgrades, and his up-b options are very important but nothing to call the President about.


This is a weird post to be making; I possibly care more about customs than anyone, and think Ike is the poster boy for a character who gets a ton out of them. But I think it's important to not think in binary absolutes, and always have a sense of context and scale in all things.

This is where numbers would be better than words, but we make do with what we've got. I think the correct measure for "How much better is Ike with customs?" is "Quite a lot; no more, no less."
 

Nu~

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OK, got to mess with :4pacman:more this weekend.

The Good

Stage Control/Presence: This guy is a pain to approach and fight. Between Hydrant, Trampolines, and Fruits, he can pester you no matter where he is on stage and force you to change up your gameplan of how you're going to approach him. If you're a character that relies on grounded approaches a lot, you're going to have to find a way to deal with his trampolines, hydrants, and bursts of water getting in your way while he is throwing stuff at you.

Fire Hydrant: Big aspect of stage control and more. It forces you to respect him when you're trying to juggle (unless you're got an Uair that goes through it anyway :( ), and he can also throw it down while high and use it to cover his landing, which is pretty effective when the water makes punishing him a bit complicated.

It negates some projectiles completely (I believe Fox's lasers and Sheik's needles can't send it flying), and for those it doesn't, it's still a shield and/or Pac Man can stand on it to avoid some fire.

It can also be used in a psuedo-counter fashion. If you throw it down and stay close to it while the opponent hits it with something that doesn't send it flying immediately, Pac Man can hit it right after to launch it at them for a free 13%.

Then there's launching it:

When it's launched with jab, you can set up a lingering hitbox to set up landing traps, cover your grabs, etc.
" " " " ftilt/dtilt/Fsmash/horizontal knockback, it's a projectile with good range that does 13%, nothing to laugh it.
" " " " Usmash, it goes in a high arc that I've yet to see anyone or myself take full advantage of, but it should serve for some basic option coverage.

Trampoline: This move makes rushing Pac Man down quite difficult, and near impossible when set up with the hydrant. The only way I know of to pass over this thing without being forced airborne is using Wario's bike and riding over it. With it forcing you to jump, Pac Man can take that into consideration and attempt to punish you accordingly, which is a big problem if you don't have a good airgame.

By nature, his Up B is unblockable and undodgeable if used on top of the opponent. Hopefully this gets more application in the future, but just know that standing on top of Pac Man is never safe.

If it's used on the ledge, choosing standard getup, ledge attack, and ledge roll will all get you launched into the air, so it's great at limited ledge options too.

Recovery: Unless you get read hard, you should always be coming back to the stage with him. Side B covers great distance and you get it back every time you are hit. Up B provides decent vertical coverage, and also makes him meteor proof in a sense.

His BF also slows his falling speed, so every time you launch Pac Man, he can come back with a least an orange ready, or something later depending on how far he got launched. Being able to special cancel, airdodge out (and stopdodge/roll/shield on the ground) of BF also makes it difficult to outright punish him for doing this.

Bonus Fruit: This move is dumb. They've all got a use, but the ones I use the most are
Orange: 8%, moves pretty quickly, and gimps
Apple: unique trajectory and does 9%
Melon: 12% and it's travel speed makes it good for setups and setups for edgeguards
Galaxian: I haven't been able to pull off many, but he can get some 30%+ combos from this thing
Bell: Can net early KOs if he catches you with it
Key: an essentially full-screen punish that does 15%, pierces, and has respectable knockback. IMO it's the reason you can't just sit back against him.

Although his grab is awful, his throw game is decent. Bthrow is the only one that's going to KO at reasonable %, but Dthrow does great damage and essentially combos into DA and keys at low %. I believe Fthrow combos in Key at low % too. His pummel is pretty good too, usually doing from 3-4%.

The Bad:

Overall, his melee range isn't that great.

His fruits can be caught and used against him. This shouldn't be happening too often, but it is something to note. They aren't that difficult to catch either if Pac Man is predictable in throwing them. While they are being held, Pac Man can't make another one, but whoever is holding also can't grab or use tilts.

All hydrant launches can be used against him too, so he's got to be wary. However, it's not hard to bait people with your hydrant, and then smack them with a Key or Orange for trying to launch it. Still, he can't just throw it out like crazy. Some Uairs can go right throw it too, so it isn't infallible in covering his landing.

Trampoline can backfire as well if not used wisely. While it only forces the opponent into the air, Pac Man will always go helpless whenever he hits it, leaving him vulnerable if he gets forced into it.

Oh, almost forgot: You're probably not going to land his smashes without good reads and/or bells. Key can KO, but it's going to take 130% before it starts doing so. If you can't net edgeguard KOs with him, opponents will be living for a while.

HIS GRAB: This is the only reason the character is not overpowered. This thing is so punishable on whiff that he can't reliably throw it out. If someone is battering his shield with attacks, unless they're very poorly spaced, shieldgrabbing is not an option. In general, it also means that putting up your shield when close to him is usually a safe thing to do (just not right on top of him). His grab will probably be the thing that holds him back the most.

Recovery issues: The third jump from his up B can be stolen, leaving him to fall to his death. His side B can also be cancelled by hitting the pellet.

Overall though, I'm still thinking mid high tier at worst.

I hate to say it, but his greatest potential is as a stalling/timeout character that focuses on abusing Trampoline, Hydrant, and BF to make the game not fun for the opponent to play. Trying to catch a Pac Man that is running away and using his specials properly (and possibly abusing Smash 4's rolls....) is very frustrating, and you have to keep the pressure up or he's going to keep getting keys.

If this character makes it far in tournaments, chats will be filled with ResidentSleepers for sure.
I agree with everything except for your view of him as a stall character. He is one of the the only characters in the cast that can both zone and play rush down effectively. You already know that he has a great combo game better than mario, and with more damage output. If anything, I believe he's more of a toolbox character who can handle every situation due to great versatility and uniqueness of his moveset.

He is still an adorable troll to the opponent though :4pacman:
 
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Luco

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You guys have already heard most of this stuff from me so i'll just chuck it in spoilers then. :)


@NAKAT has placed first on numerous occasions (I'm sorry NAKAT, I know you get tagged here really often :( ), or at least top 2. Most recent collision tournament was that way, and although diddy was also used, I believe Ness was the main factor in deciding the victory.

@FOW has gone head to head with players like Jtails and ZeRo. Not quite sure what it's resulted in though, and unsure of where he's actually placed... does anyone know where that could be found?

@Villyness (V) and I have both been doing well in Australia (both came 1st at recent tournaments), but the consistency of our results are yet to be tested, so i'm gonna wait till I can call us good pieces of evidence just yet. :)

And quite a few of our Ness mains are taking high positions at tournaments too. @Mecks and @Draconoa44 just recently both got 3rd at tournaments that happened today... It's nice! ^_^
 
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NairWizard

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I don't have any hard data based on experience against any Ike mains. My opinion is just simple extrapolation from my playtime with and against the character; nothing more.

I haven't found Close Combat to be the be-all-end-all solution to projectiles Ike wishes he had. (Don't get me wrong, it's fantastic and opens up how Ike approaches a lot of matchups.)

The rest of Ike's options are welcome upgrades but not much more. Tempest has respectable utility and is quite scary for Little Mac, but I'd never call it a game changer. Paralyzing Counter and Eruption 3 are modest upgrades, and his up-b options are very important but nothing to call the President about.

This is a weird post to be making; I possibly care more about customs than anyone, and think Ike is the poster boy for a character who gets a ton out of them. But I think it's important to not think in binary absolutes, and always have a sense of context and scale in all things.

This is where numbers would be better than words, but we make do with what we've got. I think the correct measure for "How much better is Ike with customs?" is "Quite a lot; no more, no less."
I think you are misunderstanding. No one is thinking in binary, i.e. that Ike without customs is bad and that Ike with customs is top tier. Rather, I'm saying that Ike is good without customs already, and that customs mitigate the main weaknesses that keep him out of top tier, which is susceptibility to juggling and having to approach characters with a projectile.

Close Combat isn't meant to be the end-of-days answer to projectiles (Ike won't magically not have to approach vs. Duck Hunt Dog), but it is a strong start, along with Aether Wave (which gives Ike his own projectile, safer than Kirby's final cutter because Ike has super armor during the attack). Ike as a character isn't very weak to edgeguards in general, but Aether Drive can be used against any character who does have strong edgeguarding vs. Ike, such as Pikachu. There isn't much that Pikachu or Jigglypuff can do to edgeguard Aether Drive: Ike is too far away when he starts it, and the super armor prevents Thunderjolt/float-down b-air (lol) from tearing through him.

Tempest isn't only strong against Little Mac. It's strong against any character who doesn't autosnap the ledge, it's strong against characters who prefer to recover above the stage rather than to it, and it's strong against characters who don't have the aerial mobility to avoid it if Ike jumps off and uses Tempest at higher percents. Oftentimes you can just charge it at the ledge and get free KOs at decent %s. It also forces your opponents to recover low in an effort to autosnap the ledge, because if they try to recover just above the stage or above Ike's head, Tempest can send them flying (either to the side that Ike is facing or to the other end of the stage; I've had this happen against san as Diddy).

Now, Ike without customs. What's cool about Ike is that he has strings much like faster characters have, such as Diddy and Pikachu, but unlike Diddy and Pikachu Ike's hits do a lot of damage, and he also manages to kill earlier than characters who can combo. Landing d-tilt to n-air to jab or some such string is not uncommon and will leave your opponent with nearly a third of his stock missing. B-air is super safe (as san went over) and kills early, and up-air is basically not punishable because of the extreme disjoint and will KO you off the top even earlier than b-air on some stages. Ike is pretty heavy, so he's going to be sitting in rage for quite some time, so these KOs happen even earlier.

When I'm Ike against Pikachu or Diddy I know that if I get grabbed I'm going to take like 18% damage, but I know that if I land a hit on Diddy I'm doing more like 15-25%, and Diddy is very light compared to me, so even if I take double what I'm taking, I'm still going to win faster.

Basically, the risk vs. reward is almost always in Ike's favor. He's like a buffed version of characters like Ganon and Bowser, because while Ganon and Bowser can achieve some followups they're not at all like what Ike can get from his true (and near-true) combos. Ike's followups are safe, too; he doesn't have to make risky reads. Ike is also smaller than these dudes (smaller than Ganon by only a bit though, I believe).

All of that together would probably be a solid character in the upper half of the roster, until you also add in how safe Ike is in neutral. Spaced f-airs and f-tilts are extremely difficult to punish, and Ike's quick jab will catch you if you try to rush in on him after he hits your shield. He can also space a f-air such that he will fall into his d-tilt range and immediately d-tilt you because of the generous autocancel window. These attacks are disjointed and will eat through projectiles, too. The way that Ike consumes and commands space here is difficulty to quantify, as you say about this argument in general, but it is nothing short of impressive.
 
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Browny

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Anyone have any input on the list being generated over here?
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...its-back-8th-vote-period-2nd-december.379736/

Since there are a lot more... competitive-minded players here I would like to see some input over there.

:4diddy: :4sheik:
(gap)
:4greninja: :rosalina: :4yoshi: :4zss:
(gap)
:4bowser: :4duckhunt: :4lucario: :4ness: :4peach: :4pikachu: :4sonic:
:4falcon: :4fox: :4rob:
:4jigglypuff: :4lucina: :4mario: :4marth: :4miibrawl: :4robinf: :4shulk:
:4bowserjr: :4littlemac: :4wario:
:4darkpit: :4link: :4megaman: :4miigun: :4pacman: :4palutena: :4pit: :4villager:
:4luigi: :4falco:
:4drmario: :4myfriends: :4kirby: :4metaknight: :4gaw: :4olimar: :4samus: :4tlink:
:4dedede:
:4charizard: :4dk: :4ganondorf:
:4zelda:
:4wiifit:
(gap)
:4miisword:

Please dont reply in this thread to my post, if you want to have your say on that list please head over to the thread linked and have a vote.

I promise I wont spam links to my thread here often Shaya :)
 

Conda

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Did someone hear a post? I think I read something, but I can't put my finger on it. Or talk about it...

Hhhhnnnrrgghh....

Gosh darn, it escaped me.




:p
 
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deepseadiva

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I've been trying to avoid saying this, but Wii Fit Trainer may in fact be the worst character.

I have been trying and trying, but a cute jab and Sun Salutation can only take you so far.
 

madworlder

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I've been trying to avoid saying this, but Wii Fit Trainer may in fact be the worst character.

I have been trying and trying, but a cute jab and Sun Salutation can only take you so far.
If that's the case, this game's balance alone should take it far. She's got a lot going for her, great recovery, good option selects with her jab, ftilt, and fair. She has powerful smashes, spikes, and projectiles that are made better by Deep Breathing. The absolute worst things about her are her lack of options to cover her immediate front in the air and her low grab range, neither of which I think make the character unplayable. I think she does fine against top tiers like ZSS and Rosalina but struggles on certain stages that tilt a lot (Lylat Cruise and Windy Hill Zone make it hard for her jab string to ground properly) and against shorter characters like Duck Hunt and Pikachu.

I'm not good at making characters seem very strong when I talk about them, but I definitely feel that Wii Fit Trainer is a character that can get wins in a competitive environment, even if I'm not a strong enough player at the moment to make it happen.
 

deepseadiva

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I flat out would not choose her versus short characters ever.

The worst thing about her is her lack of approach-y attacks. She doesn't have an aerial that hits in front of her.
 
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