Character Competitive Impressions

[zeldasmash]

Link and Marth were significantly buffed in the last patch.

Both go down 9 spots........

 

[EvilPinkamina]

I find it funny that Charizard actually went down on the community tier list after his buffs. Buffed fair and dthrow/uthrow should have raised him. ZeRo hasn't made a video on Charizard's buff though, so I guess it's expected that people will still think he's bad. #SaveTheZard

 

[MajorMajora]

I feel like Doc gains a lot from customs, though default Doc is severely hampered by his lack of speed.

Come to think of it, except for maybe Soaring Tornado, does Doc gain anything from customs that Mario doesn't?

The ol' 1 2 is a fast out of shield option that kills at ridiculous percents and isn't nearly as punishable as it seems like it should be. It does hamper his recovery but I still think it's good.

 

[FullMoon]

I Think greninja wins againts Olimar. Because he can pressure him with Water Shurikens and Greninja makes a better damage and has a better neutral game.

Water Shuriken does nothing in the MU since pikmin just block it unless it's charged.

The buff on Greninja's f-tilt seems to be a good tool in this MU as it provides a tool to keep Pikmin away reliably. Since Olimar's recovery lacks a hitbox and is not very fast I see d-air and hydro pump strong tools for edge guarding.

Haven't tried to fight Olimar since the patch but I don't think F-Tilt is going to help much here still

Link and Marth were significantly buffed in the last patch.

Both go down 9 spots........

So did Greninja.

 

[warionumbah2]

Just noticed the '+' and '-' on that list. Derp

So every buffed character besides went down. If only Japan put Ike high so he won't get buffed again(which will happen again at this rate).

I'm jealous.

 

[Luco]

But I do think that Ness and Lucas can kick Luigi's ***.

Funnily enough, Ness mains talk about this MU a lot. Like, a lot a lot. We think Luigi goes even with or beats us, for a bunch of reasons. Idk I feel like Ness doesn't have too many special tools that give him a 'win' over the plumber. Bair is nice considering Luigi's traction but PS and you're still getting grabbed. Fair isn't all that safe, I'd like to test out frame-perfect SH (buffered) Uairs but meah, if we mess up we take so much damage, and we can edge-guard Luigi with Bair but it can be difficult if they recover properly. He kills just as early off a grab (almost) as we do, so it's rare that we live to where rage makes a significant difference when it comes to killing. And in footsies Luigi's aerials beat out or trade with most if not all of ours.

I have this secret hope that Lucas does better against Luigi but we need more time for that meta to develop. <3

@Smooth Criminal Mate you've got this! :3

And @shrooby why didn't you tell us? D: That's so exciting!!! *tacklehugz*

(-3) - Fair, nuff said

(-2) - Dash attack doesn't let him land, jab clanks with or beats all his grounded moves and stops pikmin throw, able to play footsies and dash grab anything Olimar whiffs with ease. Not unwinnable but certainly bad

(0/+1) - Pretty even actually, maybe even Oli's favor. Olimar fsmash is great in this MU but but killing is an issue for Oli and a well spaced and timed fireball stops Oli's fsmash and lets him run in for a dash grab.

(-1) - Slight disadvantage, pivot grab and jab keep him out well, just that when Mario puts Oli in the air, it's really hard for Oli to establish himself again.

(-2) - Even until kill%s where sonic can avoid or flat out contest Oli's kill options for days and Olimar can die from one slip up or just getting read once at 100%. Also very hard for Oli to land.

(-2) - Quick Attack > All of oli's moves except perfectly spaced and timed tilts, jab, and nair, Olimar can't really punish Pikachu's pressure game well either. And of course landing is an issue.

(+1) - Oli's favor (Diddy has trouble killing or approaching Oli)

(+1) - Oli's favor (Too easy to kill Luma and Rosa isn't fast enough and doesn't have safe pressure)

- Not enough experience here.

(-2) Think Falcon but add in nair crossups, jab -> anything, and the potential to die at 90 from upsmash.

(-2) TBH not much experience but his Sword is really annoying and Oli in the air is basically without options, MK's ground speed lets him get his openings super easily.

(+1) Yoshi has a lot of trouble hitting Oli and he's forced to approach, hard for Oli to kill but that's status quo for him.

(+1) Keeps Ness out really well and only really has to worry about random dash attacks which beats basically all of Oli's moves.

(+2) Pikmin toss legit beats half of Villager's moveset, fsmash and pivot grab doesn't let him get close enough for the other half.

Any other important MUs I missed? (All customs off keep in mind)

@Gheb_01 Referring to that specific MU

Oh? That's... Interesting. Doesn't Ness wreck Oli in the air though? I've heard a lot of Ness mains say they think this MU is in our favour, but you've sparked my interest. Any good high level matches to watch on this one? :D

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Water Shuriken does nothing in the MU since pikmin just block it unless it's charged.



Haven't tried to fight Olimar since the patch but I don't think F-Tilt is going to help much here still



So did Greninja.

Would Stagnant Shuriken help at all? Intuition says no but I can't remember if it lingers after hit or not.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I thought Kirby moved up because he was getting the respect he deserved, but now I realize it was because of ZeRo's hype. ggwp

 

[Luco]

Also, guys, keep in mind what Smashcapps said. This is with the DLC characters. The + and - system is in regards to placement... literally. If my character is at spot #26 on the last tier list and doesn't change a bit, he's still going to be #29 this time because 3 DLC characters were put in high/top tier.

IN OTHER WORDS, EVERY CHARACTER BELOW THE LOWEST RANKED DLC CHARACTER HAS, IN THE MOST TECHNICAL SENSE, GONE DOWN 3 SPOTS, WHICH IS SHOWN IN THEIR +/- RANKINGS. -2 SPOTS FOR EACH CHARACTER IN BETWEEN LAST AND SECOND LAST DLC CHARACTER, ETC.

With that in mind, Charizard practically went up 2 spots. Which is a start!

 

[Gunla]

As Fullmoon stated, Water Shuriken doesn't really help against Olimar unless you charge it. The matchup isn't in a favor, per say, but it's a case of Olimar winning the ground and Greninja having the air advantage. The change to F-Tilt hasn't really changed the matchup, either; it doesn't help against the Pikmin compared to other moves. Stagnant's a lingering move that has potential uses, though, depending on what the position of Greninja is relative to Olimar.

Pretty solid on it being a 50:50 or in that range, however.

 

[FullMoon]

Would Stagnant Shuriken help at all? Intuition says no but I can't remember if it lingers after hit or not.

Stagnant lingers after hit, yes, but I think blue Pikmin are immune to it. Stagnant Shuriken would probably have it's uses, but still be pretty limited unless charged fully as well.

I'm not the best person to talk about it though as I rarely play with customs and I don't think I ever tried Stagnant Shuriken.

I think Shifting Shuriken is probably the best against Olimar since it would just go through Pikmin being tossed and hit Olimar and put him in place for Up-Smash, that's my theory at least.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

The 3 new DLC characters mean that everyone in b-tier or below dropped at least 3 spots, so actually rose 2 spots.

Edit:'d

 

[Gunla]

Oh, Shifting. Forgot about that. That or Stagnant are helpful in this matchup, but blue Pikmin are the biggest issue Greninja has with the matchup solely because they're harder for him to get rid of. I can see Shifting because of the transcendence coming along faster than WS (which has to be fully charged), and it moves, but it doesn't linger as much as a charged Stagnant.

 

[san.]

Just noticed the '+' and '-' on that list. Derp

So every buffed character besides went down. If only Japan put Ike high so he won't get buffed again(which will happen again at this rate).

I'm jealous.

He's barely as good as kirby apparently. I think a few more buffs will be beneficial. Nair 12->10 frames, grab range buffed, 3 frame jab, lower IASA on most attacks .

Speaking of , the startup boost of his sideB aids his recovery since you can go farther at the same charge time as before, allows him to snap to the edge more easily, and it gives him a better situational juggle escape tool. This is most easily recognizable on Lylat, where Ike can quickly sideB to the middle or side platforms at will and likely autocancel upon landing. It may also be situationally useful on other platform stages. Before, it was easier to react to it. Now, Ike can react to the opponent and release if the opponent jumps or commits, or hold the charge and reset if he feels like it.

Even though Ike has a few options against juggle and landing traps with QD and spaced aerials, he is still weak to combo strings where he only has a few frames to retaliate, and mostly needs to rely on good usage of DI, double jumps, and air dodges. If the opponent is careless and stays too close to him, bair may be used as a last ditch effort attack. Fortunately, the global options are good enough to avoid some damage depending on the skill of the player. Many of the dangerous throws on Ike are weight-dependent, meaning that the opponent has less time to follow up for heavier opponents. Ike may have to take a few hits before committing to using his double jump.

Counter is actually useful in the fact that it's not going to be used the same way as other counters. They made it into a kill move as an alternative to attacking for the kill. All it takes is a tiny read at 110% depending on the weight, even as simple as a landing aerial, and it can kill.

QD and counter were rarely utilized before, so it will take a while for those kinds of things to develop, even though I believe there is potential for some use.

The buffs to his other moves have been explained enough. It allows for combos, frame traps, and playing in the neutral better. The interesting thing about Ike is that he can combo off of most of his BnB spacing moves pretty easily, such as dtilt and practically all aerials outside of dair. This makes it so that his smashes are situationally useful at the 70-90% area. He doesn't really need them at high percents anymore since other methods are much more reliable, but if a good situation comes up at lower percents (especially with rage), then it's there at least.

 

[FUEGO!]

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, welcome to the

/r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

Let's get kicking! One quick note before I get going, I managed to accidentally forget the DLC in the extra questions on the poll. My B. TBH these questions provide less information than the tier list itself so with this accident I didn't include them right now. Also a quick reminder that a customs on tier list will be voted on in August (after Evo so discussion can take place prior and interest can go up) and it will have a LOT of improvements (seriously, folks are going to like it). Also remember this list assumes customs are off and that Miis have access to all of their moves. So let's get on with the tier list!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories. (Please for the love of all that is good in the world read that paragraph. The number of people who say "there's too many tiers" each month is enough to make my head hurt.)

ONE LAST NOTE: Remember that three characters were just added to the game, so consider that when seeing how far some characters moved down (as at first glance it might look like a lot more than you would think).

Spoiler

(S)(13.75 | ±0) (13.18 | ±0)
(A+) (12.46 | ±0) (12.43 | ±0) (12.19 | +1)
(A) (11.96 | +3) (11.74 | ±0) (11.52 | ±0) (11.3 | +3) (11.07 | -5) (10.95 | ±0)
(A-) (10.94 | -1) (10.89 | ±0) (10.88 | -1) (10.86 | -4) 15 (10.37 | -2) (10.26 | ±0)
(B+) (9.98 | -2) (9.90 | +3) (9.79 | +2) (9.78 | -6) (9.7 | -5) (9.66 | +3) (9.57 | -1) (9.4 | -4) (9.33 | -8) (9.31 | -10) (9.07 | -9)
(B) (8.81 | -5) (8.72 | +13) (8.64 | -4) (8.6 | -7) (8.59 | -3) (8.51 | +7) (8.24 | -4)(8.11 | -1) (8 | -9)
(B-) (7.64 | -9) (7.54 | -1) (7.49 | -3) (7.46 | -9) (7.17 | -9) (7.09 | -7) (7.03 | -5) (7.02 | -5)
(C+) (6.96 | +4) (6.81 | -13) (6.77 | -4) (6.65 | -7)(6.57 | -5) (6.53 | -5) (6.5 | -1) (6.41 | -5) (6.4 | -7)
(C) (5.88 | -6)

I really think looking at this that a few spots are a bit confusing (someone will show off what characters buffs can do soon enough) but is still seriously interesting to look at and discuss. With that, I leave you all to discuss your thoughts on the list: enjoy!

Quite a bit wrong with this. Swap Luigi and Ness, Lucas and Diddy, Villager and fox, and then Mario with Yoshi and then S Through A- is at least believable.

 

[FullMoon]

As Fullmoon stated, Water Shuriken doesn't really help against Olimar unless you charge it. The matchup isn't in a favor, per say, but it's a case of Olimar winning the ground and Greninja having the air advantage. The change to F-Tilt hasn't really changed the matchup, either; it doesn't help against the Pikmin compared to other moves. Stagnant's a lingering move that has potential uses, though, depending on what the position of Greninja is relative to Olimar.

Pretty solid on it being a 50:50 or in that range, however.

The basic of MU is Olimar wins in the ground and Greninja wins in the air, yeah, which would make it even basically but you forgot that Greninja can edgeguard Olimar pretty well too since Hydro Pump is just going to propel Olimar way up where he puts himself in a perfect place for Up-Smash or something else. That could cause the MU to sway in our favor.

I do still think it's even just because it's so hard to get Olimar in the air in the first place and him being small makes him harder to juggle, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[Ikes]

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, welcome to the

/r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

Let's get kicking! One quick note before I get going, I managed to accidentally forget the DLC in the extra questions on the poll. My B. TBH these questions provide less information than the tier list itself so with this accident I didn't include them right now. Also a quick reminder that a customs on tier list will be voted on in August (after Evo so discussion can take place prior and interest can go up) and it will have a LOT of improvements (seriously, folks are going to like it). Also remember this list assumes customs are off and that Miis have access to all of their moves. So let's get on with the tier list!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories. (Please for the love of all that is good in the world read that paragraph. The number of people who say "there's too many tiers" each month is enough to make my head hurt.)

ONE LAST NOTE: Remember that three characters were just added to the game, so consider that when seeing how far some characters moved down (as at first glance it might look like a lot more than you would think).

Spoiler

(S)(13.75 | ±0) (13.18 | ±0)
(A+) (12.46 | ±0) (12.43 | ±0) (12.19 | +1)
(A) (11.96 | +3) (11.74 | ±0) (11.52 | ±0) (11.3 | +3) (11.07 | -5) (10.95 | ±0)
(A-) (10.94 | -1) (10.89 | ±0) (10.88 | -1) (10.86 | -4) 15 (10.37 | -2) (10.26 | ±0)
(B+) (9.98 | -2) (9.90 | +3) (9.79 | +2) (9.78 | -6) (9.7 | -5) (9.66 | +3) (9.57 | -1) (9.4 | -4) (9.33 | -8) (9.31 | -10) (9.07 | -9)
(B) (8.81 | -5) (8.72 | +13) (8.64 | -4) (8.6 | -7) (8.59 | -3) (8.51 | +7) (8.24 | -4)(8.11 | -1) (8 | -9)
(B-) (7.64 | -9) (7.54 | -1) (7.49 | -3) (7.46 | -9) (7.17 | -9) (7.09 | -7) (7.03 | -5) (7.02 | -5)
(C+) (6.96 | +4) (6.81 | -13) (6.77 | -4) (6.65 | -7)(6.57 | -5) (6.53 | -5) (6.5 | -1) (6.41 | -5) (6.4 | -7)
(C) (5.88 | -6)

I really think looking at this that a few spots are a bit confusing (someone will show off what characters buffs can do soon enough) but is still seriously interesting to look at and discuss. With that, I leave you all to discuss your thoughts on the list: enjoy!

I think we need to work on a proper Smashboards tier list, this R/Smashbros one is showing a lot of hivemind tendencies (primarily MK being too low and Luigi being overrated to hell, among charizard dropping a spot and swordfighter still being low)

What I want to know is, which of us would actually be qualified to collect data and make this list?

 

[A_Kae]

I think we need to work on a proper Smashboards tier list, this R/Smashbros one is showing a lot of hivemind tendencies (primarily MK being too low and Luigi being overrated to hell, among charizard dropping a spot and swordfighter still being low)

What I want to know is, which of us would actually be qualified to collect data and make this list?

There's a community tier list being made right now, if you want to help out: http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-...n-2-05-new-votes-from-the-1st-of-july.379736/

And as far as community tier lists go, /r/smashbros is actually kind of OK. Remember eventhubs?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I think we need to work on a proper Smashboards tier list, this R/Smashbros one is showing a lot of hivemind tendencies (primarily MK being too low and Luigi being overrated to hell, among charizard dropping a spot and swordfighter still being low)

What I want to know is, which of us would actually be qualified to collect data and make this list?

Maybe we should do the same as what Melee and 64 did for their most recent tier list, where we let people put in their tier list vote, and the general total is used

 

[Ikes]

-Like I said, Fox runs circles around DK. Most difficult matchup by far.
-DK has pretty much no answers for fireballs other than consistently powersheilding, and Luigi's reward on DK off a grab is good enough to make his weight meaningless. An uphill battle for sure but DK's tilts prevent it from being impossible to win.
-With Luma this matchup is horrible for DK. She can juggle really well and her disjoints give DK a lot of problems. She can net KOs at like 20% with her disjointed down air, and Nair beats DK's entire aerial kit. Also sits really hard for DK to get out of disadvantage.
- I don't have enough experience with this matchup to have an opinion about it tbh.
-Ness keeps DK out really well with his Nair and Fair walls. Ness also has combos on DK that last until back throw kills. Honestly unless the Ness is fishing for grabs DK loses this matchup hard.
-Yoshi eats DK alive and I mean figuratively, literally, in theory, and in practice. Still not as bad as Fox though.
-I'm not sure what this matchup is like post patch but I'm fairly certain Diddy still wins pretty handily.

I have no idea what customs do to any of these matchups because we don't use customs in our scene. They aren't worth dealing with unless EVO shows they're worth the hassle to unlock the damn things lol.

@ TheReflexWonder I'll take your word for it on the Wario matchup because there aren't any Warios in my local scene so I don't have any offline experience with that matchup.

If DK can consistently KO Luma wouldnt this be made much easier? And it shouldnt be horrible to KO Luma since his damage output and mobility are very good, and once Luma is gone, Rosalina, while still having good aerial game, is mega floaty and has a huge frame making her wholly susceptible to bair walls and especially DK's enormously ranged tilts. If Rosa plays a campy defensive game after Luma is gone I can see that being an issue if the DK player cant catch up, but since DK has some of the better aerial mobility in the game and decent ground speed, I dont see it being incredibly hard to catch Rosa in this state. however with luma I can see her ****ting all over DK but if DK can power through that and beat out Luma I can see the matchup turning pretty quickly

Maybe 60:40 Rosas favor?

as for Sonic, I feel like a lot of DKs tilts and aerials could **** up sonics approach options especially since most of his moves likely have priority over Sonics spin dashes/whatever other moves turn him into a blue circle. Sonic doesnt have any significant ranged game, though his combos would probably work exceptionally well on DKs large frame. However since Sonic has a relatively low damage output and DK severely outdamages him, could DK turtle through this MU? Could it be even for both characters? We'd probably have to ask DKWill.

As for Luigi I can see what you mean, but isnt Luigi also susceptible to DKs aerial strings and tilts since he lacks any range options besides fireballs? And fireballs dont net KOs. Also remember that DKs tilts pretty much set up into every combo he has and his aerial strings are terrifying as hell. Uair is probably one of the scariest moves in the game outside of his Bair. I'd honestly call DKs Bair, Uair, and all his tilts some of the best moves of their kinds in the game because of how fast/powerful/large they are.

 

[Iron Kraken]

A few pages back @ Iron Kraken said they went toe to toe with @Dabuz and Iron Kraken has Pit as a secondary. I would be interested to hear both their thoughts on the Pit/Rosalina match up.

I'm not even close to Dabuz's level. I just mentioned that I've played him fairly close in Rosa dittos because I think it shows something: how much knowledge matters in the match up. My knowledge of Rosa allows me to hang with his Rosa. I mean, the same thing can be said about every character: match up knowledge is crucial. But I do suspect that many people are particularly lacking in their knowledge of Rosa, because unless you play her yourself it's hard to truly get a grasp on how she plays.

(Also the fact that Dabuz hates the ditto and I love it might be a factor. )

As far as Pit vs. Rosa goes...

I'd say it's slightly in Rosa's favor. But Pit has some good stuff. For example, he can recover fairly reliably with all his jumps and Side-B. Dark's Pit Electroshock Arm of course destroys Luma, and Pit's Upperdash Arm kills Rosalina well below 100% with just a little rage. Pit really has no problem killing Rosa in general, between his smash attacks (which aren't that difficult to land against Rosa), F-Throw, and easy edge guards, combined with Rosa's light weight.

But Rosa still wins the neutral pretty solidly. Normally Pit's neutral game relies on his spacing tools and his grab game. But Rosalina wins the spacing game against Pit as long as she has Luma, so Pit is forced to go after Rosa, and Pit doesn't have the speed like Pikachu/ZSS/Sheik where he can easily apply safe pressure.

So overall I'd say the match up is in Rosa's favor, but it's very doable for Pit.

 

[Luco]

Quite a bit wrong with this. Swap Luigi and Ness, Lucas and Diddy, Villager and fox, and then Mario with Yoshi and then S Through A- is at least believable.

Ness just isn't top 3, and top 5 is more than a little bit of a stretch. Also, Lucas is overhyped. Potentially a good character, but needs time to develop and isn't seeing anywhere near the results any of his 'peers' in high tier are seeing.

Villager is good but not where Fox is. An argument could be made for Fox being lower than he is maybe but certainly not that low. Mario isn't as high as you think he is, although Yoshi could deserve to move down.

among charizard dropping a spot and swordfighter still being low)

Read my last post! XD

The thing that should be tipping you guys off is the fact that on the last tier list, Charizard was literally dead last.

 

[Spiderfog]

Wait, what happened to Shulk, Mewtwo, Link, Kirby, and Marth that made them drop so many spots?

 

[A_Kae]

Wait, what happened to Shulk, Mewtwo, Link, Kirby, and Marth that made them drop so many spots?

It's a community tier list made by a community that has no business making a tier list.

That kind of thing just tends to happen in this situation, it's amazing that it's as good as it is.

Edit: To clarify, nothing bad happened to any of them. Marth and Link got some great buffs in the patch, don't know about the others, not nerfed at least.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I have this secret hope that Lucas does better against Luigi but we need more time for that meta to develop. <3

This wouldn't surprise me actually. Lucas has a lot more spacing tools than Ness, particularly Zair and PK Fire, and if Luigi can't get in he has trouble. Not to mention Lucas's magnet heals more and can blast Luigi away if he tries fireballs.

 

[Spiderfog]

It's a community tier list made by a community that has no business making a tier list.

That kind of thing just tends to happen in this situation, it's amazing that it's as good as it is.

Edit: To clarify, nothing bad happened to any of them. Marth and Link got some great buffs in the patch, don't know about the others, not nerfed at least.

I'm aware of how it works. I'm just confused as to why people are thinking so low of them. (not that they're all great characters, but they all seem better than their actual spots on that list)

 

[A_Kae]

I'm aware of how it works. I'm just confused as to why people are thinking so low of them. (not that they're all great characters, but they all seem better than their actual spots on that list)

My point was that these people don't know enough to say, and that Shulk and Marth in particular definitely hard characters that /r/smashbros doesn't know well to judge accurately. That goes for all of them though, none of them I would say are easy to use and that equals people thinking much less of them.

Making a tier list when you don't know the characters is a bad idea and it's why I don't bother trying myself, because inaccuracies like these happen.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Alright I just had a really solid match against an Olimar and finally figured him out.

Quite simply, any instance wherein a pikmin is away from Olimar, the pikmin is vulnerable to damage. Kill the pikmin.

It's astounding how much pressure you put on Olimar by doing this at every opportunity. Suddenly Olimar's at a continuous disadvantage, and you have every opportunity to keep the pressure on him...

On an aside, I was playing Ike in said match and think he has a really good MU. Meaty disjoints that kill pikmin in one hit? Yes please. Nair that hits every attached pikmin, while simultaneously being Ike's best approach tool? You don't have to think laterally if Olimar can't pressure you at all.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's important to know the options you have to KO Pikmin no matter how they're attached to you. The first time I fought an Olimar, I was frustrated that so many of my attacks seemed to get rid of Pikmin only some of the time.

Wario will always hit and kill any Pikmin on him with B-Air. That's the only reliable option I know, but one is quite enough.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja can get Pikmin out of him with N-Air but the blue ones are immune to it, I think F-Smash will always get rid of them though.

If N-Air could get rid of all Pikmin the MU would be a lot less irritating.

 

[FUEGO!]

This wouldn't surprise me actually. Lucas has a lot more spacing tools than Ness, particularly Zair and PK Fire, and if Luigi can't get in he has trouble. Not to mention Lucas's magnet heals more and can blast Luigi away if he tries fireballs.

He's amazing against Luigi, which is specifically why I argue he is A and not A-. I still think Ness is top 3, he's only truly beaten by Shiek and Rosa, all his other "bad" matchups have work arounds, with the top two being the only ones that he has none.

 

[wedl!!]

Wait, what happened to Shulk, Mewtwo, Link, Kirby, and Marth that made them drop so many spots?

leddit

i have no idea how link and marth dropped considering they were buffed (does the hivemind think theyre bad or something???), but m2 is crap anyways so it was bound to happen

 

[Nobie]

How is Mega Man vs. Olimar? It's a matchup where my opinion on it constantly changes as to who has the advantage, which ultimately might mean that it's just even. There's just something about the interactions between their tools that makes them feel like terrible matchups for each other.

Also Re: Meta Knight vs. Olimar, it might be useful to remember that Meta Knight's up throw can separate Olimar from his Pikmin (who can then be killed by a convenient sword swipe after), leaving Olimar vulnerable to being in the worst possible situation: in the air, with no Pikmin, vs. a character who looooves to juggle.

One other Olimar question: Are Red Pikmin in particular highly valued in the Luigi matchup because of the fact that they can eat Fireballs and keep traveling?

 

[Luco]

He's amazing against Luigi, which is specifically why I argue he is A and not A-. I still think Ness is top 3, he's only truly beaten by Shiek and Rosa, all his other "bad" matchups have work arounds, with the top two being the only ones that he has none.

Sheik is more manageable than Sonic arguably. Both are eck though. Also Ness has a slew of evenish MUs across the board and Luigi and Diddy are still both arguably losses, on top of a few other random characters like Megaman. Other top tiers have better MU spreads.

 

[Wintropy]

- Rosalina vs Pit -

This is a very interesting read. I dread fighting Rosalina with Pit and would have definitely placed it as quite heavily in Rosie's favour. Nice to know there's hope for the wingéd wonder yet!

Few questions, though, if you will.

...his smash attacks (which aren't that difficult to land against Rosa)...

Explain please? In my experience, all anyone has to do against f-smash is shield it and hey, there's a free shieldgrab. Not sure how Rosie is any more vulnerable. Unless you're referring to, say, u-smash being easier to connect due to Rosie's height, which would be very useful to keep in mind.

Or you could just mean that Rosie's made of glass and can't withstand a fresh f-smash to the face. In which case, I'm right there in your corner.

But Rosa still wins the neutral pretty solidly. Normally Pit's neutral game relies on his spacing tools and his grab game. But Rosalina wins the spacing game against Pit as long as she has Luma, so Pit is forced to go after Rosa, and Pit doesn't have the speed like Pikachu/ZSS/Sheik where he can easily apply safe pressure.

This I can definitely agree with. Approaching Rosie and her mobile meat shield is not fun.

That said, how about when Luma's KO'd? Can Solo!Rosie still hold her own against Pit? I feel like her toolkit's fast and strong enough to hold off Pit, at least while she waits out the clock. She's got decent KO power and good frame data, everything Pit does is just punish bait if she's quick enough to shield -> grab / smash. It's difficult to get close enough to challenge her, solo or otherwise.

Unless I'm doing it totally wrong and I shouldn't try challenge her. I just struggle to consider how Pit can keep his head in this MU, since Rosie can do damn near everything he can and has a puppet to play keepaway.

Alright I just had a really solid match against an Olimar and finally figured him out.

Quite simply, any instance wherein a pikmin is away from Olimar, the pikmin is vulnerable to damage. Kill the pikmin.

It's astounding how much pressure you put on Olimar by doing this at every opportunity. Suddenly Olimar's at a continuous disadvantage, and you have every opportunity to keep the pressure on him...

On an aside, I was playing Ike in said match and think he has a really good MU. Meaty disjoints that kill pikmin in one hit? Yes please. Nair that hits every attached pikmin, while simultaneously being Ike's best approach tool? You don't have to think laterally if Olimar can't pressure you at all.

I'm taking notes on this one. I'm learning so much, thank you for the info~

EDIT: What's the consensus on Olimar deliberately throwing Pikmin at you to bait a response? I know the Olimar I spar with just tosses them at me with the knowledge I'll instinctively shorthop n-air them off. Is it a useful trick or am I just that gullible?

 

[TriTails]

It's kind of funny on how Pit is the most balanced character than Mario in Smash 4. Mario is more of 'speedy weak guy' compared to Pit.

Speaking of Mario, what top tier does he beat?

 

[migul]

It's kind of funny on how Pit is the most balanced character than Mario in Smash 4. Mario is more of 'speedy weak guy' compared to Pit.

Speaking of Mario, what top tier does he beat?

His Pika MU is even at worst.

This is a very interesting read. I dread fighting Rosalina with Pit and would have definitely placed it as quite heavily in Rosie's favour. Nice to know there's hope for the wingéd wonder yet!

Few questions, though, if you will.



Explain please? In my experience, all anyone has to do against f-smash is shield it and hey, there's a free shieldgrab. Not sure how Rosie is any more vulnerable. Unless you're referring to, say, u-smash being easier to connect due to Rosie's height, which would be very useful to keep in mind.

Or you could just mean that Rosie's made of glass and can't withstand a fresh f-smash to the face. In which case, I'm right there in your corner.



This I can definitely agree with. Approaching Rosie and her mobile meat shield is not fun.

That said, how about when Luma's KO'd? Can Solo!Rosie still hold her own against Pit? I feel like her toolkit's fast and strong enough to hold off Pit, at least while she waits out the clock. She's got decent KO power and good frame data, everything Pit does is just punish bait if she's quick enough to shield -> grab / smash. It's difficult to get close enough to challenge her, solo or otherwise.

Unless I'm doing it totally wrong and I shouldn't try challenge her. I just struggle to consider how Pit can keep his head in this MU, since Rosie can do damn near everything he can and has a puppet to play keepaway.



I'm taking notes on this one. I'm learning so much, thank you for the info~

EDIT: What's the consensus on Olimar deliberately throwing Pikmin at you to bait a response? I know the Olimar I spar with just tosses them at me with the knowledge I'll instinctively shorthop n-air them off. Is it a useful trick or am I just that gullible?

It could potentially be a form of conditioning. Noticing habits like that could be very useful.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

If DK can consistently KO Luma wouldnt this be made much easier? And it shouldnt be horrible to KO Luma since his damage output and mobility are very good, and once Luma is gone, Rosalina, while still having good aerial game, is mega floaty and has a huge frame making her wholly susceptible to bair walls and especially DK's enormously ranged tilts. If Rosa plays a campy defensive game after Luma is gone I can see that being an issue if the DK player cant catch up, but since DK has some of the better aerial mobility in the game and decent ground speed, I dont see it being incredibly hard to catch Rosa in this state. however with luma I can see her ****ting all over DK but if DK can power through that and beat out Luma I can see the matchup turning pretty quickly

Maybe 60:40 Rosas favor?

as for Sonic, I feel like a lot of DKs tilts and aerials could **** up sonics approach options especially since most of his moves likely have priority over Sonics spin dashes/whatever other moves turn him into a blue circle. Sonic doesnt have any significant ranged game, though his combos would probably work exceptionally well on DKs large frame. However since Sonic has a relatively low damage output and DK severely outdamages him, could DK turtle through this MU? Could it be even for both characters? We'd probably have to ask DKWill.

As for Luigi I can see what you mean, but isnt Luigi also susceptible to DKs aerial strings and tilts since he lacks any range options besides fireballs? And fireballs dont net KOs. Also remember that DKs tilts pretty much set up into every combo he has and his aerial strings are terrifying as hell. Uair is probably one of the scariest moves in the game outside of his Bair. I'd honestly call DKs Bair, Uair, and all his tilts some of the best moves of their kinds in the game because of how fast/powerful/large they are.

On -- Everything you said is kind of in theory. Sure once Luma is gone he kinda has a chance but be specific. What move does DK have that can get rid of Luma? It's like saying Little Mac sucks because "you just get him offstage and gimp him." But there's so much more to it than that, which is why he isn't considered to be the worst. It's too early to put concrete numbers on matchups. DK isn't fully explored and frankly, neither is Rosalina (or anyone else.) This game is still new whether people want to admit it or not.
On While I don't have any offline experience with this matchup, we can use common sense. Sonic outbuttons him.
On Yes, fireballs do net KOs because they confirm grabs which confirms a plethora of kill options. He wins no matter how you spin it.

Basically, I've found that discussion without actually putting anything into practice leads to a lot of useless speculation (I'm not directing this at you, I'm just making a point). Who remembers before the Mewtwo patch when many people were saying that Olimar is a Diddy counter? Like, 70%-KOs-Diddy. Of course he wasn't. But we saw one match with @Dabuz proving what he can do and we just jumped the gun. Don't get me wrong, almost all discussion is important, but sometimes we just gotta follow @Omni 's advice and "play the damn game."

 

[bc1910]

I feel bad even discussing the r/smashbros tier list because, as ever, it adds nothing of value to this thread. But this one really takes the cake. Everyone who got buffed dropped significantly except Ike and Charizard. It's pathetic. Even discounting DLC, Charizard went up by 1 spot and is still bottom 5 whilst in reality he's probably not even low tier any more, let alone bottom. This is probably the worst list yet, and there have been some dreadful ones.

Capps' hard work shouldn't go to waste, because it's not really his fault that the lists are terrible (although he has been told by multiple users he should stop doing them and has even thought of doing so himself), but could the r/smashbros tier list series get its own thread? Far, far away from this one?

Do we really have to be subjected to this nonsense every month?

 

[Wintropy]

It could potentially be a form of conditioning. Noticing habits like that could be very useful.

Good point. Just adds onto my theory that Olimar's playstyle is as much about controlling the opponent as it is the Pikmin.

Theorycrafting, but I reckon Olimar would be at least a tiny bit more bearable if he wasn't so microscopic. I swear that tiny hurtbox is designed to duck under every attempt at punishing him.