Character Competitive Impressions

[Locke 06]

I flat out would not choose her versus short characters ever.

The worst thing about her is her lack of approach-y attacks. She doesn't have an aerial that hits in front of her.

Is RAR FAir not an option? NAir has a narrow hitbox, but I've seen that used to start combos on approach.

 

[madworlder]

I flat out would not choose her versus short characters ever.

The worst thing about her is her lack of approach-y attacks. She doesn't have an aerial that hits in front of her.

bair and reverse fair are fine. It's typically better for her to jump with her back facing the opponent.

actually, bair is a great move and it's undersold as a kill move generally imo. Pretty sure I've killed diddy at 70% with it and Deep Breathing

 

[Luco]

I had a fellow refuse to use his main (WFT) on me, opting to go Yoshi instead because he mentioned WFT really struggles against short characters.

That said, she can still be quite scary actually. I think swordfighter would be the all out worst.

 

[madworlder]

WFT's jab, grab, fsmash, nair, fair, usmash, and header all have reduced effectiveness on shorter characters. They'll often whiff, even as punishes, and leave her open. Some of these can be remedied, like using dsmash instead of fsmash, but her grab, jab, and nair all needing to hit deeper on shorter characters can really make it tough on her. I don't think it's unwinnable, but it requires a huge change from her game against medium and larger characters, which is very difficult.

I know next to nothing about swordfighter! No one I play with is interested in the Miis at all!

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Well for SF, a good d-throw u-air read is 20.

why d throw does 4% i have no idea.

Im toying with weights to see if there is an optimal height to width for that throw combination.

Also he plays a defensive spacing game from what ive seen. His cape will probably get him positive or even matchups somewhere. power thrust does sometjing like 13%

 

[Kofu]

WFT does struggle against short characters but I think Ness is just tall enough to be hit by most of her attacks unless he ducks. I'd be more frustrated against Ness as WFT because of his FAir range and options against Sun Salutation.

Over time I agree more with Shaya that Bowser Jr. really isn't that good. He has good range and most of his attacks come out quick, but the size of the hitboxes don't cover enough of his frame to compensate, if that makes sense. It's not like his frame is huge, but a lot of his important spacing moves (mainly FTilt) only cover a miniscule portion of his body and car. He seems pretty vulnerable to projectiles IMO and has a hard time getting in on a lot of characters due to move cooldown. He does have some decent attack strings, especially off of a Clown Cart Dash hit, and a few of his attacks do pretty good damage for how fast they are (mainly UAir). Customs increase his options a little but in general they're not game-changing.

At this point and after facing a few really impressive DKs, I feel that he's better than Bowser. His attacks actually flow and he can get some really dangerous strings off of his ground normals. Bowser has a few advantages--his shield-escaping Up-B (although it's been toned down from Brawl) and his command grab and related customs--but DK just feels like a better character to me. Ever since Brawl it's felt to me like he does what Bowser wants to do, but better. That is, be a big bruiser who can space with long-ranged normals and kill really quickly (they both get juggled hard, though). DK's a lot scarier off-stage than Bowser too, IMO. I think they're a lot closer in viability this time around but DK seems to edge out a win. Bear in mind I haven't fought either with customs, so I have no experience with Bowser's sliding shenanigans or DK's Kong Cyclone.

Just my two cents for the night.

 

[madworlder]

WFT does struggle against short characters but I think Ness is just tall enough to be hit by most of her attacks unless he ducks. I'd be more frustrated against Ness as WFT because of his FAir range and options against Sun Salutation.

Fsmash whiffs on some of his landing recoveries, but it's just a matter of knowing to dsmash instead. You really have to know those types of opportunities, which sucks, but she's definitely playable in the match.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah, Bowser is actually pretty booty, he's a lot better, but they never really fixed any of his major problems from previous installments, they just made him faster. Wouldn't be surprised if he ends up around the top of low tier again.

As for WFT, Ive been playing her a lot, and her main problem is honestly the fact that she cant force her opponent to do anything and just doesnt have the approach tools, range, etc to get in if her opponent plays defensive.

 

[Kofu]

One funny thing I've had happen as Wii Fit Trainer is to charge an FSmash, have people try to roll/airdodge behind me, and have them get hit by the back-facing hitbox. It's entertaining. Not character redeeming, by any means, but certainly funny.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, Bowser is actually pretty booty, he's a lot better, but they never really fixed any of his major problems from previous installments, they just made him faster. Wouldn't be surprised if he ends up around the top of low tier again.

His slowness and lack of movement WAS his major problem besides not having something to deal with projectiles. I think he's pretty honest mid tier this time around.

Why? His fists are intangible on his normals, he has the 14th fastest run speed in the game (tied with Marth. I'll leave it at that). It only gets better when his customs let him waveland and pseudo-wavedash. But now, definitely not low tier lol. He can space a lot of characters out and do things because of his better speed and normal priority. I'd hardly call him low tier in this game, believe me.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

how are duckhunt and pit shaping up. do they have a ton of bad mus and do they hang with the top tier characters well

 

[Yokoblue]

Quick question related to the topic:
Why is Luigi considered worst than Mario ? His recovery is better (with down B and missile) down B is arguably better than Mario's down B, his combo game is better.
Only downside is his sliding (which can be a + with smashes) and no cape...

Can anybody light me up on this ?

 

[Z'zgashi]

His slowness and lack of movement WAS his major problem besides not having something to deal with projectiles. I think he's pretty honest mid tier this time around.

Why? His fists are intangible on his normals, he has the 14th fastest run speed in the game (tied with Marth. I'll leave it at that). It only gets better when his customs let him waveland and pseudo-wavedash. But now, definitely not low tier lol. He can space a lot of characters out and do things because of his better speed and normal priority. I'd hardly call him low tier in this game, believe me.

Look man, I played Bowser in Brawl and still do now, trust me, they didnt fix his major problems. His speed was never a problem for him in Brawl, he WAS decently fast and he DID have okay landing options, his major problems were a giant size/fast fall meant he was juggled for days, his long cooldown after moves making him lack options safe on block, and his linear approach options. He's a little better off in the approach area since fair is a bit better and his jab is safe on block if spaced right, but he still has no strong move that allows him to get in. Side B is good, I mean it was his saving grace in Brawl and honestly still is, but its really his only good option in a lot of situations, making it easy to avoid often. Regardless, he still gets juggled to hell, he still has a hard time getting back to neutral, and he still lacks either a way to force his opponent to approach or his own safe approach, meaning he still has a below average neutral even when he gets back to it, doesnt have the safety to truly rush down, and doesnt have any way to force an approach and take advantage of his defensive options.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I mean, that's neglecting to mention custom Side-Bs which change everything completely (having a dashing command grab is ridiculous on a character like this), but I think he outclasses a lot of what is considered "low tier" in this game. Bowser's foundations are stronger than some of the chars that are considered low tier in the meta IMO.

Also never thought I would consciously ask this question but is Bowser's Bair safe on shield fully spaced? I imagine it is.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Look man, I played Bowser in Brawl and still do now, trust me, they didnt fix his major problems. His speed was never a problem for him in Brawl, he WAS decently fast and he DID have okay landing options, his major problems were a giant size/fast fall meant he was juggled for days, his long cooldown after moves making him lack options safe on block, and his linear approach options. He's a little better off in the approach area since fair is a bit better and his jab is safe on block if spaced right, but he still has no strong move that allows him to get in. Side B is good, I mean it was his saving grace in Brawl and honestly still is, but its really his only good option in a lot of situations, making it easy to avoid often. Regardless, he still gets juggled to hell, he still has a hard time getting back to neutral, and he still lacks either a way to force his opponent to approach or his own safe approach, meaning he still has a below average neutral even when he gets back to it, doesnt have the safety to truly rush down, and doesnt have any way to force an approach and take advantage of his defensive options.

But Bowser's Jab is like...one of THE best moves in the game. Massive range, 12 damage, safe on block. Just, it's a pity it's on Bowser who's huge.

With custom SideBs to actually give Bowser non-telegraphed air mobility, I believe he's a great character and then he might be the best of the heavies. But I do buy arguments that he's worse off than most of the cast.

So I guess the question is, how does he stack vs other heavies? Bowser's main advantage over most of them (without customs) is his AMAZING Jab and generally solid OOS options that can also cover spotdodges easily and potentially KO. DK's Jab isn't quite Bowser status amazing, but he has slightly better tilts and Down-B for neutral, and has a scary SideB instant shield break and U-air/B-air juggles. Charizard's normals I feel overall are slightly worse than Bowser's, but he has a better standard grab and throws, and good edgeguarding with multiple jumps, and can use SideB to get to neutral more easily. Then we have Ganondorf who mostly is worse in neutral than the others minus the sheer legit broken threat of his Dash Attack and D-tilt, but Ganondorf also is a lot scarier than the others when he's in the positive state due to his amazing followup potential and edgeguarding.

My guess is DK and Ganondorf are the overall winners in this bunch. DK seems the most well rounded in neutral while still having pretty good followups. Ganondorf is juuuust threatening enough in neutral and takes followups to the extreme and literally kills people fast enough to force people to not sleep on him. Both I would argue fit around the very middle of the cast currently.

Completely unsure about DeDeDe right now honestly.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah I wasnt counting customs. At least early in the competitive Wii U scene, I dont see customs being allowed since its just way too much of a hassle to get everything unlocked, so at least atm Im not worrying about them. If this ever changes down the line and big name tournaments start picking them up, then I'll consider them again, but its not looking likely currently.

@ TTTTTsd if spaced right bair is mostly safe (like used OoS as youre moving away so you dont have to use Bowser's garbage air acceleration). Still unsafe on power shield and can be punished by characters with something long range or a lot of speed; like I could see characters with zairs or speed like Sonic/Fox/Falcon/etc punishing it. It auto cancels, has pretty insane range, and Bowser's low jump plus air speed makes it pretty safe if not overused.

 

[Emblem Lord]

To whoever asked about Luigi vs Mario I'm fairly certain no one in their right mind thinks Luigi is worse then Mario.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Realtalk: Is there any reason to use Lucina over Marth? I saw a mini debate about this on /r/smashbros and was interested in what you guys thought.

 

[Esquire]

Realtalk: Is there any reason to use Lucina over Marth? I saw a mini debate about this on /r/smashbros and was interested in what you guys thought.

IIRC, Lucina hits about 10% harder than Marth's sour spot damage. No difference in speed or intangibles. No true numerical advantage over Marth. Marth has a much higher ceiling with his tipper.

Reasons to use Lucina over Marth are pure flavor reasons, not competitive. Unless we're missing something.

 

[Lavani]

IIRC, Lucina hits about 10% harder than Marth's sour spot damage. No difference in speed or intangibles. No true numerical advantage over Marth. Marth has a much higher ceiling with his tipper.

Reasons to use Lucina over Marth are pure flavor reasons, not competitive. Unless we're missing something.

Not to mention Lucina also has less shieldstun than Marth across the board.

Waifu points are the only reason to use her.

Except Marth is still the better waifu.

 

[Terotrous]

Realtalk: Is there any reason to use Lucina over Marth? I saw a mini debate about this on /r/smashbros and was interested in what you guys thought.

I can see how there might be some MUs where she does better, mostly against highly mobile characters where getting that precise spacing may not always be possible. That being said Marth is clearly a much better character overall.

 

[mimgrim]

Realtalk: Is there any reason to use Lucina over Marth? I saw a mini debate about this on /r/smashbros and was interested in what you guys thought.

Other then liking one character over another, no.

In terms of gameplay Lucina is just a worst Marth overall since she should, in opitmal play, end up playing exactly like a Marth anyway and without a tipper she is just outclassed by him in every conceivable way that matters.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Completely unsure about DeDeDe right now honestly.

Dedede has matchup polarization issues. I feel like he actually has more favorable matchups than Ganondorf, but he also loses his bad matchups harder, mainly because his customs don't really address his bad matchups, and he has no good way of getting around projectiles. His damage racking is better than the other heavyweights and his edgeguarding and recovery are good, but he's also the weakest of the bunch in terms of reliable kill moves. I think he'll probably be relegated to being a counterpick character because of this, as he does have some matchups in which he does better than you'd think.

 

[Terotrous]

Other then liking one character over another, no.

In terms of gameplay Lucina is just a worst Marth overall since she should, in opitmal play, end up playing exactly like a Marth anyway and without a tipper she is just outclassed by him in every conceivable way that matters.

Do we know that Marth and Lucina are literally 100% identical in terms of frame data and damage except for Lucina being a tiny bit shorter and not having tippers? In 1.0.4, Lucina got some change to her Jab that wasn't applied to Marth, so there may be some differences.

 

[NAKAT]

And there aren't any notable D3s placing high offline to my knowledge, save for Vex. Anybody wanna fill in the blanks?

Now that I think about it, this may be a good thread of conversation. Anybody wanna talk about the placement of peeps' characters in this developing meta? Like, players AND characters? Maybe we can distill some pretty interesting factoids from it. I'd love to hear about Brawlheads that @ NAKAT mentioned earlier.

Just don't turn it into x player is better than y, please. :v

Smooth Criminal

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Nakat

There goes all my Smash 4 placements going 97% Ness/Fox

 

[Locuan]

Realtalk: Is there any reason to use Lucina over Marth? I saw a mini debate about this on /r/smashbros and was interested in what you guys thought.

While it has been said by some above me, if you want to go into more detail regarding Marth and Lucina differences there is a thread that talks about them. It also highlights the hitlag differences numerically.

 

[Flamecircle]

While it has been said by some above me, if you want to go into more detail regarding Marth and Lucina differences there is a thread that talks about them. It also highlights the shield stun differences numerically.

So... Lucina's perk is, besides a decent upsmash hitbox, that her "tipper" attacks have less shield lag than Marth's?

 

[Locuan]

Taking F-smash as an example:

Spoiler

Fsmash

LUCINA
Damage: 14.725
Base Knockback: 65
Knockback Growth: 80
Hitlag Multiplier: 1.0×
SDI Multiplier: 1.0×

MARTH
Damage: 13, 18
Base Knockback: 55, 80
Knockback Growth: 80
Hitlag Multiplier: 0.7×, 1.5×
SDI Multiplier: 1.0×, 0.0×

As you can see, Marth's attacks have two hit-lag modifiers. One corresponds to sour-spot hits, while the other corresponds to tipper hits. So Lucina's "tipper" and sour-spot hits have the same hit-lag, while Marth's differ. I do not know about the hit-box data, and I currently do not have the link to that so I can't give my input on that.

 

[Esquire]

So... Lucina's perk is, besides a decent upsmash hitbox, that her "tipper" attacks have less shield lag than Marth's?

This is actually a negative for Lucina. The thread is concluding that Marth's weaker sourspots enable Marth to play a much faster game than Lucina's marginal 12.5% boosted strikes using the same approach, but Marth's tipper results in more damage, knockback, and shield knockback. The shield knockback off of tippers compensates for the greater shield lag.

So not only is Marth safer on shields than Lucina, but he is also safer than Lucina when using an aggressive playstyle. Which many Lucina backers claim that the latter is the opposite.

Also, Lucina and Marth's USmash have pretty much the same properties outside of damage and tipper knockback, which is the general mechanic. No real difference there.

 

[HeroMystic]

So in other words, she's another Dark Pit.

 

[Nobie]

Also, Lucina and Marth's USmash have pretty much the same properties outside of damage and tipper knockback, which is the general mechanic. No real difference there.

It's not enough to make up for the difference with Marth's other strengths overall, but the slightly stronger damage of her Up Smash compared to Marth's non-tippered version basically gives Lucina a better running Up Smash.

 

[Yonder]

To whoever asked about Luigi vs Mario I'm fairly certain no one in their right mind thinks Luigi is worse then Mario.

I thought almost every single person ever did. When you look at tier lists so far, people not only put Mario above Luigi, but they put him 4 tiers above AND in high parts of high tier[ Which is ridiculous].

Personally, it's a close call, either one could be a spot ahead of the other. Luigi has better combos [Mario only have throw to u tilt or down b, two hits.] recovery, and kill power after the patch. Mario moves faster [Which is very important], better traction, and better offstage game. Looks like a close call to me.

[I still wanna smack the people putting Mario 3 or 4 tiers ahead of Luigi though. Lol]

 

[Emblem Lord]

luigi is superior to mario.

objective fact.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luigi has two things Mario doesn't have...an actually good F-air and Fireball. Plus his damage output basically wasn't touched at all, while Mario's got nerfed.

They both have bad recoveries and bad range, just Luigi is harder to approach and is scarier when he gets in.

 

[NairWizard]

Observation: shielding is not as good in this game.

The more I play Pikachu in this game, the more I realize just how useless shield is for this character, and probably for several characters. Pikachu has always been notable for mobility (and poor grab range), but shield was still strong on him, and it's only after some discussion with others and some reflection that I've figured out why it's so much weaker as an option in this game. In Brawl, dash -> shield -> dash -> shield was a top-level strategy that worked for most characters. But dash -> shield has been weakened.

1) Rolls are stronger, and if you're shielding you can't punish rolls. Drop shield, turn around, reshield/grab/jab is harder in this game, partly because...
2) On whiff (as in, if nothing hits your shield, as Shaya pointed out earlier in this thread), shielding has 4-6 extra frames. This is huge and makes a dashing shield a serious commitment.
3) Offensive options are better, such as dash attacks and jabs across the board, so the opportunity cost of shielding is much higher. Part of this is that...
4) Grabs are worse, because grab armor doesn't exist, so you can't just grab through someone's attack. Attacking is now better than it was in the past, because it flat out beats most grabs (except pivot grabs of course).

The only time I ever shield now at least as Pikachu is vs. projectiles, an obvious ledge getup (and still there are better options), and on a platform sometimes.

I still do shield as my other characters, but I wonder if that's a mistake too and if there's a superior playstyle I could be using for them. It might have to do with the fact that my other characters are taller and less mobile overall.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Spacing/positioning is more important than ever, @ NairWizard . I'm learning this the hard way myself. I find myself using my shield less and less with time.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

Well, I certainly don't agree that you should never or rarely shield, but it's definitely not a one size fits all defensive solution. There are many viable defensive options in this game and you generally should be making use of a lot of them to keep your defense more unpredictable.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

on zero suit i shield all day

up b out of shield, jab out of shield, up tilt out of shield.

all great.

i don't even have a meaningful shield grab.

 

[NairWizard]

Well, I certainly don't agree that you should never or rarely shield, but it's definitely not a one size fits all defensive solution. There are many viable defensive options in this game and you generally should be making use of a lot of them to keep your defense more unpredictable.

It's probably more useful on characters who don't have short grab range like Pikachu and less mobility. Being taller is a factor too.

But at least in my experience with Pikachu, even when shield works there's a strong opportunity cost: I could have been doing something else that would advance my position better. It's a very situational tool, kind of like rolling now, in my opinion.

Having good out of shield options (as in, options that don't require you to drop your shield; I don't count jab as one of these) probably also helps. People with up-smashes which cover to their sides can JC up-smash out of shield to cover rolls, or up-b out of shield as SFP just pointed out.

 

[Nobie]

Luigi has two things Mario doesn't have...an actually good F-air and Fireball. Plus his damage output basically wasn't touched at all, while Mario's got nerfed.

They both have bad recoveries and bad range, just Luigi is harder to approach and is scarier when he gets in.

Interestingly and relevant to this conversation, Zero and D1 were on Ultrachen talking about Smash 4, and they basically said that they think Mario is a better character than Luigi.