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Character Competitive Impressions

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ZSS to bae 4 life

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Sheik only has 1 bad matchup and that's rosalina and rosalina has few losing matchups one of them being pikachu .
Mario<Sheik 35 65 Sheiks Favour
Mario<Rosa 40 60 Rosalina's Favour
Mario>Pika 55 45 Mario's favour
Mario<Luigi 70 30 Luigi's favour
Mario>ZSS 70 30 Mario's favour

My opinion in some of mario's top tier matchups
 
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Shaya

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Welcome to Smashboards, but we try to avoid non-backed up conjecture in this thread/section. For everything you've said someone is going to ask why because they likely don't agree/understand your perspective.
 
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A_Kae

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Sheik only has 1 bad matchup and that's rosalina and rosalina has few losing matchups one of them being pikachu .
Mario<Sheik 35 65 Sheiks Favour
Mario<Rosa 40 60 Rosalina's Favour
Mario>Pika 55 45 Mario's favour
Mario<Luigi 70 30 Luigi's favour
Mario>ZSS 70 30 Mario's favour

My opinion in some of mario's top tier matchups
If you want to discuss matchups for Mario, you should do it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/world-8-the-mario-match-up-index-8-2-luigi-doc.387070/

If you do, you should be prepared to give actual evidence for your claims. 70:30 ratios in particular are essentially unwinnable without there being a large skill gap with the two players.
 
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Vipermoon

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So I'll just put some numbers to what @ Shaya Shaya said.

Nair hits on frames 6 and 7, and has 12 frames of landing lag. We don't care about total frames here, since we'll be landing well before that. Let's assuming the hit happens on F6, and landing happens on F7. That means that an action can occur on frame 20. So, we need 13 frames of hitstun to be able to act before the opponent, plus however long it takes for the next attack to hit. F-Tilt hits on F8, F-smash hits on F11, U-Tilt hits on F6. Those are the frames that the moves will actually be hitting on. not necessarily when they start. So f-tilt needs 21 frames, f-smash 24, u-tilt 19. Let me know if anything here is wrong, because counting frames is hard and I might be off by a bit. Also because I changed some of the data for when stuff is happening, I might have missed changing something. I'd be surprised if this isn't all off by a bit.

Here it is anyways.

Knockback Data:
Marth Tip: 3%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.
Marth Non-Tip: 2%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.
Lucina: 2.375%, 30 BKB, 50 KBG.

Hitstun Data vs Marth (90 weight)
Marth Tip 50%: 19
Marth Tip 100%: 23
Marth Tip 150%: 26
Marth Non-Tip 50%: 18
Marth Non-Tip 100%: 21
Marth Non-Tip 150%: 24
Lucina 50%: 18
Lucina 100%: 22
Lucina 150%: 25

Remember Stutter Step for spacing f-smashes. And that goes for everyone with every character.
And don't forget Nair to Jab. That one is pretty tasty.
 

A_Kae

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And don't forget Nair to Jab. That one is pretty tasty.
Oh yeah, Nair > Jab is great. I didn't mention it because I was just supplementing Shaya's stuff with some numbers. Thanks for reminding me, that's definitely an important one.

Jab hits on frame 5, so you need 18 frames of hitstun for it to work. 3 less than f-tilt.

Also hitstun at 0% for nair:

Marth Tip 0%: 15
Marth Non-Tip 0%: 15
Lucina 0%: 15

15 for all. At low percents like that, you see very little variance.

Edit: Jab 1 should start working at 35%. That's assuming I've got my numbers right here, totally possible that they're wrong.
 
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Browny

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If you want to discuss matchups for Mario, you should do it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/world-8-the-mario-match-up-index-8-2-luigi-doc.387070/

If you do, you should be prepared to give actual evidence for your claims. 70:30 ratios in particular are essentially unwinnable without there being a large skill gap with the two players.
A 70:30 implies that in 100 matches, the 30 character would win 30 times and in a 2/3 set, that would translate to a 9% chance of winning the set. I wouldn't say thats too bad.

The term 'unwinnable' is reserved for players entering a tournament that Zero is registered for.
 

A_Kae

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A 70:30 implies that in 100 matches, the 30 character would win 30 times and in a 2/3 set, that would translate to a 9% chance of winning the set. I wouldn't say thats too bad.

The term 'unwinnable' is reserved for players entering a tournament that Zero is registered for.
I understand what you're saying but I very rarely see matchup ratios used in that way. Typically, I find that 70:30 does usually mean almost unwinnable/unloseable without a large difference in skill.

It's why I generally prefer the + or - 1-4 system. Less confusion over what it actually means.

Edit: Also @ Shaya Shaya said this awhile ago, so I'm not alone in my opinion here. I've also seen some other similar posts, but I don't really care to dig them up right now. What I don't see is matchup ratios being used to say that one character wins every x out 100 matches.

unwinnable doesn't mean 100:0. Once you get towards 65:35 or worse you're starting to look at a match up that shouldn't be winnable against two evenly skilled players, let alone ones which have skill discrepancies.
This post: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-559#post-18924310
 
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Hippieslayer

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Ehh I'm gonna have to dispute that. She gets a decent amount from customs besides a cheesy grab.

Explosive Flame is a great long-distance poke / damage-dealer that pierces shield on the last frame, essentially making it (to quote a user on this very site that I can't for the life of me recall) a "ranged command grab".

Super Speed is very difficult to intercept and sets up for follow-ups with her dash, (pivot) grab, n-air, f-air, d-air, b-air and u-smash.

Jump Glide allows her to control the stage from any angle and get some pretty nice setups going on with her aerials and jab.

Yeah, all of her good customs are essentially variations on the theme of "set up and go ham", but it at least offers her versatility and an abundance of approach options, which she just doesn't have in her default set.

EDIT: ffs people you type fast

or i guess i just type slow



Mix it up. You can't afford to be predictable in this situation; trying for a d-air every time, for example, is a surefire way to get shield-grabbed.

Understand how your opponent will react, condition them if you can. Try for a d-air occasionally, and then if you see them shielding on reaction, fastfall and dash / pivot grab. N-air can work to play keepaway if they try for a jump at you, while b-air will usually sweetspot if you're at a safe enough distance to fall to the side and get them to chase you.
<- called it a ranged command grab earlier in this thread

Agree that with Palutena you have to mix things up, apart from her lightweight dash grab her kit is really easy to counter if she gets predictable. Jump glide helps with that, and it's great when you're in lightweight cool down snail mode and you've used super speed too.

Explosive flame is also underrated, it adds a lot of threat in a form which she simply doesn't have otherwise. It's extremely underused because of how punishable it is if it misses owing to its monstrous endlag. Moreover the startup is such that it isn't easy to land either.

However, auto reticle also suffers from start and end lag to a lesser degree. But unlike EF its unpredictable, not rewarding, never changes a matchup, and doesn't add the constant threat of a ranged command grab.

Explosive Flame has a ton of boons to make up for these weaknesses unlike auto reticle:

- allows Palutena to maintain threat at midrange, making matchups against characters which keep just far enough away to react to super speed while they pressure Palutena with ranged attacks or scout for a chance to get in close and wreak havoc (such as Diddy, Sheik and Fox) a bit more doable.

-has several niche areas of usage in which it is REALLY good

-edgeguarding: linear horizontal recoveries get outright destroyed, allows Palutena to punish a lot of attempts to get back on stage from up in the corner even without lightweight in ways she can't else wise, covers a ****ton of ledge option with its long lasting hitbox, the same long lasting hit box pwns anything which doesn't sweet spot the ledge, it can catch people lingering while simultaneously removing most of their ledge options, and finally specific recoveries are not good against it (tethers, aethers among others).

-great at punishing landings, this cannot be stressed enough

-palutena has grabs and attacks which put people in perfect positions for hitting them with EF (f-throw, fair, bair, nair etc, I like nair>second jump>EF), this becomes a big deal if you know how to use relevants at's cpmbining these with lightweight and super speed, more on this later

-adds lots of new options making Palutena less predictable increasing the effectiveness of her other moves

-if you hit someone with it while you have lightweight on (easier than you think because people don't expect it) it puts the opponent into a godawful position which can be converted into a kill

-the moves kills at reasonable percents if landed on an opponent who is far enough above the stage

-eats air dodges and spot dodges for breakfast

The problem is it takes a lot of practice to use EF to its fullest. When used at its fullest it's waaaaay more effective than if not.

There is tons which needs to be learned. First of all, all the reverse AT's including wavebouncing need to be mastered, secondly doing these out of super speed and out of quick jumps, dashes, and dashes to jumps of all kinds while in lightweight without losing accuracy is also crucial.

When you have that down the effective range of EF doubles, it's reward doubles, the number of situations in which it can be effectively used doubles which in turn makes it easier to not use it predictably and risk a punish.

In my opinion a true Palutena main needs EF, I don't know what the hell Aerolink is doing, either he just doesn't get just how badass the move becomes when combined with AT's and super speed+lightweight or he's just lazy.

Seriously quickly dashing and rar double jumping while in lightweight into a wavebounced EF to kill an opponent who was far away up in the air at a seemingly safe distance and whose air dodge failed to save him or her, that's satisfying as hell.

EF is the real deal if mastered, it adds to the already absurd range at which she can dangerous with her customs, it makes her a lot more volatile, and auto reticle sucks.

Palutena mains stop using AR and get to work.
 
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Luco

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I don't get why Zard dropped with the huge buffs to his throw game.

I don't think he can be that low in Smash 4 with a move like that.
For the third time, 3 DLC characters were added, causing everyone below them to technically drop 3 spots - Practically, Charizard went up by 2 places, which is at least a start.

My stance on Zard is "you buffed his rewards from grab; meh". "He's got the best non-tether grab range! Kinda meh still..."
On a lot of characters this would be super-huge. But Zard is still shown himself to be a struggling character even with a megaton of strength in his options (hmm, sounds like a heavyweight/grappler to me). He doesn't approach well at all, even with one of the better dash speeds. His punish options outside of grabs is still very poor.
What does he have? Very solid walling / anti-approach options.
But his weaknesses are still crippling to a character's full viability.

Zard still has a dysfunctional aerial game, poor approach and a disadvantage state of "rock smash" [sole options are not that good].

He's stronger in match ups he had merits in or was already capable against with these buffs for certain. But he received close to nothing that'll help his poor match ups... which is quite a large chunk of characters.
I don't know if I can agree. I think what's more important here is that Charizard has become a lot more stage dependent than he used to, which can be a good or a bad thing (when it comes to overall viability, probably a bad thing) - the obvious thing here is stage bans give him a world of pain, but there are also characters that just perform on his good stages... but better. I think these may be what's keeping Charizard on the low down. I'm inclined to think where grab wasn't a particularly awesome punish before, now Charizard at least has the threat of 90% kills in neutral that aren't... Well, not a grab.

Like, he's certainly got a lot of glaring flaws, I wouldn't try to defend him there, but I think grab was a large - but polarising - advantage he got out of the patch and just the threat of a grab at those percents makes me really scared to approach. I think characters that force Charizard's approach don't have as much to fear, and in this sense many of his most difficult MUs didn't become so much better, on the other hand Charizard has gained a real threat that isn't countered by shielding. Matches are dynamic and he's not always going to approach, the opponent gets tense and they feel they have to act first, suddenly Seismic toss into oblivion.

I'm perhaps more optimistic about these changes, but I'm not sure how many people noticed Trela sitting happily at 25th in CEO with his little triplet of mains. I think it has the potential to occur more often where it didn't really before.
 

TriTails

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Sheik only has 1 bad matchup and that's rosalina and rosalina has few losing matchups one of them being pikachu .
Mario<Sheik 35 65 Sheiks Favour
Mario<Rosa 40 60 Rosalina's Favour
Mario>Pika 55 45 Mario's favour
Mario<Luigi 70 30 Luigi's favour
Mario>ZSS 70 30 Mario's favour

My opinion in some of mario's top tier matchups
Mario and Luigi is 30:70.

I'm just gonna throw my character outta a window now.
its going to be a while before Luigi gets his mobility abused by a large scale of the base most people who play smash competitively/pseudo competitively (myself included) have no where near the finesse in mobility to expose Luigi

I guess you can say Luigi is Smash 4 equivalent to Melee Ganon with a few more tricks to make him overall much better
Hell. People already do. Shoutouts to Ito. And Wario players.

Luigi just can get the lead very easily if you mess up. You can argue X character can camp Luigi out because they have better mobility but Luigi tend to get the stock lead first unless they can camp him out with something other than mobility specs, or there's skill differences, or you are named Wario and his Waft.

I'd be interested when PP gets its own flashlight. Perhaps it might help Luigi's mobility. But not expecting the food comes early. Even so, I'm not expecting it to be extremely delicious.
 

bc1910

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Greninja is not worse than Kirby or Robin, like what? People forget that through sheer mobility he can speed camp a lot of characters and win that way, it's lame as hell but it's unlikely he'd ever drop into the bottom half of the roster purely because of that. And he's just a better character than Kirby and Robin anyway, Toon Link is debatable but if TL's meta doesn't develop beyond Bombs: The Character then Greninja will end up better.

@BSP I think ZSS's grab is the worst in the game because it has the most reactable startup at 15f. Also Pac-Man's has these weird active frames that can allow it to catch people spotdodging sometimes. I'm not considering how good their throws are, just talking raw grabs. But yeah, in practice, Pac-Man and a couple other characters probably have worse grabs because at least she can combo into her grab.
Re: :4darkpit::4pit:

People forget something pretty vital about their forward tilts, hence not really having a full grasp of the move before making comment. They're Sakurai angles.
This means that after a certain amount of knockback, Pit's becomes 45 degrees and DI-able while Dark Pit's is remaining as a semi-spike that sets up tech chases or low to the ground landing traps for a bit longer (like up to the 80%s)
I do know that they're Sakurai Angles and you do have a point; they start to diverge at ~35-50%. During this percent range Pit's will set up tech chases, after 50% they can jump or attack out. Before this, landing traps are possible on low to the ground opponents but no real frame traps or follow-ups can happen. DP's tech chase percent range is about 80-95%, and before this he can set up landing traps and combo with it.

So I should probably rephrase and say that DP's is strictly worse after 90%, where his still has low knockback that doesn't set up good edgeguards or combo whereas Pits' knockback is high enough to start edgeguarding really nicely. DP's IS better as a trapping tool or tech chase setup before that, but the traps are limited to landing traps. And actually, I don't think the tech chases are very good.

DP's tech chases aren't very rewarding. The move has high-ish ending lag so you have to run after your opponent to tech chase, thus you can't hit them with anything you can't do out of a run. At the 80-95% range they're too low to be killed by Fthrow but too high to be combo'd by anything else. At Pit's 35-50% they can get combo'd really well by Nair, Dthrow > stuff, etc.

Neither of them get true frame traps or follow-ups from their Ftilt's and ultimately I think Pit's is better because he can really use the extra knockback at high percent since he's a character that struggles to kill, and his tech chases are actually more rewarding, they just happen at a lower percent. Landing traps working for longer is the only true advantage DP can boast, the rest is pretty debatable. Once again it's a case of DP's having 1 or 2 advantages that aren't worth picking over the original's because they're not worth all the drawbacks.
 
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A_Kae

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@BSP I think ZSS's grab is the worst in the game because it has the most reactable startup at 15f. Also Pac-Man's has these weird active frames that can allow it to catch people spotdodging sometimes. I'm not considering how good their throws are, just talking raw grabs. But yeah, in practice, Pac-Man and a couple other characters probably have worse grabs because at least she can combo into her grab.
ZSS grab is actually 16f. And that's a good thing. You don't want her to be able to get grabs like other characters.

Edit: Read it wrong.
 
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TriTails

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Keep in mind Pit's F-tilt can KO at high percents with rage. With such a long-reaching move and fairly short start up, Pit can at least KO without doing something like F-air them off-stage (Which is fairly hard because the hitbox is thinner than a paper. Same goes for B-air) or smash attack them, which all of them are fairly risky (F-smash is the fastest F-smash, but it's fairly punishable on shield and whiff. U-smash has that 'doesn't hit short characters' syndrome, and D-smash is weak). Though, the move itself is pretty bad at killing, BUT at least the higher knockback can throw characters off-stage more reliably.

IIRC, DP's F-tilt is almost 3 times weaker than Pit's.

@BSP I think ZSS's grab is the worst in the game because it has the most reactable startup at 15f. Also Pac-Man's has these weird active frames that can allow it to catch people spotdodging sometimes. I'm not considering how good their throws are, just talking raw grabs. But yeah, in practice, Pac-Man and a couple other characters probably have worse grabs because at least she can combo into her grab.
Pac-Man is the worst to me. Sure, it has meaty hitbox. But it's probably the most punishable grab in the game and the reward for doing it is just... garbage compared to the risk doing it. I imagine people would go 'I served you my shield. What are you going to do?' when fighting a Pac.

This is a question I've been meaning to ask Pac-Man mains. How are you going to deal with shields? Shields are... well, strong in this game. This may have been asked before, but I'm just curious.

I wonder if this weakness will be exploited in the future...
 
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Nu~

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Keep in mind Pit's F-tilt can KO at high percents with rage. With such a long-reaching move and fairly short start up, Pit can at least KO without doing something like F-air them off-stage (Which is fairly hard because the hitbox is thinner than a paper. Same goes for B-air) or smash attack them, which all of them are fairly risky (F-smash is the fastest F-smash, but it's fairly punishable on shield and whiff. U-smash has that 'doesn't hit short characters' syndrome, and D-smash is weak). Though, the move itself is pretty bad at killing, BUT at least the higher knockback can throw characters off-stage more reliably.

IIRC, DP's F-tilt is almost 3 times weaker than Pit's.


Pac-Man is the worst to me. Sure, it has meaty hitbox. But it's probably the most punishable grab in the game and the reward for doing it is just... garbage compared to the risk doing it. I imagine people would go 'I served you my shield. What are you going to do?' when fighting a Pac.

This is a question I've been meaning to ask Pac-Man mains. How are you going to deal with shields? Shields are... well, strong in this game. This may have been asked before, but I'm just curious.

I wonder if this weakness will be exploited in the future...
We already have trampoline which ignores shields.
 

bc1910

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Pac-Man is the worst to me. Sure, it has meaty hitbox. But it's probably the most punishable grab in the game and the reward for doing it is just... garbage compared to the risk doing it. I imagine people would go 'I served you my shield. What are you going to do?' when fighting a Pac.

This is a question I've been meaning to ask Pac-Man mains. How are you going to deal with shields? Shields are... well, strong in this game. This may have been asked before, but I'm just curious.

I wonder if this weakness will be exploited in the future...
I'm no Pac-main but I can tell you what they'll say. Trampoline beats shields. Which is actually only true for certain characters because some just don't care about being in the air against Pac-man. And trampoline doesn't take your double jump, which is crucial.

Although if Pac-man had a good way to beat shields he'd probably be top tier. He can already pressure them from afar with hydrant and safe projectiles pretty well.

EDIT: Heh, I hadn't even read the above post.
 
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Nu~

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I'm no Pac-main but I can tell you what they'll say. Trampoline beats shields. Which is actually only true for certain characters because some just don't care about being in the air against Pac-man. And trampoline doesn't take your double jump, which is crucial.

Although if Pac-man had a good way to beat shields he'd probably be top tier. He can already pressure them from afar with hydrant and safe projectiles pretty well.

EDIT: Heh, I hadn't even read the above post.
Few characters have a way to approach Pacman from that height though. When a trampoline pulls you up with us directly on the other side, you have to find a way to beat an invincible utilt, another trampoline OoS, and our other anti air options such as bell.
 
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TriTails

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Trampoline is F1, sure. Shield are ignored by it, sure. But how are you going to do it? People sit there with their shield. You're not going to go in their face and press Up-B without getting shieldgrabbed/Up-B OoS'd.
 

Nu~

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Trampoline is F1, sure. Shield are ignored by it, sure. But how are you going to do it? People sit there with their shield. You're not going to go in their face and press Up-B without getting shieldgrabbed/Up-B OoS'd.
Fair a hydrant at them and run behind it. If they shield, they eat a trampoline + the hydrant that was just launched. If they jump, cover their landing.
We have ways to deal with shielding, we just don't have the luxury of an easy grab. We could also DITCIT (smash 4's version of a forward glide toss) a melon at you and grab you during your shield stun since we'll be right behind it.
 
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bc1910

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Few characters have a way to approach Pacman from that height though. When a trampoline pulls you up with us directly on the other side, you have to find a way to beat an invincible utilt, another trampoline OoS, and our other anti air options such as bell.
Well for example, Greninja can DI in the same direction you're going and fastfall to set things back to neutral or maybe even punish you. He can get out of hitstun by autocancelling Fair near the ground if need be, or just Nair on the way down for low landing lag if you don't want to be that precise.

If Pac-Man runs toward you behind a hydrant you should roll behind him if he gets close (but not too close as rolls have 3f vulnerability at the start) because his options out of a pivot will not reach you when you roll, and you can get behind the hydrant. If he catches onto this and doesn't come close enough to trampoline, just sit in shield. Also characters who don't mind being in the air, like Greninja, can jump long before the hydrant reaches them and escape the whole situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these are not strong options, Pac-Man does have some really scary ways to deal with shield and I think they often go underrated. A lot of people probably don't even know that the trampoline causes damage vs shields because Pac-Man hits the opponent on the way up. But (and this isn't a criticism) I think in your enthusiasm you sometimes make it sound like there's no counterplay to some of Pac-Man's options. It's worth remembering that his options against shield, whilst really rewarding, do have a lot of counterplay. They take time to set up and are harder to utilise and less reliable than most characters' options. Makes sense though, that's how he seems to have been balanced.
 
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Nu~

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Well for example, Greninja can DI in the same direction you're going and fastfall to set things back to neutral or maybe even punish you. He can get out of hitstun by autocancelling Fair near the ground if need be, or just Nair on the way down for low landing lag if you don't want to be that precise.

If Pac-Man runs toward you behind a hydrant you should roll behind him if he gets close (but not too close as rolls have 3f vulnerability at the start) because his options out of a pivot will not reach you when you roll, and you can get behind the hydrant. If he catches onto this and doesn't come close enough to trampoline, just sit in shield. Also characters who don't mind being in the air, like Greninja, can jump long before the hydrant reaches them and escape the whole situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these are not strong options, Pac-Man does have some really scary ways to deal with shield and I think they often go underrated. A lot of people probably don't even know that the trampoline causes damage vs shields because Pac-Man hits the opponent on the way up. But (and this isn't a criticism) I think in your enthusiasm you sometimes make it sound like there's no counterplay to some of Pac-Man's options. It's worth remembering that his options against shield, whilst really rewarding, do have a lot of counterplay. They take time to set up and are harder to utilise and less reliable than most characters' options. Makes sense though, that's how he seems to have been balanced.
I don't mean to make it sound like that, but I understand if it can come across that way. His grab was made terrible for a reason so giving him tools that can deal with shield with the exact same reliability as a grab, would just defeat the point.
I tried to get the point across that our options against shield aren't as easy as grabbing, but I guess I didn't do an adequate job.
 

hypersonicJD

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I don't think Mario vs Zero Suit Samus isn't in Mario's favor so badly. I think it's even or Mario has a very slight advantage. I would say: 50:45
 

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Minor question, but is there a reason perfect pivoting is receiving more attention here than in brawl (I tested it and perfect pivoting worked in that game as well)?
Might be due to the whole;
1% chance of tripping when you tap the control stick for a dash or smash attack. Though I'm not sure if it was just me but I 'swear' the chances are increased if you're in the lead . Consecutive perfect pivoting is just asking to be tripped I guess :X
 

PUK

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Might be due to the whole;
1% chance of tripping when you tap the control stick for a dash or smash attack. Though I'm not sure if it was just me but I 'swear' the chances are increased if you're in the lead . Consecutive perfect pivoting is just asking to be tripped I guess :X
No it's not brawl here lol
 

Wintropy

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I don't think Mario vs Zero Suit Samus isn't in Mario's favor so badly. I think it's even or Mario has a very slight advantage. I would say: 50:45
I think you mean 55:45, dear?

Once again it's a case of DP's having 1 or 2 advantages that aren't worth picking over the original's because they're not worth all the drawbacks.
Why does Nairo use Dark Chocolate Pit over Vanilla Pit, pray tell? Is it really due to aesthetics (I've heard tell he's a fan of Dark Pit's theme), since their fundamentals are essentially the same? A sort of "main one, get a second free" deal?

Or does he actually take their differences into account? The only time I recall him favouring Pit is against Nietono's Sheik to take advantage of Upperdash.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I wasn't addressing @ bc1910 bc1910 specifically. The post just reminded me.
 
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Firefoxx

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I think you mean 55:45, dear?



Why does Nairo use Dark Chocolate Pit over Vanilla Pit, pray tell? Is it really due to aesthetics (I've heard tell he's a fan of Dark Pit's theme), since their fundamentals are essentially the same? A sort of "main one, get a second free" deal?

Or does he actually take their differences into account? The only time I recall him favouring Pit is against Nietono's Sheik to take advantage of Upperdash.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I wasn't addressing @ bc1910 bc1910 specifically. The post just reminded me.
Pretty sure Nairo doesn't care that Dark Pit is the lesser of the Kids Icarus and picks him for aesthetic reasons unless the matchup demands Pit for very specific reasons.
 

Fatmanonice

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I don't get why Zard dropped with the huge buffs to his throw game.

I don't think he can be that low in Smash 4 with a move like that.
Because it's all opinion based and, while they're interesting to look at, they lack the credibility and extensive deliberation that Smashboards' official tier lists have. I will say that some characters tend to be higher or lower on these based on popularity alone. I agree with what a number of people have said in that nobody should take a tier placement of Lucas, Roy, or Ryu seriously yet because there's hardly any evidence to back them up. For example, I still think Ryu has a lot of potential but I caught easily be made to eat my words in the coming months because none of them have had time to really prove themselves yet.
 
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FUEGO!

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:4mario: Theory

Mario has the best spread of matchups against Pika, Rosa, and Sheik in the game (excluding ones from the aforementioned trio) imo.

He is known to lose to:
:4luigi:
He probably loses to:
:4sheik: By a slim margin

What else is bad for him? He seems to go even or beat :rosalina: and many feel that he gives:4pikachu:the most trouble.

I can imagine the following are very close to even, but someone who knows these matchups better might be able to give details:
:4fox::4miibrawl::4ness::4sonic:

Among other notable mus, he beats :4falcon: due to falcon's terrible disadvantaged stance, recovery, and surprisingly beatable approach options.

So, here in this meta-driving conglomerate, many users like to point out characters that they believe are slept on. Usually these are low to mid tier characters that are underrepresented. I wouldn't say mario falls into any of that. He is considered high tier by everyone and is very popular. This popularity tends to turn the plumber into an easy mode, easy local-level results character.

But you can't scoff at his mu spread.

Faring well against the top tier and many popular characters below, while going even with almost every remaining high tier (bar a few exceptions) is something no other character can boast unless you are Sheik.

Like Falcon, Mario is being played to appeal to the simple, pick-up-and-go style. This overshadows his true potential. It is simply being hidden or ignored.

The player utilizing most of mario's potential, Ally, is disregarding customs and playstyles that he doesn't like. For this reason, he might get spooked in bracket and lose at a local.

So this is a call to arms. Mario players, start taking names, because I believe the cover face of nintendo in his true form is hiding within this game, waiting to be uncovered through a mass of misrepresentation. The real character we are sleeping on is none other than the first character on the roster.
His true meta according to my friends EZbake Mario: Bthrow>FLUUD>Cape>Fair FOREVER
 

Mario766

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Ally just doesn't like customs, when I talked to him about EVO he said he might look into Mario's customs but it's unlikely. He definitely is the best Mario in Smash 4 by far.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Because it's all opinion based and, while they're interesting to look at, they lack the credibility and extensive deliberation that Smashboards' official tier lists have. I will say that some characters tend to be higher or lower on these based on popularity alone. I agree with what a number of people have said in that nobody should take a tier placement of Lucas, Roy, or Ryu seriously yet because there's hardly any evidence to back them up. For example, I still think Ryu has a lot of potential but I caught easily be made to eat my words in the coming months because none of them have had time to really prove themselves yet.
Official smashboards tier list? I don't see one....
 

bc1910

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Why does Nairo use Dark Chocolate Pit over Vanilla Pit, pray tell? Is it really due to aesthetics (I've heard tell he's a fan of Dark Pit's theme), since their fundamentals are essentially the same? A sort of "main one, get a second free" deal?

Or does he actually take their differences into account? The only time I recall him favouring Pit is against Nietono's Sheik to take advantage of Upperdash.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I wasn't addressing @ bc1910 bc1910 specifically. The post just reminded me.
Edginess.

---------------

Jokes aside I really don't know, to be honest. It probably is just him preferring Dark Pit's theme and aesthetics. I'm the same way, I think DP's palette swaps are way better. And the Pits are SO similar it doesn't really matter which one you pick in most MUs, on a tier list DP would be in the spot directly under Pit. Pit IS better though, as a competitive player I'm surprised Nairo doesn't use Pit more often, but I guess his advantages don't matter often enough for him.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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My stance on Zard is "you buffed his rewards from grab; meh". "He's got the best non-tether grab range! Kinda meh still..."
On a lot of characters this would be super-huge. But Zard is still shown himself to be a struggling character even with a megaton of strength in his options (hmm, sounds like a heavyweight/grappler to me). He doesn't approach well at all, even with one of the better dash speeds. His punish options outside of grabs is still very poor.
What does he have? Very solid walling / anti-approach options.
But his weaknesses are still crippling to a character's full viability.

Zard still has a dysfunctional aerial game, poor approach and a disadvantage state of "rock smash" [sole options are not that good].

He's stronger in match ups he had merits in or was already capable against with these buffs for certain. But he received close to nothing that'll help his poor match ups... which is quite a large chunk of characters.
I can agree his throw changes were to his advantages, I do not agree that this was just a meh.

This is a pretty big deal stage wise and with a lot of match-ups.

What I do not agree with is his punish game being poor, he has a lot of things to threaten with to punish something he can predict or see coming. This is a lot of what the character performs in and what gives him his hard punishes for a bad mistake.

What he does not have is a great approach or a fast way to punish people frame 1-5 outside of Usmash, Grab and Fly, one of which needs them to be airborn the other is an OoS punish that depends on spacing and who he is against. Making his punishes on his grabs, he is like a grappler for how stronger his throw game is now, is a lot stronger.

He has weaknesses, but I wouldn't list it as crippling when he has a lot to make up for it.
 

NairWizard

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So, :4falco:

I've never been this confused on what to think about a character in smash 4 before, not even Ryu, whose kit is really complex.

The buffs from the patch were obviously good, but there are still some problems.

Falco in advantage is crazy. He can get anywhere from 40 to 60% damage (like @ Shaya Shaya said) from any single hit at low %, and from a grab you better believe he's going to get toward the upper end of that range. Falco oozes frame traps and KO potential; his jump height/control of vertical space combined with the impressive coverage of his aerials means that you're often not making it down to the stage against him. Falco doesn't care as much about 5-frames-of-vulnerability airdodges as other characters just because of the size of his aerials; up-air reaches both to the sides and below Falco, while n-air and b-air (and f-air, though it overlaps with n-air) cover everything that up-air doesn't. And if he can't kill you by frame trapping you into b-air, he's now got a pretty impressive set of options for edgeguarding you (b-air was already one of the best edgeguards in the game if you took the sum of lethality+safety+ease-of-use, n-air and f-air linking properly just seals the deal for Falco's edgeplay).

In neutral, he has bad mobility, both on the ground (though initial dash is goodish), and in the air (his vertical reach is great; his horizontal air speed, not so much), but he's also the master of CQC. Once Falco gets in, he gets in. He's the best boxer in the game alongside Ryu--he can even outfootsie Little Mac. His tilts do enormous damage for tilts (10-11%) and have great range, along with his lolframe2whatisthisnonsense jab. He gets a lot out of winning a footsie war, too, since d-tilt and jab can set up into his other moves. His options out of pivot are disgusting.

He also has the typical fastfaller mixups of "will I fastfall grab or will I aerial your shield, or will I just land and jab?" now, since falling up-air is a legitimately good move (and b-air on shield is pretty safe if you're turned in the other direction). His short hop height is super good for this despite his huge full hop. And we all know his smashes are great, up-smash's 1-frame animation buff made it hit behind Falco, and the endlag/coverage was already great. f-smash is the bee's knees.

Anyone with high mobility (which is ZSS/Pikachu/Sonic/Sheik, etc.) is going to be able to lame him out, but it's not too bad. Reflector + lasers and a frame-8 dash attack (which is OK, nothing to write home about but it's not a Marth dash attack) mean that he's comfortable fighting in ranges other than up close, so Falco doesn't just get camped out by projectiles, even if his lasers do suck, though he's not good at actually catching people, which is going to make his life miserable some of the time. Overall, mobility flaws won't be his undoing. Compare him to Luigi, who has about the same mobility (faster run speed/better initial dash vs. better aerial mobility) with similarly huge rewards and KO confirms/edgeguarding potential (Cyclone)--Luigi is obviously a good character, so Falco should be too, since while he lacks fireballs he has a better close-range game and more mixups for playing the neutral.

The problem, and what makes it so hard to properly evaluate Falco, is that in disadvantage, Falco is quite bad. Luigi is theoretically bad too, but when you factor in his frame-3 combo-breaking n-air and the airdodge landings that his floatiness enables, as well as Cyclone both offstage and on, the comparison to Falco gets shot in the foot.

Falco's n-air doesn't really get him out of strings--up-air being frame 7 now means he can fastfall it to get out of traps if you give him any kind of leeway, but how often do you have 7 frames of leeway with juggles like Pikachu up-tilts/up-airs in the game--and his recovery is abusable, not even as good as Fox's imo just because of the distance difference despite the speed advantage.

That said, Falco is still super scary; there was a time when people didn't think highly of Luigi either, and now there are people shouting top 3-10.

Sometimes I think Falco is high tier, and other times I think that he's still low tier. His disadvantaged state may just seal Falco's fate out of top-level competitive viability, but at this point, I'm unsure.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Phantasm to reset to neutral from disadvantage will ALWAYS be a thing.

Falco isnt good or bad.

He is a functional character with a gameplan that will reward you when executed properly. I know at this point we are at the mentality that if its not top ten its garbage which is fine for a tourney mindset, but for the sake of discussion and understanding each character I think its important we acknowledged that not every character is going to be the next Sheik, Sonic, Pika, ect.
 
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Teshie U

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Trampoline is cool and all, but its far less rewarding than a throw in general. Pacman launches himself into the air with his opponent, risks punishment on hit at lower percents and unlike a grab, he doesn't get access to pummel damage/unstaling nor does he get to gain control of the situation by throwing his opponent off stage or setting up combos.

His tether has the range of a good normal grab but some TERRIBLE frame data. The animation isn't even that big, so why it the hitbox even smaller than what is showed.
 

Nobie

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Even after all of the Marth buffs I see people saying that Marth is low tier, that he has a bad neutral game, etc. What are people missing or misunderstanding?
 
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