Character Competitive Impressions

[RonNewcomb]

@Teshie U Link's grab isn't actually that slow; his pivot grab and dash grab are slow, but not his normal grab. And I have no trouble grabbing Sheik, even if she just landed with an F-Air and tried using F-Tilt. The grab itself comes out relatively early, but might come back in a bit slower than expecting, but it's still good once you get the grab on Sheik, especially if you read her F-Air right.

@ TriTails Link's attacks aren't actually "far too slow", they are of moderate speed and solid up close. Link's N-Air is an example of a solid attack Link has. And as for Link's projectiles, its called jumping backward (hopefully not off the ledge backwards) if Sheik is challenging you or trying to come up, then using the projectile. Otherwise, pull Link's 3213 moveset, then you'll have more speed on his projectiles to truly challenge Sheik.

To be completely fair, Link's got the tools to challenge Sheik and make it at least an even, and that's at the least. If people can utilize Link's tools to the best of their extent, and actually combo his projectiles into his regular attacks like you actually should, you can pull off the most absurd strings and combos out there. All of his projectiles are meant to set up for his regular attacks, and it's absurd what he can actually deal with them.

You guys have to agree 50:50 even would be a good MU count for Link v. Sheik.

Although I agree that the Sheik MU improved for Link post-1.0.8, pretty much all of Link's MUs improved post-1.0.8 because shielding isn't a near-perfect escape by the whole cast anymore. But I don't the Sheik MU went all the way from 30:70 to 60:40 or even 50:50. Sheik approaches from the air a lot, above where the grab can connect. Basically everything A2ZOMG said.

I also disagree on 3213; quickfire arrows and The Boomerang are obvious choices of course, but I think Meteor Bombs are the pretty much the worst choice of bomb here. Sheik recovers from normals fast enough that catching our bombs is certainly a thing, and a MB in her hands is a terrible thing for Link. It's not like Link can't spike with Dair given the chance, or that MB would catch her up-B when she's invisible. And when Sheik's Fair train drops off Link at the last stop before the blastzone, he can't make it back without a bombjump. I'll even go Radical and say this is the MU for Giant Bombs, specifically because they don't explode on impact: catching them and throwing them back does nothing. Link can time the toss so they explode en-route, with a bigger hitbox, and in the event both are caught in the explosion, she can't tank damage like he can. (If you like MBs because of some on-stage combos you can do, well, that's what grab does.)

Regarding Fox, I can see that MU swinging from strongly in Fox's favor to maaaybe a bit in Link's favor. Not only did 1.0.8 give Link a grab game that reaches far past his sword where rushdown characters like to wait for a punish, and a throw game that makes Fox combo-food for Link with resultant landing traps afterward with that awesome Uair, and all three hits of Usmash connect reliably on even incidental hits (which happen a lot with trying to swat speedy rushdown types), and all three hits of jab connect more reliably so Fox can't just hop out and Goomba-stop Link in cooldown off the whiff, but a few more patches ago Hylian Sheild started blocking Fox lasers: Fox can't force an approach. And compared to Melee, the one good thing about Gale Boomerang is that it can be beneficial to Link even when reflected: there's only a windbox post-reflection, so in the ground game it helps Link build space between them for another bomb pull.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ A2ZOMG I do agree about the post with catching Sheik's landing. That's what I was actually trying to get at; kind of slipped my mind, but thanks dude. Also, people need to really respect Link's grab for another reason: B-Throw > D-Air meteor is a big thing now, and it sucks to get hit by it.

@ NairWizard Every character can run and block Link's bombs (slower characters do it better, though), but it takes a skilled Link player to try a little mind game by throwing the bombs and using an aerial (whether you catch the bomb is up to you) or a grab. When Sheik or an opponent shields Link's bombs in close range, Link's got that few frames of golden opportunity to take and punish the opponent with his grab, just as with his Gale Boomerang, too.

Mind games and reading the opponent is what you need with Link's bombs.

@ RonNewcomb I do agree that meteor bombs might be a disadvantage to Link if the Sheik was both on stage and had enough time to throw them, but likely chance is, is that Sheik won't have enough time to throw far enough or even throw the bombs, since they detonate faster than vanilla. Plus, do not forget that Vanish isn't Sheik's only recovery method; Bouncing Fish is one. And if Link reads the opponent right, boom, there went Sheik with a meteor, and if she still survives, Link can still edge-guard her. Meteor bombs are on the if and if for Link on the Sheik MU. But Big Bombs might work as well, you can still set up to them if needed, with N-Air.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Theory

Mario has the best spread of matchups against Pika, Rosa, and Sheik in the game (excluding ones from the aforementioned trio) imo.

He is known to lose to:

He probably loses to:
By a slim margin

What else is bad for him? He seems to go even or beat and many feel that he givesthe most trouble.

I can imagine the following are very close to even, but someone who knows these matchups better might be able to give details:


Among other notable mus, he beats due to falcon's terrible disadvantaged stance, recovery, and surprisingly beatable approach options.

So, here in this meta-driving conglomerate, many users like to point out characters that they believe are slept on. Usually these are low to mid tier characters that are underrepresented. I wouldn't say mario falls into any of that. He is considered high tier by everyone and is very popular. This popularity tends to turn the plumber into an easy mode, easy local-level results character.

But you can't scoff at his mu spread.

Faring well against the top tier and many popular characters below, while going even with almost every remaining high tier (bar a few exceptions) is something no other character can boast unless you are Sheik.

Like Falcon, Mario is being played to appeal to the simple, pick-up-and-go style. This overshadows his true potential. It is simply being hidden or ignored.

The player utilizing most of mario's potential, Ally, is disregarding customs and playstyles that he doesn't like. For this reason, he might get spooked in bracket and lose at a local.

So this is a call to arms. Mario players, start taking names, because I believe the cover face of nintendo in his true form is hiding within this game, waiting to be uncovered through a mass of misrepresentation. The real character we are sleeping on is none other than the first character on the roster.

vs is for the most part an even matchup. Fox generally has better approach options with aerial side b/RAR bair/dash attack etc, faster then mario, and can setup kills against mario. However Fox can't combo mario since mario can nair out of up tilt and can up b out of foxes jab cancel combos. mario also can edgeguard fox pretty easily because of his predictable recovery, while fox can't due much against mario offstage other then nair that is if mario's even stupid enough to fall for it, and mario can also pretty much combo fox to hell once mario get's his hands on him. However onstage mario basically has to rely on reads to get a kill on fox.

Fox is basically gonna have to play a more defensive game against Mario instead of playing rushdown relying on his speed and footsies like he never has before. While mario basically has to bait out fox until he makes a mistake and goes in for the down throw up tilt shenanigans

Hope this helped

 

[TriTails]

Mobility can make a character go far in this game.

Proven by thy mascot of Nintendo.

 

[bc1910]

You forgot to mention that since Mario plays similarly to Diddy that a lot of old Diddy players might be jumping ship out of this patch. Personally, I still think Diddy has strong tools to keep him in top 15 definitely, most likely top 10 (AKA bananas). That being said, I feel Mario is the better choice now after the nerfs. Some characters just play a certain style better than other characters. Sheik > Greninja and IMO Falcon > Roy...Mario falls in the same category now. Thoughts?

For the billionth time, Sheik and Greninja play nothing alike. This should not require any explanation.

Falcon and Roy are also less similar than people like to suggest, though the comparison is stronger. But Roy's juggle game is different, his trap game is different (better), his optimal spacing and footsies tools are COMPLETELY different, and his edgeguarding is different, especially once an opponent has reached the ledge.

 

[DunnoBro]

IMO mario is only GOOD vs Sheik on Dreamland, BF, and maybe other similarly aggressively paced CPs. Her safety is neutered hard and combos go on forever. On Smashville or T&C it's even or slightly her favor. (probably her favor on FD)

Whenever I see people play in tournament (or in general), they don't seem to take advantage of his Fair's IASA frames. I think people underestimate it, and I believe Roy's Fair is a safer approach option than his Nair.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, approaching with a short hop Fair and fading back with a double jump is a pretty low-commitment option. Or I can approach with a short hop Fair and immediately use Side B to stuff the opponent's attempt at a punish. I think mastering his Fair's IASA frames is going to be the next step in developing Roy's metagame.

Since you can only use the IASA during a certain time, this means the fair is only an approach option in pretty specific situations. (I.e the opponent just far enough from where roy is currently) Furthermore, with no catch-all safety aerials to land with, roy just jumping away REALLY isn't that safe.

The IASA frames on fair don't really help much except for catching landings/rolls, it isn't as good or reliable an approach option as nair usually. Roy's approach options are just bad.

 

[TriTails]

Roy's approach options are just bad.

Now that I think about it. What character that does well on approaches? I can only think Sheik, maybe Pac-Man and his Hydrant shenanigans, perhaps Sonic because his dashing speed is 1.2 faster than Falcon (Isn't that like, Jigglypuff vs Falcon dashing speed gap?) and is hard to react with average reaction time.

But I think the general approaches are stronger in this game due to shields and rolls. Most characters can approach just fine with run to shields, shorthops, and rolls when neccesary. Especially since most characters' mobility are buffed in this game (Lol ).

 

[Ikes]

anyone else think Miiverse is an objectively better stage than Battlefield? Offstage/Under the stage game is similar to smashville due to the shape of the base platform, the floating platforms have no horizontal space between them so falling from the ledge of the top middle platform will land you on the side platforms, making the platform more simple and logical, as well as the platforms being marginally wider, and theres no offstage jank, since battlefield has a weird janky underside but Smashville/Miiverse dont have this, not to mention Battlefield's underside is asymmetrical.

It really seems like the perfect mix of Smashville and Battlefield. I think Miiverse should replace Battlefield in tournaments honestly (though obviously Battlefield should still be a stage option)

 

[warionumbah2]

(jab and f-tilt aren't spammable moves)

I love how his buffed moves arent spammable, skill barrier is still intact.

You play MK yet you mention the crappy ftilt buff over the landing reduction on Nair.The only big thing MK got was jab and landing reduction on Nair which opens up harder hitting combo's being able to break 50% off one throw.

His buffs are a luxury but some matchups(mainly his bad ones) become much more manageable thanks to the jab and nair buff. You were indeed along with others overblowing his buffs(especially ftilt like I never smh so hard), he's still bottom tier but after this patch its more of a solid position than pre patch.

 

[Shaya]

MK players are generally too focused on dashing in, rarely thinking about dashing away/pivot ftilts or his pivot game much at all.
Ftilt buffs weren't ridiculous, but they're definitely helpful for traps.

Dashing through people is becoming a more acceptable offensive choice and while MK would still look for pivot grabs, strong players have good "brawl" muscle memory for spot dodge buffered turn arounds (which gives you punishes on both his dash attack and dash through pivot grab) but forward tilt is ALL over that.

Nair buffs are obviously good and notable to the players, but buffs to ftilt and jab increased his capabilities because they were almost unusable moves before hand. Ftilt has a spacing and timing focus and those are skills not heavily attributed to MK in this game thus far, but now somewhat is.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

It really seems like the perfect mix of Smashville and Battlefield. I think Miiverse should replace Battlefield in tournaments honestly (though obviously Battlefield should still be a stage option)

A few proposed the idea of miiverse being a starter and battlefield being a counter pick due to it's janky ledges I think this could work except for the fact that outside of ledges the stages are identical in layout so I slightly feel that miiverse should completely replace it since it's literally just "better battlefield" unlike dreamland which has whispy as well as a slightly smaller ceiling .

 

[Ikes]

MK players are always too focused on dashing in they never think about dashing away/pivot ftilts or his pivot game much at all.
Ftilt buffs weren't ridiculous, but they're definitely helpful for traps.

Dashing through people is becoming a more acceptable offensive choice and while MK would still look for pivot grabs, strong players have good "brawl" muscle memory for spot dodge buffered turn arounds (which gives you punishes on both his dash attack and dash through pivot grab) but forward tilt is ALL over that.

Nair buffs are obviously good and notable to the players, but buffs to ftilt and jab increased his capabilities because they were almost unusable moves before hand. Ftilt has a spacing and timing focus and those are skills not heavily attributed to MK in this game thus far, but now somewhat is.

isnt his ftilt effectively a mini dancing blade?

 

[Speed Boost]

MK players are always too focused on dashing in they never think about dashing away/pivot ftilts or his pivot game much at all.
Ftilt buffs weren't ridiculous, but they're definitely helpful for traps.

Dashing through people is becoming a more acceptable offensive choice and while MK would still look for pivot grabs, strong players have good "brawl" muscle memory for spot dodge buffered turn arounds (which gives you punishes on both his dash attack and dash through pivot grab) but forward tilt is ALL over that.

Nair buffs are obviously good and notable to the players, but buffs to ftilt and jab increased his capabilities because they were almost unusable moves before hand. Ftilt has a spacing and timing focus and those are skills not heavily attributed to MK in this game thus far, but now somewhat is.

Yeah, I feel that pivot FTilt is a strong option in this game with a lot of characters. In both a run past shield/spotdodge situations and in a retreat to catch roll behind/dash approach options. I find myself using it a lot with Pit, who has a great FTilt. I could definately see this working similarly in MK neutral game. It's a safe options that can get you to an advantaged state without much risk of being punished.

 

[TriTails]

Run past shields are way more effective with fast characters. I don't see anyone with dashing speed value under 2.0 doing that without some difficulties.

That said. Falcon's run past shield + Raptor Boost is insane when most players' mindset is 'drop shield after a brief period of time' or 'spotdodge when they come'.

I think people need to counter dashing with jumping more effectively. I can see SH Mario B-air works against run past opponents and Mario can follow up with a DA afterwards (B-air + Land + something is really gud on characters like Sheik), or jumping over a dashgrab and then retaliating, unless your opponent is named Falcon.

isnt his ftilt effectively a mini dancing blade?

More like MK's F-tilt is his gentleman while his actual jab is an infinite jab.

 

[bc1910]

I'm not sure if I think highly of Ryu even after I won that tournament, though. I think I got by on some MU inexperience at the end. For example, I am having some trouble adjusting to Luigis who have adjusted to me. It's harder to play the neutral game with Ryu than it looks at first. Those top-tier CQC options really wish to be accompanied by some top-tier aerial control and ground speed. Actually, it's mostly that top tiers just have really dumb tools like ZSS/Luigi/Pikachu/Sheik. Ryu's too honest.

(P.S. I got close to dead last in a tournament with Marth this week, lol. Confirmed fraud)

I've been using Ryu a bit myself lately (mostly to get my money's worth, to be honest; I'm not nterested in maining him) and I had similar observations. Ryu's neutral game is quite complex, his CQC is ridiculous but he doesn't get to flex his muscle in that area as much as you might think. His range issues on his safe moves and combo starters do actually matter, as does the fact that he's really punishable on block no matter what he hits you with. His approach isn't amazing; he can stalemate projectiles by powershielding like every character and he's not especially weak to them, it's just that his approaching options... are a bit limited. And he really needs to get in to be threatening. Hadoken is a lovely poke though.

His grab game is much better than I thought. I don't think his dash grab is top tier (not while nonsense like Falcon, Luigi, Greninja and MK dash grabs exist) but it is very good, better than most, and pummel + back throw deals solid damage, about as much as most characters get from Dthrow > followup.

However, he suffers from the same killing issues as Fox in that not only is shield camping tough to deal with, every extra bit of damage he tacks on doesn't really benefit him. Like, he can end you with Fsmash and TSRK whenever, but his other moves don't really start killing as he keeps piling on damage with his safe stuff. Bair finally submits and starts killing around 140% centre-stage, but it's no easier to land than his other kill moves. His kill confirms into TSRK work from 0% (light Utilt + Dtilt, FA) and are only marginally easier to hit with than the raw kill moves. His throws don't kill until really late, around the 190% mark for Dthrow, although rage helps. If you don't respect Ryu he will end you at 90, if you don't respect his shield he will end you at ~110 with SRK OoS, but if you do respect him I don't think he can force the situations where he can kill you very easily.

Ryu is indeed too honest to be top tier IMO. I think I overhyped him at first. He is high tier, and has some insane options, but they are balanced by actual important flaws. In this game, the top tiers tend not to have flaws that matter, with the exception of ZSS who is so overtuned on everything else that her terrible grab doesn't hold her back from top 5.

 

[Minordeth]

I'm going to parrot Emblem Lord here, and go with the idea that Ryu doesn't approach. I'll parrot him further and say that Ryu exists in two different fighting game styles at once - both the traditional 2D fighter, and Smash. I'm finally giving Ryu a real shot, but honestly, he takes a LOT of lab work to even get working correctly, and his MU spread is nowhere near comprehensible. I can't count how many times I go to the lab, then into FG, then back to the lab to figure him out.

He really is fantastic at controlling space, rather than approaching. I've found it effective to establish actual zones that Ryu has to control and pressure from, rather than approach from neutral or something. I mean, he does have kill-confirms. All of his weak tilts confirm into TSRK. I mean, weak utilt, jab, dtilt into TSRK is a thing that kills people. Plus he has the ability to mess with momentum based characters by virtue of his FADC.

That's not even to mention the negative edge trickery that he can pull off as well, which isn't really being explored yet, afaik.

I think most of his problems will come from characters that have more multi-hit options that can more or less nullify FA shenanigans. For that matter, I think say, D3 and Falco are harder for Ryu to deal with than Captain Falcon or ZSS.

 

[Ikes]

I'm going to parrot Emblem Lord here, and go with the idea that Ryu doesn't approach. I'll parrot him further and say that Ryu exists in two different fighting game styles at once - both the traditional 2D fighter, and Smash. I'm finally giving Ryu a real shot, but honestly, he takes a LOT of lab work to even get working correctly, and his MU spread is nowhere near comprehensible. I can't count how many times I go to the lab, then into FG, then back to the lab to figure him out.

He really is fantastic at controlling space, rather than approaching. I've found it effective to establish actual zones that Ryu has to control and pressure from, rather than approach from neutral or something. I mean, he does have kill-confirms. All of his weak tilts confirm into TSRK. I mean, weak utilt, jab, dtilt into TSRK is a thing that kills people. Plus he has the ability to mess with momentum based characters by virtue of his FADC.

That's not even to mention the negative edge trickery that he can pull off as well, which isn't really being explored yet, afaik.

I think most of his problems will come from characters that have more multi-hit options that can more or less nullify FA shenanigans. For that matter, I think say, D3 and Falco are harder for Ryu to deal with than Captain Falcon or ZSS.

Since Ryu was put in the game cause Sakurai was a comp Street Fighter player, does he main Ryu now? It would make sense.

 

[Luco]

What is TSRK and FADC? I got Ryu quite late so at first I never really payed attention to his techy stuff. I hear this stuff about TSRK killing peeps at 80% and think 'geez that sounds really scary'. Ryu's mobility and approach options seem poor to me against characters that don't care about him controlling space with Hadouken.

Mind you this is just preliminary thoughts from me, because I haven't experienced a good Ryu player yet and I'm full aware his meta needs time to develop (what with having like twice - three times the amount of unique moves that every other character has), but I'd like to know what Ryu does to control space against stuff like GP, PSI Magnet, Shine and other very quick moves that nullify Hadouken. None of his stuff seems safe on block in footsies to me... I don't know.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm going to parrot Emblem Lord here, and go with the idea that Ryu doesn't approach. I'll parrot him further and say that Ryu exists in two different fighting game styles at once - both the traditional 2D fighter, and Smash. I'm finally giving Ryu a real shot, but honestly, he takes a LOT of lab work to even get working correctly, and his MU spread is nowhere near comprehensible. I can't count how many times I go to the lab, then into FG, then back to the lab to figure him out.

He really is fantastic at controlling space, rather than approaching. I've found it effective to establish actual zones that Ryu has to control and pressure from, rather than approach from neutral or something. I mean, he does have kill-confirms. All of his weak tilts confirm into TSRK. I mean, weak utilt, jab, dtilt into TSRK is a thing that kills people. Plus he has the ability to mess with momentum based characters by virtue of his FADC.

That's not even to mention the negative edge trickery that he can pull off as well, which isn't really being explored yet, afaik.

I think most of his problems will come from characters that have more multi-hit options that can more or less nullify FA shenanigans. For that matter, I think say, D3 and Falco are harder for Ryu to deal with than Captain Falcon or ZSS.

Negative Edge is garbage on Ryu. Does more harm to his combo game than good because it only counts as a light input for EX specials.

What is TSRK and FADC? I got Ryu quite late so at first I never really payed attention to his techy stuff. I hear this stuff about TSRK killing peeps at 80% and think 'geez that sounds really scary'. Ryu's mobility and approach options seem poor to me against characters that don't care about him controlling space with Hadouken.

Mind you this is just preliminary thoughts from me, because I haven't experienced a good Ryu player yet and I'm full aware his meta needs time to develop (what with having like twice - three times the amount of unique moves that every other character has), but I'd like to know what Ryu does to control space against stuff like GP, PSI Magnet, Shine and other very quick moves that nullify it.

TSRK = True Shoryuken. Doing the Forward Down Diagonal motion for SRK.

FADC = Focus Attack Dash Cancel. Self explanatory.

And Ryu's primary space control tools aside from Hadoken are his INSANE 6 FRAME 15% F-AIR THAT LINGERS FOREVER, his 8 frame B-air which has about the same range as Ganon's, his 8 frame disjointed dashgrab, and his above average airspeed + aerial FADC shenanigans to rapidly change his momentum on demand. Let's also keep in mind his F-smash has the same range as Mac's, and Heavy Jab and D-smash are also pretty huge and disjointed. Ryu is pretty noticeably above average in neutral.

 

[Speed Boost]

A few proposed the idea of miiverse being a starter and battlefield being a counter pick due to it's janky ledges I think this could work except for the fact that outside of ledges the stages are identical in layout so I slightly feel that miiverse should completely replace it since it's literally just "better battlefield" unlike dreamland which has whispy as well as a slightly smaller ceiling .

I feel like Miiverse should be excluded because it requires being connected to the internet and it is redundant. I have a reliable internet connection and sometimes Miiverse is not selectable. In local Smash the Wii U won't just connect to the internet for Miiverse if it hasn't already connected for some other reason. In a tournament setting there is no telling wether each setup will have internet access.

Battlefield and Dreamland are similar layouts to Miiverse. With three such stages it's impossible to prevent your opponent from going to one of them with their counterpick. I like the Idea of having Battlefield as the starter and Dreamland as a counterpick because of the wind.

I'm very happy that we have another viable tournament stage with tiered platforms though.

 

[meleebrawler]

I feel like Miiverse should be excluded because it requires being connected to the internet and it is redundant. I have a reliable internet connection and sometimes Miiverse is not selectable. In local Smash the Wii U won't just connect to the internet for Miiverse if it hasn't already connected for some other reason. In a tournament setting there is no telling wether each setup will have internet access.

Battlefield and Dreamland are similar layouts to Miiverse. With three such stages it's impossible to prevent your opponent from going to one of them with their counterpick. I like the Idea of having Battlefield as the starter and Dreamland as a counterpick because of the wind.

I'm very happy that we have another viable tournament stage with tiered platforms though.

You don't need to be on the internet to play Miiverse, heck it lets you play on that stage without distracting messages.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I feel like Miiverse should be excluded because it requires being connected to the internet and it is redundant. I have a reliable internet connection and sometimes Miiverse is not selectable. In local Smash the Wii U won't just connect to the internet for Miiverse if it hasn't already connected for some other reason. In a tournament setting there is no telling wether each setup will have internet access.

Battlefield and Dreamland are similar layouts to Miiverse. With three such stages it's impossible to prevent your opponent from going to one of them with their counterpick. I like the Idea of having Battlefield as the starter and Dreamland as a counterpick because of the wind.

I'm very happy that we have another viable tournament stage with tiered platforms though.

What if you were to have BF/Miiverse similar to the whole FD/Omega stage strike thing?

So if you were to ban Battlefield pre-game, you ban Miiverse as well.

Would that be a plausible alternative for the people who like the Miiverse stage?

 

[DunnoBro]

Now that I think about it. What character that does well on approaches?.

Not a large chunk of the cast does, but they have good mix-up games to compensate. Roy doesn't, and while his inherent mobility is good... His moves are slow with subpar coverage mostly.

See: Luigi, or ness. Mobility isn't that great, but attack speed and overall safeness is high.

 

[Speed Boost]

You don't need to be on the internet to play Miiverse, heck it lets you play on that stage without distracting messages.

Really, how do you do that? It wont let me select it unless I'm connected.

What if you were to have BF/Miiverse similar to the whole FD/Omega stage strike thing?

So if you were to ban Battlefield pre-game, you ban Miiverse as well.

Would that be a plausible alternative for the people who like the Miiverse stage?

Yeah, that sounds like a good alternative. I like that

 

[Noso]

Yeah, I feel like CEO did a lot for peoples' perspective on the Diddy nerf. If you watched any of Zero and MVD in Top 32 it was easy to see he still has a top tier neutral and is far from Sheik when it comes to killing.

That's true, but when it comes to watching a Diddy kong match now, it's actually interesting. pre nerfs if you said "this match is going to end with a hoohah", 95% of the time you'd be right. now it's interesting to see the set ups and new tech that people have to learn to get kills with him. Dat MVD barrell kill btw, I've never rooted for diddy in my life until that point.

 

[Wintropy]

My local scene actually has an Omega rule in place for Battlefield / Miiverse. It ensures people can't pull a fast one and circumvent a Battlefield ban by proxy. I'm gonna go ahead and presume Dream Land 64 isn't invoked in this rule, due to the intervention of Whispy Woods as an environmental element?

I'm gonna swallow my pride and ask, as it was brought up earlier and we're currently debating it over at the Palutena boards: does Default!Palutena have a future? There's a lot of disparaging remarks being made about her underwhelming toolkit and meager representation at tourneys, and I'm wondering what that will mean for her metagame. I think she's got potential, though with the western metagame essentially living and dying with Aerolink, I'm worried she'll quickly stagnate and people will lose faith in her potential.

She's definitely not as underwhelming as she was (the minor buffs to her f-tilt and u-tilt are at least nominal improvements), though she still struggles against most of the top-tiers (or, hell, any halfway competent rushdown fighter), doesn't really do anything that other characters don't do with better results (having an ultra-defensive default toolkit doesn't exactly help in this regard), and she kinda relies on hard reads and setups that...really don't amount to much, most of the time. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm wondering if she really has anything to keep her afloat in the competitive scene.

Is there hope for Palutena? I'm sticking with her either way, I'm just wondering what consensus opinion is.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

My local scene actually has an Omega rule in place for Battlefield / Miiverse. It ensures people can't pull a fast one and circumvent a Battlefield ban by proxy. I'm gonna go ahead and presume Dream Land 64 isn't invoked in this rule, due to the intervention of Whispy Woods as an environmental element?

I'm gonna swallow my pride and ask, as it was brought up earlier and we're currently debating it over at the Palutena boards: does Default!Palutena have a future? There's a lot of disparaging remarks being made about her underwhelming toolkit and meager representation at tourneys, and I'm wondering what that will mean for her metagame. I think she's got potential, though with the western metagame essentially living and dying with Aerolink, I'm worried she'll quickly stagnate and people will lose faith in her potential.

She's definitely not as underwhelming as she was (the minor buffs to her f-tilt and u-tilt are at least nominal improvements), though she still struggles against most of the top-tiers (or, hell, any halfway competent rushdown fighter), doesn't really do anything that other characters don't do with better results (having an ultra-defensive default toolkit doesn't exactly help in this regard), and she kinda relies on hard reads and setups that...really don't amount to much, most of the time. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm wondering if she really has anything to keep her afloat in the competitive scene.

Is there hope for Palutena? I'm sticking with her either way, I'm just wondering what consensus opinion is.

Honestly, she doesn't. Her tilts and specials are basically all trash, and her aerials are only decent. Her pivot grab is good but standard and dash grab aren't, making the Halle-hoo hah hard to get. I doubt she will break mid tier.

CUSTOM Palutena on the other hand...

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is what it comes down too.

Can she consistently beat top tiers with her default moveset?

Answer that question and you have your answer.

 

[Wintropy]

Honestly, she doesn't. Her tilts and specials are basically all trash, and her aerials are only decent. Her pivot grab is good but standard and dash grab aren't, making the Halle-hoo hah hard to get. I doubt she will break mid tier.

CUSTOM Palutena on the other hand...

I often find myself wishing there was an option to turn off tilts when I'm playing Pally. Her d-tilt is situational but has its uses, u-tilt has very minor applications, f-tilt is just a liability. You're basically taunting with a hitbox.

The slow grab definitely hampers her game plan, no arguments here. She has a ton of options off a d-throw, it's just getting to that stage that's the issue. I think her aerials are definitely among her best tools, but with the exception of u-air and b-air (both of which are difficult to land reliably), she doesn't really have any kill options. Considering she all but relies on d-throw -> aerial setups to get the kill, that doesn't do Pally any favours.

Custom!Pally is definitely a whole 'nother matter, but I don't want to rely on a contingency to get results. I'd rather put the effort in with default just to make sure I'm good either way.

This is what it comes down too.

Can she consistently beat top tiers with her default moveset?

Answer that question and you have your answer.

Exactly my point.

I think we all know the answer to that.

 

[bc1910]

It's not fair to say she doesn't have a future, but it's not looking good. Most of her normals seem really undertuned; Bair and dash attack are stellar, jab is great, and standing grab and Uair are quite good, but all the others seem pretty weak to make up for it. She also gets no help from her specials as she probably has the worst default set of specials in the game, Warp is the only good move and it's got limited offensive purpose.

She struggles a lot to rack up damage and kill. Of all the lower tier characters it's the easiest for me to see why she's low tier, even though she's not necessarily the worst.

 

[Ikes]

Toon link vs Pikachu -- Even matchup??

 

[NairWizard]

I love how his buffed moves arent spammable, skill barrier is still intact.

You play MK yet you mention the crappy ftilt buff over the landing reduction on Nair.The only big thing MK got was jab and landing reduction on Nair which opens up harder hitting combo's being able to break 50% off one throw.

His buffs are a luxury but some matchups(mainly his bad ones) become much more manageable thanks to the jab and nair buff. You were indeed along with others overblowing his buffs(especially ftilt like I never smh so hard), he's still bottom tier but after this patch its more of a solid position than pre patch.

I play pretty much every good character in this game. A wide variety of experiences playing the field helps to compete against those same characters. I don't necessarily specialize in MK, though I've probably put more time into him than into most of the non-top-5.

Normally I don't try to debate in this thread too much, but I will say that the f-tilt buff is good imo, even though it could be better. It's a versatile move since there are three strikes in it (see Shaya's post about beating spotdodges for instance, it's a safe mixup from pivot), and you can turn around immediately after it unlike d-tilt (d-tilts lock you into the crouching position if you hold back after they end in this game; I'm not sure how many frames it is before you can act, though), so it's slightly better against roll: using f-tilt gives you the ability to just turn around and grab with more lenient timing, and MK's grab reward is pretty high at most percents.

another thing is, with MK's 0.99 airspeed (and other air params), characters with fast walking acceleration or crawls could usually be really safe against his multi-jump strategy. I know because I play Pikachu, and I never really had a reason to fear MK when he was above me (up-air cuts through d-air camping, as an added bonus); just wait for him to land and then use my kit of close-range options. I have way more reason to fear it now though; when he lands just holding A is actually a good option in terms of risk:reward, and f-tilt1/2/3 can be a mixup on that as well. Before, it was really just d-tilt pressure or grab up close.

If MK's close-range game were to be made even better, like if you gave him back the Brawl IASA frames on his f-tilt, he'd be pretty dang OP. Patch was a step toward that, but didn't do quite enough.

and yeah, n-air is obviously good. Just not too interested in better combo damage on a character that already oozes damage output and kill confirms. MK's biggest area for improvement is the neutral; he doesn't have a dumb neutral like the (other?) top tiers, despite his terrifying midrange mixup of dash attack/dash grab.

 

[Nu~]

Toon link vs Pikachu -- Even matchup??

Explanation please?

 

[warionumbah2]

Still think ftilt is overrated(the most insignificant buff he got), I have yet to see this move be implemented into his game plan other than a quick get off me move during the moment,sending Luma off stage better due to angle adjustments or something to throw out when walking. Pivot ftilt away from the opponent is garbage you won't stop any approaches with that, pivot ftilt past someone isn't very rewarding despite MK putting himself in so much danger by running at someone head on.

Your telling me I should attempt this against marth, ike, luigi, ness, gdorf, sheik, falcon, fox ect and not expect to get hit by a move or die? Im good, ftilt 1 and 2 is an ok mixup against floaty characters as it can set up a dash grab or shuttle loop but this isn't needed.

MK just isn't fast enough to make this 'run past someone and throw a move' work he isn't falcon or fox, the risk is too high and the reward is pitiful. The reason some MK users adored ftilt was because our jab was garbage, now its a move that isn't worth using. Jab comes out on the same frame, better range, deals more damage especially on fast fallers, covers every get up option besides roll, stuffs approaches better sh or on the ground, sets up tech chases on fast fallers and messes up falcons recovery frequently (thank the lord).

MKs damage per hit on his normals is bad SS, outside footstool combos and uair combos you probably won't break 30% off his throws or DA. Its nice having a +50% combo on a top tier. Lower the end lag on ftilt to the point where its like f smash and maybe I'll gush over this movenext patch(this character still needs fixing, his sword trails not matching the hitbox and rco lag are still present his popularity hasn't changed online or offline).

 

[bc1910]

MK's biggest area for improvement is the neutral; he doesn't have a dumb neutral like the (other?) top tiers

Nah, "other" doesn't belong in that sentence IMO. MK's no top tier. Better than in 1.07 for sure, and a probable high tier, but you said it yourself, he doesn't have a dumb enough neutral. Nor does he have one of the defining traits of a top tier in Sm4sh; having few or no meaningful weaknesses.

CEO did little to change my opinion that Sheik/Sonic/Rosa/Pika/ZSS are the true "top tiers" and belong in a separate tier to the rest of the cast. None of them have truly exploitable, polarizing weaknesses apart from ZSS having the worst grab in the game, but she's so overtuned in every other way it doesn't hold her back.

The elephant in the room here is probably Diddy. What I took from CEO was that Diddy still has a great neutral, could still take tournaments and is far from "mid tier" like some idiots were claiming. However, we have had some of the brightest minds in the community pushing Diddy from day 1 and they're already branching out into his other kill setups with the loss of hoo hah. His metagame is developing at a breakneck speed. The fact remains that he now has fair, exploitable weaknesses which make him a solid but balanced character. He has no real offstage game and a bad recovery, his edgeguarding is poor (unless he can set up a banana ledge trap, but this isn't hugely consistent) and he works for his kills.

I think characters like Fox, Ness, Luigi and Diddy are right below the top tiers, and the gap isn't massive, but they're further down because they do have weaknesses that matter. Ness for example has bad recovery and below average mobility, while Luigi's range and mobility are both pretty bad.

As for MK, I think he's held in a good balance by his range issues, lack of good options from a short hop and limited approach options. A great character, but not dumb enough to be top tier.

I should mention that I do recognize Sm4sh's excellent balance compared to the rest of the series, and I do think the top tiers are the least polarizing they've ever been in the series because they are all beatable and none of them tend to outright invalidate characters except Sheik. I just think that there is a clear top 5 that belongs above the rest of the cast on a tier list.

 

[Aquamentii]

Explanation please?

He has the projectiles to make thunder jolt obsolete, but I don't know how Tink would deal with quick attack approaches. None of his aerials are particularly fast so I don't see him escaping combos well... Maybe he can pull out a bomb if the item spawns frame 1 and blow himself and pika up? It would be a combo breaker, kinda like duck hunt's can. I don't know how pika's Bair and Nair would interact with Tink's tether, but if he can avoid pika's edge guards then that'd be dandy. I think with pika's frame data he'd escape any of Tink's combos pretty easily, and I could see pika getting consistently more wins in neutral. It's probably not even, but at the best I'd say 55-45 in Pika's favor. It's probably closer to 60-40 though.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Roy doesn't really have a good approach? I don't know if Roy's attacks can be blocked and he is vulnerable. But most of the time in For Glory, Nair into Down Tilt it's pretty safe. And I usually use Dancing Blade to approach or Neutral Air.

 

[Aquamentii]

Roy doesn't really have a good approach? I don't know if Roy's attacks can be blocked and he is vulnerable. But most of the time in For Glory, Nair into Down Tilt it's pretty safe. And I usually use Dancing Blade to approach or Neutral Air.

I don't think DB is that safe as an approach... Nair->Dtilt would be safe but only at max range(a Marth main is laughing in the distance). There's nothing wrong with a good dash grab, especially considering the fear it brings to the table considering Roy's powerful follow ups out of grab. DB is a good mixup though, since it could catch spotdodges if you do it fast enough.

 

[KenMeister]

Roy doesn't really have a good approach? I don't know if Roy's attacks can be blocked and he is vulnerable. But most of the time in For Glory, Nair into Down Tilt it's pretty safe. And I usually use Dancing Blade to approach or Neutral Air.

Nair>dtilt depends on the size of the opponent's shield. You won't be doing that to a Kirby unless he shields too much, I can tell you that much.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Oooh. Alright. But it's For Glory though... So I think I should improve my approches with Roy. Anyways.

What do you think about: vs ? Is it even? Or does anyone in this match-up have the upper hand?