Character Competitive Impressions

[Vipermoon]

I'm theorycrafting here, but has it ever been verified that the durability mechanic exists to balance Robin's tools for being "too strong (to Sakurai's mind)"?

That's how I've always interpreted it, at least. I don't think they're nearly strong enough to warrant finite uses, at least not the tomes, but it seems like something Sakurai would consider.

I still struggle to conceive of why they're the slowest character in the roster. I get that it's "accurate representation" with the slow, unathletic mage thing, but it feels like they're crippled by design due to it.

Then again, I feel the same way about Wii Fit and Palutena...~

I have no doubt in my mind Sakurai did it because it was a unique thing to do. Not because of being too strong.

 

[A_Kae]

I'm theorycrafting here, but has it ever been verified that the durability mechanic exists to balance Robin's tools for being "too strong (to Sakurai's mind)"?

That's how I've always interpreted it, at least. I don't think they're nearly strong enough to warrant finite uses, at least not the tomes, but it seems like something Sakurai would consider.

I still struggle to conceive of why they're the slowest character in the roster. I get that it's "accurate representation" with the slow, unathletic mage thing, but it feels like they're crippled by design due to it.

Then again, I feel the same way about Wii Fit and Palutena...~

I'm absolutely sure that durability wasn't added for balance reasons. It was added for uniqueness and proper series representation.

Edit: too slow on posting

 

[FullMoon]

Except it does matter because if a character is perceived as good, more people are likely to pick them up and more likely to help develop their meta game. I don't think Metaknight is over that hump yet. Hell, it took people nearly two years to figure out were really good in Brawl and this situation is more or less the same. might have the tools now but it's definitely a hard sell. He very well could be viable but, like the three I mentioned before, he strikes me as someone who won't be able to widely prove this unless 1. a long period of time passes or 2. minor changes are made that make it more apparent.

It still doesn't affect how the character plays. The top tier tools Meta Knight has right now are not suddenly bad because people think he's bad for whatever reason. His metagame might not be as well developed as say, Sheik, but that doesn't make the character bad, just unexplored if that even is the case as I'm not aware of how the meta development for MK is going

Hell if we're going to judge a character based on just public opinion and "metagame development" instead of fact, then you should add Greninja to your list of "need buffs" because in the head of many he's still considered to be bad just because of the nerfs, and MK at least has people repping him and consistently doing well with him, Greninja only has aMSa and even he is not going to use Greninja at EVO.

We should judge a character as bad or good on their tools and match-ups spreads, not public reputation as that has no effect on gameplay and the character's performance whatsoever. Otherwise it just becomes a popularity contest.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Alright, alright... Jesus Pete... Should have gone with my gut instinct to not include Metaknight in my previous list...

Is this thread in the same boat about the others I listed or am I grossly misinformed and naive there too?

 

[Kofu]

Since Samus was brought up, I thought I'd chime in and say that I don't necessarily think she's awful. I've run into a few Samus mains that basically destroyed me, partially because I didn't expect them to go aggro and also because they were probably better than me. Unfortunately they didn't stick around so I didn't get to know the MU. But I think she has potential, it's just that there are other characters that can do better with less work.

Here's a list of characters that I would place in low tier as of now (listed alphabetically here):



These 11 characters are those I feel have issues compared to most others (Palutena and Brawler are only here for customs off, however). are also fairly weak, just not to the extent of the others (and these four also get very nice boons from customs). Anyway, of the eleven I mentioned, I don't see much hope for the following without patches:



Don't get me wrong, they all have good attributes that can be used to net wins. But their options are intrinsically more shallow and thus they won't be able to do as well as others on a regular basis (in Mewtwo's case his weight, large frame, and occasionally odd hitboxes are bigger problems, his moveset itself is decent). That leaves these six:



While they all have issues as well, I feel like their strengths make up for whatever problems they have better than the five I mentioned before. Doc has the same frame data as Mario, essentially, but hits noticeably harder and has a wicked kill option in Super Jump Punch. Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, and Robin are all zoners. Samus and WFT have good combo games and offstage options, while Robin has frightening range and power with the Levin Sword. Brawler is a slippery character only really held back by a lack of kill options. Game & Watch is similar, but he exchanges some slipperiness for range and disjoint.

Also re: being given more pressure on shields, the only ways to do that would to either give him lots of added shield damage or to just increase the base damage on his attacks. Neither option sounds good to me. A better choice would be to give him partial body invincibility on his limbs for his attacks, making him safer without making him even MORE powerful.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Luco

I dunno where exactly I'd place her, but I wouldn't lump her anywhere near the likes of Zelda or D3. She's got a decent kit and a decent MU spread (in theory, anyway), like Gheb said.

@ Fatmanonice

Where you hiding the D3 tech, Charles? /My Way parody reference

Real talk dude, D3 has very little room to grow. All that's left for him, I feel, is optimization and tweaking Gordo setups. Probably makes me the most bleak of the D3 crew (calling dibs on a Chunky Kong-esque part in the rap rn) for saying that, but I'm trying. I see dividends in my "vortex" research, but whether the payoff is worth it, I'll find out at EVO.

About the only paradigm shift I foresee for the character is a change of thought to "why the **** am I playing this character again?"

Smooth Criminal

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Ganon just needs a grab range proportional to his body-size and a jab that can actually beat spot dodges.

Also, he dies sooner than Captain Falcon off the top, which is... well, it's not good. He could probably do with living an extra 10-20% to make more use of his rage.

 

[adom4]

Also re: being given more pressure on shields, the only ways to do that would to either give him lots of added shield damage or to just increase the base damage on his attacks. Neither option sounds good to me. A better choice would be to give him partial body invincibility on his limbs for his attacks, making him safer without making him even MORE powerful.

Ganondorf's Shield damage is fine, U-smash, air wizkick & especially F-smash are great shield breaking tools, also he already has the highest damage per hit in the game (maybe except buster Shulk).
He needs more range on his grab, he shouldn't grab like a T-rex.

 

[⑨ball]

Do we actually have any data on grab hitbox sizes?

 

[Browny]

Why do people want Metaknight to be a good character in this game.

Didn't we all suffer enough?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Probably going to put my foot in my mouth for Christ knows the umpteenth time in this thread but with I think it's about making his defensive options stronger by making being defensive more rewarding with him. I feel like the grieving period about how he doesn't play like his Brawl incarnation has passed and people are beginning to appreciate what a defensive monster he can be. We talked about this before but I think the gordos being stronger and having a higher minimum for when they get reflected back would help. It's a weird situation because of the whole returning cast, his playstyle probably changed the most between the two games so there's still a lot of adjusting still going on.

 

[Kofu]

Ganondorf's Shield damage is fine, U-smash, air wizkick & especially F-smash are great shield breaking tools, also he already has the highest damage per hit in the game (maybe except buster Shulk).
He needs more range on his grab, he shouldn't grab like a T-rex.

I agree his shield-breaking abilities are fine. I've broken plenty of shields with him and had my own broken, once from standing on a platform and shielding like an idiot while Ganon USmashed at me (I felt stupid afterward, trust me ).

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'm theorycrafting here, but has it ever been verified that the durability mechanic exists to balance Robin's tools for being "too strong (to Sakurai's mind)"?

I still struggle to conceive of why they're the slowest character in the roster. I get that it's "accurate representation" with the slow, unathletic mage thing, but it feels like they're crippled by design due to it.

The justifcation is actually backwards. Robin is the slowest character because he "makes up for it with powerful ranged magic." according to the ingame tip.

Dunno what reality Sakurai's living in where "powerful ranged magic" includes a basic spell worse than Falco's laser, two enhanced spells that trade with any projectile, a beam that can be interrupted and wasted on 20 frame startup, if not crouched under and avoided entirely, a fire spell that loses to forward roll and low dashing profiles from about 60% of the cast, a frame 16 command grab, all with the durability mechanic, but there ya go.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Probably going to put my foot in my mouth for Christ knows the umpteenth time in this thread but with I think it's about making his defensive options stronger by making being defensive more rewarding with him. I feel like the grieving period about how he doesn't play like his Brawl incarnation has passed and people are beginning to appreciate what a defensive monster he can be. We talked about this before but I think the gordos being stronger and having a higher minimum for when they get reflected back would help. It's a weird situation because of the whole returning cast, his playstyle probably changed the most between the two games so there's still a lot of adjusting still going on.

What size shoe do you wear? At the very least permit me to accomodate you by getting clean ones. They taste all funky if they're used.

...again, I kid, but a lot us D3s are finished grieving over the loss of our old Brawl kit. We're making due. You gotta understand, though, there's nothing monstrous about D3's kit on defense. We literally have one decent OoS/retaliatory option in dtilt, and that's pretty much it. Everything else is too slow or too cumbersome to use on reaction for the express purpose of fighting back from a disadvantaged/bad neutral state. We have to bait people into overextending to get anything done. Either they whiff and we punish, they mis-space, or we trade and its in our favor.

I'll say it again, it's more of a counteroffensive playstyle that's aimed for, which isn't exactly the same as defense. We want you to **** up when we press buttons or chuck Gordos at you.

Smooth Criminal

 

[adom4]

I agree his shield-breaking abilities are fine. I've broken plenty of shields with him and had my own broken, once from standing on a platform and shielding like an idiot while Ganon USmashed at me (I felt stupid afterward, trust me ).

One thing i like to do when the opponent shield is low is to get close & spam F-smash, when done right they are almost forced to risk a spotdodge or pray for a perfect shield.

 

[Fatmanonice]

His grab range is still pretty solid and he's got good reach. Maybe I'm splitting hairs by calling these defensive properties? I dunno. I just know from my own experience that he's not a character that's able to just run in and has to wait for opportunities and dun goofs to get things done. I feel like he's a character built from the ground up for defense. Granted, there are characters like that have much better defensive tools but these characters have a much easier time being offensive too. If you took away the D's defensive properties, you'd basically have a slow, floaty Bowser with much less reliable kill options.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Why do people want Metaknight to be a good character in this game.

Didn't we all suffer enough?

Nah dude we need to suffer more

 

[GeneralLedge]

IMO the best Dedede fix would be removing the obscene speed boost the gordo gets when it is reflected. You toss Gordo along and it slowly bounces up and down and then your opponent Nairs it and it hits you in the face at mach 4. Why, though? To prevent Dedede from zoning himself, by instead thwacking himself in the face? To prevent Dedede from following up on it and turning the game into a tennis match?

I mean I guess the devs were scared of the thought of Dedede smacking a reflected gordo back again with fsmash or downB (even though I doubt the angle gordo'd choose to follow would be helpful). But Dedede gets at least a little bit of capitalization off of gordo zoning, and so would his opponents if they reflected it with only a doubled speed increase instead of a x20 speed increase. Maybe the metagame with Dedede would have been too deep? IDGI.

Or would Gordo sticking around for longer than it would if it were smacked out of bounds be a bad thing?

 

[SwoodGrommet]

The justifcation is actually backwards. Robin is the slowest character because he "makes up for it with powerful ranged magic." according to the ingame tip.

Dunno what reality Sakurai's living in where "powerful ranged magic" includes a basic spell worse than Falco's laser, two enhanced spells that trade with any projectile, a beam that can be interrupted and wasted on 20 frame startup, if not crouched under and avoided entirely, a fire spell that loses to forward roll and low dashing profiles from about 60% of the cast, a frame 16 command grab, all with the durability mechanic, but there ya go.

Just learned a ton about Robin.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I decided to brainstorm some ideas for changes to make outlier characters more in line with the rest of the cast, mostly as an exercise for thinking about game balance. The aim is to help balance the game without changing individual characters' overall feel/effectiveness. I'll likely do a bunch of them if they're not received poorly, but I have my first one in Sheik:

http://pastebin.com/Hgg8fv50

Spoiler

Sheik:

Jab2: Active frames reduced from 3 to 2.
(Shaving down unnecessary hitbox walls to subtly mitigate close-quarters superiority. Many of the best characters have unnaturally high amounts of active frames on pokes like this.)

Forward-Aerial: Autocancel window decreased from 11-35 to 21-35.
(This means you would have to use F-Air before the apex of a shorthop in order to get it to autocancel. This allows it to still function as an anti-air and combo tool effectively while requiring more commitment from her when used for spacing.)

Back-Aerial: Damage increased on sweetspot from 7/7/8 to 7/9/10.
(Gives her more KO potential on a well-spaced B-Air in a way that is more rewarding the better it is spaced.)

Neutral-Special: 0b/180g knockback changed to 100f/2w.
(Changes the move to fixed knockback so that it doesn't put opponents into the air at higher percents and reduces its ability to lead into other moves offstage. This also makes it unsafe to hit with at very close range.)

Up-Special: Intangibility reduced from 19-53 to 35-54. Windbox removed from reappearance. Always has 20 frames of landing lag.
(Increases commitment so that people have more of a chance to intercept it, as well as reduces frame advantage after a missed hit. The reapperance hitbox hits on Frame 55, so the extra frame of intangibility at the end makes it so Sheik trades on reappearance if an opponent has a hitbox waiting.)

Down-Special: Active frames reduced from 8 to 4. Invincibility frames on start-up removed. Disables drift throughout the animation. Doing the attack early on the first kick no longer reduces the overall animation length.
(Increasing precision and weakening its defensive flexibility while keeping it effective offensively. Reducing the number of active frames to a range more commonly seen in single-hit attacks makes it so your timing must be more precise to hit with it. Disabling drift makes it more predictable so that a properly-spaced defender can reliably trade/punish while reducing its flexibility in range. Being unable to reduce the endlag on a missed Down-Special means that using it to escape combos can actually be chased, making Jump/Down-Special a significant escape mix-up instead of Down-Special being used every time.)

 

[ARGHETH]

Isn't B-throw a kill throw tho?

Depends on your definition of kill throw, since without rage from default position on FD, it kills at ~150.

Whaat. Do you know the grabrange? A decent to good grabrange in this game always seems a little broken to me. You can shieldgrab landings/landing aerials more easily, you can punish any close range grounded hit more easily... you can walk up and grab. And having a fast dash/run speed or "boost grab" is a little broken as we all should know. You can't stand still against Falcon if he's in zoning range or just out of it. He also slides so far to put you into a worse position once he get's a dash grab. Or he goes so far that you might not even be able to punish him. Play as Sonic for a little bit and see how it feels against characters like Mario and slower. You can move around in zoning range and don't have to be afraid or anything unless maybe you're at the edge of a stage, since you can move in and (especially) out so fast and without fear.

Now play against characters like CF or Sheik. You can't safely get out of there by just running away or staying a little away from them. Oftentimes it feels like you're getting cought by Falcon even though Sonic should be running faster. But his dashgrab is so insane that he still gets you. You could always be grabbed or dashattacked suddenly. And in Sheiks case she even has needles if you ever try to use a spindash. Just the presence of fast running plus good grabrange is making the opponent having to fear it and always do something to not be suddenly attacked by that. Even jumping is often too slow since you might not be high enough fast enough to avoid dashgrabs/attacks.

Robin has good grabrange, though the slowness would hold her back a little, but with good runspeed it would easily be a great tool.

...who was talking about grab range? I was more talking about the slow pummel, useless Uthrow, slightly less than useless Fthrow, "killing" Bthrow, and Dthrow, which only combos into Uair if the opponent does nothing or airdodges. And "decent to good" grab range on Robin wouldn't be anywhere near broken, since Robin's one of the slowest characters in the game and has very few combos off of his throws.

 

[Wintropy]

Probably going to put my foot in my mouth for Christ knows the umpteenth time in this thread but with I think it's about making his defensive options stronger by making being defensive more rewarding with him. I feel like the grieving period about how he doesn't play like his Brawl incarnation has passed and people are beginning to appreciate what a defensive monster he can be. We talked about this before but I think the gordos being stronger and having a higher minimum for when they get reflected back would help. It's a weird situation because of the whole returning cast, his playstyle probably changed the most between the two games so there's still a lot of adjusting still going on.

Got absolutely bodied by a Dedede player at a tourney this weekend, and I can't help but agree with this.

Gordos make for great stage control tools, his throws set up for follow-up combos, his n-air and b-air make approaching difficult and he can just outright cancel a grounded approach with neutral-b. Approaching in the air can be just as difficult for certain characters (be strong for me, my dear departed Pit), with disjoints and favourable trades for days, while his weight and recovery make him very difficult to gimp.

Yeah, he's combo food if you can get into his space, but I find that a tall task in itself. He's definitely not Brawldede, though I think he's got potential with a different style entirely.

 

[Speed Boost]

Why is it that FG is filled with what would be considered low-mid tier characters? You would think you would see a lot of Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, etc.

Instead I see a ton of Link, Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ganon, and Ike. Not that these characters are bad, but I would think it would be the other way around.

I've heard it said in the past that some of these heavies and zoning characters go up a tier or two in even a little lag, but that doesn't explain all the Marthcina. What am I missing?

The most common characters I see that would actually be considered high tier are Falcon, Mario, Yoshi and Roy. Any thoughts on why FG isn't full of top tiers?

 

[Thinkaman]

Why is it that FG is filled with what would be considered low-mid tier characters? You would think you would see a lot of Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, etc.

Instead I see a ton of Link, Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ganon, and Ike. Not that these characters are bad, but I would think it would be the other way around.

I've heard it said in the past that some of these heavies and zoning characters go up a tier or two in even a little lag, but that doesn't explain all the Marthcina. What am I missing.

The most common characters I see that would actually be considered high tier are Falcon, Mario, Yoshi and Roy. Any thoughts on why FG isn't full of top tiers?

Spikes make up a minority of the population in even the most competitive of games.

 

[Firefoxx]

Why is it that FG is filled with what would be considered low-mid tier characters? You would think you would see a lot of Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, etc.

Instead I see a ton of Link, Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ganon, and Ike. Not that these characters are bad, but I would think it would be the other way around.

I've heard it said in the past that some of these heavies and zoning characters go up a tier or two in even a little lag, but that doesn't explain all the Marthcina. What am I missing?

The most common characters I see that would actually be considered high tier are Falcon, Mario, Yoshi and Roy. Any thoughts on why FG isn't full of top tiers?

A combination of character popularity, ease of use, and being helped by lag.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Because casuals. That and alot of mid tiers have a very strong fanbase.

For the FE reps, for example there was a recent poll in japan for the most popular lords. Ike and Marth were at the top.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I decided to brainstorm some ideas for changes to make outlier characters more in line with the rest of the cast, mostly as an exercise for thinking about game balance. The aim is to help balance the game without changing individual characters' overall feel/effectiveness. I'll likely do a bunch of them if they're not received poorly, but I have my first one in Sheik:

http://pastebin.com/Hgg8fv50

Spoiler

Sheik:

Jab2: Active frames reduced from 3 to 2.
(Shaving down unnecessary hitbox walls to subtly mitigate close-quarters superiority. Many of the best characters have unnaturally high amounts of active frames on pokes like this.)

Forward-Aerial: Autocancel window decreased from 11-35 to 21-35.
(This means you would have to use F-Air before the apex of a shorthop in order to get it to autocancel. This allows it to still function as an anti-air and combo tool effectively while requiring more commitment from her when used for spacing.)

Back-Aerial: Damage increased on sweetspot from 7/7/8 to 7/9/10.
(Gives her more KO potential on a well-spaced B-Air in a way that is more rewarding the better it is spaced.)

Neutral-Special: 0b/180g knockback changed to 100f/2w.
(Changes the move to fixed knockback so that it doesn't put opponents into the air at higher percents and reduces its ability to lead into other moves offstage. This also makes it unsafe to hit with at very close range.)

Up-Special: Intangibility reduced from 19-53 to 35-54. Windbox removed from reappearance. Always has 20 frames of landing lag.
(Increases commitment so that people have more of a chance to intercept it, as well as reduces frame advantage after a missed hit. The reapperance hitbox hits on Frame 55, so the extra frame of intangibility at the end makes it so Sheik trades on reappearance if an opponent has a hitbox waiting.)

Down-Special: Active frames reduced from 8 to 4. Invincibility frames on start-up removed. Disables drift throughout the animation. Doing the attack early on the first kick no longer reduces the overall animation length.
(Increasing precision and weakening its defensive flexibility while keeping it effective offensively. Reducing the number of active frames to a range more commonly seen in single-hit attacks makes it so your timing must be more precise to hit with it. Disabling drift makes it more predictable so that a properly-spaced defender can reliably trade/punish while reducing its flexibility in range. Being unable to reduce the endlag on a missed Down-Special means that using it to escape combos can actually be chased, making Jump/Down-Special a significant escape mix-up instead of Down-Special being used every time.)

Curious about buffing Bair. I don't think she would lose enough through the other changes to warrant such a buff. The most I'd do is make it 7/8/8. All of the other changes look good, with changes to neutral b/down b being largely needed, and the up b, jab, and Fair changes making sense.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

When I play on FG, I see a ton of ,, and, all of which are insanely frustrating characters to face against because of Lag.

I decided to brainstorm some ideas for changes to make outlier characters more in line with the rest of the cast, mostly as an exercise for thinking about game balance. The aim is to help balance the game without changing individual characters' overall feel/effectiveness. I'll likely do a bunch of them if they're not received poorly, but I have my first one in Sheik:

http://pastebin.com/Hgg8fv50

Spoiler

Sheik:

Jab2: Active frames reduced from 3 to 2.
(Shaving down unnecessary hitbox walls to subtly mitigate close-quarters superiority. Many of the best characters have unnaturally high amounts of active frames on pokes like this.)

Forward-Aerial: Autocancel window decreased from 11-35 to 21-35.
(This means you would have to use F-Air before the apex of a shorthop in order to get it to autocancel. This allows it to still function as an anti-air and combo tool effectively while requiring more commitment from her when used for spacing.)

Back-Aerial: Damage increased on sweetspot from 7/7/8 to 7/9/10.
(Gives her more KO potential on a well-spaced B-Air in a way that is more rewarding the better it is spaced.)

Neutral-Special: 0b/180g knockback changed to 100f/2w.
(Changes the move to fixed knockback so that it doesn't put opponents into the air at higher percents and reduces its ability to lead into other moves offstage. This also makes it unsafe to hit with at very close range.)

Up-Special: Intangibility reduced from 19-53 to 35-54. Windbox removed from reappearance. Always has 20 frames of landing lag.
(Increases commitment so that people have more of a chance to intercept it, as well as reduces frame advantage after a missed hit. The reapperance hitbox hits on Frame 55, so the extra frame of intangibility at the end makes it so Sheik trades on reappearance if an opponent has a hitbox waiting.)

Down-Special: Active frames reduced from 8 to 4. Invincibility frames on start-up removed. Disables drift throughout the animation. Doing the attack early on the first kick no longer reduces the overall animation length.
(Increasing precision and weakening its defensive flexibility while keeping it effective offensively. Reducing the number of active frames to a range more commonly seen in single-hit attacks makes it so your timing must be more precise to hit with it. Disabling drift makes it more predictable so that a properly-spaced defender can reliably trade/punish while reducing its flexibility in range. Being unable to reduce the endlag on a missed Down-Special means that using it to escape combos can actually be chased, making Jump/Down-Special a significant escape mix-up instead of Down-Special being used every time.)

All of these changes look good. Something else I would change is her F-Smash so that it actually connects properly.

 

[A_Kae]

Why is it that FG is filled with what would be considered low-mid tier characters? You would think you would see a lot of Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, etc.

Instead I see a ton of Link, Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ganon, and Ike. Not that these characters are bad, but I would think it would be the other way around.

I've heard it said in the past that some of these heavies and zoning characters go up a tier or two in even a little lag, but that doesn't explain all the Marthcina. What am I missing?

The most common characters I see that would actually be considered high tier are Falcon, Mario, Yoshi and Roy. Any thoughts on why FG isn't full of top tiers?

Casual players (which is what FG is mainly comprised of) don't care/know about tiers nearly as much as competitive. So who gets used the most is a popularity thing. And all the characters you mentioned are very popular.

Also, it could just be random chance that you see those. I rarely see Yoshi and Marth on FG, but a lot of ZSS and Ryu, for example.

 

[Ffamran]

Spikes make up a minority of the population in even the most competitive of games.

Uh... What? Did you mean spikes make up a minority of the kills or Sheik... or Ike? Now I feel like Spike from Tom & Jerry is somehow in the game... Well, there's Duck Hunt Dog so... yeah...

Why is it that FG is filled with what would be considered low-mid tier characters? You would think you would see a lot of Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, etc.

Instead I see a ton of Link, Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ganon, and Ike. Not that these characters are bad, but I would think it would be the other way around.

I've heard it said in the past that some of these heavies and zoning characters go up a tier or two in even a little lag, but that doesn't explain all the Marthcina. What am I missing?

The most common characters I see that would actually be considered high tier are Falcon, Mario, Yoshi and Roy. Any thoughts on why FG isn't full of top tiers?

Anyway, input lag makes projectiles more difficult to punish, characters with low end lag like Little Mac are more difficult to punish, you can get away with rolls, spot dodges, and air dodges more with input lag. This sort of makes it so that characters like Link, Villager, Ness, Sonic, and Captain Falcon are common in For Glory, but characters like Falco, Marth, Meta Knight, and Zelda who are more precision heavy or need to connect combos or something to function don't do as well. Other characters like Mario, Luigi, Fox, and Bowser just do fine and sometimes better since input lag skews reactions to Ganondorf, Bowser, Charizard, Ike, Shulk, and other hard hitting characters.

Curious about buffing Bair. I don't think she would lose enough through the other changes to warrant such a buff. The most I'd do is make it 7/8/8. All of the other changes look good, with changes to neutral b/down b being largely needed, and the up b, jab, and Fair changes making sense.

Sheik's Bair at launch wasn't that strong. This is from Thinkaman's data dump for 1.0.4.

Bair
Frame  4- 6:    11%        30b/100g (KO@ 152%) 361°
Frame  4- 6:    10%        30b/100g (KO@ 166%) 361°
Frame  7-14:     5%        10b/101g (KO@ 335%) 361°
Max Damage:    11%

Now, it's even weaker. From Aero's frame data site.

Bair
Frame  4- 6:    8%        30b/100g (KO@ ???%) 361°
Frame  4- 6:    7%        30b/100g (KO@ ???%) 361°
Frame  7-14:     5%        10b/101g (KO@ 335%) 361°
Max Damage:    11%

Compare this to Falco's. Pure knockback growth and damage makes Falco's Bair deadly as hell, but it's held back by range and only 2 active frames for the sweet-spot. A 2% difference and 30 more KBG allows Falco to kill 35% earlier. At the ledge, Falco can and will kill you at around 80% with a Bair. If Falco didn't have the late hit and the active frames were 4-6, it would be even stronger if Falco could act at frame 28 instead of frame 38, it would be one spam-happy pheasant leg of doom.

Bair
Frame  4- 5:    13%         0b/130g (KO@ 117%) 361°
Frame  6-11:     7%        30b/100g (KO@ 228%) 361°
Max Damage:    13%

Killing at around 152% is good for Sheik when she kills sometimes even later at center stage. Killing at say, 128% is fantastic for Sheik. Sheik's early kill tools are sweet-spotted Up Smash which is difficult to do without a good read, Side Smash which is slow for her - relative of course -, Bouncing Fish, Vanish, and Uair. Of those 5 moves, 3 of them, Up Smash, Side Smash, and Vanish need reads while Bouncing Fish and Uair are more easy to connect. That's only 2 reliable kill moves, 3 read kill moves, and a total of 5 kill moves that are safe. Down Smash, Burst Grenade, and even Dair would be great kill moves if they killed earlier, were more reliable, or safe. Then you have later kill moves like Nair, Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, dash attack, jab, throws, etc., and after patch 1.0.6., Bair. Sheik killing at around 150% is not uncommon, but optimal Sheik players can kill at 130% which is good and having Bair be another option to kill and stage spike at around 130% is icing on the cake.

Sheik's saving graces are her low end lag, low landing lag, fast attacks, kill setups, mobility, fantastic projectile, and really good recovery. All of that leads into a monster combo character who kind of chips you down and done reliably, there's nothing you can do against her as she's safe; she picks her moments and engages and disengages when it's appropriate. Another kill move at 152% isn't that insane on her when she doesn't have a lot of early, reliable kill moves. Look, if she had her current frame data, but hit like Ganondorf, that would be broken, but she doesn't. She is the weakest character and making her even weaker isn't ideal. She's also a volatile character where one wrong patch and she could drop like a rock or go beyond top tier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Being unable to steer Down-B or use Neutral-B to set up for KO opportunities does a decent number on her ability to KO, and B-Air is still not as powerful as it was. I think it's warranted to round her out a little more, considering she's losing a considerable amount.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Uh... What? Did you mean spikes make up a minority of the kills or Sheik... or Ike? Now I feel like Spike from Tom & Jerry is somehow in the game... Well, there's Duck Hunt Dog so... yeah...

There are three player archetypes: Timmy, Johnny, and Spike.

Timmy likes big, simple hits. In Smash he'd probably use Ganondorf or someone like that.

Johnny likes creative options. He'd probably enjoy Rosalina or Shulk.

Spike wants to maximize his performance. He likes characters like Fox where he can string a lot of hits together and squeeze out as much damage as possible.

 

[Luco]

Got absolutely bodied by a Dedede player at a tourney this weekend, and I can't help but agree with this.

Gordos make for great stage control tools, his throws set up for follow-up combos, his n-air and b-air make approaching difficult and he can just outright cancel a grounded approach with neutral-b. Approaching in the air can be just as difficult for certain characters (be strong for me, my dear departed Pit), with disjoints and favourable trades for days, while his weight and recovery make him very difficult to gimp.

Yeah, he's combo food if you can get into his space, but I find that a tall task in itself. He's definitely not Brawldede, though I think he's got potential with a different style entirely.

The thing about Dedede is if you don't know what to do against him you'll get majorly screwed. My first time playing against a competent DDD in tournament and I was like "yeah this penguin's all set." One tournament later and I almost 3-stocked the next competent DDD player I ran into. Neutral itself can be strange if you play too aggressively, but once you do get in you need to take advantage of everything Dedede can't do to you in disadvantage. Do it well enough and you'll realise why Smoothie gets depressed about D3's long-term viability.

 

[Speed Boost]

There are three player archetypes: Timmy, Johnny, and Spike.

Timmy likes big, simple hits. In Smash he'd probably use Ganondorf or someone like that.

Johnny likes creative options. He'd probably enjoy Rosalina or Shulk.

Spike wants to maximize his performance. He likes characters like Fox where he can string a lot of hits together and squeeze out as much damage as possible.

Iots of Timmys on FG

 

[Thinkaman]

Timmy plays the game for an emotional experience. He's going to play whatever character he likes and makes him feel good. In Smash, this could be any of them.

Johnny plays the game for a cognitive experience. He's going to play whatever character he feels most unique and clever with--which again, in Smash could honestly be any of them.

Spike plays the game to compete and prove himself. He's going to play whichever character he is provably best at, which is much more likely to be a top tier.

Everyone in this topic is predominantly a Johnny-Spike mix.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Timmy plays the game for an emotional experience. He's going to play whatever character he likes and makes him feel good. In Smash, this could be any of them.

Johnny plays the game for a cognitive experience. He's going to play whatever character he feels most unique and clever with--which again, in Smash could honestly be any of them.

Spike plays the game to compete and prove himself. He's going to play whichever character he is provably best at, which is much more likely to be a top tier.

Everyone in this topic is predominantly a Johnny-Spike mix.

Better put than my own post, for sure.

I'm mostly a Johnny, I think.

 

[Luigi player]

...who was talking about grab range? I was more talking about the slow pummel, useless Uthrow, slightly less than useless Fthrow, "killing" Bthrow, and Dthrow, which only combos into Uair if the opponent does nothing or airdodges. And "decent to good" grab range on Robin wouldn't be anywhere near broken, since Robin's one of the slowest characters in the game and has very few combos off of his throws.

Well, you were answering a post about Robin which said if she'd run as fast as Sheik she would be broken... and you said that she'd still have a terrible grab.
But Robins dashgrab range is good. And with a fast running speed that really goes places. Even if the "only" reward is getting these ~9 % from the throw and gaining positional advantage. Good runspeed + grabrange is amazing. Just look at Greninja and Captain Falcon.
I looked through the endlag of grabs and was really shocked to see Robin with such terrible framedata... guess you need to hit with these grabs.

Here's the list with grablags I compiled (not all characters) if you're interested:

Spoiler: grab endlag (if missed)

char: standing , dash , pivot
___

Mii Sword: 25, 31, 29
Mii Gunner: 25, 33, 30
Mii Brawler: 26, 32, 30
Jiggs: 26, 32, 31
Sheik, Pikachu: 27, 34, 32
Kirby: 27, 38, 32
Luigi, [Dr.]Mario, Fox, Lucario, Duck Hunt: 28, 35, 33 (+ Diddy prepatch)
WiiFitTr: 28, 37, 33
[D]Pit, Wario, G&W, Marth, Lucina, Shulk, Roy, Ryu: 29, 36, 34
Greninja: 29, 39, 35
Megaman: 30, 37, 35
Rob, Cp.Falcon, Sonic: 30, 37, 36
DK: 30, 38, 36
Diddy: 31, 38, 36
Peach, MK, Falco: 31, 39, 37
Ike, Little Mac: 32, 40, 38
Palutena, Charizard: 33, 41, 39
Ness: 34, 42, 40
Mewtwo: 35, 42, 40
Rosalina: 35, 42, 41
Bowser Jr, Ganondorf, Dedede: 35, 44, 41
Zelda: 37, 46, 44
Bowser: 38, 47, 45
Robin: 39, 49, 46
Olimar: 49, 52, 35

Yoshi: 55, 67, 64
Villager: 55, 69, 65
Lucas: 55, 65, 65
Link: 61, 65, 66
Toon Link: 61, 71, 71
ZSS: 68, 71, 79
Samus: 75, 73, 89
Pacman: 75, 75, 75

Edit: Fix'd Luigi framedata
Edit2: actually, there seem to be more errors. I have to blame Kurogamehammer there since most of the data is from there :X
Edit3: fixed all frames + added all characters

 

[Thinkaman]

Better put than my own post, for sure.

It's just that a piece of game content as complex as an entire Smash Bros. character (which you have to appreciate is huge, comprised of hundreds of subactions) is generally going to try and appeal to all three psychographic profiles in some way.

Like Shulk at first glance is this super complicated and nuanced character just made for Johnny, but "I LIKE TO USE MONADO BUSTER AND SHULK-SMASH PEOPLE FOR A GAZILLION DAMAGE!" is like the most Timmy thing imaginable.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Why is it that FG is filled with what would be considered low-mid tier characters? You would think you would see a lot of Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, etc.
Instead I see a ton of Link, Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ganon, and Ike. Not that these characters are bad, but I would think it would be the other way around.

I see pretty much nothing but Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Ness, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, Luigi... A fellow actual Samus main is incredibly rare, like wii-fit and palutena rare. Ike since his "upgrade" is much more common.
It's probably simply servers, matchmaking and people attempting counter-picks.
I know when I rise to about 90% win ratio in my last 50 the game sends me the dead-ringer crazy strong players. That's like clockwork precise.

 

[Yeagerzard]

is falling in the tier list, from B- to C+ people are starting to see that Mewtwo isn't really as good as we hyped him up to be. I guess the reasons why are that he is a floaty character with a big hotbox which makes him Combo Food and he can be KOed very easily especially by characters like or . Still like that people are agreeing on Charizard being moved up the tier list due to his buffs, I'm really happy about that. Charizard is a character that has potential and can be executed if someone plays him the right way and soon he could become viable some day. It might sounded biased since i main Charizard, but with the changing meta we might soon see more Zards in tournaments in the future years and I wanna see that happen. #Lizards4Life

I love playing as in any Smash game that allows him like Brawl or PM. I love so much!!!!