Character Competitive Impressions

[Wintropy]

The more experience I accrue with it, the more I feel Pit abhors rushdown fighters.

That may come across as ditheringly obvious, but there doesn't seem be much written on this subject. I hear a lot of players saying, "Pit doesn't have any extreme matchups, you just have to outplay the opponent", but I think his toolkit just struggles to deal with characters that can decimate his spacing and invalidate his close-range moves.

With the exception of jab and possibly grab, Pit isn't really equipped to deal with that kind of playstyle; the match almost inevitably descends into a game of keepaway, with Pit pulling back and struggling to hold off an opponent that actively wants him to go on the run and put himself in a disadvantaged state. Characters like Sheik and ZSS, with their neutral-controlling projectile options, make even that difficult for Pit - Orbies are not even close to useful in that situation. The only advantage I'd say Pit has in this kind of matchup is that he can generally space them out better, though it's still nowhere near enough to mitigate his lack of reactionary options in that situation.

Or I could just be underestimating his toolkit. I definitely feel that Pit fares better against opponents that can't just get in his face and have fun turning him into a white-winged combo dummy.

 

[Ffamran]

Now if only Nintendo patched her a proper fastfall and/or gave reduced her fall speed... I want to like Samus and play her, but viability aside the floatiness makes playing her boring, you can't get a nice flow going, the game is constantly interrupted by you having to wait for her to finish falling.

That was always her thing, though. Samus was always a heavyweight with low fall speed. Why? Same reason why ZSS is a fast faller, runs faster, jumps higher, and is stronger than in her Power Suit? Seriously? I can't wait for Master Chief to get in this game and have a "Zero Suit Master Chief" who's much more stronger than in his armor...

You would think with an advanced suit that Samus could move in the air better and jump higher than or as high ZSS using the thrusters on her back. It's not just her floatiness, it's her air speed which is meh. Luigi and Samus share the same fall speed, so they're both floaties, but Luigi's kit just flows or works well enough where his air speed doesn't matter. Same with Fox who has amazing ground speed to make up for his low air speed. Seeing ZSS being able to recover that well compared to Samus is just sad. ZSS moves she's in a wingsuit in the air while Samus is parachuting while holding a rock. If Samus had Ike's air speed which hey, guess what, two heavyweights with the almost the same run speed, but one's a fast faller and has good air speed while the other is a floaty with bad air speed, she could do better.

Mobility-wise, though, Samus isn't that bad. She's just below average - below Mario - when it comes to run speed, her air speed is barely below average, her floaty nature makes it somewhat difficult to combo her, and her jump is good. She's kind of just average. The main issue is how her moves work. She just feels weaker than ZSS who should not be that strong outside of her suit. I mean, it's like if someone couldn't break a door with a sledgehammer, but can punch it and have the door fly through. Really? A lot of her moves are just underwhelming like Zelda's. Nair doesn't feel strong or workable as a frame 8 move, Bair doesn't feel strong compared to ZSS's, Down Smash is just there, Up Smash doesn't work because she's so damn tall, and jab doesn't even work like the tips say. If I told you that Samus can jab and mixup to other moves like Dtilt, that would be true, but if it's really slow, then it just doesn't work. The sad part is she has really good moves like Utilt, Dtilt, Side Smash, Uair, and Fair, but that's not enough. That's bare bones when the rest of your kit fails to function and work together well. What can Samus do out of shield? Screw Attack is great, but what about tilts, Smashes, and aerials? Her projectile game is good, but it's weird in a sense that you have characters with really good projectiles like Sheik or really versatile projectiles like Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Link. I guess she'd sit somewhere with average projectiles which isn't saying much as there are a lot of characters with average projectiles and few with really good ones. In 1v1, I don't know how she does, but people feel she does poorly. 2v2, 3v3, FFA? I don't know, but probably better as people can cover her issues.

 

[Vipermoon]

ZeRo's top 5 characters that he hopes get buffed.

Marth and Link are in this video.

Marth.

And Link.

Two characters who are knocking on the door of high tier and are the best they've ever been in Sm4sh.

If anyone was still doubtful, this should prove ZeRo's deep understanding of top tiers does not extend to the rest of the cast.

I know it's just his opinion, and he probably just wants them buffed because he likes them, but seriously. Marth and Link in the same "buff pls" video as Samus and Robin.

Sweet thanks ZeRo! Another step in ensuring the Marth buffs keep happening.

 

[Radical Larry]

Sweet thanks ZeRo! Another step in ensuring the Marth buffs keep happening.

What's funny is that with Link, he's comparing Smash 4 Link to Project M Link in terms of Buffs and Nerfs. He never once states Melee, nor Brawl, but instead, goes with an unofficial mod for a game for his source of buffs and nerfs for him.

This is our CEO champion? A guy who probably never spent his time playing a proper Link?
And he only complains about his infinite jab from Project M to Smash 4. That is not a valid argument for bringing him on a video; he's had innumerable buffs in Smash 4, and ZeRo only pokes at something that's been removed since Brawl? How can someone take him seriously about Link when he only cherry picked that one thing?

 

[Hippieslayer]

That was always her thing, though. Samus was always a heavyweight with low fall speed. Why? Same reason why ZSS is a fast faller, runs faster, jumps higher, and is stronger than in her Power Suit? Seriously? I can't wait for Master Chief to get in this game and have a "Zero Suit Master Chief" who's much more stronger than in his armor...

You would think with an advanced suit that Samus could move in the air better and jump higher than or as high ZSS using the thrusters on her back. It's not just her floatiness, it's her air speed which is meh. Luigi and Samus share the same fall speed, so they're both floaties, but Luigi's kit just flows or works well enough where his air speed doesn't matter. Same with Fox who has amazing ground speed to make up for his low air speed. Seeing ZSS being able to recover that well compared to Samus is just sad. ZSS moves she's in a wingsuit in the air while Samus is parachuting while holding a rock. If Samus had Ike's air speed which hey, guess what, two heavyweights with the almost the same run speed, but one's a fast faller and has good air speed while the other is a floaty with bad air speed, she could do better.

Mobility-wise, though, Samus isn't that bad. She's just below average - below Mario - when it comes to run speed, her air speed is barely below average, her floaty nature makes it somewhat difficult to combo her, and her jump is good. She's kind of just average. The main issue is how her moves work. She just feels weaker than ZSS who should not be that strong outside of her suit. I mean, it's like if someone couldn't break a door with a sledgehammer, but can punch it and have the door fly through. Really? A lot of her moves are just underwhelming like Zelda's. Nair doesn't feel strong or workable as a frame 8 move, Bair doesn't feel strong compared to ZSS's, Down Smash is just there, Up Smash doesn't work because she's so damn tall, and jab doesn't even work like the tips say. If I told you that Samus can jab and mixup to other moves like Dtilt, that would be true, but if it's really slow, then it just doesn't work. The sad part is she has really good moves like Utilt, Dtilt, Side Smash, Uair, and Fair, but that's not enough. That's bare bones when the rest of your kit fails to function and work together well. What can Samus do out of shield? Screw Attack is great, but what about tilts, Smashes, and aerials? Her projectile game is good, but it's weird in a sense that you have characters with really good projectiles like Sheik or really versatile projectiles like Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Link. I guess she'd sit somewhere with average projectiles which isn't saying much as there are a lot of characters with average projectiles and few with really good ones. In 1v1, I don't know how she does, but people feel she does poorly. 2v2, 3v3, FFA? I don't know, but probably better as people can cover her issues.

Does it matter if it was always her thing? I don't think it does, why would it? :S

I doubt many people would miss it, regardless by giving her a fastfall we could have the cake and eat it.

Still I suppose more horizontal mobility would also work. But I wonder if good horizontal mobility with her moveset could lead to her invalidating part of the cast. I think adding a proper fastfall and making her slightly less floaty would be better. She can still be sort of floaty to keep her niche, just less than now please.

All characters have some crap moves, but moves which do not even work as intended should be fixed. Usnash belongs to the latter.

Moreover I agree on the nair, there was no need to change it, the gtfo nair from brawl suits her playstyle that much better.

Also think her Zair needs a bigger hitbox, for a ranged character she lacks keep away moves, both missiles and charge shot are too slow. Zair does the job, but not against all characters, and that should change.

Jab is unique but needs a fix like Marths, as it is the move doesn't serve a purpose. Knockback, and knockback angle needs adjusting, and first hit needs to reliably combo into second.

But tbh the floatiness is still what makes her so lame. She can't do anything while on her way down either beside bombs. Let her charge her friggin shot and make it take more time to fully charge to compensate if necessary. She constantly gets these little micro pauses of dead time, and those do not belong in a game built around excitement, tension and release.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think in a perfect world, I'd very slightly nerf Charge Shot KO power on Samus, make her Jab and U-smash function properly, and either reduce the ending lag on Missiles or give back Missile cancels to Samus. That I think would about cover most of the important things concerning her.

I'm somewhat skeptical they'll buff missiles though, other thing you probably could do is increase the power of her side throws. Base knockback and damage perhaps.

I'd agree generally speaking there's no way to really make Samus an exciting character without some fairly drastic physics changes, given she's a charge move character that resets to neutral a lot.

 

[Ffamran]

Does it matter if it was always her thing? I don't think it does, why would it? :S

I doubt many people would miss it, regardless by giving her a fastfall we could have the cake and eat it.

Still I suppose more horizontal mobility would also work. But I wonder if good horizontal mobility with her moveset could lead to her invalidating part of the cast. I think adding a proper fastfall and making her slightly less floaty would be better. She can still be sort of floaty to keep her niche, just less than now please.

All characters have some crap moves, but moves which do not even work as intended should be fixed. Usnash belongs to the latter.

Moreover I agree on the nair, there was no need to change it, the gtfo nair from brawl suits her playstyle that much better.

Also think her Zair needs a bigger hitbox, for a ranged character she lacks keep away moves, both missiles and charge shot are too slow. Zair does the job, but not against all characters, and that should change.

Jab is unique but needs a fix like Marths, as it is the move doesn't serve a purpose. Knockback, and knockback angle needs adjusting, and first hit needs to reliably combo into second.

But tbh the floatiness is still what makes her so lame. She can't do anything while on her way down either beside bombs. Let her charge her friggin shot and make it take more time to fully charge to compensate if necessary. She constantly gets these little micro pauses of dead time, and those do not belong in a game built around excitement, tension and release.

Oh yeah, I forgot that Samus couldn't charge her Charge Shot anymore in this game... WHY?! Lucario, Mewtwo, Link, Toon Link, Sheik, Rosalina, Diddy, Bowser Jr., and Robin can, but why not Samus? If this is just a way to make her unique, then it's just stupid as hell. At least make it so she can fire faster in the air if you don't let her charge her Charge Shot in the air.

Nair not being a sex kick is one thing, but making it so it's a frame 8 move that's weak like most sex kicks? Yeah... It's like if you removed Luigi's frame 3 Nair and replaced it with a fancier looking one that's just as strong, but comes out at frame 10. It needs something to justify the startup and change in hitbox. Samus's Nair as of now isn't strong, it's not fast, and it doesn't even linger that long. At least make the back hit strong like most Down Smashes or something.

Jab's tip is this: "Foes can often put up their shields in between the first and second hits of this combo. It's safer to just hit with the first attack and then flee." Can Samus even run out? Even at low level gameplay, probably not. At high level play where Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Fox, Captain Falcon, Sonic, and other speedsters run rampant? Yep, they're just going to rush in and beat you to a dirty pulp. Look, if she could jab 1 like Fox meaning she could act however she wants, but jab 2 happens at still the same slowish speed, then that would be fine. Right now, it's like jab 1 with Ganondorf and trying to run. Aero's frame data said she can act at frame 18, but I don't know if that means she can transition to jab 2 or move however she wants. The freaking base knockback is just 8 with good knockback growth, but knockback growth isn't going to do jack with a 3% hit. This isn't Falco's Bair that does 13% with 130 KBG clean. Weight knockback maybe could help... Or maybe make it so her jab 1 has a stun effect. Short stun and not like ZSS's Stun Gun or Pikachu's Thunder Wave. Source: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Samus.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I get the impression that Samus was designed almost entirely around Charge Shot. FFA sniping with it is the obvious application, but she can combo into it from basically anything, it's a good ranged techchase, simply having it charged puts mental pressure on the opponent, etc. etc. The problem is that Charge Shot requires...well, charging, and in 1v1 situations she had a hard time finding chances to charge it safely. And when her lynchpin fails, she falls apart as a result.

Other than her obvious linking issues on usmash (are there any others? fair?), I'd buff her endlag on missiles and make her bombs a valid trap option of some sort. That might give her the space needed. Jab is also booty but I'm not sufficiently skilled with Samus to know what would be the best way to address that move.

My theorycrafted two cents.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Making Samus's Jab properly link at low percents alone would make her like 9001x more viable imo. Like, it's a great move in terms of hitbox and frame data as it is right now. Imagine if it worked properly and Samus then probably would have legitimate Jab cancel traps, on top of well...just simply how much she really likes to reset to neutral.

 

[bc1910]

Sakurai has said on multiple occasions that they try to give every character strengths and weaknesses. What I suspect is that this doesn't just refer to their moveset, but also their performance in different game modes. So he might be happy for one of Samus' "strengths" to be FFA where she can camp Charge Shot and steal KOs all day, yet have this compensated by one of her "weaknesses" being her poor performance in singles combat. Total theorycraft, and I don't exactly want that to be true, but it makes sense to me. It would also explain why he said Samus was the strongest character in the game pre-E3, I could see that being true of a slightly stronger Samus build (maybe with a properly linking jab) because she'd probably have been performing extremely well in FFA and 2v2. Remember with team attack off, campers are amazing at 2v2.

What's funny is that with Link, he's comparing Smash 4 Link to Project M Link in terms of Buffs and Nerfs. He never once states Melee, nor Brawl, but instead, goes with an unofficial mod for a game for his source of buffs and nerfs for him.

This is our CEO champion? A guy who probably never spent his time playing a proper Link?
And he only complains about his infinite jab from Project M to Smash 4. That is not a valid argument for bringing him on a video; he's had innumerable buffs in Smash 4, and ZeRo only pokes at something that's been removed since Brawl? How can someone take him seriously about Link when he only cherry picked that one thing?

What's even funnier is that almost everyone in PM is way stronger than they have ever been in any official Smash game, aside from like Pikachu and MK who were busted in 64 and Brawl respectively, and maybe a few of the Melee top tiers. But generally, PM features a load of pumped up characters who are capable of things they've never been capable of even in their strongest official builds and it's stupid to bemoan the fact that a character in Sm4sh isn't as strong as their power-creep-tastic PM version. I know from whence I speak, I main Lucas in PM but I never once considered the possibility he'd be that good in this game. You have to be realistic.

But anyway, speaking of Link, I do think he's great. You really have to respect this character now, and actually, you sort of can't afford to make mistakes any more. He can turn small hits or grabs into a LOT of damage, really quickly. With the grab and Dthrow buff, Link demands respect at long, mid and close range, and I don't think that's ever been true of an official Link build in any other game. It's really important to play methodically against Link now, you can't just piss around in mid range spamming shield and looking for an opening because he can actually convert a shield read into a lot of damage and even a kill confirm on some characters. I think Link still struggles if he falls behind in stocks because his weak approach options start to matter, and his recovery is pretty exploitable if you can get him out of his tether range. It's good that he has those faults though, he's extremely solid otherwise. And if you fall behind in stocks against Link, God help you; you won't have time to play as methodically as you should, and Link can really use that to his advantage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sakurai has said on multiple occasions that they try to give every character strengths and weaknesses. What I suspect is that this doesn't just refer to their moveset, but also their performance in different game modes. So he might be happy for one of Samus' "strengths" to be FFA where she can camp Charge Shot and steal KOs all day, yet have this compensated by one of her "weaknesses" being her poor performance in singles combat. Total theorycraft, and I don't exactly want that to be true, but it makes sense to me. It would also explain why he said Samus was the strongest character in the game pre-E3, I could see that being true of a slightly stronger Samus build (maybe with a properly linking jab) because she'd probably have been performing extremely well in FFA and 2v2. Remember with team attack off, campers are amazing at 2v2.



What's even funnier is that almost everyone in PM is way stronger than they have ever been in any official Smash game, aside from like Pikachu and MK who were busted in 64 and Brawl respectively, and maybe a few of the Melee top tiers. But generally, PM features a load of pumped up characters who are capable of things they've never been capable of even in their strongest official builds and it's stupid to bemoan the fact that a character in Sm4sh isn't as strong as their power-creep-tastic PM version. I know from whence I speak, I main Lucas in PM but I never once considered the possibility he'd be that good in this game. You have to be realistic.

But anyway, speaking of Link, I do think he's great. You really have to respect this character now, and actually, you sort of can't afford to make mistakes any more. He can turn small hits or grabs into a LOT of damage, really quickly. With the grab and Dthrow buff, Link demands respect at long, mid and close range, and I don't think that's ever been true of an official Link build in any other game. It's really important to play methodically against Link now, you can't just piss around in mid range spamming shield and looking for an opening because he can actually convert a shield read into a lot of damage and even a kill confirm on some characters. I think Link still struggles if he falls behind in stocks because his weak approach options start to matter, and his recovery is pretty exploitable if you can get him out of his tether range. It's good that he has those faults though, he's extremely solid otherwise. And if you fall behind in stocks against Link, God help you; you won't have time to play as methodically as you should, and Link can really use that to his advantage.

My observation is that Link doesn't have trouble closing stocks even when he's behind, at least not compared to most of the cast. His new D-throw helps a lot not just for damage dealing and the situational KO confirm, but maintaining ideal position advantage. Link's U-throw while relatively weak is a decent KO move, made better by the fact Link is a heavy character and that Link just does ridiculous damage and thus easily builds up the damage required to secure the KO. Furthermore Link's edgeguard options are among the stronger ones in this game, as his large lingering hitboxes can even put pressure on top tier recoveries.

I feel Link actually isn't that broken at holding a stock lead. His low% D-throw combos and strings are noticeably weaker at high Rage, and his below average recovery is an issue. Granted though, Link is a fairly strong character at punishing approaches due to his range and good anti-airs.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Link and Marth are nowhere near Top Tier. Not even High Tier. They are actually in Mid Tier. Marth really needs his Forward Air combos. Those were so fun to use in Melee. Link on the other hand doesn't need any proyectile buffs. He needs more speed on his attacks. Down Tilt was a great buff for him. But it's not enough. If he could throw out Forward Tilt a little bit faster he could be perfect. But as the same with Down Tilt, nerf the damage and knockback. I really liked Brawl Link. He was really fun to use and play. Or not even this. But rather a new throw combo: Forward Throw into Fair.

 

[Luigi player]

Note: I'm talking about the non-customs meta.

Spoiler

Maybe there should be seperate threads for these, because it's really a different metagame and always having to say which one you're talking about can get a little annoying.

Why are people hating on Zeros opinion so much?
He didn't say he thinks these characters are the bottom of the bottom or anything. It's mostly just some of his favorites he wants to get better, and I can see where he's coming from. Of course I'd rather see my favorites getting buffs, who wouldn't want that for theirs?!

Links jab nerf was definitely a nerf to him, although imo a good one. And Fox' "chain jab" should follow suit.
I don't see how Link is "almost high tier". I follow most results and stuff and I didn't really see anything indicating that. He could be a solid Mid Tier but that's just speculation since there's nothing really backing it up. Most Links I knew kinda switched mains after him getting his nerfs. Though Marth is probably there somewhere. A solid character, but if you compare him to Brawl or Melee you can clearly see he lost a lot of his stuff and just got worse. I wouldn't mind him getting buffed a little bit again.
I can also definitely see where Zero is coming from with Bowser not being able to land from playing him as well. He has a few (bad) options, but it can really feel impossible sometimes to get back against a good/top player.

There shouldn't be many nerfs still coming, there's just very few specific ones I'd like to see. Zero's making a step in the right direction with wanting to see buffs and not nerfs. Most nerfs are terrible for the game, except for obvious broken stuff. I don't think anyone really minded Diddy getting his uair nerfed (the first nerf) and stuff. And there's a few other things like that, but other than that some characters should be getting more buffs. Mewtwo needs more weight, DK needs a few more things, etc. (these are just two examples of what I'd like to see and should definitely be warranted).

 

[Radical Larry]

Link and Marth are nowhere near Top Tier. Not even High Tier. They are actually in Mid Tier. Marth really needs his Forward Air combos. Those were so fun to use in Melee. Link on the other hand doesn't need any proyectile buffs. He needs more speed on his attacks. Down Tilt was a great buff for him. But it's not enough. If he could throw out Forward Tilt a little bit faster he could be perfect. But as the same with Down Tilt, nerf the damage and knockback. I really liked Brawl Link. He was really fun to use and play. Or not even this. But rather a new throw combo: Forward Throw into Fair.

Link is definitely a solid high tier, the 20th of top 20 in my book. No one's mentioned yet about them ever being top tier, though, not even recently. And Link has decent speed on his attacks; F-Tilt doesn't need much of a speed buff because it's already better than Brawl's, and why nerf the knockback and damage of it? It's a great edge-guarding tool and you want to rid him of something that can KO confirm opponents?

Forward Throw > F-Air is kind of a thing, but timing is strict on that. Forward Throw is the "get off me" throw Link has, so it's understandable that Link has it without much combos.

My observation is that Link doesn't have trouble closing stocks even when he's behind, at least not compared to most of the cast. His new D-throw helps a lot not just for damage dealing and the situational KO confirm, but maintaining ideal position advantage. Link's U-throw while relatively weak is a decent KO move, made better by the fact Link is a heavy character and that Link just does ridiculous damage and thus easily builds up the damage required to secure the KO. Furthermore Link's edgeguard options are among the stronger ones in this game, as his large lingering hitboxes can even put pressure on top tier recoveries.

I feel Link actually isn't that broken at holding a stock lead. His low% D-throw combos and strings are noticeably weaker at high Rage, and his below average recovery is an issue. Granted though, Link is a fairly strong character at punishing approaches due to his range and good anti-airs.

Well, this is a good statement about Link, but Link's low % D-Throw combos definitely don't depend on rage; he can still nab them, and his recovery isn't as sub-par as one can think of it. He can go practically anywhere and recover now, granted he can dodge the opponent's attack. His Z-Air is definitely a great tether move that can be really good for dodging meteors by quick tethering or waiting for the tether to go to its lowest point.

But Link's got one of, if not the most dangerous of D-Smashes. Granted, perfect shielding is good to punish it, shielding is a problem to punish against it. From how I've been playing, I've always D-Smashed and spot dodged the opponent's retaliation, leading up to another D-Smash or Spin Attack (believe it or not, I always Spin Attack the direction my opponent is at, even when I shield the opposite way). Link's D-Smash is efficient and great for those good and easy KOs, and even set ups to edge guard.

But in a stock lead, A2ZOMG, if Link doesn't have Rage, the opponent's got another thing coming to him.

 

[Blobface]

Like all of Ganon's favorable matchups though, it's a 55/45 given Ganon suffers a lot from juggles just generally speaking and always has to pick his moves carefully.

But yeah Ganon does edgeguard Mario very well with N-air and U-air, which often forces Mario to try to recover high given his low recovery isn't getting past Ganon's aerials most of the time.

I'd say the only advantageous matchup Ganondorf has that's beyond 55:45 is Kirby, and maybe Jiggly and GnW.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I just don't see him as that high. Because is proyectiles can be gimped or thrown back at him (Fox and Falco reflector). And his attacks do come out a little bit slow. He is pretty good and he's at most High-Mid tier. The problem is that his recovery is bad and can be punished, he will get overwhelmed by other characters (Mario will kick his butt pretty badly. Pikachu can also just ignore his proyectiles and keep the pressure. Fox and Falco won't have any trouble with him and Sonic has been pretty even with this guy).

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd say the only advantageous matchup Ganondorf has that's beyond 55:45 is Kirby, and maybe Jiggly and GnW.

We beat Jiggs and G&W 6/4 in customs. The matchups imo are about even off customs given they actually are very strong at gimping Ganon, to make up for Ganon's advantages in neutral, and Ganon actually sorta has to guess his way around their strong DAs before throwing out aerials carelessly.

Not quite as sure about Kirby as his customs actually are really seriously good, though I do believe off customs we beat him slightly given he's worse at getting in compared to the other two. He still however makes the matchup really annoying with his short crouch and also good edgeguards.

I just don't see him as that high. Because is proyectiles can be gimped or thrown back at him (Fox and Falco reflector). And his attacks do come out a little bit slow. He is pretty good and he's at most High-Mid tier. The problem is that his recovery is bad and can be punished, he will get overwhelmed by other characters (Mario will kick his butt pretty badly. Pikachu can also just ignore his proyectiles and keep the pressure. Fox and Falco won't have any trouble with him and Sonic has been pretty even with this guy).

Link if anything beats Mario pretty solidly as of buffs. Mario has to be extremely respectful of Link's grab in neutral, never can approach safely in the air against Link's U-tilt and N-air, and Link is EXTREMELY good at edgeguarding Mario with D-air and N-air. Also Mario is a character that actually struggles immensely at edgeguarding, meaning Link's below average recovery hurts him way less in that matchup.

Especially on platform stages where Link has more options to avoid Mario's U-smash, I believe Mario has a very hard time beating Link.

Also I'd argue Link actually beats Fox for similar reasons. Fox can't take advantage of Link's recovery that well, and Link generally speaking has more options to end Fox's stock easily than the other way around, not to mention Link's grab actually being a threat forces Fox to step out of his comfort zone, especially since Fox does not have a lot of horizontal air mobility.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ A2ZOMG Don't forget, Link edge-guards Mario, like other opponents, well with F-Tilt, F-Air and the occasional D-Smash. And if you really want to get technical, N-Spec.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Are you serious? ._. Mario Cape just flat out beats Link's proyectiles. Mario can thrown out a Fireball to make Link's moves Useless, and Mario can use his Fludd while Link is recovering with Up B. I really don't see how Mario can lose to Link. And yes. Mario needs to be more careful because of Link's grab. But that doesn't change the match-up that much. I think Mario can actually escape Link's jab with Up B. I'm not too sure about that one. But in the other things. Mario does beat Link.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Are you serious? ._. Mario Cape just flat out beats Link's proyectiles. Mario can thrown out a Fireball to make Link's moves Useless, and Mario can use his Fludd while Link is recovering with Up B. I really don't see how Mario can lose to Link. Also, Up B from Mario interrupts Link's Jab. And yes. Mario needs to be more careful because of Link's grab. But that doesn't change the match-up that much. I think Mario can actually escape Link's jab with Up B. I'm not too sure about that one. But in the other things. Mario does beat Link.

Link doesn't need to do anything except walk and powershield, and wait. Mario can't take advantage of Link's limited midrange as well as most characters. His air approaches suck against Link, when a simple N-air can beat fireballs and aerials simultaneously.

Also wtf, Link doesn't need to worry about Jab cancel shenanigans against Mario when he just can straight up kill Mario offstage easily. Just do full Jab combo, pivot F-tilt, or D-tilt whenever Mario tries to rush in on the ground. Or heck just grab sometimes given Mario inevitably has to make a lot of defensive reads against Link's range. Mario has no safe way to get in against Link, and fireballs definitely do not make up for this when they're among the most easily powershielded or snuffed projectiles in the game.

Also no, Mario cannot use FLUDD to edgeguard against any matchup that isn't Ness or Mac. Recover low, and Mario cannot kill you offstage as long as you tech stage spike B-airs. Link's recovery is not bad against Mario.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Hmm... I don't know.... I just can't feel Link's progress...

Anyways. Remember my post about my match-up discussions? Sonic vs Pika. Roy vs Sheik and Lucas vs Ness. Could we discuss those ones?

 

[Ikes]

Yeah, we're really ought to look into matchups if we want to have an even remotely accurate tier list. Especially if we have tourney results to back up stuff.

Should probably take a look at Sheik's individual matchups first. A lot of a character's viability will depend on the direct matchup against her.

but wont we need a tier list to judge which matchups are most important?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmm... I don't know.... I just can't feel Link's progress...

Link's learning curve is fairly high, so that probably isn't surprising. He has a lot of options which require knowledge to use correctly.

However I think he's a very strong character when his current tool set lets him control neutral at any range for high reward. He has very strong options in close, mid, AND long range. A Jab cancel game and U-tilt that strings into itself? A ranged grab that sets up U-tilts/U-smash/U-air? And TWO projectiles that can be used to beat reaction time (Bombs and Arrows)? Link's actually kinda amazing at neutral.

Throw in that he just generally does insane damage, arguably is top tier at edgeguarding, and is a heavy character that benefits pretty highly from rage (and many strong characters barring Sheik, Rosalina, and Pikachu actually have relatively poor edgeguards), I'd say he's pretty darn good.

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh yeah, I forgot that Samus couldn't charge her Charge Shot anymore in this game... WHY?! Lucario, Mewtwo, Link, Toon Link, Sheik, Rosalina, Diddy, Bowser Jr., and Robin can, but why not Samus? If this is just a way to make her unique, then it's just stupid as hell. At least make it so she can fire faster in the air if you don't let her charge her Charge Shot in the air.

Nair not being a sex kick is one thing, but making it so it's a frame 8 move that's weak like most sex kicks? Yeah... It's like if you removed Luigi's frame 3 Nair and replaced it with a fancier looking one that's just as strong, but comes out at frame 10. It needs something to justify the startup and change in hitbox. Samus's Nair as of now isn't strong, it's not fast, and it doesn't even linger that long. At least make the back hit strong like most Down Smashes or something.

Jab's tip is this: "Foes can often put up their shields in between the first and second hits of this combo. It's safer to just hit with the first attack and then flee." Can Samus even run out? Even at low level gameplay, probably not. At high level play where Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Fox, Captain Falcon, Sonic, and other speedsters run rampant? Yep, they're just going to rush in and beat you to a dirty pulp. Look, if she could jab 1 like Fox meaning she could act however she wants, but jab 2 happens at still the same slowish speed, then that would be fine. Right now, it's like jab 1 with Ganondorf and trying to run. Aero's frame data said she can act at frame 18, but I don't know if that means she can transition to jab 2 or move however she wants. The freaking base knockback is just 8 with good knockback growth, but knockback growth isn't going to do jack with a 3% hit. This isn't Falco's Bair that does 13% with 130 KBG clean. Weight knockback maybe could help... Or maybe make it so her jab 1 has a stun effect. Short stun and not like ZSS's Stun Gun or Pikachu's Thunder Wave. Source: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Samus.

Samus has NEVER been able to charge her beam aerially in any official Smash game.

Her new nair DOES semi-spike so it has utility in gimping.

 

[Ikes]

Apex Screw Attack? As I understand, isn't it akin to Ganondorf's Dark Fists, i.e. you have to be hugging the opponent's hurtbox to even connect with it?

Not that that diminishes its value, just that it comes across as highly situational.

remember though that samus has very consistent setups into her upb

 

[|RK|]

Even bots are talking ****:

http://www.reddit.com/user/smashbros_SS

On topic: I agree with everyone wanting Samus buffs. I don't quite get how they've left her this way after multiple patches.

 

[BSP]

Also no, Mario cannot use FLUDD to edgeguard against any matchup that isn't Ness or Mac. Recover low, and Mario cannot kill you offstage as long as you tech stage spike B-airs. Link's recovery is not bad against Mario.

For Link particularly, what if Mario acknowledges him going low, drops down and aims for a soft Nair? It should knock Link out of his up B, give him nothing to tech, and rob him of crucial momentum that he needs to recover.

Edit: Then again, that's not FLUDD.

 

[Ffamran]

Samus has NEVER been able to charge her beam aerially in any official Smash game.

Her new nair DOES semi-spike so it has utility in gimping.

What... Really? ... Probably been years since I played Brawl, Melee, and 64, so I don't remember.

Also, for discussions on projectile-using characters, reflect moves do not automatically invalidate them. You have to take into account how the reflect works, the startup, and end lag. So, Fox can sit in his Reflector all day, but that means Link can just slowly walk up and charge a Side Smash if that Fox is that stupid. Falco suffers from horrible end lag with Reflector which makes it unsafe on shield and bait-able. At least the end lag on his Reflector is better than on his Blaster... Wait a minute. Seriously, Falco? Just put the goddamned Blaster in the holster. How the hell do you have the dexterity to kick out a device like that, have it boomerang back to you that closely, and catch it, but you can't figure out how to put a pistol back into your holster!? You were trained in a freaking military academy!? Did you drop out or get expelled because of that!?

 

[Radical Larry]

For Link particularly, what if Mario acknowledges him going low, drops down and aims for a soft Nair? It should knock Link out of his up B, give him nothing to tech, and rob him of crucial momentum that he needs to recover.

Then there's other scenarios:
Link could recover from below the stage; even a soft N-Air will make him go to a stage tech.
Link could be holding a Bomb.
The soft N-Air might not be enough to rob Link of his momentum, because he needs much less than Brawl to recover.
What if Link counterattacks? What if he counterattacks the soft N-Air? (Stage Tech > D-Air Meteor counterattack is a thing)
What if Link air dodges?
And especially what if Link still has his second jump?

 

[A2ZOMG]

For Link particularly, what if Mario acknowledges him going low, drops down and aims for a soft Nair? It should knock Link out of his up B, give him nothing to tech, and rob him of crucial momentum that he needs to recover.

Edit: Then again, that's not FLUDD.

Possible but difficult. If Link hugs the stage, he isn't dying to that either. Not that soft N-air is bad for covering options, but Mario still is fairly unlikely to actually kill anyone offstage with it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Link and Marth are nowhere near Top Tier. Not even High Tier. They are actually in Mid Tier. Marth really needs his Forward Air combos. Those were so fun to use in Melee. Link on the other hand doesn't need any proyectile buffs. He needs more speed on his attacks. Down Tilt was a great buff for him. But it's not enough. If he could throw out Forward Tilt a little bit faster he could be perfect. But as the same with Down Tilt, nerf the damage and knockback. I really liked Brawl Link. He was really fun to use and play. Or not even this. But rather a new throw combo: Forward Throw into Fair.

You are insane. If Marth gets hit confirms off his fair again then he will ONCE AGAIN make over half the cast invalid and useless.

Suggest things to make the GAME better not to appease your own personal taste.

What you need to ask yourself is can Marth and Link play their game in their current form?

And the answer is a very obvious yes. Give Marth a better fair and yes he will run even with top tiers.

He will also completely shut down everyone that is NOT top tier. Is that a healthy metagame? I hope you know you the correct answer.

 

[Ghostbone]

You are insane. If Marth gets hit confirms off his fair again then he will ONCE AGAIN make over half the cast invalid and useless.

Suggest things to make the GAME better not to appease your own personal taste.

What you need to ask yourself is can Marth and Link play their game in their current form?

And the answer is a very obvious yes. Give Marth a better fair and yes he will run even with top tiers.

He will also completely shut down everyone that is NOT top tier. Is that a healthy metagame? I hope you know you the correct answer.

Because the current top tiers don't already invalidate half the cast?
That's the nature of the game, if you're a really good character then you destroy bad characters. Currently Marth is one of those characters that are invalid (his buffs helped him, but he still can't compete except against other bad characters), the game would be better if Marth was a viable character (and everyone else that's bad obviously).

 

[hypersonicJD]

Yeah. Characters need buffs. Everyone except the top tiers. And nerfs aren't the solution either. If a strategy it's just too broken then a nerf is required. But not making characters useless or not being able to play like they used to. I really do want Marth to return to his glorious Melee times. But not as exagerrated. I only asked for Fair to be combable. Sheik can combo multiple Forward Airs, why not Marth? Besides, even if he doesn't get buffed. I still have Roy. Which I love to the death.

 

[Ffamran]

Because the current top tiers don't already invalidate half the cast?
That's the nature of the game, currently Marth is one of those characters that are invalid, the game would be better if Marth was a viable character (and everyone else)

Invalidating assumes something like a 80:20, 90:10, or 100:0 matchup and to my knowledge which is limited, no character suffers that badly in this game. At worst, characters have 30:70 MUs. Try to name at least 5 MUs where they go at least 20:80 or worse against one character. And please explain why you believe so.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Because the current top tiers don't already invalidate half the cast?
That's the nature of the game, if you're a really good character then you destroy bad characters. Currently Marth is one of those characters that are invalid (his buffs helped him, but he still can't compete except against other bad characters), the game would be better if Marth was a viable character (and everyone else that's bad obviously).

The current top tiers individually actually don't invalidate half the cast in this game. Except arguably Rosalina probably (still debatable). Last I checked, even today, the top results of this game are predominantly held by PLAYERS, as opposed to characters.

There are some 70/30 matchups in this game, sure. But noticeably fewer than in Brawl and Melee, and this game has a much larger cast of characters.

 

[Ghostbone]

Invalidating assumes something like a 80:20, 90:10, or 100:0 matchup and to my knowledge which is limited, no character suffers that badly in this game. At worst, characters have 30:70 MUs. Try to name at least 5 MUs where they go at least 20:80 or worse against one character. And please explain why you believe so.

So you're saying Marth with fair strings would go 80:20 or better against half the cast?

 

[TriTails]

Because the current top tiers don't already invalidate half the cast?

Yeah. But adding another isn't going to help the meta.

Sheik can combo multiple Forward Airs, why not Marth?

Then we need Ganon,D3, and Bowser to be able to combo their F-airs. I mean, if Sheik and Luigi can do it? Why not them?

Right. Then we need everyone to have mobility specs like Greninja. If Greninja can have that monster mobility, why not everyone?

 

[wedl!!]

sheik's fair also doesn't have an enormous disjoint and a 10%~ sweetspot

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth invalidating people is different then some other characters.

Marth is NOT fun to fight as a top tier. There is very little interplay going on. You are literally ramming your head against a wall and that wall is a disjointed hitbox that leads to combos on hit and is safe on block.

Marth on average hits twice as hard as Sheik and with tippers about three times her knockback. You sure you want him to have combos? Really sure?

Marth is in a weird spot because the wrong buff and he will be a god-king not just the hero-king. He doesnt have inherent flaws like Bowser (huge hurtbox) or Mewtwo (light). He is just the right combination of speed, height and mobility to be scary if his frame data gets tweaked just a bit too much.

 

[BSP]

This talk is reminding me of / vs. . The Mario Bros. had no shot unless the Marth player was significantly worse than them or fell asleep during the match. You can tell that the devs were / are mindful not to let or any swordsman for that
matter take over the game.

Then there's other scenarios:
Link could recover from below the stage; even a soft N-Air will make him go to a stage tech.
Link could be holding a Bomb.
The soft N-Air might not be enough to rob Link of his momentum, because he needs much less than Brawl to recover.
What if Link counterattacks? What if he counterattacks the soft N-Air? (Stage Tech > D-Air Meteor counterattack is a thing)
What if Link air dodges?
And especially what if Link still has his second jump?

Possible but difficult. If Link hugs the stage, he isn't dying to that either. Not that soft N-air is bad for covering options, but Mario still is fairly unlikely to actually kill anyone offstage with it.

Fair points, both of you. Besides, I went off of the topic bringing up Nair because that's obviously not FLUDD. FLUDD isn't majorly messing anyone up unless you're using a recovery special above the ledge.