Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
It's not really the same thing. ZSS with a regular grab would be without question the best character. Lucas just isn't in the same category.
[quote="Smog Frog, post: 19583738, member: 254188".] of course, if he had a regular grab, he'd easily be high tier or better.
[/quote]
ZSS with a regular grab would just be something else man. Although you gotta admit the grab range she has right now is pretty huge. But then again it's a tether grab so that is to be expected
Second longest, I think it is. Maybe with Link's buff that's not true anymore?
Lucas is, at his core, a punish-based character since that's where he usually gets his biggest payoffs. He accomplishes this by being super annoying in neutral with his rope snake and aerial pk fires that can push him backwards to make the move safe, while his potent magnet and quick stick prevent most attempts at camping him back. He has many powerful punishes: Usmash speaks for itself though only on the hardest of reads, fsmash is quite reliable and almost makes up for his slow grab. And of course he has potent combos and killing potential through grabs when he does land them. If you space badly against his shield you're eating an utilt that easily leads to more.i thinkis high mid/bottom of high. his keepaway/walling game is ****ing obnoxious with zair/sh pkf. he does have setups into his grab(advancing zair), so you dont have to get hard reads to grab. in fact, his zair is probably the best in the game. hits lower than most zairs, sets up threatening moves(fsmash and grab mainly, but it can also set up sweetspot fair and ftilt) and it goes through projectiles(idk if this is true for other zairs, but
and now, i do believe he can compete with high/top tiers. i feel he beats
Yes, there are good points to tether grabs. I'm just saying that ZSS has got the other tools to make it not matter so much (I wouldn't want link to lose his tether). Getting consistent grabs is important, and that's what a normal grab would help with a lot. And with the insane grab reward that she has, I think it's totally worth it.
According to my latest testing using the dots that run along the length of Smashville:
Nah, it really doesn't connect that much worse than Brawl did. The main issues with Dancing Blade is DB1 where, like Shaya said, it starts on frame 7 now and lags like crazy. It even lags more than Brawl in the air (not as much of an increase as ground though). Our Jab 1 is the new DB1 that Melee and Brawl had. DB4 Down lags too much now. Let's see...oh and pretty much every hit of Dancing Blade's hitboxes last one frame shorter, a lot like many of Marth's other moves.
Vipermoon
said about disjoint being more important than range...
Unless the opponent has a long ranged tether grab.
I hate ZSS so much. You can't even begin to understand how much I hate her.
That might have something to do with F-smashI like more Lucina than Marth though. I don't know why
I'd like to comment on that Roy Fsmash outranging Marth thing...ROY CAN HAVE ITTo add a bit on to what @
Marth's range isn't actually that great. There are more than a few characters with similar ranges, or with enough mobility to make up the difference. For disjoint, that is, hitboxes without hurtboxes, Marth is close to the top.
Because of this, Marth can be so much safer than everyone else can, since he's farther away from the actual fighting. Ganondorf punches and kicks stuff, and by doing so throws his hurtboxes much closer to the enemy. Marth doesn't have hurboxes close to where he's actually hitting. It's all about spacing with Marth and Lucina, staying as close to max range as you can. It's similar to why Luma is so important to Rosalina. It's why stuff like this doesn't bother me.
Marth fights with disjoints, not actual range.
Also, Marth is younger than I thought he was. I thought he was 17 when he was a prince, and 21 when he was king.
Just for the record, Ganondorf has a significant disjoint on the tip of almost all his attacks (everything but Nair, Flame Choke, grab, and Warlock Punch IIRC). It's why he needs to space so much. It's the only way he can do things semi-safely.
Wait, I thought Ganondorf only had disjoints on his Dtilt, Side Smash, maybe Up Smash, and Dark Dive/Fists's uppercut.
You got it the wrong way around, DB1 in the air has less lag than DB1 on the ground, in fact it's the same animation as it would be in Brawl bar the +3 frames on start up.
No, I was saying they increase aerial DB's lag as well. It's 33 total instead of 29. I realize it has much less than grounded DB1. I'll reword it.
I know, I love it. I don't mind Roy outranging Marth with F-smash because everything else Marth has more range. On top of that, the worse areas that Roy covers is significant as well (jab especially). I didn't know that about some of the cloned moves having fewer active frames, though. Haven't really looked extensively in to his frame data yet.
I did not know that! I was just going off of the animations.
Yeah and for some reason the back hit of his Dsmash has 1 less active frame if the Hammer website can be trusted. I don't know why some of Roy's cloned attacks have less range. But his Fair, Bair, Uair, and Dtilt didn't have that issue. I can give you the numbers in a PM if you want?
The way I see it the Mu for
vs is a 45-55 being slightly in sheiks favor. Both Fox and Sheik have tools to force opponents to approach them. Although Fox's lasers aren't as good as sheiks needles since fox can't shdl them anymore making them a bit more limited giving sheik having the better neutral. Both fox and sheik have a great rushdown game by having quick movement speed and can rack up damage really well. Although fox is faster then sheik and imo has a better damage racking game because jab cancels(which only works against sheik after 110%). Sheik has better approach options with her fair(That thing is so free) and has a better grab game. Sheik can also edgeguard fox easily offstage because of his predictable recovery. Plus since fox is very light weighing 79 pounds tied with pikachu and olimar being the 6th lightest character in the game(click this link if your not convinced:http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight), sheik doesn't really have to worry about her awful onstage kill power since fox is pretty easy to kill and fox's falling speed makes him pretty vulnerable to combos only makes it better for her. However fox can easily setup kills against sheik.
That's a bit weird. It could just be a mistake, either on the smash devs part or with the frame data resource. But it could just be the same reason that fair doesn't hit on F5.
I think the reason Greninja's standing grab is slow despite not being a tether grab is because of it's range. From my testing it's pretty much the same range as Charizard's, but there's a huge difference between them that, if they came out on the same frame, would make Greninja's much better and that is disjoint.
It's the reverse-grip and probably some of the animations. For an example, (in real life) try stabbing with a regular grip and then a reverse grip. If you look at Dancing Blade's down input finisher or Shield Breaker, they all extend and lean into their thrust. You can do that with a reverse grip, but it's really awkward and probably dangerous since you could hyper extend your elbow not to mention that your arm is in a way where it's just there for someone to hack or kick it away.
Yeah, reaching out is awkward and dangerous with reverse grip. It's a great way to hurt yourself, if you hit something hard, or someone hits your weapon hard, or just because you're leaving your arm more open. Roy should know better. I know with smaller stuff, reverse grip isn't bad, knives or small swords like you said. But an actual full sword like Roy uses is a super bad idea.
? His weapon is really like a dagger, but is his grip? I never really payed attention to irl fighting styles and techniques outside of boxing, but this is pretty interesting
F-tilt, Grounded Wizkick, and Down Smash have reaaaaally small disjoints, but most other attacks have a significant disjoint, even jab. D-tilt, Side Smash, Dash Attack, and Jab all have disjoints of about the same size, Jab being a bit smaller, Dash Attack being a bit bigger.
Meta Knight is small, so a small sword is more equivalent to a full size sword for an actual person. So he holds his sword the right way.What about
do marths tippered attacks do more shield pushback than his untippered attacks? cause that seems like it would be incredibly important to have the point where you're spaced furthest from your opponent push them back even further.To add a bit on to what @
Marth's range isn't actually that great. There are more than a few characters with similar ranges, or with enough mobility to make up the difference. For disjoint, that is, hitboxes without hurtboxes, Marth is close to the top.
Because of this, Marth can be so much safer than everyone else can, since he's farther away from the actual fighting. Ganondorf punches and kicks stuff, and by doing so throws his hurtboxes much closer to the enemy. Marth doesn't have hurboxes close to where he's actually hitting. It's all about spacing with Marth and Lucina, staying as close to max range as you can. It's similar to why Luma is so important to Rosalina. It's why stuff like this doesn't bother me.
Marth fights with disjoints, not actual range.
Also, Marth is younger than I thought he was. I thought he was 17 when he was a prince, and 21 when he was king.
You're probably right. Not that Smash is realistic or anything, but I do like to think that reverse grip is the reason for Roy's power and less end lag than Marth while also being the reason for less hitbox duration and range.
They do more damage, so yes.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you can get nearly as much power in a strike with reverse gripping.
From what I've found playing Lucas for the admittedly small amount of time I've spent really trying to understand the character, he is very different from Ness. In fact, he seems to be almost the exact opposite. Ness is better simply because he has the most reliable kill setup in the game, and his moves are generally safer and more powerful for some reason.
TBH I don't know either, this is just some stuff I've happened to learn about swordplay. It could be totally wrong.
It depends on the weapon I think. With a Dagger, you can really focus in on your one arm to deliver the slashing blow, kinda like a hook in boxing motion. With a full sword, you have to use a larger range of muscles other than your arm because if the size and weight.