Character Competitive Impressions

[Leeyam]

Why do people consider Toon Link to be a very average character? From my own experience and checking on the TL matchup discussions it doesn't seem like he has that many poor matchups at all.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Speaking of Mario, what top tier does he beat?

I think he wins against Wario for what it's worth.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

People say Mario is one of Sheik's worst matchups, too, iirc.

Mario definitely wins against Wario.

 

[FullMoon]

Why do people consider Toon Link to be a very average character? From my own experience and checking on the TL matchup discussions it doesn't seem like he has that many poor matchups at all.

That's the thing.

A lot of characters don't have that many poor MUs.

 

[bc1910]

Why do people consider Toon Link to be a very average character? From my own experience and checking on the TL matchup discussions it doesn't seem like he has that many poor matchups at all.

The average character in Sm4sh doesn't have many poor MUs. Most of the high and mid tiers don't lose badly to many characters, if any. It's not something that sets Toon Link apart from the crowd.

That said, opinions tend to vary on him a lot. Some consider him sleeper high tier, others consider him to be a bad character saved by bombs. It's pretty much universally agreed that bombs are really good, though.

 

[Makorel]

EDIT: What's the consensus on Olimar deliberately throwing Pikmin at you to bait a response? I know the Olimar I spar with just tosses them at me with the knowledge I'll instinctively shorthop n-air them off. Is it a useful trick or am I just that gullible?

If Olimar is throwing Pikmin out he better have a follow up to that because otherwise it's a dead pikmin, and unless he's safe to pluck Olimar can't afford to have more than one dead Pikmin at a time. One missing Pikmin is a pluck that can potentially be punished. Two missing Pikmin turns Olimar into a character that doesn't have reliable moves and 3 missing Pikmin turns him into a punching bag.

Also are Pits still using Nair to get the Pikmin off? It makes the move lag tremendously and doesn't even kill them. Down Smash seems to be the better move for that purpose.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'd just like to mention that if you're using smash attacks to get pikmin off of you it's a free grab.

 

[wedl!!]

since it was brought up that olimar is strong on the ground and weak in the air, how does he fare against mac?

 

[FullMoon]

Olimar outranges Mac pretty solidly on the ground and well, if your opponent in the air is Little Mac, you don't exactly need a very strong aerial game to beat him there.

Pretty sure Olimar would win, at least in theory.

 

[hypersonicJD]

^I don't agree at all. Because Mac can use his armor attacks and get in with Olimar. And Olimar doesn't have the speed as Little Mac. And Little Mac can actually use counter to traspass a Pikmin attack and punish Olimar.

 

[Ikes]

so uh,

lucario is really good

 

[Makorel]

I'd just like to mention that if you're using smash attacks to get pikmin off of you it's a free grab.

In my experience the lag that Nair colliding with a Pikmin produces is also a free punish.

Actually the more I test Pit's Nair the less I like it for getting Pikmin off, mostly due to its consistency. Sometimes it lags, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it gets the Pikmin off on the first couple hits. Sometimes the Pikmin takes all the hits and doesn't get dislodged. Sometimes the Pikmin barely gets hit at all. I could use Up air or Down air but either one only works depending on where the Pikmin is on Pit's body. With Down Smash I can guarantee a dead Pikmin no matter where it is and it's already a spacing tool so I'm not entirely defenseless.

 

[Radical Larry]

There's the possibility that Link could beat Sheik now in the MU. That grab range and speed buff Link got, plus the D-Tilt and Throw buffs all help a lot against Sheik. Link's normally not a good character against Sheik in the Smash games (except Project M, but that's debatable and not for here), but I feel he's rocking a solid 50:50 (worst) to 60:40 (best) with Sheik in the MU, and mostly because of his grab buff just making him a bit more of a danger to top tiers now.

 

[Ikes]

Olimar outranges Mac pretty solidly on the ground and well, if your opponent in the air is Little Mac, you don't exactly need a very strong aerial game to beat him there.

Pretty sure Olimar would win, at least in theory.

ooooh, now this is a tricky one

especially cause mac's super armor gives him one weird wildcard in this matchup thats nowhere else

If mac has a pikmin on him attacking him, sure most characters would attack them off, but since that puts you in hitlag you become vulnerable

this is NOT the case with mac, since all of his smashes have super armor, and the hitlag not only extends the duration of the hitbox but ALSO the duration of the super armor

so Olimar trying to bait mac into removing the pikmin and attacking mac as he's mid-attack works significantly less cause olimar has a much smaller window to hit him out of the attack, cause super armor

in fact i think Mac has the upper hand here since he benefits from rage A LOT against floaty characters/characters that die quickly. And Olimar is both of these. Macs super armor on his smashes is theoretically phenomenal in this matchup because Olimars disjoints are small and Macs smash range is surprisingly long (sometimes even being disjointed themselves to a degree). Mac can pretty much smack Olimar around in this matchup if you ask me.

 

[HFlash]

The average character in Sm4sh doesn't have many poor MUs. Most of the high and mid tiers don't lose badly to many characters, if any. It's not something that sets Toon Link apart from the crowd.

That said, opinions tend to vary on him a lot. Some consider him sleeper high tier, others consider him to be a bad character saved by bombs. It's pretty much universally agreed that bombs are really good, though.

I think a big part of it is that he has a poorly developed meta game and exposure compared to alot of the cast, so you don't see his true potential until that random God-like TL main comes into a scene randomly and pub stomps several people.

 

[RegalSwan]

Stuff

worth note as one of the things nobody ever brings up about the mac\olimar matchup - Mac's absurd ground speed makes throwing pikmin, plucking pikmin, reordering pikmin, basically EVERYTHING a terrible idea for Olimar; in the time it takes you to touch the ground and pluck 3 pikmin, mac's crossed the stage and dash attacked\up smashed you into oblivion.

good matchup for mac in total honesty.

 

[Teshie U]

There's the possibility that Link could beat Sheik now in the MU. That grab range and speed buff Link got, plus the D-Tilt and Throw buffs all help a lot against Sheik. Link's normally not a good character against Sheik in the Smash games (except Project M, but that's debatable and not for here), but I feel he's rocking a solid 50:50 (worst) to 60:40 (best) with Sheik in the MU, and mostly because of his grab buff just making him a bit more of a danger to top tiers now.

Grab range isn't going to help much vs Sheik. She lands pretty much anywhere she wants with frame safety. When dealing with high range characters that rely on massive range and spacing for safety (like another swordsman or rosalina) or shield push from high knockback (falcon, roy, ganondorf) tethers get a chance to shine and shieldgrab otherwise effectively safe options.

But no amount of grab range is really going to help a slow tether grab get a hold of sheik. Link has nice power and range, but doesn't have any of the quick options you need to handle sheik outside of long range.

 

[TriTails]

Edit: Never mind.

And not seeing on how much better grab game is going to help against Sheik. Link's attacks are still far too slow and Link still get rekt hard up close. Comboing him isn't a problem and Link's projectiles are all slow despite covering quite large distance to challenge Sheik's needles.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Teshie U Link's grab isn't actually that slow; his pivot grab and dash grab are slow, but not his normal grab. And I have no trouble grabbing Sheik, even if she just landed with an F-Air and tried using F-Tilt. The grab itself comes out relatively early, but might come back in a bit slower than expecting, but it's still good once you get the grab on Sheik, especially if you read her F-Air right.

@ TriTails Link's attacks aren't actually "far too slow", they are of moderate speed and solid up close. Link's N-Air is an example of a solid attack Link has. And as for Link's projectiles, its called jumping backward (hopefully not off the ledge backwards) if Sheik is challenging you or trying to come up, then using the projectile. Otherwise, pull Link's 3213 moveset, then you'll have more speed on his projectiles to truly challenge Sheik.

To be completely fair, Link's got the tools to challenge Sheik and make it at least an even, and that's at the least. If people can utilize Link's tools to the best of their extent, and actually combo his projectiles into his regular attacks like you actually should, you can pull off the most absurd strings and combos out there. All of his projectiles are meant to set up for his regular attacks, and it's absurd what he can actually deal with them.

You guys have to agree 50:50 even would be a good MU count for Link v. Sheik.

 

[Ikes]

is dthrow to fair for samus not a true combo at most %?

 

[hypersonicJD]

Yeah. I think so. Samus doesn't really have a down thrown combo. Or even just a throw combo in general. You do have Dash, into Up air into Fair.

 

[Djent]

The new EVO brackets have been revised. There weren't many notable changes, except seed 10 is now...Shimitake, who's good but not that good. Abadango is now projected to fight Zero in quarters. I'm going to recommend they give the seeded spot to Rain, who is currently unseeded and also in the D-block.

 

[Nu~]

The new EVO brackets have been revised. There weren't many notable changes, except seed 10 is now...Shimitake, who's good but not that good. Abadango is now projected to fight Zero in quarters. I'm going to recommend they give the seeded spot to Rain, who is currently unseeded and also in the D-block.

What the ****?! Why does abadango have to fight ZeRo so early?

It would be amazing for Abadango take this, but I can't shake the feeling that Pac-Mains are going to have to wait until Apex 2016 for the world to see Pac-Man's potential...

 

[DungeonMaster]

is dthrow to fair for samus not a true combo at most %?

Samus can true combo d-throw into f-air, f-airx2, f-air+z-air, up-air, up-airx2, up-air+n-air, up-air+up-B, up-air+f-air, up-airx2+up-B, up-air + charge shot, b-air and n-air.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-complete-samus-combo-and-string-list.391853/
To land the fancier ones you need to starts with a few frames of dash. If someone hard DI's away you need to start with a few frames of dash to even land the simple f-air at mid-high %.
So long as you're using the correct combo for the percentage range, they're completely inescapable.

 

[Teshie U]

@ Teshie U Link's grab isn't actually that slow; his pivot grab and dash grab are slow, but not his normal grab. And I have no trouble grabbing Sheik, even if she just landed with an F-Air and tried using F-Tilt. The grab itself comes out relatively early, but might come back in a bit slower than expecting, but it's still good once you get the grab on Sheik, especially if you read her F-Air right.

@ TriTails Link's attacks aren't actually "far too slow", they are of moderate speed and solid up close. Link's N-Air is an example of a solid attack Link has. And as for Link's projectiles, its called jumping backward (hopefully not off the ledge backwards) if Sheik is challenging you or trying to come up, then using the projectile. Otherwise, pull Link's 3213 moveset, then you'll have more speed on his projectiles to truly challenge Sheik.

To be completely fair, Link's got the tools to challenge Sheik and make it at least an even, and that's at the least. If people can utilize Link's tools to the best of their extent, and actually combo his projectiles into his regular attacks like you actually should, you can pull off the most absurd strings and combos out there. All of his projectiles are meant to set up for his regular attacks, and it's absurd what he can actually deal with them.

You guys have to agree 50:50 even would be a good MU count for Link v. Sheik.

Sheik Fair is so safe that she only has to think about spacing fair vs the fastest grabs in the game really. I don't know the speed of link's grab, but I know all the tether go from about frame 9-17 for their startups. If Sheik was spaced out of her own range for some reason and tried to jab/ftilt when you weren't in range, you could scoop her up, but many normal grabs can do this as well.

Moderate startup speed IS too slow when you are fighting sheik.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Teshie U Link's grab isn't actually that slow; his pivot grab and dash grab are slow, but not his normal grab. And I have no trouble grabbing Sheik, even if she just landed with an F-Air and tried using F-Tilt. The grab itself comes out relatively early, but might come back in a bit slower than expecting, but it's still good once you get the grab on Sheik, especially if you read her F-Air right.

@ TriTails Link's attacks aren't actually "far too slow", they are of moderate speed and solid up close. Link's N-Air is an example of a solid attack Link has. And as for Link's projectiles, its called jumping backward (hopefully not off the ledge backwards) if Sheik is challenging you or trying to come up, then using the projectile. Otherwise, pull Link's 3213 moveset, then you'll have more speed on his projectiles to truly challenge Sheik.

To be completely fair, Link's got the tools to challenge Sheik and make it at least an even, and that's at the least. If people can utilize Link's tools to the best of their extent, and actually combo his projectiles into his regular attacks like you actually should, you can pull off the most absurd strings and combos out there. All of his projectiles are meant to set up for his regular attacks, and it's absurd what he can actually deal with them.

You guys have to agree 50:50 even would be a good MU count for Link v. Sheik.

Honestly like EVERYONE has to be super respectful of Link's grab right now. It's arguably one of the most powerful midrange tools in the game as things are right now, balanced by having punishable ending lag. But given the reward is justified, especially in matchups like Fox and Sheik, it's pretty seriously good.

I actually think Link may in fact beat Fox slightly. That matchup did a full heel turn ever since Link's grab nets him at minimum a free 20% and possibly more, plus KO confirms. He has so many more ways to end the stock than Fox does both on and offstage, and Link's grab alone is the one thing that lets him contest Fox's midrange. Pre-patch, Link got bodied at least 65/35 in this matchup when he got camped and could only respond with chip damage from N-airs and throws, and got punished really hard every time those whiffed. Now his grab punish is insanely threatening, especially since he can true combo D-throw U-air on Fox for the kill easily, or take advantage of Fox's relatively low horizontal air mobility to trap him into U-smash reliably.

I'm more doubtful Link cleanly beats Sheik mostly because she still has an edgeguard game, she doesn't get bodied by Link's D-throw to quite the same extreme as say Fox (it's still super strong on her), and Link's recovery is not very strong, but similarly Link's matchup against her pre-patch was insanely awful due to getting sniped a lot in midrange, and grab's range and reward buffs alone drastically improve the matchup and make it extremely competitive.

Sheik Fair is so safe that she only has to think about spacing fair vs the fastest grabs in the game really. I don't know the speed of link's grab, but I know all the tether go from about frame 9-17 for their startups. If Sheik was spaced out of her own range for some reason and tried to jab/ftilt when you weren't in range, you could scoop her up, but many normal grabs can do this as well.

Moderate startup speed IS too slow when you are fighting sheik.

Grab her landing instead. Sheik like everyone else HAS to be super respectful of the space Link can control with his grab. You usually shouldn't be aiming to shieldgrab as Link in general but rather using his grab to establish control in neutral, given it outranges EVERYTHING and in this game unlike Melee you can grab airborne opponents which is really scary. Plus Link's anti-airs are really scary unlike most tether grab users, so that's an option for him.

 

[NairWizard]

Just noticed the '+' and '-' on that list. Derp

So every buffed character besides went down.

Falco went up 7 spots (10 discounting DLC characters), and rightfully so. His buffs were incredible. Previously, I thought that MK was the biggest winner of the patch, but after having played him, Marth, and now Falco for the last couple of weeks, I think MK didn't gain quite as much as initial impressions led me to believe (jab and f-tilt aren't spammable moves), Marth is better but it's a tame amount of better (jab helps greatly in some MUs, others not so much), and Falco is just way, way, way way better. So props to that list for recognizing Falco's improvement, at least.

It's kind of funny on how Pit is the most balanced character than Mario in Smash 4. Mario is more of 'speedy weak guy' compared to Pit.

Speaking of Mario, what top tier does he beat?

Before the most recent balance patch, I was inclined to say Mario is top 4 or top 5. His matchup spread became frankly ridiculous after 1.0.6. Sonic's b-throw nerf and Diddy's nerfs in 1.0.6 made two of Mario's worst matchups much more tolerable; he has an even MU with both (and possibly even wins against Diddy because of that 1.0.8 up-air nerf, since now Mario doesn't have to worry about Diddy's anti-juggles quite as much).

imo: he's one of the few who can claim an even or close to even MU with Sheik, he goes even with or beats ZSS, Diddy, and Pikachu, goes even with Fox, Villager, Ness, Sonic, and Falcon, beats Yoshi and Wario, and does super well against random strong but not top tier characters like Olimar (random tools like Cape and FLUDD really help), and even further down the list. Random example because it occurs to me: @san. believed Mario to be Ike's worst MU prepatch (along with Luigi), though Ike's buffs have probably helped out there.

His only two really bad matchups against good characters are Rosalina and Luigi, both of which are tolerable, just difficult. Some lower-tiered characters may potentially give him trouble, such as DK, but it's not too bad in any case.

As of the most recent patch, though, Mario's life may have become rougher slightly with buffs to Falco, Greninja, Ike, Marth, Link, etc., but he is certainly no slouch. The character has all the tools necessary to succeed, and will continue to do so.

@ Teshie U Link's grab isn't actually that slow; his pivot grab and dash grab are slow, but not his normal grab. And I have no trouble grabbing Sheik, even if she just landed with an F-Air and tried using F-Tilt. The grab itself comes out relatively early, but might come back in a bit slower than expecting, but it's still good once you get the grab on Sheik, especially if you read her F-Air right.

@ TriTails Link's attacks aren't actually "far too slow", they are of moderate speed and solid up close. Link's N-Air is an example of a solid attack Link has. And as for Link's projectiles, its called jumping backward (hopefully not off the ledge backwards) if Sheik is challenging you or trying to come up, then using the projectile. Otherwise, pull Link's 3213 moveset, then you'll have more speed on his projectiles to truly challenge Sheik.

To be completely fair, Link's got the tools to challenge Sheik and make it at least an even, and that's at the least. If people can utilize Link's tools to the best of their extent, and actually combo his projectiles into his regular attacks like you actually should, you can pull off the most absurd strings and combos out there. All of his projectiles are meant to set up for his regular attacks, and it's absurd what he can actually deal with them.

You guys have to agree 50:50 even would be a good MU count for Link v. Sheik.

Radical Larry actually making a great post. This should not go unnoticed.

I still think Sheik beats Link, though; Link's close-range frame data isn't great, he really relies on having a Bomb out in order to contend with Sheik's tools at close range (Sheik can run up with shield like ZeRo demonstrated vs. Nairo).

 

[Browny]

So has anyone done anything with Ryu yet?

I don't see how he can be higher than mid tier for as long as his approach and defensive options are god-awful.

 

[Benmjy]

Palutena is still pretty low, hopefully someday soon she will get some more credit.

 

[Nu~]

Falco went up 7 spots (10 discounting DLC characters), and rightfully so. His buffs were incredible. Previously, I thought that MK was the biggest winner of the patch, but after having played him, Marth, and now Falco for the last couple of weeks, I think MK didn't gain quite as much as initial impressions led me to believe (jab and f-tilt aren't spammable moves), Marth is better but it's a tame amount of better (jab helps greatly in some MUs, others not so much), and Falco is just way, way, way way better. So props to that list for recognizing Falco's improvement, at least.




Before the most recent balance patch, I was inclined to say Mario is top 4 or top 5. His matchup spread became frankly ridiculous after 1.0.6. Sonic's b-throw nerf and Diddy's nerfs in 1.0.6 made two of Mario's worst matchups much more tolerable; he has an even MU with both (and possibly even wins against Diddy because of that 1.0.8 up-air nerf, since now Mario doesn't have to worry about Diddy's anti-juggles quite as much).

imo: he's one of the few who can claim an even or close to even MU with Sheik, he goes even with or beats ZSS, Diddy, and Pikachu, goes even with Fox, Villager, Ness, Sonic, and Falcon, beats Yoshi and Wario, and does super well against random strong but not top tier characters like Olimar (random tools like Cape and FLUDD really help), and even further down the list. Random example because it occurs to me: @san. believed Mario to be Ike's worst MU prepatch (along with Luigi), though Ike's buffs have probably helped out there.

His only two really bad matchups against good characters are Rosalina and Luigi, both of which are tolerable, just difficult. Some lower-tiered characters may potentially give him trouble, such as DK, but it's not too bad in any case.

As of the most recent patch, though, Mario's life may have become rougher slightly with buffs to Falco, Greninja, Ike, Marth, Link, etc., but he is certainly no slouch. The character has all the tools necessary to succeed, and will continue to do so.



Radical Larry actually making a great post. This should not go unnoticed.

I still think Sheik beats Link, though; Link's close-range frame data isn't great, he really relies on having a Bomb out in order to contend with Sheik's tools at close range (Sheik can run up with shield like ZeRo demonstrated vs. Nairo).

I'm not sure if Mario has an even matchup against a campy sonic...

He doesn't have many tools to catch sonic, and lacks a safe way to deal with spin dash outside of fire balls (that can either clank or get outprioritized)

Mario can't really "contain" him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So has anyone done anything with Ryu yet?

I don't see how he can be higher than mid tier for as long as his approach and defensive options are god-awful.

SolidSense won a tournament with Ryu. Also Ryu has good air mobility, a top tier dashgrab, and Hadoken is a good poke projectile. Plus his Fair is better than pre nerf Diddy's. Shoryuken is a 6 frame kill move around 110 that can be done out of shield and TSRK can be confirmed off light Utilt or Dtilt pressure to kill at 80%.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Slightly off topic (although still relevant to Mario), but I'm loving the matchup triangle with the plumbers as of now.

>
>
>

 

[NairWizard]

I'm not sure if Mario has an even matchup against a campy sonic...

He doesn't have many tools to catch sonic, and lacks a safe way to deal with spin dash outside of fire balls (that can either clank or get outprioritized)

Mario can't really "contain" him.

airspeed lets Mario contain Sonic just fine. He can jump forward and airdodge on reaction, and there's not much that Sonic can do once he's in spindash mode from there. jab is frame 2, n-air is frame 3, etc. Mario has the frame data to contend with Sonic with a good reaction time.

Whoever gets the first stock in this MU wins, just like in most of Sonic's MUs.

SolidSense won a tournament with Ryu. Also Ryu has good air mobility, a top tier dashgrab, and Hadoken is a good poke projectile. Plus his Fair is better than pre nerf Diddy's.

I'm not sure if I think highly of Ryu even after I won that tournament, though. I think I got by on some MU inexperience at the end. For example, I am having some trouble adjusting to Luigis who have adjusted to me. It's harder to play the neutral game with Ryu than it looks at first. Those top-tier CQC options really wish to be accompanied by some top-tier aerial control and ground speed. Actually, it's mostly that top tiers just have really dumb tools like ZSS/Luigi/Pikachu/Sheik. Ryu's too honest.

(P.S. I got close to dead last in a tournament with Marth this week, lol. Confirmed fraud)

 

[Emblem Lord]

So has anyone done anything with Ryu yet?

I don't see how he can be higher than mid tier for as long as his approach and defensive options are god-awful.

Ryu doesnt approach and If you hit Ryus shield with anything you will just ****ing die so idk if I can trust your concept of what awful is.

Also has he done anything?

Bruh you are too smart for this nonsense. It's going on week 3.

Chillax

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not sure if I think highly of Ryu even after I won that tournament, though. I think I got by on some MU inexperience at the end. For example, I am having some trouble adjusting to Luigis who have adjusted to me. It's harder to play the neutral game with Ryu than it looks at first. Those top-tier CQC options really wish to be accompanied by some top-tier aerial control and ground speed. Actually, it's mostly that top tiers just have really dumb tools like ZSS/Luigi/Pikachu/Sheik. Ryu's too honest.

(P.S. I got close to dead last in a tournament with Marth this week, lol. Confirmed fraud)

Ryu craps on Luigi in neutral imo, but loses in KO confirming meaning once he has the lead, he has to play lame.

I feel like I can take on anyone in neutral with Ryu when his 6 frame Fair alone forces matchups to be played a certain way, and dashgrab + 12 damage Bthrow are all great.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Theory

Mario has the best spread of matchups against Pika, Rosa, and Sheik in the game (excluding ones from the aforementioned trio) imo.

He is known to lose to:

He probably loses to:
By a slim margin

What else is bad for him? He seems to go even or beat and many feel that he givesthe most trouble.

I can imagine the following are very close to even, but someone who knows these matchups better might be able to give details:


Among other notable mus, he beats due to falcon's terrible disadvantaged stance, recovery, and surprisingly beatable approach options.

So, here in this meta-driving conglomerate, many users like to point out characters that they believe are slept on. Usually these are low to mid tier characters that are underrepresented. I wouldn't say mario falls into any of that. He is considered high tier by everyone and is very popular. This popularity tends to turn the plumber into an easy mode, easy local-level results character.

But you can't scoff at his mu spread.

Faring well against the top tier and many popular characters below, while going even with almost every remaining high tier (bar a few exceptions) is something no other character can boast unless you are Sheik.

Like Falcon, Mario is being played to appeal to the simple, pick-up-and-go style. This overshadows his true potential. It is simply being hidden or ignored.

The player utilizing most of mario's potential, Ally, is disregarding customs and playstyles that he doesn't like. For this reason, he might get spooked in bracket and lose at a local.

So this is a call to arms. Mario players, start taking names, because I believe the cover face of nintendo in his true form is hiding within this game, waiting to be uncovered through a mass of misrepresentation. The real character we are sleeping on is none other than the first character on the roster.

 

[Ikes]

Slightly off topic (although still relevant to Mario), but I'm loving the matchup triangle with the plumbers as of now.

>
>
>

the rock/paper/scissors of smash

 

[shadowmm151]

Theory

Mario has the best spread of matchups against Pika, Rosa, and Sheik in the game (excluding ones from the aforementioned trio) imo.

He is known to lose to:

He probably loses to:
By a slim margin

What else is bad for him? He seems to go even or beat and many feel that he givesthe most trouble.

I can imagine the following are very close to even, but someone who knows these matchups better might be able to give details:


Among other notable mus, he beats due to falcon's terrible disadvantaged stance, recovery, and surprisingly beatable approach options.

So, here in this meta-driving conglomerate, many users like to point out characters that they believe are slept on. Usually these are low to mid tier characters that are underrepresented. I wouldn't say mario falls into any of that. He is considered high tier by everyone and is very popular. This popularity tends to turn the plumber into an easy mode, easy local-level results character.

But you can't scoff at his mu spread.

Faring well against the top tier and many popular characters below, while going even with almost every remaining high tier (bar a few exceptions) is something no other character can boast unless you are Sheik.

Like Falcon, Mario is being played to appeal to the simple, pick-up-and-go style. This overshadows his true potential. It is simply being hidden or ignored.

The player utilizing most of mario's potential, Ally, is disregarding customs and playstyles that he doesn't like. For this reason, he might get spooked in bracket and lose at a local.

So this is a call to arms. Mario players, start taking names, because I believe the cover face of nintendo in his true form is hiding within this game, waiting to be uncovered through a mass of misrepresentation. The real character we are sleeping on is none other than the first character on the roster.

You forgot to mention that since Mario plays similarly to Diddy that a lot of old Diddy players might be jumping ship out of this patch. Personally, I still think Diddy has strong tools to keep him in top 15 definitely, most likely top 10 (AKA bananas). That being said, I feel Mario is the better choice now after the nerfs. Some characters just play a certain style better than other characters. Sheik > Greninja and IMO Falcon > Roy...Mario falls in the same category now. Thoughts?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Diddy is still strong, just isn't easy and simple to use anymore. The nerfs emphasize the importance of his banana now, which I believe have more room to grow in the future, and then there's NAir and FTilt that are pretty underutilized. Definitely excited to see where this character goes in the future

I still think he's a solid top 10. Bananas just give him too much versatility. He can switch from being an aggressive monster to a defensive mid range beast once he has a banana at hand with decent, but highly consistent rewards.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Whenever I see people play in tournament (or in general), they don't seem to take advantage of his Fair's IASA frames. I think people underestimate it, and I believe Roy's Fair is a safer approach option than his Nair.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, approaching with a short hop Fair and fading back with a double jump is a pretty low-commitment option. Or I can approach with a short hop Fair and immediately use Side B to stuff the opponent's attempt at a punish. I think mastering his Fair's IASA frames is going to be the next step in developing Roy's metagame.