Character Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

is charizards dthrow to fair to regrab guaranteed at lower %? can it combo to the point where upb would kill? someone look into this, im not in a position where i can

From memory I think like after 50% even Dthrow ---> Nair becomes difficult. I didn't know Dthrow ---> Fair was a true combo at low percents but if so that's pretty neat (I've always used Nair).

 

[Fatmanonice]

Official smashboards tier list? I don't see one....

That's because an official one from Smashboards probably won't be made for another year to year and a half. We know that there's going to be more DLC so it's kind of pointless to make one now. I think the roster will be wrapped up by next Spring with the last major balancing patch being sometime next summer. Given the sheer number of matchups in this game too, it's definitely going to be a challenge and I know some people have questioned if it's even practical to try to make one.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's because an official one from Smashboards probably won't be made for another year to year and a half. We know that there's going to be more DLC so it's kind of pointless to make one now. I think the roster will be wrapped up by next Spring with the last major balancing patch being sometime next summer. Given the sheer number of matchups in this game too, it's definitely going to be a challenge and I know some people have questioned if it's even practical to try to make one.

No offense but that's a lame excuse. I don't really see a point in waiting 2 years for a tier list. If there's dlc and patches coming you just leave them off the tier list.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time right?

 

[Luco]

No offense but that's a lame excuse. I don't really see a point in waiting 2 years for a tier list. If there's dlc and patches coming you just leave them off the tier list.
We can walk and chew gum at the same time right?

I know we often disagree, but I love this post. I've said it before but a tier list doesn't have to be the one and all perfect list, and we can change it after a patch. Except in rare cases, Nintendo have been quite conservative with their changes, and they rarely affect the list to a point where it's useless ("Oh no! Diddy was nerfed again, changing x, y and z match-ups! He's still getting top spots though, so lets wait the 1/2 a year and change him from #4 to #7 then." - done).

We literally have no idea how long Nintendo will patch this game with the exception of a very rough estimate from Sakurai that he can't do too many more characters. One guess is as good as another, and the excuse that we didn't make one now because of patches will just perpetuate the same excuse in a year and a half (never mind the arguments of "we went for 2 years without a tier list, we don't need to start now!" and "If the community couldn't get around to it after 2 years, I don't think we'll be able to make one.")

EVO is right around the corner, and I've said that I think we need to do something following that, whatever it may be (frontroom, MU chart, Tier list etc). We'll have almost a year's worth of evidence after that, and its not like people's tier lists these days are wildly different anyway (let me explain in the tags below), we do have an idea of what the meta is like:

Spoiler

These guys always get put in top/dominant tier somewhere:



These guys either get put in top tier or in high tier:



These guys are commonly seen in mid high or high:

/

These characters tend to make up the bulk of mid:



These guys are often seen in lower mid:



These guys are usually seen at or near the bottom:



*phew* NOW, out of all of those placed, these characters I see as the most contentious for various reasons:
- Most agree he's still top, but some do believe his nerfs had a large effect. One of the least contentious of this group.
- A lot put him in top, whilst others insist his poor mobility options keep him out of top 5.
- I think everyone thinks he's great but I'm not 100% sure. A lot of people don't know his potential too.
- Most think she's good but don't see the results from her they want. A special snowflake and always has been.
/ - I'm not truly going to count these two because most people here agree that their buffs are a big deal, however peeps not on the boards have said they still need buffs (lol) and aren't good (lolol).
- Most agree that his buffs were good, but where does that leave him?
- Everyone knows he has a poor neutral and recovery, but I don't think people know exactly where to place him.
- Everyone thought he was going to be THE technical high tier to replace Peach, but now most think he suffers from special snowflake syndrome and doesn't reap enough reward from it, but also aren't sure exactly where to place him.
and - I put them together (but will count them separately) because they both move around quite a bit due to success here and there from top players at different times.
- Mostly people just aren't sure where his buffs have put him. One of the few characters in this position.
- Possibly the only other character with the same controversy as Falco.
- A character so polarising anything could change his tier position lol. Most seem to put him here or in lower mid.

Then there's the 3 newest DLC characters who people haven't had enough time to place yet.

This makes about 14 characters that have the potential to severely move around. Considering it would be our first tier list, I'd say that's really good.

And furthermore, whilst I already explained it, only a couple characters may have severely changed position because of this latest patch - + the latest DLC characters. That's 3 new characters and 6 that had legit changes - In most patches where they're not adding in new characters, this would have been just 6 characters that actually changed position. I think we can handle that. And besides, most changes take time to verify what they mean, so it's good that there's 1/2 a year of waiting (or a full year later on down the track if Brawl's tier list history was anything to go by).

So I think the argument that patches destroy the notion of making tier lists is actually quite invalid (as well as possibly the argument of "it hasn't been enough time yet"). AS MUCH AS I LOVE YOU GUYS! <3

Oh my goodness that was such a long and arduous way to make a point. Got there though!

 

[TriTails]

That's the problem. Any tier list putting Luigi anywhere in Top 5, or even 7 or 8, are invalidated.

There's no way a character that has 8-10+ bad MUs (2 are two best characters) can get to top tier. Let alone Top 5.

If we want to make a tier list. We need to make a MU chart, first. THEN we can actually arrange them correctly. Lots of people aren't aware of Luigi's bad MUs and constantly put him anywhere near the top because 'lol Fireballs to D-throw'.

Same goes for a lot of characters. I heard Wario wins vs Rosalina? Or Kirby going even with Sheik? We can't ignore other characters, and problem is, lots of people ignore the low tiers. Oh, and I also heard Mario loses to Ganon?

Yeah. The meta is still as thick as fog guys. Not good enough.

 

[Vipermoon]

I agree with @ Fatmanonice
Even matchups are the most common MUs. How can you make an official tier list of such a balanced game? Some of you don't care if it's not accurate but a smashboards tier list will be taken for fact and whatever characters end up on the bottom will have a hard time. This game will have to be a few years old before a true tier list. Or we can get just get one now and have it updated for balance patches. But it's either now or (almost) never.

 

[Luco]

I agree with @ Fatmanonice
Even matchups are the most common MUs. How can you make an official tier list of such a balanced game? Some of you don't care if it's not accurate but a smashboards tier list will be taken for fact and whatever characters end up on the bottom will have a hard time. This game will have to be a few years old before a true tier list. Or we can get just get one now and have it updated for balance patches. But it's either now or (almost) never.

To be honest, it was like that in Brawl, but characters that rose on subsequent releases of a tier list saw greater tournament popularity. Patches being a thing helps this out even more. Your character is low tier? Well it's not just community perception that could change that, it could be very real changes to the character themselves! Being a low tier has never been better in this game.

And I think updating it with patches is pretty good (although I don't see a major need for it for the reasons stated above - so few characters each time will have this issue most likely) as long as people are willing to put in the effort for it.

And so I agree that it's now or never, kinda.

 

[TriTails]

IMO, making MU charts are far more important that tier list. If we can make a MU chart, we can make a tier list. If we can make a tier list, we aren't guaranteed to be able to make a MU chart. A top tier could lose to a bottom tier character, or mid tier character hard-countering a high tier, etc.

 

[Fatmanonice]

No offense but that's a lame excuse. I don't really see a point in waiting 2 years for a tier list. If there's dlc and patches coming you just leave them off the tier list.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time right?

But then it's inaccurate and match up speculation can be made moot with a single update. Think about it this way, would a tier list based on how the game was when the 3DS version came out be remotely accurate now? Is Greninja still a top tier threat? Should Wario and Yoshi's vectoring shenanigans still be considered when looking at match ups? You can't really ignore the DLC and patches because they throw so many more factors to consider into the mix. This, on top of the fact that there's nearly 3,000 match ups to consider, it's difficult to hit a moving target which is why it would be smart to make an official tier list until it stops or, at the very least, slows down significantly. Yes, you can walk and chew gum at the same time but this is more like painting a house for a client only for them to abruptly change their mind when you're not even half way done yet.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

But then it's inaccurate and match up speculation can be made moot with a single update. Think about it this way, would a tier list based on how the game was when the 3DS version be remotely accurate now? Is Greninja still a top tier threat? Should Wario and Yoshi's vectoring shenanigans still be considered when looking at match ups? You can't really ignore the DLC and patches because they throw so many more factors to consider into the mix. This, on top of the fact that there's nearly 3,000 match ups to consider, it's difficult to hit a moving target which is why it would be smart to make an official tier list until it stops or, at the very least, slows down significantly. Yes, you can walk and chew gum at the same time but this is more like painting a house for a client only for them to abruptly change their mind when you're not even half way done yet.

Debateably you could make a rough one, Japan has been doing this...only for it to become irrelevant a week later.

 

[Luco]

But then it's inaccurate and match up speculation can be made moot with a single update. Think about it this way, would a tier list based on how the game was when the 3DS version came out be remotely accurate now? Is Greninja still a top tier threat? Should Wario and Yoshi's vectoring shenanigans still be considered when looking at match ups? You can't really ignore the DLC and patches because they throw so many more factors to consider into the mix. This, on top of the fact that there's nearly 3,000 match ups to consider, it's difficult to hit a moving target which is why it would be smart to make an official tier list until it stops or, at the very least, slows down significantly. Yes, you can walk and chew gum at the same time but this is more like painting a house for a client only for them to abruptly change their mind when you're not even half way done yet.

Right, but to be totally fair, Greninja took several patches to get to where he is today. And most of it is just time. We shouldn't take early 3DS into account because the meta has changed anyway. Patches have been a part of it, but they haven't ruled the meta. This isn't DoTA!

 

[Fatmanonice]

Debateably you could make a rough one, Japan has been doing this...only for it to become irrelevant a week later.

Which, in my opinion, is practically useless. The reddit poll tier lists are practically flavor of the month as it is and it doesn't really help anyone. As other people have mentioned, there's no denying that tier lists have a big influence on public opinion and how often certain characters get used. The problem with this is that I think it doesn't encourage people to be dedicated to their characters except for the ones consistently at the very top. For example, people have already left Diddy in droves based on Zero's opinions.

This is the problem with regularly updating tier lists. Why bother sticking with anyone but those who rarely move on the top if public opinion could have any character take a nose dive after a single update. People are fickle and people will change anyways if they feel like they're going to have to work harder to win but I feel like the time between these periods is especially important. Compare how much a character could develop in the span of a year than the span of a month. Working on a character for a year would produce a much better understanding of the game as a whole. With these short term tier list, things can quickly sway after a major tournament or an update without getting a good grasp of what all has changed and how it affects everything.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, we're really ought to look into matchups if we want to have an even remotely accurate tier list. Especially if we have tourney results to back up stuff.

Should probably take a look at Sheik's individual matchups first. A lot of a character's viability will depend on the direct matchup against her.

 

[FullMoon]

Right, but to be totally fair, Greninja took several patches to get to where he is today.

All one of them?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I agree with @ Fatmanonice
Even matchups are the most common MUs.

If everyone is playing dittos all the time, sure.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Routa]

If everyone is playing dittos all the time, sure.

Smooth Criminal

*slow claps*

 

[GeneralLedge]

Open question about basing Tier Lists off of MU data:

If a character wins a MU against a character who otherwise has solid MUs across the board, do they get bonus points? Why/not?

 

[Smog Frog]

Open question about basing Tier Lists off of MU data:

If a character wins a MU against a character who otherwise has solid MUs across the board, do they get bonus points? Why/not?

depends on the other matchups. if its say something like....>, wouldnt get that much of a bump since his other matchups are pretty bad(plenty other low tiers in other games have niche uses as counterpicks against higher/top tiers). but if its something like >, wouldnt get much of a bump either since she has great matchups all around. might get a slight downgrade, but it wouldnt be too much since he has great matchups all around, too.

 

[Mario766]

It'd be more points against the character they beat than points for them. Unless they have a solid spread against the strong competitive characters it doesn't mean that much.

ex: Just because you see some character do well against Luigi doesn't mean they get extra kudos when they still lose to the other high/top tiers around them.

 

[Luco]

All one of them?

I guess if you don't consider the bug fixes real changes then true enough. Regardless I think the biggest change was time.

 

[NewZen]

Honestly, (A number of my friends rely on Eventhubs as their Tier source, and I have to constantly tell them to not rely on such nonsense) the whole waiting one to two years for a list to surface doesn't bother me all that much. Yes, people want to see where characters lie in at this point and time (Primarily to see what characters they'll jump to once they try to get competitive and whatnot, but I digress), but I'd rather take that than see what the latest "list" is where characters are being placed in spots that cause so much backlash that you'd almost think someone lost their child. ( in High Mid from one list I saw back in March...okay, then...)

I will agree on this-as a Main, he does not need to be in the top 5/10, given his problems for being an effective character and the number of disadvantageous matchups he has.

 

[Mario766]

Also I keep seeing the Ganon > Mario for MU spread but I just don't see it. I saw a lot of Ganon vs Mario at EXP 2015 and it looks like Mario has the advantage if he doesn't get heavily read or makes a tech flub, esp when going off stage for gimps as Ganon is pretty easy for Mario to gimp without customs activated. I can see Custom Ganon being harder for Mario but Mario gets stronger tools as well.

 

[FullMoon]

I guess if you don't consider the bug fixes real changes then true enough. Regardless I think the biggest change was time.

The bugfixes removed some stuff, yeah, but none of them impacted Greninja's metagame all that much. Running Shadow Sneak was too difficult to pull of consistently and it's use was very limited. Infinite Shadow Sneak was similarly limited and the removal of it actually made so that Greninja could land when releasing it without suffering huge lag before teleporting, for some reason that was a thing before.

The only really relevant Shadow Sneak tech is the hitstun cancel that surprisingly enough is still in.

 

[Ffamran]

Ffamran, not you too... ;_; Charizard went up this tier list! Obviously not where he needs to be, but like, yeah, remember the DLC chars skewed the numbers so it looks like Charizard went down when in actuality he didn't.

The Reddit-voted "tier list" had Charizard drop places.

I'm really liking the type of character Roy is. Despite his speed he's not really a rushdown down character. I've been watching gnes use him and he's be showing a lot. The best roy I've seen thus far.

Sethlon started playing Smash 4 and mostly because Roy's in it. Knowing his history with Roy in Melee and PM, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the one to find out and master everything about Roy. That does assume Sethlon continues to play Smash 4 and doesn't drop it completely for whatever reason.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Guys. We haven't even gotten into customs. And that is really bad. Because we will have to make a list for non-customs and then a tier list for Custom characters. That means even more work. This game has so many good characters and it's pretty balanced overall. It's almost like Smash 64 days. Where in that game everyone could be tournament viable. This is why I love Smash 4. So many posibilities.

I wanted to discuss some specific Match-ups.

vs Does any Sonic main have trouble with this one? Because I actually don't really have issues with this one. It's even or I win the match (this is for glory though... I would need to battle someone more experienced with Pikachu to see if this match-up actually causes trouble with Sonic).

vs Can Roy's Up Air prioritize Sheik's Forward Air? Can that little thing change the whole match-up? Or is just my crazy mind?

And for the last one: vs

I really want to help determine some match-ups that I actually don't know and see if I can battle better with Sonic, Roy and Lucas.

 

[Mario766]

Customs will die after EVO. It won't be necessary.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Street Fighter 3 actually has two tier list. A true match up based list and all match-ups give the same amount of points if you win them. The other list is a weighted tier list. In that list top tiers are worth more points and low tiers are wroth less. It's a list that really shows how competitive a character is when put into a tourney setting.

It took the Third Strike community YEARS for both lists to be generally agreed upon. And that game had no patches.

Seriously guys...good luck.

LOOLLOLOOLOLLOOL

 

[Luco]

The Reddit-voted "tier list" had Charizard drop places.


Sethlon started playing Smash 4 and mostly because Roy's in it. Knowing his history with Roy in Melee and PM, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the one to find out and master everything about Roy. That does assume Sethlon continues to play Smash 4 and doesn't drop it completely for whatever reason.

You mean... This one?

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, welcome to the

/r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

Let's get kicking! One quick note before I get going, I managed to accidentally forget the DLC in the extra questions on the poll. My B. TBH these questions provide less information than the tier list itself so with this accident I didn't include them right now. Also a quick reminder that a customs on tier list will be voted on in August (after Evo so discussion can take place prior and interest can go up) and it will have a LOT of improvements (seriously, folks are going to like it). Also remember this list assumes customs are off and that Miis have access to all of their moves. So let's get on with the tier list!
(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use
Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories. (Please for the love of all that is good in the world read that paragraph. The number of people who say "there's too many tiers" each month is enough to make my head hurt.)

ONE LAST NOTE: Remember that three characters were just added to the game, so consider that when seeing how far some characters moved down (as at first glance it might look like a lot more than you would think).

Spoiler

(S)(13.75 | ±0) (13.18 | ±0)
(A+) (12.46 | ±0) (12.43 | ±0) (12.19 | +1)
(A) (11.96 | +3) (11.74 | ±0) (11.52 | ±0) (11.3 | +3) (11.07 | -5) (10.95 | ±0)
(A-) (10.94 | -1) (10.89 | ±0) (10.88 | -1) (10.86 | -4) 15 (10.37 | -2) (10.26 | ±0)
(B+) (9.98 | -2) (9.90 | +3) (9.79 | +2) (9.78 | -6) (9.7 | -5) (9.66 | +3) (9.57 | -1) (9.4 | -4) (9.33 | -8) (9.31 | -10) (9.07 | -9)
(B) (8.81 | -5) (8.72 | +13) (8.64 | -4) (8.6 | -7) (8.59 | -3) (8.51 | +7) (8.24 | -4)(8.11 | -1) (8 | -9)
(B-) (7.64 | -9) (7.54 | -1) (7.49 | -3) (7.46 | -9) (7.17 | -9) (7.09 | -7) (7.03 | -5) (7.02 | -5)
(C+) (6.96 | +4) (6.81 | -13) (6.77 | -4) (6.65 | -7)(6.57 | -5) (6.53 | -5) (6.5 | -1) (6.41 | -5) (6.4 | -7)
(C) (5.88 | -6)

I really think looking at this that a few spots are a bit confusing (someone will show off what characters buffs can do soon enough) but is still seriously interesting to look at and discuss. With that, I leave you all to discuss your thoughts on the list: enjoy!

Read this :

Also, guys, keep in mind what Smashcapps said. This is with the DLC characters. The + and - system is in regards to placement... literally. If my character is at spot #26 on the last tier list and doesn't change a bit, he's still going to be #29 this time because 3 DLC characters were put in high/top tier.

IN OTHER WORDS, EVERY CHARACTER BELOW THE LOWEST RANKED DLC CHARACTER HAS, IN THE MOST TECHNICAL SENSE, GONE DOWN 3 SPOTS, WHICH IS SHOWN IN THEIR +/- RANKINGS. -2 SPOTS FOR EACH CHARACTER IN BETWEEN LAST AND SECOND LAST DLC CHARACTER, ETC.

With that in mind, Charizard practically went up 2 spots. Which is a start!

 

[Ffamran]

You mean... This one?



Read this :

Meh. Still, Charizard being buffed should have net him more than just 2 tier places up. Oh well...

 

[Champ Gold]

You mean... This one?



Read this :

Little Mac is actually that high? Robin, DeDeDe and Link is that low? Man I need to stop listening to trash scrubs and FG punks. I'm surprised a Sonic is still that high. I know it's Reddit but still

 

[Yellow9]

I was actually thinking Link would surpass Toon Link after all the buffs he got in the latest patch and with all the universal changes to the game and tech removals Toon's been getting.

Kinda expected Roy to be around A to A-, so he's at a good spot, imo. And I can only see Ryu getting placed higher after people start playing him more.

I do find it funny that every dlc character, except Mewtwo, is placed really high in the tiers.

 

[Routa]

Ike jumped from C- to B? Hahahaa... The buffs were not THAT GOOD. He is C+ or near B-, but he isn't B due to many bad MUs. He got nice buffs but they did not remove his bad MUs.

 

[Mr. Johan]

To those saying Luigi isn't top 5-8 or more, a tier list is, or should be, reflective of the metagame at the particular moment the tier list is made. It's not reflective of perfect play.

Luigi may have bad matchups in theorycraft, but they certainly aren't being exploited in the current time period

If a tier list were to be made right now, there would be valid arguments to stick the Green Machine in top 5, because he's producing consistent results despite his as-of-now hypothetical losing matchups.

 

[Luco]

Which, in my opinion, is practically useless. The reddit poll tier lists are practically flavor of the month as it is and it doesn't really help anyone. As other people have mentioned, there's no denying that tier lists have a big influence on public opinion and how often certain characters get used. The problem with this is that I think it doesn't encourage people to be dedicated to their characters except for the ones consistently at the very top. For example, people have already left Diddy in droves based on Zero's opinions.

This is the problem with regularly updating tier lists. Why bother sticking with anyone but those who rarely move on the top if public opinion could have any character take a nose dive after a single update. People are fickle and people will change anyways if they feel like they're going to have to work harder to win but I feel like the time between these periods is especially important. Compare how much a character could develop in the span of a year than the span of a month. Working on a character for a year would produce a much better understanding of the game as a whole. With these short term tier list, things can quickly sway after a major tournament or an update without getting a good grasp of what all has changed and how it affects everything.

That's such an over-exaggeration though - It wasn't just every other week, and the tier lists were handy.

To be honest, the patching of top characters is going to happen anyway whether there's a tier list in place or not.

I just think the changes don't make as big a difference to any tier list as people make them out to be.

 

[Mario766]

Ike jumped from C- to B? Hahahaa... The buffs were not THAT GOOD. He is C+ or near B-, but he isn't B due to many bad MUs. He got nice buffs but they did not remove his bad MUs.

B is right where he belongs actually. The buffs make his bad match-ups decently better. His Mario and Luigi MU got better and the only Mus we really struggle in now are Rosalina and Sheik. Look at what we're around. It's a good spot.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu obliterates Ike imo but no one uses him correctly.

Though Trela did just win a tourney with Ryu so meh.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike jumped from C- to B? Hahahaa... The buffs were not THAT GOOD. He is C+ or near B-, but he isn't B due to many bad MUs. He got nice buffs but they did not remove his bad MUs.

Yes sir, a character that can do a guaranteed 20+% damage off of every grab, and kill off of his grab easily with true combos at kill percents, bucket loads of short combos that deal barely less than the rather long strings you see from combo heavy characters, 2nd most disjointed range in the game along with good air speed and well above average KOing abilities sure ain't good guys.

Also, customs will only die after EVO because the community is too stubborn to recognize a good thing that takes a small amount of effort to get going.

 

[Luco]

Ryu obliterates Ike imo but no one uses him correctly.

Though Trela did just win a tourney with Ryu so meh.

@SolidSense also won a tournament recently with Ryu, which is pretty great. I hope over time, Ryu shows himself to be a real contender.

Oh, also, that reminds me, I forgot to include this in my last post, but I think Gunner is REALLY under-rated, lawl.

Someone please tell me why he isn't considered at least high mid. >_>

 

[Routa]

B is right where he belongs actually. The buffs make his bad match-ups decently better. His Mario and Luigi MU got better and the only Mus we really struggle in now are Rosalina and Sheik. Look at what we're around. It's a good spot.

Good spot indeed. But what I'm trying to say is that he might not get his ass handed to him by some characters, but he still lacks favourable MUs (most of them are 50:50). And we must remember that other characters got buffed. I mean Falco got as good buffs as Ike, but they didn't improve his game that much that he would have jumped into B tier like Ike. Most of people overreacted about Ike's buffs if you ask me.

(Also sorry for my bad english)

 

[FullMoon]

Ike's buffs made me legit afraid of fighting him now. Before I found him to be pretty easy to deal with but now he legit terrifies me.