Character Competitive Impressions

[Spinosaurus]

Roy doesn't really have a good approach? I don't know if Roy's attacks can be blocked and he is vulnerable. But most of the time in For Glory, Nair into Down Tilt it's pretty safe. And I usually use Dancing Blade to approach or Neutral Air.

A lot of things are safer than they should be online.

Like Yoshi.

 

[Aquamentii]

Oooh. Alright. But it's For Glory though... So I think I should improve my approches with Roy. Anyways.

What do you think about: vs ? Is it even? Or does anyone in this match-up have the upper hand?

Rob definitely has the better close-up game, with better grab combos, a better grab period, and capitalizing on all of Samus's shortcomings. I don't know how rob's laser interacts with charge shot, but depending on who wins that trade it could be angled in their favor slightly. Gyro being grab-able helps rob a lot, but his projectile output isn't quite at the level of Samus between sideB and neutralB... I don't think Samus could edge guard rob at all. He might be able to hit her out of tether and Dair's huge disjoint would be a huge tool against her upB. If Samus plays more passive then she might be able to win. Id give the MU to Rob though because of his better close-up game.

 

[hypersonicJD]

What about bombs? She can use the bombs and protect herself from rob's approaches for a little while.

 

[Aquamentii]

What about bombs? She can use the bombs and protect herself from rob's approaches for a little while.

Bombs would be more helpful as a landing option, and considering that juggling is Rob's forte that'd be huge in the MU. As long as charge shot doesn't beat laser then Rob has no need to approach.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Holy cow. I'm actually helping at developing the Samus meta :O

 

[RonNewcomb]

Since Ryu was put in the game cause Sakurai was a comp Street Fighter player, does he main Ryu now? It would make sense.

Where did you hear that?

I doubt it for a couple of reasons. One, business-wise, when Nintendo and Capcom were in talks to bring in some flagship characters, Megaman, Ryu, Strider, and other main character from main franchises would be the top candidates for the third-party outing. Can you imagine if the only Capcom character in Smash would be some secondary character from a minor Capcom franchise that half the audience didn't even know? I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4 is the reason Megaman wasn't in UMvC3: to create some scarcity, and thence some demand.

Secondly, I was a competitive SF player, and I'm not maining Ryu. It isn't just a case of the War of Two Muscle Memories; that eventually goes away. And it isn't just a case of Ryu being very technical here but basic in SF; I mained Juri during SF4, who's the 2nd most technical character in that series. It's just the playstyle given the radically new environment. It weirds me out that low forward into Hado "sort of" comboes, regardless whether the victim is airborne or not, and sometimes allows them jumping out before the fireball hits. It weirds me out how the Hado fizzles out at like Sakura range but the Tatsu travels for seemingly miles. I like Ryu, I'm glad he's here, and I'll even play him with friends because it'll be expected of me, but just as I stick with Wesker in UMvC3, I'll stick with a swordie in Smash, and I wouldn't be surprised if other SF players felt similar.

(And that hold-or-tap mechanic... ugh.)

 

[Radical Larry]

@ hypersonicJD Samus vs ROB is well into ROB's favor; he's superior to Samus in every corner, even projectile game. He doesn't need a projectile to actually whomp Samus, he can actually use his reflector against Samus' projectiles. His reflector may be bad, but Samus' approach in both ground and air are worse, so of he times the reflector right, he won't get punished by Samus.

He's better at footsies, zoning and spacing, and his Gyro can be spammed at Samus like crazy, used with mind games and with his aerials, something that Samus will absolutely hate. Secondly, ROB has more moves that combo AND KO, while Samus...uh...very, VERY lacking in KO and combo set ups. Thank you poor mobility and horrible moves.

---

On an unrelated topic; back a couple pages I talked about how to solve Link's problems with bombs against shielding characters and how to use them as a mind game. I thought of another way this would work for Link, because if he reads the opponent right, he could nail in a D-Smash, U-Smash, U-Tilt, N-Air or Spin Attack if the opponent rolls right to him. If the opponent rolls back, however, he has Gale Boomerang or the time to pull out yet another bomb and do the same set up.

The Smashes and Spin Attack are probably better solutions at low to high damages, while U-Tilt would be good for higher damages or juggling opponents at low damage, N-Air would be good at moderate damages for Link to set up for a dash attack, Spin Attack or F-Tilt read (depending on where the opponent techs, rolls or lands).

 

[Aquamentii]

@ hypersonicJD Samus vs ROB is well into ROB's favor; he's superior to Samus in every corner, even projectile game. He doesn't need a projectile to actually whomp Samus, he can actually use his reflector against Samus' projectiles. His reflector may be bad, but Samus' approach in both ground and air are worse, so of he times the reflector right, he won't get punished by Samus.

He's better at footsies, zoning and spacing, and his Gyro can be spammed at Samus like crazy, used with mind games and with his aerials, something that Samus will absolutely hate. Secondly, ROB has more moves that combo AND KO, while Samus...uh...very, VERY lacking in KO and combo set ups. Thank you poor mobility and horrible moves.

---

On an unrelated topic; back a couple pages I talked about how to solve Link's problems with bombs against shielding characters and how to use them as a mind game. I thought of another way this would work for Link, because if he reads the opponent right, he could nail in a D-Smash, U-Smash, U-Tilt, N-Air or Spin Attack if the opponent rolls right to him. If the opponent rolls back, however, he has Gale Boomerang or the time to pull out yet another bomb and do the same set up.

The Smashes and Spin Attack are probably better solutions at low to high damages, while U-Tilt would be good for higher damages or juggling opponents at low damage, N-Air would be good at moderate damages for Link to set up for a dash attack, Spin Attack or F-Tilt read (depending on where the opponent techs, rolls or lands).

Link cannot Zdrop bombs, correct? would the best option be to throw the bomb up and immediately pick another option or hit their shield with it and do something out of that(grab, Ftilt)?

 

[hypersonicJD]

Why is the debate between Link vs Sheik? Sheik completely wins. Bounching fish can just ignore every single Link proyectile. Sheik has the safest attacks ever so a grab won't do a single thing, needles are a better proyectile and Link can't combo Sheik at all. Sorry but it jusn't doesn't make sense to me D:

 

[Baby_Sneak]

@ hypersonicJD Samus vs ROB is well into ROB's favor; he's superior to Samus in every corner, even projectile game. He doesn't need a projectile to actually whomp Samus, he can actually use his reflector against Samus' projectiles. His reflector may be bad, but Samus' approach in both ground and air are worse, so of he times the reflector right, he won't get punished by Samus.

He's better at footsies, zoning and spacing, and his Gyro can be spammed at Samus like crazy, used with mind games and with his aerials, something that Samus will absolutely hate. Secondly, ROB has more moves that combo AND KO, while Samus...uh...very, VERY lacking in KO and combo set ups. Thank you poor mobility and horrible moves

I think it's best g you go to the Samus boards and see all the good stuff they have there.

And about rob vs Samus, Samus has that Zaor that out ranges everything we have outside of projectiles and if we get hit by a combo starter, well it's a death sentence since we have no quick get off me option. We also can't really reflect charge shot when the Samus player is smart, becuase they'll most likely do it as a combo finisher and there's DEFINITLY no way we'll just spam gyro at ANYBODY in the game when it can be picked up and used against us. We'll use it as a combo finisher out of a grab to safety pull it out and then we can have our fun. We DO kill way better and juggle better and control the stage better with gyro positioning and stuff, but we still got to be careful against a good solid samus. Like xyro.

 

[NairWizard]

On Ryu, it's worth noting (was pointed out to me today):

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu

Ryu's airdodge is 4-25/34, which means that he has 13 frames of airdodge vulnerability.

In a game rife with 5-frame-invulnerability airdodges, that's pretty bad. Unless he uses FADC, Ryu's going to have a tough time landing (and actually recovering, as he can't do airdodge -> recover as easily as others). I had inklings of it before when I was playing him, but I attributed the juggles to only his poor aerial control.

 

[Aquamentii]

I think it's best g you go to the Samus boards and see all the good stuff they have there.

And about rob vs Samus, Samus has that Zaor that out ranges everything we have outside of projectiles and if we get hit by a combo starter, well it's a death sentence since we have no quick get off me option. We also can't really reflect charge shot when the Samus player is smart, becuase they'll most likely do it as a combo finisher and there's DEFINITLY no way we'll just spam gyro at ANYBODY in the game when it can be picked up and used against us. We'll use it as a combo finisher out of a grab to safety pull it out and then we can have our fun. We DO kill way better and juggle better and control the stage better with gyro positioning and stuff, but we still got to be careful against a good solid samus. Like xyro.

How does a fully charged laser interact with a fully charged charge shot?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How does a fully charged laser interact with a fully charged charge shot?

They don't, they go through each other. Our fully charged laser is transcendent.

 

[Aquamentii]

They don't, they go through each other. Our fully charged laser is transcendent.

Hm. Given that then I can't say Samus has an advantage in the matchup aside from combo-ing Rob as much as she can whenever she confirms in neutral. I don't know how far her combos extend but rob doesn't have that many escape options I assume.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ A Aquamentii Link can Z-Drop Bombs; that's how he keeps himself safe from things like Aura Sphere and Charge Shot (because Bombs eat those two attacks). The best option when throwing Bombs at opponents is to read where they're going. If they try a counter attack, or during those golden frames of shielding that Link can grab them at, use a grab. If they roll toward Link, use U-Smash, D-Smash or Spin Attack. If they roll away from Link, use Gale Boomerang for a set up.

Why is the debate between Link vs Sheik? Sheik completely wins. Bounching fish can just ignore every single Link proyectile. Sheik has the safest attacks ever so a grab won't do a single thing, needles are a better proyectile and Link can't combo Sheik at all. Sorry but it jusn't doesn't make sense to me D:

Wow, that is highly inaccurate about her ignoring Link's projectiles. Bouncing Fish cannot ignore Gale Boomerang nor Bombs; Sheik just doesn't jump high enough for that to work, especially at closer ranges. I can understand it if Sheik were higher (Gale Boomerang tilted upward or throw the bomb up), but if Sheik is horizontal to you, I find it hard to believe she can ignore Bombs or Gale Boomerang with Bouncing Fish.

Secondly, while she has the safest attacks, you have to grab her when she starts to land from any of her aerials. And Sheik's dash attack is unsafe on block, so there's a free grab. Sheik's Smashes are REALLY unsafe on block, so there's a free attack or grab if you can block. Needles are decent projectiles, but Link can just block them with Hylian Shield and negate all damage, then come up with a retreat strategy. Needles work if Link tries to attack, hold Bombs or approach in air, and from afar, they only do 7% damage.

And Link not being able to combo Sheik at all? What are you? Radical Larry? Link can definitely combo Sheik, much like every other character in the game can be combo'd by Link. Link has combos and strings that have to make Sheik respect him. I don't know where you got the info that Link can't combo Sheik at all, but he can combo Sheik if he gets in.

 

[NewZen]

@ A Aquamentii Link can Z-Drop Bombs; that's how he keeps himself safe from things like Aura Sphere and Charge Shot (because Bombs eat those two attacks). The best option when throwing Bombs at opponents is to read where they're going. If they try a counter attack, or during those golden frames of shielding that Link can grab them at, use a grab. If they roll toward Link, use U-Smash, D-Smash or Spin Attack. If they roll away from Link, use Gale Boomerang for a set up.



Wow, that is highly inaccurate about her ignoring Link's projectiles. Bouncing Fish cannot ignore Gale Boomerang nor Bombs; Sheik just doesn't jump high enough for that to work, especially at closer ranges. I can understand it if Sheik were higher (Gale Boomerang tilted upward or throw the bomb up), but if Sheik is horizontal to you, I find it hard to believe she can ignore Bombs or Gale Boomerang with Bouncing Fish.

Secondly, while she has the safest attacks, you have to grab her when she starts to land from any of her aerials. And Sheik's dash attack is unsafe on block, so there's a free grab. Sheik's Smashes are REALLY unsafe on block, so there's a free attack or grab if you can block. Needles are decent projectiles, but Link can just block them with Hylian Shield and negate all damage, then come up with a retreat strategy. Needles work if Link tries to attack, hold Bombs or approach in air, and from afar, they only do 7% damage.

And Link not being able to combo Sheik at all? What are you? Radical Larry? Link can definitely combo Sheik, much like every other character in the game can be combo'd by Link. Link has combos and strings that have to make Sheik respect him. I don't know where you got the info that Link can't combo Sheik at all, but he can combo Sheik if he gets in.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Our best Link and Sheik players have duked it out various times and there's no way that Link is completely crapped on by Sheik. Sure, she has the options to get in on Link given that he wants to keep you away until he's able to KO effectively, but his tools are no slouch in keeping her at bay (as you've stated, Hylian Shielding exists, plus his projectiles can go farther than her's can and can gimp effectively).

 

[Radical Larry]

I mean, there is the whole possibility that Link and Sheik are even, it's a possibility and a probability.

And from what I've seen, Sheiks that use Needles either always follow up with Dash, Grab, F-Air and Bouncing Fish, since those are really her best approaches from what I've seen. Using N-Air would get you punished and using the RAR B-Air or using D-Air will be too slow for her UNLESS the Needles hit. If the opponent blocks, those attacks will be punished to no end.

But as I've done on countless players, it's possible for Link to combo any opponent around Sheik's weight or higher, to 60% with ease, and that's with DI. Link is still that one character to respect for and try to think about.

And randomizing his projectiles wouldn't be a bad choice either, but that's just me. I mean, utilization of them as a randomized hit from time to time will be good since opponents won't know what he'll throw. AFAIK, it really does work.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Holy cow. I'm actually helping at developing the Samus meta :O

Lol! Come play with us in the Samus forum, we don't bite. Just discovered yesterday footstool tech chases out of up-air at any percent.
Rob vs. Samus is actually Rob keeping Samus out, not the other way around. Rob gets true comboed like a rag doll and basic dash-attack combos are very effective since you grab the gyro on the way in. It's 65+ damage out of two dash or grab starters guaranteed. The basic jab combo then comes online readily, so there's no in-close advantage at all. FJ FF z-air is how we negate his overall projectile neutral game. It's still a good fight overall, not to detract from Rob's advantages. His spinning reflector is a very ineffective reflector and we can pop out of it and CS him in the face more times than not. For edge guard because of his aerial speed and huge hurtbox he basically cannot air-dodge out of f-air, which lasts nearly as long as a full airdodge, he has to throw out an aerial or he's screwed. I put it at as advantage for Samus because we really need few hits to land to get ROB to kill percents and off the stage whereas ROB needs really great zoning and big pile of hits to land but there's no consensus in the forum on the matchup and some feel Samus is at dissadvantage.

 

[NewZen]

On the subject of Sheik, how would you say the MU's go for her versus these characters?

Vs.-I can see the Guardian Orbitars being useful to some extent here, but I can't say for a lot of things, given that DP doesn't really hold down the neutral game well (From my experience, at least) against Sheik. Electroshock has its uses against the Flashbomb, but I think Sheik doesn't really care for it much in this case. Anyone care to help in this situation?
Vs.-I've played this MU so few times in FG and offline, and everytime I win because the Sheik I'm playing is being too defensive (Relying too much on Needles and the like for damage instead of going in). I can assume that Sheik just downright pressures Mega into coming to her given that she can get out moves faster than everything except for maybe Jab?
Vs.-In my experience, I've seen that Lucas loses that MU frequently from matches I've seen my friends play, but because he's a returning character, it's hard to judge.

 

[Aquamentii]

@ A Aquamentii Link can Z-Drop Bombs; that's how he keeps himself safe from things like Aura Sphere and Charge Shot (because Bombs eat those two attacks). The best option when throwing Bombs at opponents is to read where they're going. If they try a counter attack, or during those golden frames of shielding that Link can grab them at, use a grab. If they roll toward Link, use U-Smash, D-Smash or Spin Attack. If they roll away from Link, use Gale Boomerang for a set up.



Wow, that is highly inaccurate about her ignoring Link's projectiles. Bouncing Fish cannot ignore Gale Boomerang nor Bombs; Sheik just doesn't jump high enough for that to work, especially at closer ranges. I can understand it if Sheik were higher (Gale Boomerang tilted upward or throw the bomb up), but if Sheik is horizontal to you, I find it hard to believe she can ignore Bombs or Gale Boomerang with Bouncing Fish.

Secondly, while she has the safest attacks, you have to grab her when she starts to land from any of her aerials. And Sheik's dash attack is unsafe on block, so there's a free grab. Sheik's Smashes are REALLY unsafe on block, so there's a free attack or grab if you can block. Needles are decent projectiles, but Link can just block them with Hylian Shield and negate all damage, then come up with a retreat strategy. Needles work if Link tries to attack, hold Bombs or approach in air, and from afar, they only do 7% damage.

And Link not being able to combo Sheik at all? What are you? Radical Larry? Link can definitely combo Sheik, much like every other character in the game can be combo'd by Link. Link has combos and strings that have to make Sheik respect him. I don't know where you got the info that Link can't combo Sheik at all, but he can combo Sheik if he gets in.

Here's how I see the linkXshiek MU:
Shiek's advantages:
She can edge guard link effectively while Link's weak offstage game doesn't mean he can edge guard her well, if at all.
Her moves(aside from smashes and such) are all around safer,so she has to commit less in neutral.
Link's weight, while it keeps him alive longer, allows him to get combo'd easier
She has plenty of landing traps on Link with needles and Upair, and several other safe moves.
She can use needles to attack Link whenever he throws projectiles
Link's advantages:
Rage mode favors him heavily because of his weight, kill power, and shiek's lack thereof
He can just stand there to negate grounded needles. 0 effort required.
He has all the disjoints, while shiek's attacks are not disjointed.
His projectiles are (arguably)superior, both in damage and the setups they grant with bombs.
He can heavily punish any whiffed kill move from shiek with the exception(?) of bouncing fish(???)
He can grab any poorly spaced aerial shiek throws out, provided timing is on point.
probably some other things

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik's physics also get her comboed by D-throw -> U-tilt and U-smash for quite a long time, and she can be KO confirmed by D-throw -> U-air. She has to play completely differently once Link is in grab range because that thing legit wrecks her and actually beats out her moveset.

Not a lot of characters legitimately can force Sheik to guess in neutral, fewer can get extremely massive reward consistently for it.

 

[Aquamentii]

One question I've been trying to answer: is there anything Jigglypuff can do to Sonic? That MU is so skewed in sonic's favor.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Lol! Come play with us in the Samus forum, we don't bite. Just discovered yesterday footstool tech chases out of up-air at any percent.
Rob vs. Samus is actually Rob keeping Samus out, not the other way around. Rob gets true comboed like a rag doll and basic dash-attack combos are very effective since you grab the gyro on the way in. It's 65+ damage out of two dash or grab starters guaranteed. The basic jab combo then comes online readily, so there's no in-close advantage at all. FJ FF z-air is how we negate his overall projectile neutral game. It's still a good fight overall, not to detract from Rob's advantages. His spinning reflector is a very ineffective reflector and we can pop out of it and CS him in the face more times than not. For edge guard because of his aerial speed and huge hurtbox he basically cannot air-dodge out of f-air, which lasts nearly as long as a full airdodge, he has to throw out an aerial or he's screwed. I put it at as advantage for Samus because we really need few hits to land to get ROB to kill percents and off the stage whereas ROB needs really great zoning and big pile of hits to land but there's no consensus in the forum on the matchup and some feel Samus is at dissadvantage.

Every character forum should look at you guys and say," we need to be more like that."
Anyways, if you Samus people came in close, in my brain I would either wall you out with dtilt, ftilt, Fair, and retreating Nair/Bair, or embrace it and just go for the grab Dthrow Uair and begin the juggle sequence. We also can recover below you guys since our Uair has a long reach + our rising aerial momentum means we have a extended range on it ( unless Samus Dair is disjointed, then we're free). I'm still working on my gyro game, but we turn into a brick wall that shoots lasers once we have that in hand. But, I haven't really met a solid samus online yet.

 

[Radical Larry]

Sheik's physics also get her comboed by D-throw -> U-tilt and U-smash for quite a long time, and she can be KO confirmed by D-throw -> U-air. She has to play completely differently once Link is in grab range because that thing legit wrecks her and actually beats out her moveset.

Not a lot of characters legitimately can force Sheik to guess in neutral, fewer can get extremely massive reward consistently for it.

Provided D-Throw > U-Air doesn't end up as a D-Throw > SH U-Air, you'll get a decent KO confirm.

 

[Nobie]

Hm. Given that then I can't say Samus has an advantage in the matchup aside from combo-ing Rob as much as she can whenever she confirms in neutral. I don't know how far her combos extend but rob doesn't have that many escape options I assume.

I'd say Samus still has the advantage if both of their projectiles go through each other. Both characters are comparable in weight and size, except that Charge Shot is a lot more potent than ROB's laser. If they end up trading, Samus i would assume comes out on top each time.

 

[Aquamentii]

I'd say Samus still has the advantage if both of their projectiles go through each other. Both characters are comparable in weight and size, except that Charge Shot is a lot more potent than ROB's laser. If they end up trading, Samus i would assume comes out on top each time.

The thing is, rob's gyro just sitting on the ground will completely stop a charge shot, and rob's laser has slightly less cool down than samus's. By standing at opposite edges of smashville firing both shots at the same time and pressing shield after, rob will be able to shield the charge shot but Samus's has too much cooldown(although hers is significantly more powerful) and gets hit by the laser.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Lol! Come play with us in the Samus forum, we don't bite. Just discovered yesterday footstool tech chases out of up-air at any percent.
Rob vs. Samus is actually Rob keeping Samus out, not the other way around. Rob gets true comboed like a rag doll and basic dash-attack combos are very effective since you grab the gyro on the way in. It's 65+ damage out of two dash or grab starters guaranteed. The basic jab combo then comes online readily, so there's no in-close advantage at all. FJ FF z-air is how we negate his overall projectile neutral game. It's still a good fight overall, not to detract from Rob's advantages. His spinning reflector is a very ineffective reflector and we can pop out of it and CS him in the face more times than not. For edge guard because of his aerial speed and huge hurtbox he basically cannot air-dodge out of f-air, which lasts nearly as long as a full airdodge, he has to throw out an aerial or he's screwed. I put it at as advantage for Samus because we really need few hits to land to get ROB to kill percents and off the stage whereas ROB needs really great zoning and big pile of hits to land but there's no consensus in the forum on the matchup and some feel Samus is at dissadvantage.

Alright then. I'll go visit the Samus forum and learn more things about her

In the Sheik vs Link match, Sheik can just make a read, jump, Bounching Fish and punish Link properly. About Down Thrown into Up Tilt. Maybe she can teleport or at higher percents use Bouncing Fish to escape. Maybe we can have a private discussion (I want a Sheik vs Link match honestly ) And see how it goes. Besides, this is just checking the match-ups. So we should't have a trouble figuring out how it would the battle turn out.

 

[Speed Boost]

Vs.-I can see the Guardian Orbitars being useful to some extent here, but I can't say for a lot of things, given that DP doesn't really hold down the neutral game well (From my experience, at least) against Sheik. Electroshock has its uses against the Flashbomb, but I think Sheik doesn't really care for it much in this case. Anyone care to help in this situation?

In my opinion Orbitars should only be used for reflecting projectiles when Mega Man is charging an FSmash in your face or as an occasional landing mixup against someone who is punishing landings with projectiles. The move is just too slow and unsafe. It's also good for gimping recoverys that don't snap to the ledge, like Little Mac. In the Sheik MU it doesn't have much use. Electroshock is for times when they are being overly commited in their rush down.

Sheik is a tough MU for the Pits especially if you are overly committal with dash based approaches. You are gonna want to use a lot of Jab 1, Pivot FTilt/Grab, DTilt and retreating SH NAir/DAir in nuetral to try and get into an advantaged situation or bait out a punish. Then you can start mixing in your dash game.

Using your arrows to punish openings they have to charge needles is an option, but only when there is enough distance between you to avoid an easy punish. Otherwise, use powershielding as best you can to avoid needles.

This is a tough MU, you really need to outplay your opponent to win.

 

[bc1910]

Worth noting that Sheik (and everyone else, actually) can get out of Link's Dthrow > Uair by DI-ing in the direction Link is facing. Having tested this extensively in training I could not get Dthrow > Uair to true combo, which means characters can safely jump out of the combo whereas normally it registers, so they can airdodge out but not jump, and at certain timings I believe Uair frame traps airdodges.

Uair will still be able to hit some opponents, particularly big characters with bad double jumps, but more generally this isn't a kill option Link can rely on against someone who knows how to DI the setup. Still a good mixup, though, and the character is still forced to jump so their landing can be trapped afterwards.

 

[Nobie]

The thing is, rob's gyro just sitting on the ground will completely stop a charge shot, and rob's laser has slightly less cool down than samus's. By standing at opposite edges of smashville firing both shots at the same time and pressing shield after, rob will be able to shield the charge shot but Samus's has too much cooldown(although hers is significantly more powerful) and gets hit by the laser.

I can see how the gyro is an important factor, but I'm not sure how often two players will stand on the opposite side of the screen and fire their big projectiles at each other. How quickly can ROB shield at mid-range?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't see this used nearly often enough.

 

[Teshie U]

Upperdash Arm is very useful against sheik. I'd much rather kill under 120% with an armored move than try to set up edgeguards on sheik.

Orbitars actually has some rather cheesey and hilarious utility in the matchup. It takes a decent amount of damage to break them. I've actually seen high level sheik players get stifled by this midair. She doesn't have an air grab and she doesn't have powerful aerials so she basically just has to watch you land if you throw these out when she is juggling. All she can really do is grab the landing and that takes a while to lead into kills. She has to worry about his superior range and rage upperdash/fthrow are potent threats as well.


Megaman vs Sheik is just one of those matchups where you need to stay alive and get those rage kills. Any screw ups with jab/ftilt mixups can get her uptilted for a kill at as low as 50%. Pellets don't really beat her moves, but against someone as safe as sheik, its nice to have a usable method of actually tacking on some damage. Overall Megaman is heavy enough to survive sheik's pressure game and get rage (recovery is definitely gimpable though) and still quick enough in movement and attack speed to reach her and force confrontations.

Samus isn't really just going to sit back and shoot at ROB. Its definitely an options to beat out lasers and spacing moves at mid range, but there isn't really any matchup where both players should be aiming to sit across the entire stage and shoot at each other. ROB is a large target and Samus can actually pressure him with Zair and Uair if he is trying to abuse his superior projectile game. A big issue for Samus is her trouble KOing or even hitting small targets. Its very important to properly space and angle her fsmash/tilt and quickly choose the correct quick options for targets directly in front of you (dtilt,jab, utilt all have awkward spots they dont hit well). ROB doesn't present any of these issues. If he winds up in the wrong place at the wrong time, he is going to get hit by Bair OoS (very powerful move when it sweetspots) or Fsmash (fastest in the game and pretty powerful too). He is also combo food for Uair and it actually hits him on the ground. Considering he is also tall enough to deal with jab mixups, I wouldn't even say he is terrifying close range for her.

 

[adom4]

I don't see this used nearly often enough.

I do this all the time with Ganondorf, if the uppercut hits it clears the way up for him.
With Dark fists it just murders everything.

 

[bc1910]

Upperdash Arm is very useful against sheik. I'd much rather kill under 120% with an armored move than try to set up edgeguards on sheik.

Well, Pit is the same as or better than his edgy counterpart in almost every situation. Dark Pit isn't really balanced properly... people talk about Lucina being outclassed but Dark Pit is easily the most obsolete clone.

If you're not fighting Rosalina or maybe Mac, his palette swaps being infinitely cooler is probably the only reason to pick him over Pit.

 

[Aquamentii]

Upperdash Arm is very useful against sheik. I'd much rather kill under 120% with an armored move than try to set up edgeguards on sheik.

Orbitars actually has some rather cheesey and hilarious utility in the matchup. It takes a decent amount of damage to break them. I've actually seen high level sheik players get stifled by this midair. She doesn't have an air grab and she doesn't have powerful aerials so she basically just has to watch you land if you throw these out when she is juggling. All she can really do is grab the landing and that takes a while to lead into kills. She has to worry about his superior range and rage upperdash/fthrow are potent threats as well.


Megaman vs Sheik is just one of those matchups where you need to stay alive and get those rage kills. Any screw ups with jab/ftilt mixups can get her uptilted for a kill at as low as 50%. Pellets don't really beat her moves, but against someone as safe as sheik, its nice to have a usable method of actually tacking on some damage. Overall Megaman is heavy enough to survive sheik's pressure game and get rage (recovery is definitely gimpable though) and still quick enough in movement and attack speed to reach her and force confrontations.

Samus isn't really just going to sit back and shoot at ROB. Its definitely an options to beat out lasers and spacing moves at mid range, but there isn't really any matchup where both players should be aiming to sit across the entire stage and shoot at each other. ROB is a large target and Samus can actually pressure him with Zair and Uair if he is trying to abuse his superior projectile game. A big issue for Samus is her trouble KOing or even hitting small targets. Its very important to properly space and angle her fsmash/tilt and quickly choose the correct quick options for targets directly in front of you (dtilt,jab, utilt all have awkward spots they dont hit well). ROB doesn't present any of these issues. If he winds up in the wrong place at the wrong time, he is going to get hit by Bair OoS (very powerful move when it sweetspots) or Fsmash (fastest in the game and pretty powerful too). He is also combo food for Uair and it actually hits him on the ground. Considering he is also tall enough to deal with jab mixups, I wouldn't even say he is terrifying close range for her.

In close range, Rob has:
Fast tilts/jab
A good normal grab that combos into kill moves or just outright kills at high%
Powerful smashes
Samus, has:
Fast but not as fast tilts
A terrible grab(probably worst in the game besides maybe ganondorf)
Much weaker smashes
Great range with Zair(huge+ actually)
Rob definitely wins the close up game.

I can see how the gyro is an important factor, but I'm not sure how often two players will stand on the opposite side of the screen and fire their big projectiles at each other. How quickly can ROB shield at mid-range?

Both have decent endlag and travel fast. Anywhere except the ends of the stage and they'll both get hit, but the Gyro still protects rob.

 

[Teshie U]

Well, Pit is the same as or better than his edgy counterpart in almost every situation. Dark Pit isn't really balanced properly... people talk about Lucina being outclassed but Dark Pit is easily the most obsolete clone.

Yea, I've seen some good uses in practice for Dr Mario and Lucina (both off more reliable power with a trade off), but Dark Pit pretty much just has 3-4 moves that are just worse and thats it.

 

[Wintropy]

Didn't Nairo choose Pit over Dark Pit against Nietono's Sheik due to the vertical knockback on Upperdash? It's definitely one of those matchups where Pit has an advantage over Dark Pit, Sheik's recovery options just mitigate any advantage Electroshock may have.

Good luck reflecting those needles, though. @ Speed Boost summed it up nicely: Orbies' frame data puts Pit at more of a disadvantage unless he's extremely judicious with its use.

 

[Teshie U]

In close range, Rob has:
Fast tilts/jab
A good normal grab that combos into kill moves or just outright kills at high%
Powerful smashes
Samus, has:
Fast but not as fast tilts
A terrible grab(probably worst in the game besides maybe ganondorf)
Much weaker smashes
Great range with Zair(huge+ actually)
Rob definitely wins the close up game.


Both have decent endlag and travel fast. Anywhere except the ends of the stage and they'll both get hit, but the Gyro still protects rob.

ROB wins up close for sure. Almost everyone does against Samus. Her quick options are risky and/or precision based. He has to respect OoS aerials because of his size though. I know his upsmash is pretty strong, but its risky to throw out. Samus Fsmash is frame 10 and pretty comparable power. Its definitely not something you want to get hit by. Ftilt sets up for Charge shots and Samus generally just combos ROB more easily because of uair (uair also makes it harder for ROB to combo Samus)

 

[|RK|]

Am I the only one that likes Nairo's Pit more than his ZSS?

 

[Wintropy]

Am I the only one that likes Nairo's Pit more than his ZSS?

Bias aside, I prefer watching his Pit(too). He plays an exceptional ZSS, no doubt about it, I just think it's easier to appreciate how good his fundamentals are when he plays Pit(too). I feel like he plays more creatively with Pit(too), he's constantly mixing it up and making use of every tool at his disposal. He really pushes the character to its limits, which you have to do if you want to keep up with the top-tier characters.