Character Competitive Impressions

[Locke 06]

Invalidating assumes something like a 80:20, 90:10, or 100:0 matchup and to my knowledge which is limited, no character suffers that badly in this game. At worst, characters have 30:70 MUs. Try to name at least 5 MUs where they go at least 20:80 or worse against one character. And please explain why you believe so.

This sounds like a fun game.

v
/v
v or v. I personally think Mega v D3 played correctly (which nobody has the experience to do so because who wants to grind that matchup) is worse than sonic, but others disagree.

Some I've heard:
v
v
v
/v


And the random almost exclusively theorycrafted bad matchup (played it once and it was hilarious)
v


And to be fair to mention... It is possible that Sheik v Mega is that bad. :/

 

[A2ZOMG]

IMO It would be good if someone like Captain Falcon was the best character but it probably would never happen given absolutely terrible disadvantage state just isn't going to allow that to be possible by design unless he gets way overbuffed.

Keeping things in perspective though, either Sheik or Diddy being the best character has been mostly pretty reasonable. In spite of all the complaints we've heard about them, it really has been nowhere near as awful as it has been in Melee or Brawl.

 

[Shaya]

A functional auto cancel would be nice, landing lag should not be touched though.
If they took 3-4 frames off of that, Marth would be fsmash confirming reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllly easily. If it got put to 9 frames (i.e. the fastest in this game / still slower than Brawl), oh lordy.

Rather than it being something which walls out the cast invalidating them, it would just mean getting faired by him is death. The reward gained would be monstrous and poorer characters would have issues with sh retreating ff fairs, Sheik factor but with disjoints and tipper rewards behind them.

This is with high-ish level in mind where a player knows that the interactions involved in optimal aerials is still around 30 frames long and can be maneuvered around, but he'd still clearly demolish characters just by getting a single fair. Lower levels he'd be semi-brain deading it out again and likely would be the most popular character after S4's "Meta Knight" for everyone to either qq over or call "extremely overrated" because they can beat bad Marths at local level with forward rolls.

 

[Ghostbone]

Too hard to keep up with this thread sometimes

Last I checked, even today, the top results of this game are predominantly held by PLAYERS, as opposed to characters.

I'm not denying player skill, but the characters they play are viable characters.

The highest placing at CEO from a character I would have considered unviable would be lucario from kamicario at 13th, and that's still outside of top 8, and I'd attribute that to kamicario being an amazing player/possibly some lack of matchup knowledge.

Marth invalidating people is different then some other characters.

Marth is NOT fun to fight as a top tier. There is very little interplay going on. You are literally ramming your head against a wall and that wall is a disjointed hitbox that leads to combos on hit and is safe on block.

Marth on average hits twice as hard as Sheik and with tippers about three times her knockback. You sure you want him to have combos? Really sure?

Marth is in a weird spot because the wrong buff and he will be a god-king not just the hero-king. He doesnt have inherent flaws like Bowser (huge hurtbox) or Mewtwo (light). He is just the right combination of speed, height and mobility to be scary if his frame data gets tweaked just a bit too much.

Marth wasn't godking in Brawl (he was probably the most underwhelming top tier in terms of how well he actually did vs most of the cast, going barely better than even)
In this game it's even easier to get inside Marth's zone, his sword misses half the time, he's relatively easy to punish on shield. Also, saying Marth isn't fun to fight as a top tier is an opinion (are Sheik or pre-patch Diddy fun to fight? lol) , and I'd say a viable top tier of Marth's archetype would be fun to fight with other viable characters.

I think I just enjoy a different sort of power level than most people here. I'd rather a game with top tiers who are exceedingly good characters with lots of options, and have everyone buffed up to that level, rather than a watered down game that Smash 4 is quickly becoming if the current trend of nerfs continue.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

you know what;
"Something I've noticed: when showing SG to oldschool players, they will play for 3 or 4 hours then tell me they "can't give any real opinions or advice because they don't really know anything yet". When showing it to newer players, nerfs and buffs are immediately called for after 10-15 minutes, and everything is either amazing or terrible. I generally tend to agree with the older school of thought, in that you can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab."
---- Mike_Z

 

[FullMoon]

Why do people still talk about a "trend" of nerfs when the last patch was a buff fest except for Diddy and to a very lesser extent, Cap.Falcon?

 

[thehard]

IMO It would be good if someone like Captain Falcon was the best character but it probably would never happen given absolutely terrible disadvantage state just isn't going to allow that to be possible by design unless he gets way overbuffed.

Keeping things in perspective though, either Sheik or Diddy being the best character has been mostly pretty reasonable. In spite of all the complaints we've heard about them, it really has been nowhere near as awful as it has been in Melee or Brawl.

Honestly, the game designer/theorist in me says to always aim to make Falcon "strong but not top tier", so you get the thrill of seeing him in tournaments every so often but not to the point where he's no longer a special sight.

 

[wedl!!]

you know what;
"Something I've noticed: when showing SG to oldschool players, they will play for 3 or 4 hours then tell me they "can't give any real opinions or advice because they don't really know anything yet". When showing it to newer players, nerfs and buffs are immediately called for after 10-15 minutes, and everything is either amazing or terrible. I generally tend to agree with the older school of thought, in that you can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab."
---- Mike_Z

tell that to netherrealm Keepo

can we talk about how is extremely close to being a functional character if her hitboxes/range werent total junk

 

[Vipermoon]

Let's say they took a couple frames off of Fair's end lag but didn't touch landing lag or autocancel...
Fair to Fair would true combo way more often (it's already a true combo, barely) BUT if Marth has no autocancel and high landing lag like he does now he can't land and continue Fair strings. Why does Marth need to land? He doesn't have the air speed to string Fairs easily and he's limited to 2 jumps, of course. SH Double Fair would work but why would you ever double Fair with 18 frames of landing lag (SH Fair > Uair and Nair are what you'd instead be worried about btw)!? Okay so Fair wouldn't be a big deal if that happened.

No, it's the autocancel and landing lag that would turn Fair into a monster. In Brawl he had 8 frames of landing lag and good autocancel (not that it even mattered when 8 frames of landing lag exists). If he had that in a game with more hitstun like this then yes, Marth will **** on everyone with just that one move. Add in Brawl Fair damage and kill power and he'll break the game, internet, and world.

Here's what I want from Fair:
DON'T decrease end lag because he doesn't need 2 aerials in a short hop like everyone's been crying over. All they should do is give AC and landing lag a couple of frames back and he'd have a solid tool that still won't be overwhelming anyone while remaining mostly safe if played smart. Maybe AC on 33 instead of 36 (to match Roy since their other ACs already match) and 15-16 frames landing lag instead of 18.

EDIT: AND GIVE IT A FRAME 5 HITBOX ALREADY!!! THIS IS RIDICULOUS!

 

[RonNewcomb]

Link's learning curve is fairly high, so that probably isn't surprising. He has a lot of options which require knowledge to use correctly.

However I think he's a very strong character when his current tool set lets him control neutral at any range for high reward. He has very strong options in close, mid, AND long range. A Jab cancel game and U-tilt that strings into itself? A ranged grab that sets up U-tilts/U-smash/U-air? And TWO projectiles that can be used to beat reaction time (Bombs and Arrows)? Link's actually kinda amazing at neutral.

Throw in that he just generally does insane damage, arguably is top tier at edgeguarding, and is a heavy character that benefits pretty highly from rage (and many strong characters barring Sheik, Rosalina, and Pikachu actually have relatively poor edgeguards), I'd say he's pretty darn good.

But he has bad disadvantage, so if he loses control of the neutral, it could stay lost until a fresh stock.

And he isn't the only one with good neutral. My is having serious issues with of all people. The robot's grounded footsies can go toe-to-wheel with my disjoints unless I watch spacing really carefully (I expect he has faster startup than a lot of Link's tilts & jabs). His jetfire aerials give no ****s about my aerials with the exception of low-damage Zair, and anytime I try to break off combat to pull out bomb, boomerang or bow I get a face full of laser. And don't even get me started on the gyro shenanigans; it's like a vicious little Luma.

Anyone have advice on Link vs ROB? Neither character subforum has much.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Then why not taking out the sweespot of Marth's Forward Air and let it do 5% of damage? I mean I do want more buffs for Marth. I really hate Jab combos. They are just so damn stupid. Fox with his jab combo into Up Air. And now Marth into Forward Smash with tipper? That is too much. I accept Lucina to have that kind of a move because she is supposed to be a quicker Marth. That would make Lucina so much better and it actually would fit. And even then I would still hate it because you get jabbed and killed in like 70% or less. Maybe it's Zero's influence or maybe it's my bias opinion. But I really want Marth to be good again and not rely on cheap Jab Combos like Fox.

 

[TriTails]

Taking away the tipper would destroy the utter meaning of the character.

 

[Vipermoon]

Then why not taking out the sweespot of Marth's Forward Air and let it do 5% of damage? I mean I do want more buffs for Marth. I really hate Jab combos. They are just so damn stupid. Fox with his jab combo into Up Air. And now Marth into Forward Smash with tipper? That is too much. I accept Lucina to have that kind of a move because she is supposed to be a quicker Marth. That would make Lucina so much better and it actually would fit. And even then I would still hate it because you get jabbed and killed in like 70% or less. Maybe it's Zero's influence or maybe it's my bias opinion. But I really want Marth to be good again and not rely on cheap Jab Combos like Fox.

Lol no tipper WAT? And 5%? Assuming you that comes with AC and less landing lag you'd just be making another Sheik.

Lucina is supposed to be quicker than Marth?

 

[ARGHETH]

I accept Lucina to have that kind of a move because she is supposed to be a quicker Marth.

...no, she's a tipperless Marth. That's pretty much it.

Maybe it's Zero's influence or maybe it's my bias opinion. But I really want Marth to be good again and not rely on cheap Jab Combos like Fox.

How are Marth's Jab combos "cheap"?

 

[Vipermoon]

They increased the end lag on jab 1 to compensate for possible follow-ups. You can jump out of it most of the time (or hit Marth depending on character). People will start consistently doing this as the meta progresses. Definitely not cheap. It needs to be fixed though. Both hits of his jab have major hitbox issues (things we discussed yesterday).

 

[hypersonicJD]

I'm talking about Jab Combos in general. I really don't like that with a single jab, you get killed by a Smash attack. It's just stupid.

OH LOOK. SONIC HAS A NEW JAB COMBO. JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB INTO UP SMASH. WOOOO SOOO HYPE AND BROKEN.

OH LOOK. NOW EVEN SHEIK HAS ONE: JAB INTO UP B.

It's just a pretty stupid combo game. With Fairs you actually have to put effort into it and then do the tipper Forward Smash in Melee with Marth.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Lol no tipper WAT? And 5%? Assuming you that comes with AC and less landing lag you'd just be making another Sheik.

Lucina is supposed to be quicker than Marth?

::wipes off the soda Vipermoon64 just spit all over the monitor::

Hey there's an idea: let's give the broken Fair to Lucina. Finally a reason to play the character!

 

[TriTails]

OH LOOK. SONIC HAS A NEW JAB COMBO. JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB INTO UP SMASH. WOOOO SOOO HYPE AND BROKEN.

OH LOOK. NOW EVEN SHEIK HAS ONE: JAB INTO UP B.

...Wat?

 

[Ferox]

The developers ****ed up when they designed Samus. They purposely made Samus weak up close by making the jab not combo until the scaling of knockback from percents kicks inn. Samus can get grabbed or jabbed mid "combo" without the possibility to do anything. They also made her grab awful, by having a start-up lag (and a massiv endlag), which means we cannot reliable shieldgrab. Instead we must rely on up-b out of shield, which is good, but also quite punishable since Samus is a floaty.
From the earliest videos of Samus we learned that the missles were heavily nerfed, adding around 50% endlag according to @DungeonMaster.

This is an absolute ******** nerf since they did nothing to fix her ****ty melee moves. The missles are so laggy that if they get reflected at mid or close range we cannot do anything. And if Samus uses her missles offstage by accident trying to recover she will likely die. Missles are already telegraphed with their start-up lag and cannot kill, and with the gutted close quarter moves it makes no sense whatsoever. Not to mention that we can't have more than 2 homing and 1 super missle on screen.

Reducing the start-up lag on the grab and endlag on the missles would do wonders for Samus as a competitive character, atleast that is what I think. Samus jab can remain the way it is, it acts as a counterbalance, alongside her roll which is the slowest and most punishable roll in the game if I am not mistaken. Her smashes are also mediocre, down-smash is weak and does not kill until really high percents, forward-smash has wonky hitboxes with the sweetspot not matching the animation, and her up-smash which was recently buffed in terms of knockback, is still unreliable and will often fail.

Samus being floaty has its pros and cons, it allows her to escape combos, and increases her recovery, but makes her very easy to juggle. It also allows her to use effectively short-hop air-dodge to maneuver and attack which is essential.
Other design flaws Samus have are often related to her height. Since she is so tall alot of her moves will completety miss many characters in the rooster, since they are ****ing ******* have so small hurtboxes.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Nah. Just ignore me. I'm just really biased right now. I don't know why. Sorry if I did cause trouble. I don't really like Jab combos or a punishing game. That takes out all of the fun of the game. That's why I want Marth to be a relentless sword fighter that actually uses his speed to destroy his opponent. But I think it was just too much. I'm really sorry.

 

[NairWizard]

IMO It would be good if someone like Captain Falcon was the best character

Wait, what?

You want Captain Teleporting Dashgrab to be the best character in the game?

 

[TriTails]

Wait, what?

You want Captain Teleporting Dashgrab to be the best character in the game?

No. It's Captain Wonky Dashgrab.

It literally misses at close range.

(This is an IMO actually. I've seen top players dash grab with ease but IDK why I still can't grasp it)

 

[Vipermoon]

(This is an IMO actually. I've seen top players dash grab with ease but IDK why I still can't grasp it)

Same, but only at first till I get used to it. What I mean by this is Marth and CF have literally direct opposite dash grabs.

 

[NegaNixx]

I'm talking about Jab Combos in general. I really don't like that with a single jab, you get killed by a Smash attack. It's just stupid.

OH LOOK. SONIC HAS A NEW JAB COMBO. JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB INTO UP SMASH. WOOOO SOOO HYPE AND BROKEN.

OH LOOK. NOW EVEN SHEIK HAS ONE: JAB INTO UP B.

It's just a pretty stupid combo game. With Fairs you actually have to put effort into it and then do the tipper Forward Smash in Melee with Marth.

The way i see it Marth doesn't have any jab combos but jab traps or 50/50's between U-Tilt and F-Tilt. You only catch FSmash if they airdodge into the ground. Marth's a trap reliant character it fits him well imo while giving him solid kill confirms that don't break him.
What i would love would be for Roy and Marth to trade B-Throws but keep the same growth so marth cant B-throw Bair for super easy kills, but give him nice mix ups between F-Throw, D-Throw and B-throw, another D.I. trap

 

[Emblem Lord]

Too hard to keep up with this thread sometimes

I'm not denying player skill, but the characters they play are viable characters.

The highest placing at CEO from a character I would have considered unviable would be lucario from kamicario at 13th, and that's still outside of top 8, and I'd attribute that to kamicario being an amazing player/possibly some lack of matchup knowledge.

Marth wasn't godking in Brawl (he was probably the most underwhelming top tier in terms of how well he actually did vs most of the cast, going barely better than even)
In this game it's even easier to get inside Marth's zone, his sword misses half the time, he's relatively easy to punish on shield. Also, saying Marth isn't fun to fight as a top tier is an opinion (are Sheik or pre-patch Diddy fun to fight? lol) , and I'd say a viable top tier of Marth's archetype would be fun to fight with other viable characters.

I think I just enjoy a different sort of power level than most people here. I'd rather a game with top tiers who are exceedingly good characters with lots of options, and have everyone buffed up to that level, rather than a watered down game that Smash 4 is quickly becoming if the current trend of nerfs continue.

See but im being realistic. I also enjoy games full of powerful characters. But that is clearly not what this game will be so im trying to be realistic. Marth very well could get more buffs since he is seeing no play and sheik is def gonna get nerfed.

I dont want Marth to be stupid braindead.

 

[Ffamran]

So you're saying Marth with fair strings would go 80:20 or better against half the cast?

What? I'm talking about invalidating not Marth. If Marth could string Fairs like Sheik which would involve increasing his air speed, lowering end lag, lowering landing lag, changing auto-cancel windows, etc., then yes, he would invalidate about half the cast. We're talking about a disjoint you can attempt to clank and challenge, but one that's not going to be easily done. At least Sheik throws out both a hitbox and a hurtbox while doing just 5%. As for the rest of Marth's kit, I don't know, but being able to throw out a disjoint that fast and that safely is bad news for almost the entire cast when nobody really has safe options.

One move tuned wrong can break a character in "good" or "bad" ways. Case in point: Falco's Blaster. It's subpar in Smash 4, bordering broken in Melee, and broken as **** in Brawl. Being able to throw out lasers that safely, limiting options so overwhelmingly, and controlling the entire stage with one single move. I really do not know why people want Brawl Falco back. Brawl Falco can rot in hell where he belongs.

This sounds like a fun game.

v
/v
v or v. I personally think Mega v D3 played correctly (which nobody has the experience to do so because who wants to grind that matchup) is worse than sonic, but others disagree.

Some I've heard:
v
v
v
/v


And the random almost exclusively theorycrafted bad matchup (played it once and it was hilarious)
v


And to be fair to mention... It is possible that Sheik v Mega is that bad. :/

I should have worded it differently. I meant one character going at least 80:20 against 5 other characters. So, hypothetically, let's say Rosalina destroyed Dr. Mario, Little Mac, Lucina, Fox, Shulk, and Captain Falcon. That's what I meant.

I'm talking about Jab Combos in general. I really don't like that with a single jab, you get killed by a Smash attack. It's just stupid.

OH LOOK. SONIC HAS A NEW JAB COMBO. JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB, JAB INTO UP SMASH. WOOOO SOOO HYPE AND BROKEN.

OH LOOK. NOW EVEN SHEIK HAS ONE: JAB INTO UP B.

It's just a pretty stupid combo game. With Fairs you actually have to put effort into it and then do the tipper Forward Smash in Melee with Marth.

Don't care if you're mad, biased, whatever, but fighting games which also to an extent, hack 'n' slash games like Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden, "traditionally" have hit confirms. How well hit confirms works depends on the move and how the move interacts with the character/victim and how the character works as well. So, Fox's jab to Up Smash works against say, Ike, but it doesn't against Diddy for some reason.

Also, for everyone, if you suggest a change to a character's move(s), please at least think about why and how that move works or why it was so good. Example: Every time I see people suggesting Falco get his auto-cancel Blaster back and be able to short hop double laser, I want to punch the freaking wall and I legitimately want it to happen so people will beg for it to go away. SHDL back for Falco would make him the most hated character in the game by competitive, casual, and even people who don't play the game. From the top of my head, Falco could potentially invalidate Bowser, Bowser Jr.?, Charizard, King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt?, Ganondorf, Ike, Jigglypuff, Kirby - have fun trying to duck those lasers if you can't even move -, Little Mac, Link?, Lucario, Luigi?, Mario?, Mewtwo, Mii Brawler?, Mii Sword Fighter, Palutena?, Pac-Man, Peach?, ROB, Robin, Ryu?, Samus?, Wii Fit Trainer?, and Zelda. That's 28 characters. That's a little over half the entire cast. Falco would never have a reason to approach and you can never approach him either. Even speedsters like Captain Falcon, Lucina, Marth, Sonic, and Roy would have trouble against him purely because he could control ground and air approaches which with this game, unless you're Sheik and still, aerials generally aren't safe. Do you want that kind of character in this game? If you say yes, then please, find a decent Melee/PM - can't SHDL, but still annoying - or Brawl Falco player and experience this hell.

 

[Vipermoon]

The way i see it Marth doesn't have any jab combos but jab traps or 50/50's between U-Tilt and F-Tilt. You only catch FSmash if they airdodge into the ground. Marth's a trap reliant character it fits him well imo while giving him solid kill confirms that don't break him.
What i would love would be for Roy and Marth to trade B-Throws but keep the same growth so marth cant B-throw Bair for super easy kills, but give him nice mix ups between F-Throw, D-Throw and B-throw, another D.I. trap

Oh it definitely is a combo starter. It's actually a very complex thing. Jab 1 > Jab 1, Jab 2, Ftilt, Utilt, Fsmash, Usmash, Fair, Uair, Nair, Bair, DB, and probably grab are all true combos somewhere between the low 100s (no rage) till 300 in their own small windows. It will take a while before we master it. Especially considering all the different weights, fall speeds, types of jab hitboxes, and rage levels.

But Roy can keep his horrible back throw. He literally has no way of throwing someone off stage (Fthrow, but even that is very weak). Probably the worst back throw in the game and no one is stupid enough to air dodge after it. Marth's back throw is very good actually and vital in the Little Mac MU among others. It makes more sense for Marth to have his current back throw than Roy since he is the character who excels off-stage.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

But he has bad disadvantage, so if he loses control of the neutral, it could stay lost until a fresh stock.

And he isn't the only one with good neutral. My is having serious issues with of all people. The robot's grounded footsies can go toe-to-wheel with my disjoints unless I watch spacing really carefully (I expect he has faster startup than a lot of Link's tilts & jabs). His jetfire aerials give no ****s about my aerials with the exception of low-damage Zair, and anytime I try to break off combat to pull out bomb, boomerang or bow I get a face full of laser. And don't even get me started on the gyro shenanigans; it's like a vicious little Luma.

Anyone have advice on Link vs ROB? Neither character subforum has much.

laser is beaten by hyrule shield, gyro can be picken up/beaten by hyrule shield, Zair beats every metal fist we throw at you guys, we're worst of the worst when it comes to being comboed. I mean, just hit us and you'll be fine.



seriously.


and and if a rob is above you at all, he better be fast falling Nair asap. if not, run under him and Utilt/ Uair/Upsmash and keep doing it until he dies. he'll lose the stock soon.

sorry for the double post, but i thought of as a brilliant idea.

what if no characters had a frame 3 OOS Nair (Ex. ROB, Bowser, shulk, etc..)

this means characters get to pressure shields like sheik now (well, a little bit like her).

this means no more campy - optimized style of play. what do you guys think?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Watching Ryo's postpatch Ike.. Why the darn are people on about Roy? Okay it's cause he's new and his animations are great but the dude ain't got nothing on post patch Ike and is definitely worse than custom Marth and maybe default too as far as I can see... Like srsly.

Sword fighter also isn't getting enough mentions despite significant buffs. Sword Fighter Min size is a tiny beast that feels like a clear high tier. Even default SF with default moves is scary. Min Size SF is the most underrated character in the game and beats Sheik.

Min Size has tons of stuff that is more or less safe on shield. Forward tilt is virtually impossible to punish if spaced slightly, punishing attempted punishes is easy with jab or dtilt or given the opponent doesn't have the right moves and spacing is sound: another f-tilt. And it hurts damage wise, and it kills At reasonable percents, meaning there's a limit to how long you will live vs tiny sword fighter even if you avoid the lethal moves, moves like dsmash (no longer super easy to punish) uair (one of the best in the game period, and tiny sword fighter has the mobility to utilize it, getting comboes of dthrow well into the 50's on most characters with a move that does 15% sweetspotted and like what 10% even if not and even as tiny)

...and forward smash, nearly as strong as Lucina's lots of shield pushback, doesn't have a sourspot.

Moreover Nair is dumb safe when you have the mobility that Tiny SF offers, hitbox functions like a small version of Rosa's allowing for similar shenanigans.

Fair has its uses, and no longer has enough landing lag for that to be an issue.

Dair is still punishable and not a great move at all so long as the opponent respects it and is well aware of the deceptive range of the hitbox it generates upon hitting grounds. But SF can trade counter or it's mediocre reflect for its own version of falcon kick. A weak one sure (8% I think) but faster both in terms of startup and ending lag. And Dair is still superb as far as dairs go.

All in all sword fighter has NO BLINDSPOTS at all, whether in the air or on the ground. This is significant. Approaching sword fighter is hard and failed approaches get punished heavilly.

Oh yeah I forgot about bair, it has a wide hitbox, comes out fast, is practically lagless and does 13% damage with Tiny sword fighter.

All of this on a character with high overall mobility -yeah it's slower than brawler except on walk speed, walk speed is pretty important - and a tiny hurtbox.

But it doesn't stop there, sword fighter has a ranged attack which functions like Rosa's custom side-b, weak with little lag little damage, but with enough hit stun to bug characters to no end.

The little devil is able to approaches against many characters. What do they face when they get in? A ground game that's very solid and transitions into the air seamlessly, meaning this little thing deals damage like Ike despite being Tiny and fast.

How does Swordfighter do it? Easy.

1. Utilt is godlike, at low % combos into itself, airdodges get punished with dthrow>uair. Even without airdodges it combos into grab at very low percents. Slightly higher? It then combos into aerials, which ones depending on DI and knockback angle. But you can net bairs and uairs from it for massive damage. Hits all around sword fighter, practically lagless, can be used to punish lots of stuff. When you can't combo directly into aerials it still sets up for airdodge and landing reads. This move is sick because of how well it works with the rest of the kit. If you make Swordfighter just above min height it also hits through BF and SV platforms from the ground. Did I mention utilt into utilt into grab into uair for 30%?

2. Lagless, extremely hard to punish, does respectable damage combos into dtilt or dash attack or even grab on low percents depending on specific %. And yeah it kills as I said before. Superb spacing tool, extremely frustratingly safe, goes together with pivot like male and female reproductive organs.

3. Dash attack. Simply a good dash attack which has the added boon of being highly disjointed.

4. Dash grab, the small forward momentum boost this has makes it simply a really good dash grab, and Swordfighter capitalizes heavily on grabs.

5. Dtilt, sort of short range but sets up and combos into everything as is quick as fugg.

6. A jab which while not great is by no means bad either. Jab can be mixuped into whatever easily. Final Hit has very low ending lag following patch.

7. Dem smashes. They are not superb. All of them bar dsmash are super punishable and the latter is just punishable. But let me tell you they hurt. You simply can't make a mistake that will let Swordfighter land either fsmash or usmash because you will die at stupid percents. Mistakes such as getting your landing read, spacing an attack poorly or getting edgeguarded, ergo stuff that happens every now and then. They have lots of endlag yes, but they come out fast enough not to be impractical.

A few more

Swordfighters side-b in which it curls up like a ball and spins forward functions like a counter in the air. It's highly punishable on shield but if air dodged you fly past your opponent to safety (or doom if you arent mindful of the ledge), thus you can use it by jumping backwards as opponents approach through the air with spaced aerials, so long as their attack misses you will hit them for respectable damage, this gets predictable of course but works wonders to punish otherwise safely spaced aerials from an unsuspecting opponent. If their aerials doesn't have great range they might also get straight beaten, if they trade you win most of the time since side-b does like 11% uncharged.

It's the only side-b you will use anyway, because it adds horizontal recovery and is part of the default set.

Recovery is sword fighters only true weakness, it is linear and lackluster in terms of vertical distance. You can nearly always recover high safely by holding and letting go of side-b at the right time, if your opponent is at low or mid % he or she can jump into the path of side-b to make you fall to death, but if at high, they will die doing so. Swordfighters best up-b is the default one and it's second hit is made to gimp, that and aerials means it has lethal edgeguarding and offstage game, unfortunately going offstage isnt usually worth the risk, eat a footstool and you're done.

But this is the one real weakness of Tiny Swordfighter, range is generally lacking yes, but mobility, and a small hurtbox as well as practical non-whiffing hitboxes makes it a smaller one than one would assume. Several attacks have deceptive range anyway (ftilt being the main one).

I look at Tiny Swordfighter and I see a character capable of competing with the best after the patch, might beat Sheik, depends on just how hard she can learn to gimp him, because without gimps Tiny Swordfighter clearly wins. Rosa is hard. Diddy is easy.

Simply the most underrated character in the game with EVO rules. I do so hope Trela doesn't go default because of top player ignorance or that he simply isn't attending EVO.

Current Swordsman tier list:

S-tier: Tiny Swordfighter
High-Tier: Ike
Mid Tier: marf roi lutzina default swordfightah
Low tier: robun

Open your eyes guys. You're sleeping.

 

[-RedX-]

whachu talkin bout bro, Ike is bottom tier according to Japan.

I'm not just saying that hoping for more buffs. Nope, not me.

In other news, Trela showing some serious Ryu potential:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5xAJ-cAYvc

 

[Hippieslayer]

Lol it was j/k m8 the japanericans know their **** even their DDD beats Zero. Yesterday i three stocked Ike with My bosser jr, haha, ikes air attax are so slow all I do is jump in fair before they come out, it's lol how they fix end lag but not startup, Ike still low tier. Def need to halve the startup on fair and nair then maybe he can win a tourney in Houston if zero mains him

 

[TriTails]

So I've been hearing MK is LM's worst MU. I'd like to hear someone's reasoning on why.

And also, LM seem to be also wrecked by Sheik. Welp. All Sheik need is one F-throw at mid percents to end LM's stock.

 

[Smog Frog]

can platform camp like no other. hang in the air above a platform, dair any attempts to catch you, basically if gets the % lead its over from there.

 

[Antonykun]

whachu talkin bout bro, Ike is bottom tier according to Japan.

I'm not just saying that hoping for more buffs. Nope, not me.

In other news, Trela showing some serious Ryu potential:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5xAJ-cAYvc

i suppose his swordfighter had a good run

 

[Morbi]

can platform camp like no other. hang in the air above a platform, dair any attempts to catch you, basically if gets the % lead its over from there.

Can Meta Knight do anything on a completely flat stage such as Final Destination?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dr. Mario doesn't really need a lot, frankly. And 2312 is amazing on Doc and addresses a lot of his issues (midrange, options to get out of juggles, and recovery).

There's like three buffs I'd suggest for Doc. Slightly better IASA on Jab cancel (his Jab cancel is already pretty good, but a little extra frame advantage would allow him to Jab -> Up-B the entire cast rather than just floaties). More damage on the loop hitboxes of Tornado (this helps in the Sonic and ZSS matchups mostly, as it's one of his best moves for covering some of their escape options), and less landing lag on F-air (because Mario/Doc forward facing options suck, frankly.)

I think in general though for most other characters that don't already have Jab cancel combos (especially if their Jab cancel is negative on hit), I would probably suggest buffs to that universally.

IMO I think all Doc needs is 2 things.

- Run speed parallel or very slightly greater than Luigi. Dude shouldn't be running slower than D3 with less movement than him on the ground considering Doc's options.
- Uair should be doing 8-10% dmg given its angle and lack of large diverse followups (the ones that exist are nice though)

They COULD increase his air speed but I don't think that'd be really necessary given it's only classed as below average (could change it from 0.943 to like, 1, or maybe 1.05? Might make Bair ridiculous). Every one of his attributes checks him out as the tweener between Mario and Luigi in a lot of areas, but his grounded mobility directly contrasts that. That alone would greatly shift his viability upwards.

 

[Antonykun]

Watching Ryo's postpatch Ike.. Why the darn are people on about Roy? Okay it's cause he's new and his animations are great but the dude ain't got nothing on post patch Ike and is definitely worse than custom Marth and maybe default too as far as I can see... Like srsly.

Sword fighter also isn't getting enough mentions despite significant buffs. Sword Fighter Min size is a tiny beast that feels like a clear high tier. Even default SF with default moves is scary. Min Size SF is the most underrated character in the game and beats Sheik.

Min Size has tons of stuff that is more or less safe on shield. Forward tilt is virtually impossible to punish if spaced slightly, punishing attempted punishes is easy with jab or dtilt or given the opponent doesn't have the right moves and spacing is sound: another f-tilt. And it hurts damage wise, and it kills At reasonable percents, meaning there's a limit to how long you will live vs tiny sword fighter even if you avoid the lethal moves, moves like dsmash (no longer super easy to punish) uair (one of the best in the game period, and tiny sword fighter has the mobility to utilize it, getting comboes of dthrow well into the 50's on most characters with a move that does 15% sweetspotted and like what 10% even if not and even as tiny)

...and forward smash, nearly as strong as Lucina's lots of shield pushback, doesn't have a sourspot.

Moreover Nair is dumb safe when you have the mobility that Tiny SF offers, hitbox functions like a small version of Rosa's allowing for similar shenanigans.

Fair has its uses, and no longer has enough landing lag for that to be an issue.

Dair is still punishable and not a great move at all so long as the opponent respects it and is well aware of the deceptive range of the hitbox it generates upon hitting grounds. But SF can trade counter or it's mediocre reflect for its own version of falcon kick. A weak one sure (8% I think) but faster both in terms of startup and ending lag. And Dair is still superb as far as dairs go.

All in all sword fighter has NO BLINDSPOTS at all, whether in the air or on the ground. This is significant. Approaching sword fighter is hard and failed approaches get punished heavilly.

Oh yeah I forgot about bair, it has a wide hitbox, comes out fast, is practically lagless and does 13% damage with Tiny sword fighter.

All of this on a character with high overall mobility -yeah it's slower than brawler except on walk speed, walk speed is pretty important - and a tiny hurtbox.

But it doesn't stop there, sword fighter has a ranged attack which functions like Rosa's custom side-b, weak with little lag little damage, but with enough hit stun to bug characters to no end.

The little devil is able to approaches against many characters. What do they face when they get in? A ground game that's very solid and transitions into the air seamlessly, meaning this little thing deals damage like Ike despite being Tiny and fast.

How does Swordfighter do it? Easy.

1. Utilt is godlike, at low % combos into itself, airdodges get punished with dthrow>uair. Even without airdodges it combos into grab at very low percents. Slightly higher? It then combos into aerials, which ones depending on DI and knockback angle. But you can net bairs and uairs from it for massive damage. Hits all around sword fighter, practically lagless, can be used to punish lots of stuff. When you can't combo directly into aerials it still sets up for airdodge and landing reads. This move is sick because of how well it works with the rest of the kit. If you make Swordfighter just above min height it also hits through BF and SV platforms from the ground. Did I mention utilt into utilt into grab into uair for 30%?

2. Lagless, extremely hard to punish, does respectable damage combos into dtilt or dash attack or even grab on low percents depending on specific %. And yeah it kills as I said before. Superb spacing tool, extremely frustratingly safe, goes together with pivot like male and female reproductive organs.

3. Dash attack. Simply a good dash attack which has the added boon of being highly disjointed.

4. Dash grab, the small forward momentum boost this has makes it simply a really good dash grab, and Swordfighter capitalizes heavily on grabs.

5. Dtilt, sort of short range but sets up and combos into everything as is quick as fugg.

6. A jab which while not great is by no means bad either. Jab can be mixuped into whatever easily. Final Hit has very low ending lag following patch.

7. Dem smashes. They are not superb. All of them bar dsmash are super punishable and the latter is just punishable. But let me tell you they hurt. You simply can't make a mistake that will let Swordfighter land either fsmash or usmash because you will die at stupid percents. Mistakes such as getting your landing read, spacing an attack poorly or getting edgeguarded, ergo stuff that happens every now and then. They have lots of endlag yes, but they come out fast enough not to be impractical.

A few more

Swordfighters side-b in which it curls up like a ball and spins forward functions like a counter in the air. It's highly punishable on shield but if air dodged you fly past your opponent to safety (or doom if you arent mindful of the ledge), thus you can use it by jumping backwards as opponents approach through the air with spaced aerials, so long as their attack misses you will hit them for respectable damage, this gets predictable of course but works wonders to punish otherwise safely spaced aerials from an unsuspecting opponent. If their aerials doesn't have great range they might also get straight beaten, if they trade you win most of the time since side-b does like 11% uncharged.

It's the only side-b you will use anyway, because it adds horizontal recovery and is part of the default set.

Recovery is sword fighters only true weakness, it is linear and lackluster in terms of vertical distance. You can nearly always recover high safely by holding and letting go of side-b at the right time, if your opponent is at low or mid % he or she can jump into the path of side-b to make you fall to death, but if at high, they will die doing so. Swordfighters best up-b is the default one and it's second hit is made to gimp, that and aerials means it has lethal edgeguarding and offstage game, unfortunately going offstage isnt usually worth the risk, eat a footstool and you're done.

But this is the one real weakness of Tiny Swordfighter, range is generally lacking yes, but mobility, and a small hurtbox as well as practical non-whiffing hitboxes makes it a smaller one than one would assume. Several attacks have deceptive range anyway (ftilt being the main one).

I look at Tiny Swordfighter and I see a character capable of competing with the best after the patch, might beat Sheik, depends on just how hard she can learn to gimp him, because without gimps Tiny Swordfighter clearly wins. Rosa is hard. Diddy is easy.

Simply the most underrated character in the game with EVO rules. I do so hope Trela doesn't go default because of top player ignorance or that he simply isn't attending EVO.

Current Swordsman tier list:

S-tier: Tiny Swordfighter
High-Tier: Ike
Mid Tier: marf roi lutzina default swordfightah
Low tier: robun

Open your eyes guys. You're sleeping.

wow you have a LOT of faith in tiny Swordfighter err just remember that he still has oor frame data and (because of size modifications poor range) unfortunately most areas have mii modifications banned aslo EVO swordfighter is not 0/0 but has the height in between min and default

 

[Baby_Sneak]

just played against a solid good luigi. wow.
i never seen such a good mixup game before. such a dope character

EDIT: ehh.. .__. idk why i quoted @ TriTails . sorry

 

[LancerStaff]

The more experience I accrue with it, the more I feel Pit abhors rushdown fighters.

That may come across as ditheringly obvious, but there doesn't seem be much written on this subject. I hear a lot of players saying, "Pit doesn't have any extreme matchups, you just have to outplay the opponent", but I think his toolkit just struggles to deal with characters that can decimate his spacing and invalidate his close-range moves.

With the exception of jab and possibly grab, Pit isn't really equipped to deal with that kind of playstyle; the match almost inevitably descends into a game of keepaway, with Pit pulling back and struggling to hold off an opponent that actively wants him to go on the run and put himself in a disadvantaged state. Characters like Sheik and ZSS, with their neutral-controlling projectile options, make even that difficult for Pit - Orbies are not even close to useful in that situation. The only advantage I'd say Pit has in this kind of matchup is that he can generally space them out better, though it's still nowhere near enough to mitigate his lack of reactionary options in that situation.

Or I could just be underestimating his toolkit. I definitely feel that Pit fares better against opponents that can't just get in his face and have fun turning him into a white-winged combo dummy.

Pit has wings, Wintropy. Chicken wings, but wings nonetheless.

Retreating SH Dair in particular I love to use to deal with approaches. If they do a grounded attack, they're going to get hit. If they do an aerial, they have a large disjoint to try to beat. Which is kinda hard since Pit's the only swordsman who can properly approach besides Roy, and he has his own problems. If they stop, there's tons of things Pit can do and try to squeak back to neutral. If you read their stop, that's a free grab > aerial.

Even grounded Pit has plenty of options. Reverse reverse Upperdash 'em from midrange, jab, grab, camp a platform, or even challenge their approach with things like instant dash attacks or aerials. You just gotta be more creative.

Personally, I just laugh at Shiek's needles and ZSS's paralyzer. You have a projectile too, and if you both use them at the same time, you win because you're using a fullhop arrow and they're shooting at the wind beneath your wings. Shiek in particular can't shoot you in the air, and she can't get any charge to make it useful because you're leading off with fullhop arrows. ZSS is a tougher matchup, but if you stay just out of range with fullhop arrows there's not much she can do besides close the gap.

On the topic of Pit, I'm just waiting for when all the top tiers get the Diddy treatment and it removes all his bad matchups.

 

[Spinosaurus]

In other news, Trela showing some serious Ryu potential:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5xAJ-cAYvc

Hot damn that matchup looks awful for Jiggs. She can't even shield without risking a stock.