Character Competitive Impressions

[falln]

Dabuz vs. Ito
Right out of pools, the #3 seed projects to play Imperial's recent acquisition. Rosalina and Meta Knight seem like they'd both murder each other in unique ways, although I don't know enough about either character to say if one is heavily favored overall. I don't think this has ever been played at such a high level before, so it's something to watch for sure, especially since an upset of this caliber would turn the bracket on its head.]

Ito is registered twice but to my knowledge he isn't participating as imp | ito (his sponsor registered him then ceased to exist so he registered himself). He plays tyrant first round of second pools which will be interesting in its own right but I dont think he is anywhere near dabuz. It's a shame too because I play with ito quite frequently and MK is rosalina's worst matchup, so it really would be hype to have him meet dabuz in bracket

 

[Vipermoon]

Captain Falcon. No remorse, though I think I was kind, all things considered. He still keeps a number of disjoints.

http://pastebin.com/NKfj8Uy8

Spoiler

Captain Falcon:

Jab1: Active frames reduced from 3 to 1.
(Falcon is tied for the fastest recurring "hold A to loop Jab1" with great follow-ups whether you finish it or not, so this is meant to curb its ability to create a wall of hitboxes. Compare to Little Mac, whose Jab1 also loops every six frames but is only active for 1 frame. Prevents "hold A" from being a Ledge Climb punish for Falcon and generally makes this poke more reasonable. Still among the best Jabs in the game.)

Jab2: Active frames reduced from 3 to 2.
(An outlier in terms of active frames for a Jab, homogenized to make it less imposing.)

Forward-Smash: Range reduced to match the elbow more closely.
(Increases the need for precision while making it less safe when well-spaced. The backward lean and ability to do from an initial dash make it plenty useful without the disjoint.)

Back-Aerial: Autocancel window decreased from 19-36 to 27-36.
(Adds more commitment to B-Air so that Falcon can't retreat with it near the apex of his shorthop with relative impunity against slower characters. It's still a great poke with only 12 frames of landing lag when not autocanceled.)

Dash Grab: Reduce distance covered by half.
(Makes the "dead zone" where you pass through opponents smaller in exchange for toning down Falcon's burst range. This is needed to allow slow character to establish a reasonable spacing game without constantly being threatened by Falcon's Dash Grab.)

Up-Special: Damage reduced from 17% to 14%.
(Reduces his reward on a move with significant disjoint. Knockback is not compensated; it will KO at later percents as a result. Prevents Falcon from being able to KO edgeguarding opponents so easily.)

Down-Special: Aerial landing hitbox only hits grounded opponents.
(Prevents situations where using an aerial Down-B on grounded opponents would get both hits and deal 20-24%.)

Yes, I know this is hypothetical:

This makes Falcon really bad. He would be the most nerfed character in the game so far if he didn't have this stuff. None of this stuff broke the game. Now holding A is useless, Fsmash went from a decent Fsmash to a under-average one, Dash Grab nerf is crazy. Half!? He was known for that dash grab. He is now less unique as a character. A dash grab nerf like this probably makes Dthrow to Knee no longer work which is unacceptable. You needed that burst of speed to pull of the combo. Not like it worked much even then. 14? So he can't kill off-stage as early. Uncalled for. He was already free off-stage for the gimping.

I think of Brawl when I think of a Falcon like this.

 

[David Viran]

40 before hit?
Nah.

Ok last thing. The spike itself from the ledge kills falcon between 15 and 20% without him being able to act. Ganon's dair kills falcon in the same conditions like 5% earlier.

 

[Djent]

Ito is registered twice but to my knowledge he isn't participating as imp | ito (his sponsor registered him then ceased to exist so he registered himself). He plays tyrant first round of second pools which will be interesting in its own right but I dont think he is anywhere near dabuz. It's a shame too because I play with ito quite frequently and MK is rosalina's worst matchup, so it really would be hype to have him meet dabuz in bracket

Okay I'll update my predictions accordingly.

 

[Nabbitnator]

But flip kick does.

When did flip kick kill earlier then helicopter?

 

[Macedonian]

If you spike a charachter with bad recovery, come on any spike will do that and most the cast has one. Are you really claiming that flip kick is as powerful as helicopter?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, I know this is hypothetical:

This makes Falcon really bad. He would be the most nerfed character in the game so far if he didn't have this stuff. None of this stuff broke the game. Now holding A is useless, Fsmash went from a decent Fsmash to a under-average one, Dash Grab nerf is crazy. Half!? He was known for that dash grab. He is now less unique as a character. A dash grab nerf like this probably makes Dthrow to Knee no longer work which is unacceptable. You didn't that burst of speed to pull of the combo. Not like it worked much even then. 14? So he can't kill off-stage as early. Uncalled for. He was already free off-stage for the gimping.

I think of Brawl when I think of a Falcon like this.

You are blowing the changes way out of proportion. Mac and Mario still get great mileage out of holding A for pressure, and neither of them have the mix-ups for stopping halfway that Falcon does.

F-Smash leans back and is a great punish tool, which is actively good considering how much freedom he has with his dash distances, which very few Falcons make use of.

I think his Dash Grab is easily one of the biggest problems in the game; combined with his incredible mobility and how you cannot react to it, it makes Falcon the Melee Sheik of this game. Nerfing the Dash Grab has no effect on his initial dash, so I don't understand how this would hurt his throw combos in any way.

Jab1 -> Jab2 -> Up-B is totally a reasonable thing. Ganondorf does the same thing but charges the opponent with electricity first and only does 11%. Something's got to give. Falcon is overloaded with silliness.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Captain Falcon. No remorse, though I think I was kind, all things considered. He still keeps a number of disjoints.

http://pastebin.com/NKfj8Uy8

Spoiler

Captain Falcon:

Jab1: Active frames reduced from 3 to 1.
(Falcon is tied for the fastest recurring "hold A to loop Jab1" with great follow-ups whether you finish it or not, so this is meant to curb its ability to create a wall of hitboxes. Compare to Little Mac, whose Jab1 also loops every six frames but is only active for 1 frame. Prevents "hold A" from being a Ledge Climb punish for Falcon and generally makes this poke more reasonable. Still among the best Jabs in the game.)

Jab2: Active frames reduced from 3 to 2.
(An outlier in terms of active frames for a Jab, homogenized to make it less imposing.)

Forward-Smash: Range reduced to match the elbow more closely.
(Increases the need for precision while making it less safe when well-spaced. The backward lean and ability to do from an initial dash make it plenty useful without the disjoint.)

Back-Aerial: Autocancel window decreased from 19-36 to 27-36.
(Adds more commitment to B-Air so that Falcon can't retreat with it near the apex of his shorthop with relative impunity against slower characters. It's still a great poke with only 12 frames of landing lag when not autocanceled.)

Dash Grab: Reduce distance covered by half.
(Makes the "dead zone" where you pass through opponents smaller in exchange for toning down Falcon's burst range. This is needed to allow slow character to establish a reasonable spacing game without constantly being threatened by Falcon's Dash Grab.)

Up-Special: Damage reduced from 17% to 14%.
(Reduces his reward on a move with significant disjoint. Knockback is not compensated; it will KO at later percents as a result. Prevents Falcon from being able to KO edgeguarding opponents so easily.)

Down-Special: Aerial landing hitbox only hits grounded opponents.
(Prevents situations where using an aerial Down-B on grounded opponents would get both hits and deal 20-24%.)

Reducing Fsmash range? Sure, its kinda silly that it has more range than Ike's.

The Down Special bit? Sure.

That's... about all I agree with there really. Now, if you want to tackle a part of his jab, nerf the disjoint on the jab finisher. That thing is reaching Snake levels of disjoint. The other parts of his jab I feel are fine. I wouldn't touch anything else really outside of like, very very minor frame adjustments here and there. More minor than what you've got there (For example, maybe increase the landing lag of his Bair from 12 to 15. Let him do what he can already do now, just have there be more of a punish if he messes up.)

 

[David Viran]

When did flip kick kill earlier then helicopter?

I was saying it as more of a joke because it's another powerful kick but it's getting talked about too much. Forget I said it.

@ Macedonian To be fair he didn't say reliable.

 

[Illuminose]

sigh I figured that your garbage Sheik list was just one blunder @ TheReflexWonder but...

Nerfing Falcon? Falcon??? Falcon is a character with extremely noticeable, exploitable flaws. He has a linear and easy to gimp recovery, garbage disadvantaged state, and is easily comboed due to his physics as a character. His really good dash grab, damage output/disjoints, and explosive attacks make him a pretty well-balanced character all things considered. He's not even Top 10 and barely Top 15. Any and all nerfs to Falcon are unjustified. His dash grab isn't "like Melee Sheik". He can't get regrabs. He can get follow-ups off his grab and his dash grab is super fast but like...so what? Falcon is an absolutely fine character that is overloaded with no silliness to speak of.

Figure I'll just post about the Sheik stuff here again for a bit more exposure. Sheik does not need a lot of nerfs. She is not an absurd character that is super far from the rest of the cast in terms of dominance. She's by far the tamest best character Smash has ever had with a very noticeable flaw -- difficulty confirming kills. Do I think that Sheik deserves certain nerfs? I do, as her current design has some things that are perhaps a bit too good. There's no point in killing her as a character though. Yes, those nerfs kill her as a character, and moreover are mostly unjustified.

There's no point in nerfing Jab 2 at all. She has nothing guaranteed out of her double jab; setups out of her double jab really only work because it's kinda difficult to react to, and most players don't understand that they can actually get out of follow-ups in a lot of cases (some characters with bad frame data can't, but that's really neither here nor there because characters with bad frame data can't get out of a lot of things). Her multi jab is a pile of **** that can be DI'd out of and punished really easily. There's just...nothing offensive about jab. That's also not even really a nerf because the point of Jab 2 is to link out of Jab 1, and the point of her double jab is just that it's her fastest option at close range and can potentially set up certain things.

The fair nerf proposed is more along the lines of unreasonable nerfs. Forward air is literally Sheik's game. It's her spacing, her approach, and her punishes. Sheik as a character is not good if she can't space effectively with forward air. The current issue with forward air is not lag, but sheer range. Forward air beats pretty much everything because the disjoint is so big that it can be spaced really really easily. Slightly decreasing the range makes Sheik put in more effort to space with forward air, i.e. committing a bit more. With the given nerf, Sheik can't space with forward air on shield without landing with lag. That's over the top.

Needles are already unsafe on hit at close range at low-mid percents, in case you didn't know. What's needed is a nerf such that needles don't send opponents into tumble/pop them up as high until much higher percentages, which is the thing that's really problematic about needles as they stand (single needle juggling is a little stupid as needles send opponents into tumble at like 105ish%). Pretty sure this entails a decrease in kbg, not sure how much but I'm thinking that they shouldn't send opponents into tumble until around 135-140% or so. Maybe even like 150%. This is a reasonable nerf that fixes the issue with single needles at high percents.

I like the intangibility reduction idea with vanish. That's something which I think absolutely makes sense because it forces Sheik to recover more carefully and makes vanish a bit more realistic to challenge. I don't see the removal of her ability to autocancel it on-stage at certain angles as needed; she has limited angles to autocancel and therefore can be exploited in that regard, and there's really nothing wrong with the ability.

Nerfing bouncing fish is silly because there are no issues with the move. It's not an issue offensively, so why nerf active frames? It's not a broken escape option either. You can chase it/read it and punish it regardless. Seriously, if Sheik gets away with Down B every time, you're screwing up. This move needs no nerfs at all.

Another possible nerf that would work is slightly increasing the end lag on grounded needles (like by 5 frames or so) to make them a bit less crazy. Her needle zoning is already a little overrated. It's more her mixups and baits that she can do with needles that make them so good, which you can't really change without fundamental mechanical changes.

Basically, decrease fair's horizontal range a bit, decrease needles kbg such that they don't send opponents into tumble until higher percentages, decrease intangibility frames on vanish, and add like 5ish frames of extra lag to grounded needles so that they have a bit more commitment. Keep her bair like it is, don't buff it. There you have reasonable nerfs that make sense and don't murder a Sheik as a character while actually balancing her!

 

[Vipermoon]

You are blowing the changes way out of proportion. Mac and Mario still get great mileage out of holding A for pressure, and neither of them have the mix-ups for stopping halfway that Falcon does.

F-Smash leans back and is a great punish tool, which is actively good considering how much freedom he has with his dash distances, which very few Falcons make use of.

I think his Dash Grab is easily one of the biggest problems in the game; combined with his incredible mobility and how you cannot react to it, it makes Falcon the Melee Sheik of this game. Nerfing the Dash Grab has no effect on his initial dash, so I don't understand how this would hurt his throw combos in any way.

Jab1 -> Jab2 -> Up-B is totally a reasonable thing. Ganondorf does the same thing but charges the opponent with electricity first and only does 11%. Something's got to give. Falcon is overloaded with silliness.

Well Fsmash is frame 19, we have to keep that in mind. A slower moving dash grab should affect throw combos. I know he'd have the same dash but I don't think that matters since you need the dash grab for this, not a running start. Up B is more of a damage thing, it's not strong. Reduce the damage but increase KB values in response imo. Edit: Not even that, don't touch it. Have you seen how much damage ZSS, Roy, and Brawler's up Bs do?

I agree that Falcon is a very silly character but he is kept in check by his character design. I mean, we saw Brawl. He moveset from Brawl wasn't even buffed that hard. Mostly better hitboxes and more kill power. It was mainly the increased hitstun of Smash 4 and other things like no tripping that made the character much better. He gets destroyed by way too many characters to deserve these nerfs, even if they correct the silly things.

 

[Macedonian]

Well yeah, our scene is anti-customs because they're a hassle and result in less usable setups. Half of me hopes that EVO will show that customs are cool and make the game better, but half of me really doesn't care.

You going Zard or Wario at EVO?

Hassle is just one reason people dislike customs. It's a factor, but by no means the major factor.

For evo I'm just worried that we won't be able to resolve the issue of whether to have them on or not since There'sgood chance of top 8 will be a lot of default setups.

 

[san.]

For Quality of Life, Ike just needs a small lingering hitbox on dair and maybe even a landing hitbox. Also, 2 more damage on quick draw and a small tweak to aether's startup, recovery distance, and endlag for a minimalist change. I would also shift fair's hitbox down so it doesn't reach so absurdly high and hit a bit lower, since it's still awkard to use sometimes and its use as a juggle is too overpowering compared to nair.

If I want to make him good, I'd reduce nair frames by 2-3, uair by 1, and IASA on some moves or something.

sigh I figured that your garbage Sheik list was just one blunder @ TheReflexWonder but...

Nerfing Falcon? Falcon??? Falcon is a character with extremely noticeable, exploitable flaws. He has a linear and easy to gimp recovery, garbage disadvantaged state, and is easily comboed due to his physics as a character. His really good dash grab, damage output/disjoints, and explosive attacks make him a pretty well-balanced character all things considered. He's not even Top 10 and barely Top 15. Any and all nerfs to Falcon are unjustified. His dash grab isn't "like Melee Sheik". He can't get regrabs. He can get follow-ups off his grab and his dash grab is super fast but like...so what? Falcon is an absolutely fine character that is overloaded with no silliness to speak of.

Both sides are pretty understandable IMO. Falcon has some of the best survivability, but have traits of speedsters. He lacks the jump squats, poor jabs, and landing lag of the heavies while surviving just as long.

I agree with you, though, since I believe the problem is how Nintendo handles heavies. There's no reason to give them garbage jump squats, rolls, etc. without compensating. Worse jump squats -> better than average frame data on aerials for their range once they are actually in the air. Garbage rolls -> more distance (or nerf the distance of quick rolls), worse spot dodge -> better jabs, slower grabs -> more range (which this game FAILS to do with quite a few of them).

Overall, heavies should have closer frame data to quicker characters, but more range to make up for the intrinsic lag on their movements. Not as fast, but it should still be good relative to their range. Really fast characters that are medium weight and heavy weight like Falcon and Sonic should probably have their actual attacks be average (kind of like this already for Falcon's tilts for instance).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't think ally is going to do too well if he hasn't explored customs .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mobility is king in Smash, and unless you want to change characters like Jigglypuff and King Dedede to be significantly faster than they currently are (which would be great but TERRIBLE for game feel), toning down certain aspects of the more mobile characters or giving them significantly greater rewards on individuals hits would be necessary for them not to be hard countered easily, both of which would be a much bigger blow to aesthetics and balance outside of 1v1 situations.

Well Fsmash is frame 19, we have to keep that in mind. A slower moving dash grab should affect throw combos. I know he'd have the same dash but I don't think that matters since you need the dash grab for this, not a running start. Up B is more of a damage thing, it's not strong. Reduce the damage but increase KB values in response imo. Edit: Not even that, don't touch it. Have you seen how much damage ZSS, Roy, and Brawler's up Bs do?

I agree that Falcon is a very silly character but he is kept in check by his character design. I mean, we saw Brawl. He moveset from Brawl wasn't even buffed that hard. Mostly better hitboxes and more kill power. It was mainly the increased hitstun of Smash 4 and other things like no tripping that made the character much better. He gets destroyed by way too many characters to deserve these nerfs, even if they correct the silly things.

Actually, the majority of moves on Falcon are the same as they were in Brawl in terms of frame data and hitbox size; Brawl Falcon didn't work because everyone else had comparatively large amounts of reward on individual hits and really big hitboxes. Comparisons to other egregious moves don't mean much to me when they're likely candidates for being toned down, as well.

Over time, people will see that a Falcon abusing his mobility will invalidate loads of characters. He has trouble in matchups against some of the best characters, but that's because they do neutral better and often ignore disadvantaged states, things that should also be toned down. It's like the best dozen or so characters are playing a different game from the rest of the cast.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I think they sould give more characters options to defend themselves.

King Dedede is combo meat when any character gets close to him. I think he needs a new poke attack. Maybe Up Tilt.

Or Ganondorf have his Neutral Air to be more effective.

 

[Macedonian]

I don't think ally is going to do too well if he hasn't explored customs .

Ally won smash and splash a customs on tournament a few weeks ago with pure default mario, beat custom Gannon and mega man in GF . He knows how to fight against them. Just dosnt like using them from what I understand. (Pretty sure, I don't want to speak for the guy but it's what I have heard)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

King Dedede is combo meat when any character gets close to him. I think he needs a new poke attack. Maybe Up Tilt.

...no. Give D3 his old Brawl utilt back and he's got a decent anti-air/launcher again, not a poke. His ftilt is fine for poking save that, like everything else he has, it comes out slow and recovers for a million years.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nysyr]

I'm actually really excited to see how Ito does at an event this large.



I mean, I don't want to argue anymore in this thread, but Helicopter Kick...

Hi, I'm a Lucario main, and your Up-B rustles my ****ing jimmies.

-Signed,

Dead off the top at 45


Also since were talking about frame data,

Why does a character who thrives off surviving tie/come 2nd for MOST vulnerability frames for all his defensive options? Thank god Ryu's air dodge sucks so Lucario doesn't take last in 2/3 categories now.

 

[Smog Frog]

would be busted if hey copypasted his old brawl bair into the game

 

[Smooth Criminal]

would be busted if hey copypasted his old brawl bair into the game

If the rest of his kit remains the same? No. Not even in the slightest. You got a lot of characters in this game with aerials and normals that make D3's Brawl bair seem tame.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

It would definitely help him significantly to have a sub-10 frame bogus huge range aerial.
His off stage gimping would be unassailable.
He'd have a fast fall option that didn't rely on your opponent getting baited by a jump to engage / not being a reactive player.
He could shield poke with it as it's a line strike, which while he's floating around with jumps above shields would help him out a lot.
Oh yeah, and he could reactively bair a lot more things to come out ahead; shield drops, spot dodges, jumps.
He can turn around in his jumps and right now that allows him to alternate between an overhead and underneath animation swings; he would take advantage of this better with his old back air and being able to use fair for people above him and turning around in a jump for bairing fast falls/etc

Stuff like this is by no means a small change unless it's in a vacuum. But in Bair's case, even in a vacuum the differences would be mighty noticeable imo.
It could very well be at a similar strength as Falcon's back air or even with better range.

There isn't many characters out there who wouldn't be willing to trade their bair for something like Falcon's. Any character having a move of theirs replaced by something with half the start up would be a significant change.

 

[Radical Larry]

So I've been playing Link against some very amazing and decent players, and um...okay, I can't explain how I was able to string up to 90% damage with him. It just boggled my mind that he could string that much damage in a short combo.

In other news, Warlock Punch is not actually hard to land on an opponent...at least for me. This morning alone I landed enough Punches to start a compilation of sorts. And even against Marth, Ike, Ryu, Villager, Ness, and characters that would normally shut Ganondorf down. Bad spacing on opponent's part? Or just lucky timing?

But my little story aside, I got a question:
Does anyone know WHY Ganondorf has longer range after jumping with Warlock Punch? Like, go on FG and you'll see your clone; use your regular punch and you won't hit the clone. But jump and punch, it seems to have an extra hitbox. Anyone explain?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Shaya

I guess I see your point. Still, you might as well revert D3 back to the way he was in Brawl sans CGs if we were going to make him super effective. Waddles and all.

I'll admit though, Brawl bair would be nice.

Smooth Criminal

 

[hypersonicJD]

Any more match-up suggestions? Maybe vs ? I actually don't know what more I can get in here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Roy tries to grab Marth. Marth stabs him in the face. Roy gets knocked off stage and tries to recover. Marth counters Blazer until death.

GG Roy

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Hassle is just one reason people dislike customs. It's a factor, but by no means the major factor.

For evo I'm just worried that we won't be able to resolve the issue of whether to have them on or not since There'sgood chance of top 8 will be a lot of default setups.

Dude I've asked the TO. It is the major factor >.>

 

[Firefoxx]

Those changes seem pretty fair tbh. The bair change would probably hurt, but everything else would just require playing smarter.

Even just following the animation, f-smash still has pretty damn good range.

jab is dumb now and holding a shouldn't beat everything

Dash grab nerf just makes converting every grab into big damage more valuable, and makes mastering ff u-air spacing actually matter.

Dive's damage is ****ing super lulzy but it also doesn't kill like a 17% move should. As long as its still a command grab that gets edge-guarders away from him, it can take all the damage nerfs in the world

Kick seems like a weird bug, and you shouldn't use aerial kick unless your opponent commits to something first

Edit: Oh and just to highlight how much of a problem Falcon's dash grab currently is, timed correctly it can beat Falcon holding A.

 

[Smog Frog]

i'd fix the hitbox on dive. its basically like a sword in front of him but it doesnt cover above him. i'd make the forward range less stupid and give it an above hitbox.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Are we back on the topic of nerfing Falcon? You guys are joking, right?

 

[DanGR]

Mobility is king in Smash, and unless you want to change characters like Jigglypuff and King Dedede to be significantly faster than they currently are (which would be great but TERRIBLE for game feel), toning down certain aspects of the more mobile characters or giving them significantly greater rewards on individuals hits would be necessary for them not to be hard countered easily, both of which would be a much bigger blow to aesthetics and balance outside of 1v1 situations.

Actually, the majority of moves on Falcon are the same as they were in Brawl in terms of frame data and hitbox size; Brawl Falcon didn't work because everyone else had comparatively large amounts of reward on individual hits and really big hitboxes. Comparisons to other egregious moves don't mean much to me when they're likely candidates for being toned down, as well.

Over time, people will see that a Falcon abusing his mobility will invalidate loads of characters. He has trouble in matchups against some of the best characters, but that's because they do neutral better and often ignore disadvantaged states, things that should also be toned down. It's like the best dozen or so characters are playing a different game from the rest of the cast.

I'm interested in seeing more of this kind of overarching info in your character analyses. This moreso than what makes individual moves strong options. I think you'll have a stronger argument if you pulled back from explaining the individual stuff a bit, elaborated on the characters' overall design and how it should work, and brought that back into why these specific changes accomplish your goal. For example, we know that Falcon can make a hitbox wall with jab. Why nerf that, specifically, over nerfing the damage of something else? Invalidating a large subset of characters is a very convincing reason to nerf/change something- one reason I like your dash grab change.

Hassle is just one reason people dislike customs.

Funny you say this, because a custom legal tournament series in my area is called HASL. So for me, HASL is a big reason why I enjoy customs.

 

[Firefoxx]

Are we back on the topic of nerfing Falcon? You guys are joking, right?

In terms of raw tournament wins, Falcon is top 5 character in the game. He's also incredibly easy to use and get results with.

 

[Macedonian]

Dude I've asked the TO. It is the major factor >.>

For TOs it's the major factor yes,it'sa logistical nightmare and agree. But I think we have a slight misunderstanding, I mean to say from the players perspective it seems like people dislike them for the way they play and how they impact the game over the logistics.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth wins, slightly.

Roy has generally better frame data and does much higher damage. Roy also has Marth severely beat in mobility specs (run speed, fall speed, and most importantly air speed). He definitely has the ability to easily beat a Marth with a few reads. But the same applies on Roy vs. any character.

But Marth has more things:

Better aerials: Fair comes out way earlier. Bair hits below and above (Roy's only in front). Marth has a more useful Dair, though they both suck. I'd rather have Roy's Nair. Angle is higher for follow-ups and it does crazy damage. It does have less range though. Uair, obviously Marth wins here despite Roy's Uair having way more active frames (makes Roy's better for reverse falling/landing Uair combos). Most of all, Marth is floatier so he can spend more time in the air. This makes his mostly identical AC windows actually better than Roy's for that reason. Roy does have much better IASA on his aerials but really it doesn't matter that much because of his fall speed.

Range: Marth's Fsmash hits high and low, Roy's is only in front. Marth's Usmash has way more range. Dsmash, more range, though still worse than Roy's due to damage and IASA. Utilt, Ftilt, and Jab. Neutral B. These ones severely outrange Roy's.

Off-stage: A smart Roy will never ever challenge Marth off-stage. A smart Marth will always challenge Roy off-stage. This is a big deal.

Throws: Due to KB (not end lag), Roy's throw follow-ups last longer. However, you DI forward with Roy because both his combo throws have forward KB. Marth's at least have some DI mind games involved with how Fair is forward and Dair is backward KB. Roy does have a useless Bthrow though, while Marth's is very good at getting someone off-stage. Marth's Uthrow has a better angle than Roy's and slightly better KB. Roy's throw do more damage in general, however.

Side B: Marth's DB does consistently 1% more damage per hit. This makes Roy's still consistent above 100% but due to this and how it affects kill power this benefits Marth for sure.

55-60 Marth wins. These are some of the things I thought about.

 

[C0rvus]

Falcon's dash grab makes gives me PTSD, but I see no real reason to nerf him aside from that when we've got Sheik running around invalidating 80% of the roster.

 

[outfoxd]

Falcon's dash grab makes gives me PTSD, but I see no real reason to nerf him aside from that when we've got Sheik running around invalidating 80% of the roster.

Speaking of Sheik making someone feel invalid, dont pick up DHD until you're sure you can handle the heartbreak of playing a good one. Needles ruin your can, kill gunmen and bust the disc, and short of kamikaze cans you're ill equipped to get out of strings.

One of those sobering, "well, why does my character exist?" moments im sure lots of people have to deal with where someone does everything better than you, feels like.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ally won smash and splash a customs on tournament a few weeks ago with pure default mario, beat custom Gannon and mega man in GF . He knows how to fight against them. Just dosnt like using them from what I understand. (Pretty sure, I don't want to speak for the guy but it's what I have heard)

Is beating a custom ganon supposed to be a significant accomplishment? No disrespect to the ganon but when I think busted customs ganon doesn't come to mind. Custom Rosa Custom pikachu custom sheik sonic diddy. Ally maybe ready for customs but if you're not prepared for them you're in trouble.

 

[Djent]

Updated EVO predictions (Ito edition):

Spoiler

1) ZeRo
2) ESAM
3) Rain
4) Dabuz
5) Nairo
5) Larry Lurr
7) Mr-R
7) Nietono
=====Finals Cutoff=====
9) MVD
9) Ally
9) NickRiddle
9) Shaky
13) Dapuffster
13) Aerolink
13) FOW
13) 8bitman
17) Salem
17) DKWill
17) K9sbruce
17) Mr. ConCon
17) Ito
17) True Blue
17) Abadango
17) False
25) Nyanko
25) StaticManny
25) Phuzix
25) Denti
25) Tyrant
25) 6WX
25) Falln
25) John Numbers

I'm actually more excited now for the probable clash and the increased likelihood of seeing some in Semis.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I've been thinking of how customs could end up after evo. And I've come up with 2 solutions we could either ban the use of customs after evo entirely or we could have certain customs be banned. Which ever customs are banned is for T.O's to decide. I feel like banning certain customs possibly be the better of the two choices especially since certain character's like and become way better then their default counterparts and need customs if they're ever gonna see some use in tourneys(not saying they do see alot of use with customs though). When it comes to customs there's either useless customs or ridiculous customs *cough* dongnado. I feel like banning certain customs could possibly make the custom meta more balanced but that's just me.

As for @ TheReflexWonder change analysis

I generally agree with falcon's jab

Falcon does not need a jab that can beat almost everything in the game i mean WTF

I also made a change analsysis because let's face it guys mewtwo needs some serisous buffs. However I didn't make them ridiculous like having SHL's or Double fair, or make smash 4 mewtwo into . but at the same time their buffs that can help smash 4 mewtwo in the smash 4 meta.

Spoiler

Mewtwo:

Weight: Change weight from 72 to 85
(With a weight of 72 mewtwo is currently the second lightest character in smash 4 and that's just terrible considering how tall he is.I think changing mewtwo's weight back to his melee weight being 85 would be good enough so at least he doesn't die really early compared to most of the cast.)

Down throw: Give it less landing lag and make it pop up the opponent so mewtwo can be able to combo off of his down throw
(Mewtwo having a combo throw is like a must especially when considering that he had a really good grab game in melee and having a combo throw in smash 4 can often be a deciding point to either being viable or unviable.)

I feel like these two changes are more then enough to help mewtwo

But what do you you guys think?

 

[⑨ball]

Speaking of Sheik making someone feel invalid, dont pick up DHD until you're sure you can handle the heartbreak of playing a good one. Needles ruin your can, kill gunmen and bust the disc, and short of kamikaze cans you're ill equipped to get out of strings.

One of those sobering, "well, why does my character exist?" moments im sure lots of people have to deal with where someone does everything better than you, feels like.

Sheik's needles more than any other proposed changes, need a weight value so that their range is decreased. While Reflex's idea of changing what are essentially lasers with kb growth to actually reflect such is understandable and could work to make them less polarizing, I'd much rather have her retain things like needles>bouncing fish while not being able to compete with characters from 2/3rd's of the stage away with the frame data they have (iirc f5 single needle, f11 full charge).