Character Competitive Impressions

[ArikadoSD]

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, welcome to the

/r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

Let's get kicking! One quick note before I get going, I managed to accidentally forget the DLC in the extra questions on the poll. My B. TBH these questions provide less information than the tier list itself so with this accident I didn't include them right now. Also a quick reminder that a customs on tier list will be voted on in August (after Evo so discussion can take place prior and interest can go up) and it will have a LOT of improvements (seriously, folks are going to like it). Also remember this list assumes customs are off and that Miis have access to all of their moves. So let's get on with the tier list!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories. (Please for the love of all that is good in the world read that paragraph. The number of people who say "there's too many tiers" each month is enough to make my head hurt.)

ONE LAST NOTE: Remember that three characters were just added to the game, so consider that when seeing how far some characters moved down (as at first glance it might look like a lot more than you would think).

Spoiler

(S)(13.75 | ±0) (13.18 | ±0)
(A+) (12.46 | ±0) (12.43 | ±0) (12.19 | +1)
(A) (11.96 | +3) (11.74 | ±0) (11.52 | ±0) (11.3 | +3) (11.07 | -5) (10.95 | ±0)
(A-) (10.94 | -1) (10.89 | ±0) (10.88 | -1) (10.86 | -4) 15 (10.37 | -2) (10.26 | ±0)
(B+) (9.98 | -2) (9.90 | +3) (9.79 | +2) (9.78 | -6) (9.7 | -5) (9.66 | +3) (9.57 | -1) (9.4 | -4) (9.33 | -8) (9.31 | -10) (9.07 | -9)
(B) (8.81 | -5) (8.72 | +13) (8.64 | -4) (8.6 | -7) (8.59 | -3) (8.51 | +7) (8.24 | -4)(8.11 | -1) (8 | -9)
(B-) (7.64 | -9) (7.54 | -1) (7.49 | -3) (7.46 | -9) (7.17 | -9) (7.09 | -7) (7.03 | -5) (7.02 | -5)
(C+) (6.96 | +4) (6.81 | -13) (6.77 | -4) (6.65 | -7)(6.57 | -5) (6.53 | -5) (6.5 | -1) (6.41 | -5) (6.4 | -7)
(C) (5.88 | -6)

I really think looking at this that a few spots are a bit confusing (someone will show off what characters buffs can do soon enough) but is still seriously interesting to look at and discuss. With that, I leave you all to discuss your thoughts on the list: enjoy!

I honestly believe Greninja is only so high because of his popularity and not his actual viability. I legitimately don't think he's better than Kirby, MK, Toon Link, or even Robin.

That being said, Robin is too low tbh, and Ike's way too high even with all the buffs, because they didn't really fix any of his flaws, just made him slightly less bad.

Also agree with everyone else on Luigi still being overrated. There was a time when it was anti-meta (pre M2 patch), and it's over. It's still good obviously but top 3 sounds a bit too much.

 

[deepseadiva]

So what exactly is it that's holding them back? Lack of kill power? Absurdly long f-smash / u-air frames? General mediocrity?

98% because you cannot play Miis on For Glory.

1% because what San said.

1% the hats look ugly.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

98% because you cannot play Miis on For Glory.

1% because what San said.

1% the hats look ugly.

deepseafashionISTA

Smooth Criminal

 

[Antonykun]

If you're judicious with your tactics, yes, doing something besides using aerials can help. The cardinal sin of any player's strategy is predictability, just tossing out aerials won't help you much if your opponent is halfway savvy.

On another note entirely~

I'm really impressed with how versatile Mii Gunner actually is. Their zoning setups and trap game are real, not to mention they have, on paper, a decent toolkit for dealing with unwanted close-range attention.

So what exactly is it that's holding them back? Lack of kill power? Absurdly long f-smash / u-air frames? General mediocrity?

overall their player base is on some incredibly shaky ground
are miss banned? are they APEX only? are they no size mods? or are they size + customs?
It varies way too much between tournaments
like i would love to have grenade launch gunner as a secondary but not if she's getting banned every other tournament

 

[DunnoBro]

Re: Palutena, I worry that people view Lightweight through rose-tinted glasses. I don't think it's a panacea that instantly remedies Palutena's glaring faults. Yeah, it sets up for a great kill throw and makes her combo game more reliable, but is that enough to mitigate her rather hefty drawbacks?

Lightweight mitigates her issue of getting kills, but it doesn't remedy her rather lackluster neutral/punish game. I think she's plenty viable in customs, but via risk/reward like ZSS. She doesn't become a totally solid character.

I'd say mega man, WFT, and kirby become more complete characters in customs while the likes of Palutena, and Ganon are just about as incomplete, but can power through with their godlike combo/punish game.

 

[Speed Boost]

Lightweight mitigates her issue of getting kills, but it doesn't remedy her rather lackluster neutral/punish game. I think she's plenty viable in customs, but via risk/reward like ZSS. She doesn't become a totally solid character.

I'd say mega man, WFT, and kirby become more complete characters in customs while the likes of Palutena, and Ganon are just about as incomplete, but can power through with their godlike combo/punish game.

You're right about her neutral having limited options, but she has just enough to get the job done. Jab, Grab, SH BAir/NAir, Dash Attack, that's about it for her normals in neutral. Luckily between Lightweight DA and Superspeed she can condition shielding to get her grabs.

I wish we cold just allow customs for certain charcters, but complex bans are never a good idea. I love what customs do for all the characters you mentioned. Hopefully EVO will shed a positive light on customs.

 

[Kofu]

Miis are kind of a logistical nightmare, almost more than customs in general, and the only reason they aren't are because their customs are unlocked at the start. Were it not for the fact that smaller (but generally not the smallest) Miis are overall superior I'd recommend playing around mainly with default size Miis because they're the most likely to be allowed at large tournaments. Miis are kind of in the same boat as Palutena as their specials are all unique, and thus their default kits can provide highly different results than their customs. Gunner and Brawler each have at least one custom that completely changes their viability (Grenade Launch and Helicopter Kick, respectively). Not sure on Swordfighter.

 

[Locke 06]

I'd say mega man... become[s a] more complete character in customs...

I'd be interested in hearing this. I'm guessing it's about Danger Wrap's ability to throw out a move that kills without doing something as commital as usmash, his lowest commital kill move on the ground.

 

[FullMoon]

I honestly believe Greninja is only so high because of his popularity and not his actual viability. I legitimately don't think he's better than Kirby, MK, Toon Link, or even Robin.

I don't think Greninja is popular in this fandom, considering how few people actually play him.

I mean, if popularity was a big factor, then Charizard would probably be A+.

I'd be interested in hearing why you don't think he's viable though.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Ehh I'm gonna have to dispute that. She gets a decent amount from customs besides a cheesy grab.

Explosive Flame is a great long-distance poke / damage-dealer that pierces shield on the last frame, essentially making it (to quote a user on this very site that I can't for the life of me recall) a "ranged command grab".

Super Speed is very difficult to intercept and sets up for follow-ups with her dash, (pivot) grab, n-air, f-air, d-air, b-air and u-smash.

Jump Glide allows her to control the stage from any angle and get some pretty nice setups going on with her aerials and jab.

Yeah, all of her good customs are essentially variations on the theme of "set up and go ham", but it at least offers her versatility and an abundance of approach options, which she just doesn't have in her default set.

EDIT: ffs people you type fast

or i guess i just type slow



Mix it up. You can't afford to be predictable in this situation; trying for a d-air every time, for example, is a surefire way to get shield-grabbed.

Understand how your opponent will react, condition them if you can. Try for a d-air occasionally, and then if you see them shielding on reaction, fastfall and dash / pivot grab. N-air can work to play keepaway if they try for a jump at you, while b-air will usually sweetspot if you're at a safe enough distance to fall to the side and get them to chase you.

Yo mang, you got me out of context. I'm talking about custom-less Palutena.

 

[Makorel]

I'd be interested in hearing this. I'm guessing it's about Danger Wrap's ability to throw out a move that kills without doing something as commital as usmash, his lowest commital kill move on the ground.

It's more that it covers a literal hole in Mega's keep away game. Metal Blade and Crash Bomber both cover horizontal area (along with standard pellets), while his Up Air and Up Smash covers vertical area. This leaves an area diagonally above Mega Man that he can't cover without committing to an aerial or that outranges his aerials entirely. This is where Danger Wrap comes in, as that diagonal trajectory is absolutely perfect for people who like to jump over Mega Man's projectiles who are not directly above him. The fact that it kills is just gravy.

 

[Nu~]

It's more that it covers a literal hole in Mega's keep away game. Metal Blade and Crash Bomber both cover horizontal area (along with standard pellets), while his Up Air and Up Smash covers vertical area. This leaves an area diagonally above Mega Man that he can't cover without committing to an aerial or that outranges his aerials entirely. This is where Danger Wrap comes in, as that diagonal trajectory is absolutely perfect for people who like to jump over Mega Man's projectiles who are not directly above him. The fact that it kills is just gravy.

Metal blade can travel diagonally...

 

[Makorel]

Oh right.

Still I think Megaman has more than enough horizontal pressure. He has diagonal pressure with metal blade but he gets even more of it with Metal Blade and Danger Wrap.

Edit: Now that I've thought about it for more than a minute the KO power is a pretty big deal. I'm not too scared of jumping into a metal blade but I am scared of jumping into a danger wrap.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, welcome to the

/r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

Let's get kicking! One quick note before I get going, I managed to accidentally forget the DLC in the extra questions on the poll. My B. TBH these questions provide less information than the tier list itself so with this accident I didn't include them right now. Also a quick reminder that a customs on tier list will be voted on in August (after Evo so discussion can take place prior and interest can go up) and it will have a LOT of improvements (seriously, folks are going to like it). Also remember this list assumes customs are off and that Miis have access to all of their moves. So let's get on with the tier list!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories. (Please for the love of all that is good in the world read that paragraph. The number of people who say "there's too many tiers" each month is enough to make my head hurt.)

ONE LAST NOTE: Remember that three characters were just added to the game, so consider that when seeing how far some characters moved down (as at first glance it might look like a lot more than you would think).

Spoiler

(S)(13.75 | ±0) (13.18 | ±0)
(A+) (12.46 | ±0) (12.43 | ±0) (12.19 | +1)
(A) (11.96 | +3) (11.74 | ±0) (11.52 | ±0) (11.3 | +3) (11.07 | -5) (10.95 | ±0)
(A-) (10.94 | -1) (10.89 | ±0) (10.88 | -1) (10.86 | -4) 15 (10.37 | -2) (10.26 | ±0)
(B+) (9.98 | -2) (9.90 | +3) (9.79 | +2) (9.78 | -6) (9.7 | -5) (9.66 | +3) (9.57 | -1) (9.4 | -4) (9.33 | -8) (9.31 | -10) (9.07 | -9)
(B) (8.81 | -5) (8.72 | +13) (8.64 | -4) (8.6 | -7) (8.59 | -3) (8.51 | +7) (8.24 | -4)(8.11 | -1) (8 | -9)
(B-) (7.64 | -9) (7.54 | -1) (7.49 | -3) (7.46 | -9) (7.17 | -9) (7.09 | -7) (7.03 | -5) (7.02 | -5)
(C+) (6.96 | +4) (6.81 | -13) (6.77 | -4) (6.65 | -7)(6.57 | -5) (6.53 | -5) (6.5 | -1) (6.41 | -5) (6.4 | -7)
(C) (5.88 | -6)

I really think looking at this that a few spots are a bit confusing (someone will show off what characters buffs can do soon enough) but is still seriously interesting to look at and discuss. With that, I leave you all to discuss your thoughts on the list: enjoy!

I see Ike and Link climbing to around B+. A- would be good, but there are only so many Ike and Link players out there, let alone the ones that enter tournaments, but I'd love to see it happen.

Zelda is sacked in the bottom for the second game in a row. I figured Mewtwo, Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena, and Ganondorf would be clocked in the bottom. Mario & Captain Falcon are in a nice place near the top, but I expected them to be higher. Ness in A is a surprise almost, but I've played some really good ones. Bowser's a B-, which is still good. I think Ryu and Roy's high placement is still early.

Definitely going to start playing some secondaries to see what I can find, especially for Samus, ZSS, and the like. I can definitely see Palutena being low-tier, especially since her customs make her soar to A+.

 

[Nu~]

Oh right.

Still I think Megaman has more than enough horizontal pressure. He has diagonal pressure with metal blade but he gets even more of it with Metal Blade and Danger Wrap.

Edit: Now that I've thought about it for more than a minute the KO power is a pretty big deal. I'm not too scared of jumping into a metal blade but I am scared of jumping into a danger wrap.

It does have very low priority though.

Mega man has to time it right, or the opponent can just eat through it with any attack and hit mega man right through.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd be interested in hearing this. I'm guessing it's about Danger Wrap's ability to throw out a move that kills without doing something as commital as usmash, his lowest commital kill move on the ground.

It isn't the kill power of danger wrap that makes it good, it's the coverage. Even if it didn't kill, it'd be a great move simply because it restricts the opponents options in the air.

Of course killing is great but due to the low priority and rather telegraphed timing/trajectory, I'd say at top play you'll get about as many kills off them trying to avoid it and catching them than it will kill them itself.

Tornado hold and shadow shuriken also provide matchup specific coverage.

 

[Lavani]

Oh and a kind-of late reply to the notion of Lucina losing her niche after 1.0.8 buffed Marth and introduced Roy that seemed to be going on earlier, the buffed nair and no need for precision for hitstun/kills has given her this:

I didn't do extensive comparisons with Marth yet, but sour nair doesn't combo as early and it didn't seem like tipper nair's spacing matched what would be needed for tipper fsmash, so I don't think it's remotely as viable for him, and Roy has 1 more frame of landing lag on nair + 4 more frames startup on fsmash.

While her gameplan might lack potential depth compared to the other FE swordsmen, she still got the same buffs Marth got, and her consistency has its merits.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Did I get a tag because Lucina is fsmash the character?

 

[Blobface]

If only some of the best characters didn't get better, they might have a future.

Pardon my "quoting a small portion of a post", but I just wanted you to elaborate on this. This sentiment has always been confusing to me since the only top characters I can think of that really obviously get better in customs are Rosalina and Pikachu. Other top tiers have usable, but not better, customs.

(C+) (6.57 | -5)

Man, no respect for das Dorf* this month. Considering that opinions vary wildly, I'm just curious: how do you all feel about Ganondorf? I've heard everything from bottom tier to high tier.

*this means "the village"

 

[DunnoBro]

Sonic and pikachu are the only top tiers directly superior in customs. Rosalina while her specials are more usable, has to deal with way more overall bad MUs now since people have anti-luma options all over. (Zigzag bodies luma and she can't even gpull it, for example)

Like her MU vs sheik is way worse due to penetrating needles. Luma warp and laser bits don't really help with the type of spacing sheik generally utilizes.

I think sheik is overall less polarizing in customs too. No way is she still the best there.

 

[Ikes]

It's more that it covers a literal hole in Mega's keep away game. Metal Blade and Crash Bomber both cover horizontal area (along with standard pellets), while his Up Air and Up Smash covers vertical area. This leaves an area diagonally above Mega Man that he can't cover without committing to an aerial or that outranges his aerials entirely. This is where Danger Wrap comes in, as that diagonal trajectory is absolutely perfect for people who like to jump over Mega Man's projectiles who are not directly above him. The fact that it kills is just gravy.

it also combos into hyper bomb, what i consider to be megaman's best neutral B custom move.

 

[NairWizard]

I can't wait for people to implement perfect pivoting more into their games for zoning/approaching in neutral. The cool thing about this technique is that it's not just flashy; it looks very practical.




I'm especially scared of the day when Luigis are going to implement this into their games, because Luigi has the second highest perfect pivot distance in the game (next to Falcon), and that kind of mobility on a character like Luigi is just absurd, combined with his already great initial dash.

 

[Minordeth]

Ganon has been my gateway character into every iteration of smash since Melee. I think he fairs reasonably well in Sm4sh, but placing him into a tier is always exceedingly difficult because he is probably the only character with a kit based around instant death. His jab does 10% for god's sake. He still can't approach and his disadvantage state is terrible, but he has quick, explosive moves that can easily shift momentum. His dash attack is probably one of the top three in the game and he is the only character with a travelling command grab. His F and D-tilts are fantastic moves, and his U-smash and the utter lack of end-lag makes up a potent kit that works well for conditioning, so he doesn't have to rely quite as hard on just reads and reactions.

I'd put him in mid, without customs, because what good is an MU chart when any MU ends in 4 reads? With customs he probably touches high tier, because he gets more reliable tools against the top tiers.

 

[Lavani]

Did I get a tag because Lucina is fsmash the character?

You may have.

 

[Shaya]

Re:

People forget something pretty vital about their forward tilts, hence not really having a full grasp of the move before making comment. They're Sakurai angles.
This means that after a certain amount of knockback, Pit's becomes 45 degrees and DI-able while Dark Pit's is remaining as a semi-spike that sets up tech chases or low to the ground landing traps for a bit longer (like up to the 80%s IIRC).

From @Wintropic Kitten's "Dark Pit is more horizontal" theory mention, I guess that's maybe why people say this (along with side-b). Pit on the other hand would be forward tilting into arrow aiming because he'd be dealing with air born opponents at a lot more varying launch angles if he ever chose to ftilt someone.

-

And yeah, Lucina nair to fsmash is definitely a thing, and it's a lot easier to set up than on Marth. But he can generally tipper forward/up tilt from it which the former can be quite strong. BUT Stutter Stepping, an underutilized tool for this game (in Brawl it was required for guaranteed throw combos / "how to **** up MK"), gives a LOT of variance in distance for forward smash especially as an arcing move. The Neutral Air's growth/base are the same between them but Lucina's is 2.375 damage to Marth's 2.0 (same base/growth for tipper too but it's 3 damage, that's a much larger difference and would mean tipper single nair could be comboing into feasible tippers 70-90% by guestimate in contrast to Lucina's, while Marth's regular is probably looking at 150%ish?).
Overall though I'd say it's more considerate to her as a consistency thing than Marth; I wonder how intentional this niche independence was? Buffed Jab is insanely stronger for Marth IMO (because it sets up into tippers like crazy as I've said before).

 

[BSP]

CEO did little to change my opinion that Sheik/Sonic/Rosa/Pika/ZSS are the true "top tiers" and belong in a separate tier to the rest of the cast. None of them have truly exploitable, polarizing weaknesses apart from ZSS having the worst grab in the game, but she's so overtuned in every other way it doesn't hold her back.

ZSS' grab is bad, but it's not Pac-Man level bad. At least her throws lead to KO setups. Meanwhile he's stuck with a wonky grab loaded with dead zones and the most ending lag in the game.

I think characters like Fox, Ness, Luigi and Diddy are right below the top tiers, and the gap isn't massive, but they're further down because they do have weaknesses that matter. Ness for example has bad recovery and below average mobility, while Luigi's range and mobility are both pretty bad.

I'm wondering how long it's going to take for Luigi's awful mobility to get exploited. IMO for a top tier character, he's got some questionable MUs scattered about the mid tiers, along with losing (badly?) to the two best characters in the game.

 

[Zionaze]

Oh and a kind-of late reply to the notion of Lucina losing her niche after 1.0.8 buffed Marth and introduced Roy that seemed to be going on earlier, the buffed nair and no need for precision for hitstun/kills has given her this:

I didn't do extensive comparisons with Marth yet, but sour nair doesn't combo as early and it didn't seem like tipper nair's spacing matched what would be needed for tipper fsmash, so I don't think it's remotely as viable for him, and Roy has 1 more frame of landing lag on nair + 4 more frames startup on fsmash.

While her gameplan might lack potential depth compared to the other FE swordsmen, she still got the same buffs Marth got, and her consistency has its merits.

Don't know much about Lucina but I often do SH First hit of DB then first hit of Nair into a Smash. Is that a thing?

 

[Antonykun]

ZSS' grab is bad, but it's not Pac-Man level bad. At least her throws lead to KO setups. Meanwhile he's stuck with a wonky grab loaded with dead zones and the most ending lag in the game.



I'm wondering how long it's going to take for Luigi's awful mobility to get exploited. IMO for a top tier character, he's got some questionable MUs scattered about the mid tiers, along with losing (badly?) to the two best characters in the game.

its going to be a while before Luigi gets his mobility abused by a large scale of the base most people who play smash competitively/pseudo competitively (myself included) have no where near the finesse in mobility to expose Luigi

I guess you can say Luigi is Smash 4 equivalent to Melee Ganon with a few more tricks to make him overall much better

 

[Shaya]

As a tether grab, Zero Suit's is the best, or at least was, those worse characters getting end lag buffs #_#
Huge disjointed range that travels pretty fast once out, stays out for a while, etc. If we include zair capabilities into it I feel confident that hers is the most useful.
Oh and her grab rewards are better too, bar Toon Link/Villager having kill throws. But most characters are dying to dthrow up air vertically earlier than theirs would be killing.

Don't know much about Lucina but I often do SH First hit of DB then first hit of Nair into a Smash. Is that a thing?

DB into nair I don't believe is as early as nair into fsmash will. Marth needs tipper db1s for comboing into uair/nair at like 130%odd when I was doing pre-WiiU 3DS stuff.

 

[FullMoon]

As a tether grab, Zero Suit's is the best, or at least was, those worse characters getting end lag buffs #_#
Huge disjointed range that travels pretty fast once out, stays out for a while, etc. If we include zair capabilities into it I feel confident that hers is the most useful.
Oh and her grab rewards are better too, bar Toon Link/Villager having kill throws. But most characters are dying to dthrow up air vertically earlier than theirs would be killing.

When it comes to grab reward from a tether, I think Lucas might compete with ZSS. 3 kill throws that cover pretty much every direction and so Lucas always can kill you with a grab no matter where in the stage you are or what direction he's facing and one combo throw that also has a kill setup that is far from guaranteed but it's still a thing. Lucas's B-Throw at the ledge kills really early too, not to Ness levels but still.

 

[A_Kae]

So I'll just put some numbers to what @ Shaya said.

Nair hits on frames 6 and 7, and has 12 frames of landing lag. We don't care about total frames here, since we'll be landing well before that. Let's assuming the hit happens on F6, and landing happens on F7. That means that an action can occur on frame 20. So, we need 13 frames of hitstun to be able to act before the opponent, plus however long it takes for the next attack to hit. F-Tilt hits on F8, F-smash hits on F11, U-Tilt hits on F6. Those are the frames that the moves will actually be hitting on. not necessarily when they start. So f-tilt needs 21 frames, f-smash 24, u-tilt 19. Let me know if anything here is wrong, because counting frames is hard and I might be off by a bit. Also because I changed some of the data for when stuff is happening, I might have missed changing something. I'd be surprised if this isn't all off by a bit.

Here it is anyways.

Knockback Data:
Marth Tip: 3%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.
Marth Non-Tip: 2%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.
Lucina: 2.375%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.

Hitstun Data vs Marth (90 weight)
Marth Tip 50%: 19
Marth Tip 100%: 23
Marth Tip 150%: 26
Marth Non-Tip 50%: 18
Marth Non-Tip 100%: 21
Marth Non-Tip 150%: 24
Lucina 50%: 18
Lucina 100%: 22
Lucina 150%: 25

Remember Stutter Step for spacing f-smashes. And that goes for everyone with every character.

 

[Zionaze]

What do you even call Villagers grab? Not quite a "grab" and not quite a "tether" either. Kinda like Yoshi and Olimars grab. BowJr, Pacman and Greninja(?) also have these kind of grabs

 

[A_Kae]

What do you even call Villagers grab? Not quite a "grab" and not quite a "tether" either. Kinda like Yoshi and Olimars grab. BowJr and Greninja also have these kind of grabs

Qualifies as a tether to me. It's disjointed, which is what's important. Having stupid long range is just a plus for other tethers like the links and samuses.

Edit: Disjoint is what qualifies as a tether to me, not what's most important for a grab.

 

[C0rvus]

What do you even call Villagers grab? Not quite a "grab" and not quite a "tether" either. Kinda like Yoshi and Olimars grab. BowJr and Greninja also have these kind of grabs

Most often, they are referred to as "bad grabs". Not a very technical term, but it gets the job done.

I would also lump Pac Man into that group, he doesn't have a tether, more a tractor beam I guess.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't get why Zard dropped with the huge buffs to his throw game.

I don't think he can be that low in Smash 4 with a move like that.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Minor question, but is there a reason perfect pivoting is receiving more attention here than in brawl (I tested it and perfect pivoting worked in that game as well)?

 

[Shaya]

My stance on Zard is "you buffed his rewards from grab; meh". "He's got the best non-tether grab range! Kinda meh still..."
On a lot of characters this would be super-huge. But Zard is still shown himself to be a struggling character even with a megaton of strength in his options (hmm, sounds like a heavyweight/grappler to me). He doesn't approach well at all, even with one of the better dash speeds. His punish options outside of grabs is still very poor.
What does he have? Very solid walling / anti-approach options.
But his weaknesses are still crippling to a character's full viability.

Zard still has a dysfunctional aerial game, poor approach and a disadvantage state of "rock smash" [sole options are not that good].

He's stronger in match ups he had merits in or was already capable against with these buffs for certain. But he received close to nothing that'll help his poor match ups... which is quite a large chunk of characters.

 

[FullMoon]

Most often, they are referred to as "bad grabs". Not a very technical term, but it gets the job done.

I actually laughed at this because it's so sad yet true.

Oh man, Greninja's standing grab.

I cry everytime.

 

[A_Kae]

Minor question, but is there a reason perfect pivoting is receiving more attention here than in brawl (I tested it and perfect pivoting worked in that game as well)?

Perfect Pivoting initiates a dash twice. (or at least, I think it does) Since starting a dash risks tripping, it's a big risk.

Same reason why some other dash techs weren't widely used in brawl, but are getting more attention now. Fox-Trotting is another example.

It's a risk:reward thing, and with tripping gone, the risk is way lower, so people notice the reward more.

 

[Antonykun]

Qualifies as a tether to me. It's disjointed, which is what's important. Having stupid long range is just a plus for other tethers like the links and samuses.

i wouldn't be surised if bowser's garb has longer range than Villagers...