Character Competitive Impressions

[Dabuz]

(-3) - Fair, nuff said

(-2) - Dash attack doesn't let him land, jab clanks with or beats all his grounded moves and stops pikmin throw, able to play footsies and dash grab anything Olimar whiffs with ease. Not unwinnable but certainly bad

(0/+1) - Pretty even actually, maybe even Oli's favor. Olimar fsmash is great in this MU but but killing is an issue for Oli and a well spaced and timed fireball stops Oli's fsmash and lets him run in for a dash grab.

(-1) - Slight disadvantage, pivot grab and jab keep him out well, just that when Mario puts Oli in the air, it's really hard for Oli to establish himself again.

(-2) - Even until kill%s where sonic can avoid or flat out contest Oli's kill options for days and Olimar can die from one slip up or just getting read once at 100%. Also very hard for Oli to land.

(-2) - Quick Attack > All of oli's moves except perfectly spaced and timed tilts, jab, and nair, Olimar can't really punish Pikachu's pressure game well either. And of course landing is an issue.

(+1) - Oli's favor (Diddy has trouble killing or approaching Oli)

(+1) - Oli's favor (Too easy to kill Luma and Rosa isn't fast enough and doesn't have safe pressure)

- Not enough experience here.

(-2) Think Falcon but add in nair crossups, jab -> anything, and the potential to die at 90 from upsmash.

(-2) TBH not much experience but his Sword is really annoying and Oli in the air is basically without options, MK's ground speed lets him get his openings super easily.

(+1) Yoshi has a lot of trouble hitting Oli and he's forced to approach, hard for Oli to kill but that's status quo for him.

(+1) Keeps Ness out really well and only really has to worry about random dash attacks which beats basically all of Oli's moves.

(+2) Pikmin toss legit beats half of Villager's moveset, fsmash and pivot grab doesn't let him get close enough for the other half.

Any other important MUs I missed? (All customs off keep in mind)

@Gheb_01 Referring to that specific MU

 

[Asdioh]

Pikmin have item priority so they lose to regular attacks unless you have a pikmin on you. If a pikmin is on you olimar's pikmin attacks always win if you challenge them.

It's July 2015 and I just learned this!

To add to the Olimar discussion, Dabuz himself told me during the friendlies we played online that Olimar in the air is pretty underwhelming. So his weakness is basically being taken off the ground, once he's in the air he becomes a lot less irritating and he doesn't have nearly as much range in the air as he does on the ground.

It's a bit like fighting Little Mac but harder, once Olimar is in the air he's a lot weaker.

Is it kind of like Villager's turnip aerials, in that you can shield and punish them... except you can just straight up beat them with attacks (unless you have a pikmin on you, apparently?)

With Kirby I don't have to worry much about Pikmin being latched onto me, I believe Nair gets them all off (unless it's stale) so that takes care of it easily. The matchup is definitely hard though, until you get his power, then you have a ridiculously OP projectile.

 

[Dabuz]

Also, having a pikmin on you doesn't actually make Oli's attacks win, it's just that depending on the attack used, it might hit the latched pikmin first causing your attack to come out SIGNIFICANTLY slower (thanks hitstun).

 

[PUK]

(-2) - Dash attack doesn't let him land, jab clanks with or beats all his grounded moves and stops pikmin throw, able to play footsies and dash grab anything Olimar whiffs with ease. Not unwinnable but certainly bad

Can't downB help with SA?
Edit: Nevermind it's just a solution to one of the many problem
Still i saw fights between falcon and olimar and olimar was winning most of the time

 

[FullMoon]

(-3) - Fair, nuff said

(-2) - Dash attack doesn't let him land, jab clanks with or beats all his grounded moves and stops pikmin throw, able to play footsies and dash grab anything Olimar whiffs with ease. Not unwinnable but certainly bad

(0/+1) - Pretty even actually, maybe even Oli's favor. Olimar fsmash is great in this MU but but killing is an issue for Oli and a well spaced and timed fireball stops Oli's fsmash and lets him run in for a dash grab.

(-1) - Slight disadvantage, pivot grab and jab keep him out well, just that when Mario puts Oli in the air, it's really hard for Oli to establish himself again.

(-2) - Even until kill%s where sonic can avoid or flat out contest Oli's kill options for days and Olimar can die from one slip up or just getting read once at 100%. Also very hard for Oli to land.

(-2) - Quick Attack > All of oli's moves except perfectly spaced and timed tilts, jab, and nair, Olimar can't really punish Pikachu's pressure game well either. And of course landing is an issue.

(+1) - Oli's favor (Diddy has trouble killing or approaching Oli)

(+1) - Oli's favor (Too easy to kill Luma and Rosa isn't fast enough and doesn't have safe pressure)

- Not enough experience here.

(-2) Think Falcon but add in nair crossups, jab -> anything, and the potential to die at 90 from upsmash.

(-2) TBH not much experience but his Sword is really annoying and Oli in the air is basically without options, MK's ground speed lets him get his openings super easily.

(+1) Yoshi has a lot of trouble hitting Oli and he's forced to approach, hard for Oli to kill but that's status quo for him.

(+1) Keeps Ness out really well and only really has to worry about random dash attacks which beats basically all of Oli's moves.

(+2) Pikmin toss legit beats half of Villager's moveset, fsmash and pivot grab doesn't let him get close enough for the other half.

Any other important MUs I missed? (All customs off keep in mind)

@Gheb_01 Referring to that specific MU

What do you think of Olimar vs Greninja? I see it as even but I was wondering about your thoughts on it.

I'm guessing you probably don't have much experience with the MU though, seeing as Greninja is kinda rare.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I Think greninja wins againts Olimar. Because he can pressure him with Water Shurikens and Greninja makes a better damage and has a better neutral game.

 

[busken]

The buff on Greninja's f-tilt seems to be a good tool in this MU as it provides a tool to keep Pikmin away reliably. Since Olimar's recovery lacks a hitbox and is not very fast I see d-air and hydro pump strong tools for edge guarding.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I can't remember if I posted this a while back, but I forgot to put it on public on my channel. I thought it was kind of neat.

 

[busken]

I can't remember if I posted this a while back, but I forgot to put it on public on my channel. I thought it was kind of neat.

I can only see this being useful for Little Mac as he is amoung the only characters that gains forward momentum and can capitalize of the shield pushback, via jolt haymaker. In theory, I can see this working well with Kirby in tandem with hammer.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I can only see this being useful for Little Mac as he is amoung the only characters that gains forward momentum and can capitalize of the shield pushback, via jolt haymaker. In theory, I can see this working well with Kirby in tandem with hammer.

I think it's less about forward momentum and more about the raw damage output. I could only get this to happen with attacks that deal something like 23+%, which requires some charging and/or for your character to be named Ganondorf.

 

[⑨ball]

- these two are probably pretty close to even. Both are challenging matchups in their own way.

Could you elaborate?

Any other important MUs I missed? (All customs off keep in mind)

I wouldn't go so far as to call it important due to him not being popular, but how does Olimar fair against ?
I'd expect well enough, but you never know.

@ Asdioh your input is welcome as well.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I have to agree that ROB's definitely not one of our worst. He's not great, and definitely a pick I'd respect in tournament, but I think A2's right in that which it's just a quirk of Kalm's playstyle. His playstyle gets him all-or-nothing results. If you remember his last tournament where it was strictly low/mid-tiers, Lob mentioned in light of what happened that Robin might be one of Ganon's worst MUs, when Kalm himself said it was dead-even, and only a matter of performance.

I also agree about Villager being totally winnable. Though, I still think he's definitely one of our worst, I'd take a Villager over Sheik or Rosa any day. I do wanna comment though that while GanonTB did marvelously in that match, and the Villager was good too, but imo, Villager can be a bit dirtier than was shown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt1CCQwjI4k - this set of Gungnir vs. Ranai's a good example of what makes it such a tough MU in some cases. Not that it's not tough in all cases, but should the Villager be so inclined to safe playing like Ranai... yeah.

All the same, totally agreed on all points.

Kalm is the Bizzarro Flame of Smash 4. The game he plays is different from the one most of us play. He often wins before the game is even over, and the results screen is meaningless.

I think it's less about forward momentum and more about the raw damage output. I could only get this to happen with attacks that deal something like 23+%, which requires some charging and/or for your character to be named Ganondorf.

Tell me more about how this might be used with Ganondorf...

 

[Coffee™]

Since Fox seems to have moved into the spotlight again recently now would probably be a good time to look at his matchups. My region is whack so I can't take customs into account and base the whole thing on personal experience and results. Some characters are excluded due to a complete lack of matchup information [Ryu and the Mii characters mainly] as well.




-1:

Got a chance sit down and practice this matchup over the weekend and I think at worst it's even for Fox, more than likely it's his favor though. He has an easier time securing the kill than Yoshi does and pressures him pretty hard in neutral considering eggs really aren't very useful in the matchup. Aside from having to respect Yoshi's combo breaking moves I don't find him to have anything particularly hard for Fox to deal with.

I personally think Luigi and Ness are harder matchups.

 

[Project Quarantine]

I just played against the best Wario on Anthers and we talked about the DK vs Wario matchup. We put it slightly in DK's favor for these reasons:
DK can't get edgeguarded offstage. Without any move with downward knockback it doesn't matter how many Bairs or Fairs or Bikes he throws out, DK can always make it back.
Wario doesn't have many answers for DK's tilts. He gets outranged by almost all of them unless he uses his Bike.
DK's damage output flat out beats Wario's.
DK can edgeguard Wario. I've talked about his edgeguarding before, and his massive range on his aerials catch many of Wario's options.

But Wario has some pretty neat stuff that makes the matchup very winnable.
Wario's unparalleled ability to cover ledge options combined with DK's crappy ledge options make for a very happy Wario. Chomp covers everything sans ledge roll which can be punished on reaction.
DK has to respect Chomp as a landing option. Otherwise he gets eaten. If DK had a sword he'd be fine but he doesn't. So this makes juggling very mindgame based (moreso than usual).

Basically, DK wins mostly because of his range and tilts. I really didn't think DK had any good high tier matchups but hey that's one.

By any chance, were you playing Tweek? He is a Wario secondary that has played wario in tournament specifically for DKWill's DK before.

In this matchup, regular DK recovery might actually be better than the custom Kong Cyclone. This is because Wario can chomp DK to the edge of the stage blastzone during the cyclone, then spit him out for a kill. Similarily, Kirby can jumping inhale DK while the wind properties take them both offstage. The regular recovery may just be harder to edgeguard for wario.

But that's just a theory. A game th--

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi : Fox is even or in Fox favor for sure.
Fox has an advantage in neutral. Yoshi can't really do much in neutral but to hope for Fox to mess-up.
When Yoshi has an advantage position this is where Yoshi needs to pressure Fox by edge guarding and juggling him hard.
Yoshi struggles to kill Fox if he doesn't get an edgeguard or a hard-punish and Fox can punish Yoshis landings very well because of Yoshis terrible fall speed.
I would never consider this an advantage MU for Yoshi.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, welcome to the

/r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

Let's get kicking! One quick note before I get going, I managed to accidentally forget the DLC in the extra questions on the poll. My B. TBH these questions provide less information than the tier list itself so with this accident I didn't include them right now. Also a quick reminder that a customs on tier list will be voted on in August (after Evo so discussion can take place prior and interest can go up) and it will have a LOT of improvements (seriously, folks are going to like it). Also remember this list assumes customs are off and that Miis have access to all of their moves. So let's get on with the tier list!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories. (Please for the love of all that is good in the world read that paragraph. The number of people who say "there's too many tiers" each month is enough to make my head hurt.)

ONE LAST NOTE: Remember that three characters were just added to the game, so consider that when seeing how far some characters moved down (as at first glance it might look like a lot more than you would think).

Spoiler

(S)(13.75 | ±0) (13.18 | ±0)
(A+) (12.46 | ±0) (12.43 | ±0) (12.19 | +1)
(A) (11.96 | +3) (11.74 | ±0) (11.52 | ±0) (11.3 | +3) (11.07 | -5) (10.95 | ±0)
(A-) (10.94 | -1) (10.89 | ±0) (10.88 | -1) (10.86 | -4) 15 (10.37 | -2) (10.26 | ±0)
(B+) (9.98 | -2) (9.90 | +3) (9.79 | +2) (9.78 | -6) (9.7 | -5) (9.66 | +3) (9.57 | -1) (9.4 | -4) (9.33 | -8) (9.31 | -10) (9.07 | -9)
(B) (8.81 | -5) (8.72 | +13) (8.64 | -4) (8.6 | -7) (8.59 | -3) (8.51 | +7) (8.24 | -4)(8.11 | -1) (8 | -9)
(B-) (7.64 | -9) (7.54 | -1) (7.49 | -3) (7.46 | -9) (7.17 | -9) (7.09 | -7) (7.03 | -5) (7.02 | -5)
(C+) (6.96 | +4) (6.81 | -13) (6.77 | -4) (6.65 | -7)(6.57 | -5) (6.53 | -5) (6.5 | -1) (6.41 | -5) (6.4 | -7)
(C) (5.88 | -6)

I really think looking at this that a few spots are a bit confusing (someone will show off what characters buffs can do soon enough) but is still seriously interesting to look at and discuss. With that, I leave you all to discuss your thoughts on the list: enjoy!

 

[Mario766]

I don't see Ike vs Fox as even either. 55-45 Fox at least

 

[busken]

MK finally getting some respect lets's go!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

>Charizard gets major buffs
>Drops a spot

*sigh*

And Luigi continues to keep his crown of "most overrated character"

 

[Smooth Criminal]

:v At least the "Tournament Viable with Secondary" is accurate.

Otherwise, too high.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ILOVESMASH]

and are probably a bit too high.

 

[Lavani]

Diddy still perceived top 10 by the public after nerfs surprises me. I agree with it, but I was expecting more of a kneejerk "oh he's mid now" reaction from the first list after the patch.

lol lucas, lol charizard

Scorpion Master confirmed

(Way late, but congrats on beating ConCon! Even if you were just riding MU inexperience like you said, it's great to see someone putting in work with the King. )

 

[warionumbah2]

MK finally getting some respect lets's go!

What respect?

 

[Speed Boost]

Just looking at this tier list how are Mario and Doc that far apart? It just doesn't make sense to me Doc is a very solid character that shouldn't be put that far behind him in viability because of a slightly worse recovery and combo game. He has good combos and lots of kill power. His neutral is almost identical to Marios along with most of his kit.

 

[PUK]

Just looking at this tier list how are Mario and Doc that far apart? It just doesn't make sense to me Doc is a very solid character that shouldn't be put that far behind him in viability because of a slightly worse recovery and combo game. He has good combos and lots of kill power. His neutral is almost identical to Marios along with most of his kit.

Actually i tried Dr Mario and he really struggle against some character. He's a goos secondary, but he's unviable alone

 

[Ze Dewott]

>Shulk dropped 10 spots.
I expected him to go down, but then I expected him to go down to like, C Tier cause how badly people think of Shulk. Then I take a minute to realize that he went down 10 spots. Christ, Shulk hasn't even really been touched since the update where all his moves got 1% stronger (bar Back Slash).

 

[Spinosaurus]

Just looking at this tier list how are Mario and Doc that far apart? It just doesn't make sense to me Doc is a very solid character that shouldn't be put that far behind him in viability because of a slightly worse recovery and combo game. He has good combos and lots of kill power. His neutral is almost identical to Marios along with most of his kit.

He does better than Mario at some matchups because of his short hop game but overall his mobility is just way too bad with nothing to compensate for it. (Unlike Luigi)

 

[Wintropy]

I feel like Doc gains a lot from customs, though default Doc is severely hampered by his lack of speed.

Come to think of it, except for maybe Soaring Tornado, does Doc gain anything from customs that Mario doesn't?

 

[ProjectilePuff]

Take Note that all the recent DLC characters are in Top-Tier. Bias?

 

[Smog Frog]

I feel like Doc gains a lot from customs, though default Doc is severely hampered by his lack of speed.

Come to think of it, except for maybe Soaring Tornado, does Doc gain anything from customs that Mario doesn't?

the quick pills are better on than because moves along at a snails pace and a fast, relatively long ranged projectile that can be used while moving greatly improve pressure game, while had that pressure game with regular fireballs, because his mobility was greater.

 

[Ze Diglett]

>Charizard gets major buffs
>Drops a spot

*sigh*

Let's not forget that Ike and Falco both went up a considerable amount for their buffs. Bias, much?
Other than that, I really like the way the list looks now, especially Bowser Jr. More or less, that's where he belongs if you ask me. As far as major gripes go, Charizard, Doc, Shulk, and Kirby could all afford to go up a bit, especially the former. #SaveTheZard

 

[Speed Boost]

I feel like Doc gains a lot from customs, though default Doc is severely hampered by his lack of speed.

Come to think of it, except for maybe Soaring Tornado, does Doc gain anything from customs that Mario doesn't?

Yeah, I guess my perspective is being clouded by the fact I've played a lot of Doc with customs.

 

[Big-Cat]

Take Note that all the recent DLC characters are in Top-Tier. Bias?

I think at least in regards to Lucas. Ryu is really only going to go up with time. Roy I don't know.

I think Bowser could be a bit higher but that's my personal bias. Still looking for a comfortable secondary.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Ike went up a massive 13 spots and he's still "Tournament viable with Secondaries" lol

Meanwhile, Mewtwo plummeted as if everyone in the game became Steel Arceus.

 

[Speed Boost]

Diddy still perceived top 10 by the public after nerfs surprises me. I agree with it, but I was expecting more of a kneejerk "oh he's mid now" reaction from the first list after the patch.

Yeah, I feel like CEO did a lot for peoples' perspective on the Diddy nerf. If you watched any of Zero and MVD in Top 32 it was easy to see he still has a top tier neutral and is far from Sheik when it comes to killing.

 

[Remioli]

I think it's silly to put Luigi at third. He still has his traction issue as well as bad aerial mobility which means he gets zoned and juggled hard. I see no reason to put him above ZSS, Diddy, or sonic.

People are overreacting to the Diddy nerf as well. Up air was broken, but he still has ridiculous kill options.

 

[ThatRandomGuy42]

It's just weird to think Marth isn't top tier like he was in...Well, the other games.
Personally don't believe in tier lists all that much, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think it's silly to put Luigi at third. He still has his traction issue as well as bad aerial mobility which means he gets zoned and juggled hard. I see no reason to put him above ZSS, Diddy, or sonic.

People are overreacting to the Diddy nerf as well. Up air was broken, but he still has ridiculous kill options.

Lungi still has absurd kill setups from DThrow. For some characters, the mobility issue is relevant. Tanks like Bowser can't exploit it.

 

[Piford]

How does Link drop 9 spots after being significantly buffed? Also, the New characters should say something like New, N/A, or nothing at all instead of ±0 since ±0 implies they were on the list before.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Roy is clearly very high tier. He's got basically everything Captain Falcon has (save the knee, and bair walling is basically just fair walling) but with disjoints. Not to mention he also often kills just as early or earlier.



how about these dudes
what do these MUs look like

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I expect DK to lose to Fox, Ness, Diddy, and Yoshi, but Sonic, Rosa, and Luigi I'm on the fence about. In customs, however, I see DK beating Yoshi and maybe diddy as well (Storm punch would probably kill diddy's recovery like every other edgeguard move does and i dont know if Yoshi has much he can do about the range of some of DK's customs other than egg spam, not to mention Kong Cyclone being the unchallenged king of custom moves)

-Like I said, Fox runs circles around DK. Most difficult matchup by far.
-DK has pretty much no answers for fireballs other than consistently powersheilding, and Luigi's reward on DK off a grab is good enough to make his weight meaningless. An uphill battle for sure but DK's tilts prevent it from being impossible to win.
-With Luma this matchup is horrible for DK. She can juggle really well and her disjoints give DK a lot of problems. She can net KOs at like 20% with her disjointed down air, and Nair beats DK's entire aerial kit. Also sits really hard for DK to get out of disadvantage.
- I don't have enough experience with this matchup to have an opinion about it tbh.
-Ness keeps DK out really well with his Nair and Fair walls. Ness also has combos on DK that last until back throw kills. Honestly unless the Ness is fishing for grabs DK loses this matchup hard.
-Yoshi eats DK alive and I mean figuratively, literally, in theory, and in practice. Still not as bad as Fox though.
-I'm not sure what this matchup is like post patch but I'm fairly certain Diddy still wins pretty handily.

I have no idea what customs do to any of these matchups because we don't use customs in our scene. They aren't worth dealing with unless EVO shows they're worth the hassle to unlock the damn things lol.

@ TheReflexWonder I'll take your word for it on the Wario matchup because there aren't any Warios in my local scene so I don't have any offline experience with that matchup.