Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Wait, what?

You want Captain Teleporting Dashgrab to be the best character in the game?

Falcon's actual throws however are pretty fair. Really strong but somewhat limited followups factoring DI, and doesn't kill quite that stupidly early with any throws. And again, there's Falcon's said negative state.

Basically in a perfect world, you would still want your strongest competitive character to be very obviously exploitable in some way. Sheik in all honesty is decently exploitable in terms of comboable physics and having relatively weaker KO options, though that's not quite as satisfying as having a straight up awful negative state vs traps.

Among the characters who by design would be preferable as being the dominant competitive standard, I would definitely argue Captain Falcon as one of the better options when I look at the cast as a whole.

 

[Hippieslayer]

wow you have a LOT of faith in tiny Swordfighter err just remember that he still has oor frame data and (because of size modifications poor range) unfortunately most areas have mii modifications banned aslo EVO swordfighter is not 0/0 but has the height in between min and default

How poor really? Last patched the char saw lots of buffs. Range isn't that big an issue when your hurtbox is tiny and hitboxes disjointed and have good coverage and you've speed enough to get in if you have to as well as the ability to force an approach.

Most areas have rules made by ******* and attendees without backbones. Not allowing even default size 1111 is basically Taliban level anti-custom dogmatism.

Ah didn't know that about EVO, still that's close to optimal, means the EVO Swordfighter will be able to utilt through bf and sv platforms : )

Still has anyone actually tried fighting as or against a competent small Swordfighter? I dare you to try it out.

 

[Ikes]

What is the consensus on the Wario vs Sheik matchup?

 

[Vipermoon]

IMO I think all Doc needs is 2 things.

- Run speed parallel or very slightly greater than Luigi. Dude shouldn't be running slower than D3 with less movement than him on the ground considering Doc's options.
- Uair should be doing 8-10% dmg given its angle and lack of large diverse followups (the ones that exist are nice though)

They COULD increase his air speed but I don't think that'd be really necessary given it's only classed as below average (could change it from 0.943 to like, 1, or maybe 1.05? Might make Bair ridiculous). Every one of his attributes checks him out as the tweener between Mario and Luigi in a lot of areas, but his grounded mobility directly contrasts that. That alone would greatly shift his viability upwards.

Run speed should be 1.5 (where Luigi is) because that's what Doc had in Melee. Good enough reason for me. He's currently at 1.312 LIKE WTF (I realize it's because of the Mario x 0.82 thing but that's just bullcrap)

 

[Radical Larry]

From my experience playing, Samus doesn't seem all that bad to me now (seriously, I hate those spamming Samus players). Now, I meet spammers with Missile and whatnot, and here's how you remedy the Missile; use Ripping Boomerang, Fire Orb or something like that, because they are multi-hit attacks that will eat up the Missiles.

Samus is definitely no longer the worst character, but she only rises like 3 spots up, and thus my least viable character, IMO, is Zelda. AFAIK, she could barely get anywhere due to her sub-par attacks and pitiful frame data aside from a few decent fast moves. She has the worst edge-guarding game (and if you say Little Mac, I say F-Air) in the game, her attack power under most normal circumstances is terrible, but I do say if you can land a sweetspot, it's decent, her projectile game is sub-par, if not worse than the other projectile characters, and her light weight makes her KO bait.

Not only that, but if she survives a vertical KO, she has absolutely NOTHING to challenge an opponent. Like, an opponent can KO her with ease from the top blast line, and she can't even do anything about it. Link has N-Air, Rosalina has D-Air, Ganondorf has Wicked Battle Foot, counter characters got counter, Little Mac has N-Air, but what does Zelda have? Nothing to combat characters coming from under. She's got the worst air game if you don't sweet-spot attacks (yes, she's got the worst air game because her B-Air, F-Air and D-Air, unless sweet-spotted, make Little Mac seem like an Air Mac), but granted, she does have great follow ups from her grab and D-Throw, but...

I don't know man, I think Zelda needs to go back to her Melee roots. That's when...well, the sweet-spot was huge and you could actually hit the opponent. And I can remember hitting a crouching Kirby with Zelda's U-Smash in Melee, but in this game, she can't hit a standing Kirby point blank with U-Smash.

Zelda is that kind of character that's got an extremely hard learning curve, and she gets slim reward off of high risk. Also, none of her attacks are safe on block, aside from Phantom, so...really, what can Zelda do? Anyone got anything about Zelda?

What is the consensus on the Wario vs Sheik matchup?

Wario vs Sheik, Sheik definitely wins this MU with 65:35. Great zoning and footsies, plus Wario's bad-by-comparison frame data, and mix it up with Wario being heavy, and you got juggles, great KO confirms and perfect edge-guarding for Sheik. Since Wario doesn't have a Spike, he's kind of going to need to respect everything Sheik throws at him, and if Sheik blocks, Wario's going to get punished most likely.

 

[Antonykun]

How poor really? Last patched the char saw lots of buffs. Range isn't that big an issue when your hurtbox is tiny and hitboxes disjointed and have good coverage and you've speed enough to get in if you have to as well as the ability to force an approach.

Most areas have rules made by ******* and attendees without backbones. Not allowing even default size 1111 is basically Taliban level anti-custom dogmatism.

Ah didn't know that about EVO, still that's close to optimal, means the EVO Swordfighter will be able to utilt through bf and sv platforms : )

Still has anyone actually tried fighting as or against a competent small Swordfighter? I dare you to try it out.

I main EVO/APEX Swordfighter i would edit my settings to show that but that would be implying i main Gunner and Brawler :/


IIRC Swordfighter has received possibly one frame buffs on his n-air so Frame 11
this means his fastest moves in order are:
D-tilt AKA the best dwn tilt in the game (5 Frames)
Grab (6 Frames i think thats a fast grab)
Jab 1 (7 Frames)
B-air (7-Frames + jump squat if you are doing it from the ground)
Hero's Spin (8 Frames)
Dash Grab (8 Frames + Dash animation)
Up-tilt (8-frames)
Pivot Grab (9 Frames)
Dash attack (9 Frames)
F-tilt (9 frames)
Everything else is 10 frames or slower with F-smash being a whopping 16 frames of overcommitment

Basically he's very slow and when you have Meta Knights range that makes for a very awful combination but being shorter means he gets HUGE endlag buffs which can make him into a moving wall of hiboxes when you utilize that hyper speed walk

unfortunately he has problems approaching (due to the frame data) and can get walled out easily by safe aerial presurre from the likes of sheik

The Swordfigher forums generally agree while tiny is a combo god, his range is a huge problem because he's not like the brawlers who have quick buttons to mount an offense and provide defense so instead we chose the EVO Swordfighter who has simmilar combo and mobility (including a god tiered walk) but having range beffiting of a knife as opposed to half of a knife

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

whachu talkin bout bro, Ike is bottom tier according to Japan.

I'm not just saying that hoping for more buffs. Nope, not me.

In other news, Trela showing some serious Ryu potential:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5xAJ-cAYvc

That waz really nuts. Ryu is a lretty ridiculous character hopefully the ryu players keep pushing the character.

 

[Dabuz]

I don't see why everyone thinks Ryu is amazing. Sure he has good tools, but then he has really bad traits. If anything I think the most underrated dlc character might be Lucas, his walling is pretty insane and then he has a lot of good combos, kill setups, ect. All in a hard to hit package

 

[Routa]

Ryu is nice on ground but meh in air. He is like Little Mac with good recovery. He might be high mid, but I think he isn't good enough to be considered top tier.
Edit: But then again my knowledge of Ryu is limited.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't see why everyone thinks Ryu is amazing. Sure he has good tools, but then he has really bad traits. If anything I think the most underrated dlc character might be Lucas, his walling is pretty insane and then he has a lot of good combos, kill setups, ect. All in a hard to hit package

I can only speak for myself but I do believe that Ryu has some great stuff. Such as focus fair srk bair uair and his combo game. He has a really good recovery. His damage is also on another level he hits you you feel it. Also his usmash is sneaky good.

Lucas is probably better than what I give him credit for but I don't think he's very good. His approach is pretty poor. He's spacing stuff seems pretty underwhelming. I think if he had Ness's pk fire he'd be really good. However, when your game revolves around grabs and your grab sucks. I don't see it personally maube there's someone killing it with Lucas I haven't seen it yet. With that said Lucas still has something he excels at like covering ledge options. But maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Scream]

Invalidating assumes something like a 80:20, 90:10, or 100:0 matchup and to my knowledge which is limited, no character suffers that badly in this game. At worst, characters have 30:70 MUs. Try to name at least 5 MUs where they go at least 20:80 or worse against one character. And please explain why you believe so.

This sounds like a fun game.

v

Not only did you not give an explanation, but you also seem to have no idea about the MU.
Please explain.

Concerning the Custom "Apex Screw Attack": 90% of why Samus is even playable is because you have to respect her shield. Her default up-B comes out frame 5 and has a stupid hitbox, hitting both behind and below her. It can also kill at higher percents.

No sane Samus player will switch this god-given present for a 15f earlier killing version with a ****ty hitbox.
Especially because Samus does not really struggle killing, having deadly getup coverage, deadly ledge trump game as well as both up-B, that can also be combed into at kill percent, and Bair. Do not forget that, even though the hitbox is very lackluster, her Fsmash ties for the fastest in the game and kill at decent percents.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't see why everyone thinks Ryu is amazing. Sure he has good tools, but then he has really bad traits. If anything I think the most underrated dlc character might be Lucas, his walling is pretty insane and then he has a lot of good combos, kill setups, ect. All in a hard to hit package

I feel the main thing Lucas benefits from is being REALLY SMALL and having an excellent recovery (which in turn helps his edgeguard game a lot, not to mention his PK Thunder is better than Ness's for edgeguarding as well). And his throws are really good to make up for how risky his grab is. I do think Lucas is probably better than Roy however. Roy is very overrated and has quite a lot of exploitable weaknesses. However I don't find his neutral that remarkable. PK Fire is still not exactly fast, and he doesn't have a lot of range on most of his attacks. Plus he's one of few characters that both has a mediocre grab AND Dash attack.

I'm still pretty convinced Ryu is really good just judging frame data, mobility, and raw range on his attacks (including his 8 frame dashgrab) on top of just doing a crapton of damage on everything. He might kill kinda late with throws, but that's a lot more tolerable when he's basically one of the only characters in the game that is able to do like 15% or more on like every punish/stray hit. And then he also has a very good recovery (limited edgeguards outside of reverse Tatsu though) and TSRK demands a lot of respect.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I feel the main thing Lucas benefits from is being REALLY SMALL and having an excellent recovery (which in turn helps his edgeguard game a lot, not to mention his PK Thunder is better than Ness's for edgeguarding as well).

How is his PK Thunder better for edgegaurding? The move travels more slowly than Ness's and has significantly more endlag. Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[A2ZOMG]

How is his PK Thunder better for edgegaurding? The move travels more slowly than Ness's and has significantly more endlag. Is there something I'm missing here?

Hits multiple times, iirc you can't really kill it with attacks. This is way scarier to recover against and MUCH harder to tech in the event it stage spikes you.

 

[Ikes]

I don't see why everyone thinks Ryu is amazing. Sure he has good tools, but then he has really bad traits. If anything I think the most underrated dlc character might be Lucas, his walling is pretty insane and then he has a lot of good combos, kill setups, ect. All in a hard to hit package

it's probably because Ryu has more reliable, good options than just about any other characters since he simply has almost double the moves of the rest of the cast

having that many options for so many situations covering a load of bases is incredibly hard to get around but at the same time very difficult to manage as the player using Ryu. at top level performance Ryu could easily be top tier since he has incredibly good frame data, KO power, damage, and decent speed (though his aerial acceleration is admittedly garbage since he can't even turn around when jumping without a focus attack dash)

Ryus toolset is just too good and varied to ignore.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Not only did you not give an explanation, but you also seem to have no idea about the MU.
Please explain.

Concerning the Custom "Apex Screw Attack": 90% of why Samus is even playable is because you have to respect her shield. Her default up-B comes out frame 5 and has a stupid hitbox, hitting both behind and below her. It can also kill at higher percents.

No sane Samus player will switch this god-given present for a 15f earlier killing version with a ****ty hitbox.
Especially because Samus does not really struggle killing, having deadly getup coverage, deadly ledge trump game as well as both up-B, that can also be combed into at kill percent, and Bair. Do not forget that, even though the hitbox is very lackluster, her Fsmash ties for the fastest in the game and kill at decent percents.

There are arguments to use default up-B for sure, but Samus's kill power is just overtly poor. If Samus doesn't have trouble killing, who does? Fsmashes are easy to play around, and all of her other kill options mostly rely on the opponent being in bad stage position to kill at early percentages (other than max charge shot I guess, but that has the obvious disadvantages). Samus has some interesting virtues, but kill power would not seem to be one of them.

---

At times I think I initially underrated Lucas; at other times, I think he's even worse than he seemed at first (and my first impression was "bottom five"). Lucas has really good speed to power and great chases to go with it. Lucas's zair is a fundamentally ridiculous move that can do everything Brawl Samus could do on top of a character who has other useful features (unlike Brawl Samus). Lucas's fsmash is probably the best fsmash on any character: fast, close to safe, kills nice and early, disjointed. Then I look at the downsides. Lucas's general range (especially with aerials, jabs, and tilts) is awful, but at the same time, he's not really fast or safe enough to apply safe pressure based on frame data. His projectiles are all simply awful (his Pk Thunder is just comically bad, amazing that it has the same mechanics as Ness's but is this much worse). His throws are great but ridiculously hard to use due to him having one of the worst tether grabs in this game (I legitimately feel when playing as him that Pac-Man's grab is better!).

Lucas just flounders in neutral consistently; he can kinda zone slow characters and can rely on trading well with most fast characters, but he relies on his opponent having a weakness for him to be able to assert a neutral presence. Against Captain Falcon in particular (who is impossible to zone and who has long limbs/high power so Lucas has no real hope of fishing for trades and winning), I don't even know what Lucas is supposed to do other than lose, and I suspect time will show quite a few match-ups like that for him. I feel like if his pivot grab worked like it did in Brawl and if Pk Thunder's endlag weren't so comically long that Lucas might actually be pretty okay, but as he stands he seems very underwhelming.

 

[TriTails]

Run speed should be 1.5 (where Luigi is) because that's what Doc had in Melee. Good enough reason for me. He's currently at 1.312 LIKE WTF (I realize it's because of the Mario x 0.82 thing but that's just bullcrap)

That's even slower than Melee/Brawl Luigi .

But seriously though. Luigi ran faster than Mario in games. Are they seriously trying to reflect that with Doc? While keeping the real one up high in there? What. They swapped Mario and Luigi's archetypes in the first place, since 64 actually, but whatever.

On the Lucas talk, Luigis seem to think he beats us. So that's a ticket there. A small one perhaps, but take what you can get. I myself am not really sure but I never see the power of Z-air so yeah.

 

[Zelder]

Mario was faster than Luigi in SMB2 (Doki Doki Panic).

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's even slower than Melee/Brawl Luigi .

But seriously though. Luigi ran faster than Mario in games. Are they seriously trying to reflect that with Doc? While keeping the real one up high in there? What. They swapped Mario and Luigi's archetypes in the first place, since 64 actually, but whatever.

On the Lucas talk, Luigis seem to think he beats us. So that's a ticket there. A small one perhaps, but take what you can get. I myself am not really sure but I never see the power of Z-air so yeah.

Which games again? Last I checked, wasn't he only faster in like...Super Mario Galaxy? Even in the M&L series he's slower.

Also I don't usually agree with AA but much of his above analysis for Samus and Lucas I do think has merit, though I don't agree that Lucas is terrible.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yay @ people starting to see that Lucas is actually good! :3

What is the consensus on the Wario vs Sheik matchup?

+1 for Sheik.

 

[Jessica Buddha]

it's probably because Ryu has more reliable, good options than just about any other characters since he simply has almost double the moves of the rest of the cast

having that many options for so many situations covering a load of bases is incredibly hard to get around but at the same time very difficult to manage as the player using Ryu. at top level performance Ryu could easily be top tier since he has incredibly good frame data, KO power, damage, and decent speed (though his aerial acceleration is admittedly garbage since he can't even turn around when jumping without a focus attack dash)

Ryus toolset is just too good and varied to ignore.

Been using Ryu alot know. His Shoryuken kill at like 90 something if the button is held? I agree, I dont think he is the best, but he is really good.

 

[meleebrawler]

There are arguments to use default up-B for sure, but Samus's kill power is just overtly poor. If Samus doesn't have trouble killing, who does? Fsmashes are easy to play around, and all of her other kill options mostly rely on the opponent being in bad stage position to kill at early percentages (other than max charge shot I guess, but that has the obvious disadvantages). Samus has some interesting virtues, but kill power would not seem to be one of them.

---

At times I think I initially underrated Lucas; at other times, I think he's even worse than he seemed at first (and my first impression was "bottom five"). Lucas has really good speed to power and great chases to go with it. Lucas's zair is a fundamentally ridiculous move that can do everything Brawl Samus could do on top of a character who has other useful features (unlike Brawl Samus). Lucas's fsmash is probably the best fsmash on any character: fast, close to safe, kills nice and early, disjointed. Then I look at the downsides. Lucas's general range (especially with aerials, jabs, and tilts) is awful, but at the same time, he's not really fast or safe enough to apply safe pressure based on frame data. His projectiles are all simply awful (his Pk Thunder is just comically bad, amazing that it has the same mechanics as Ness's but is this much worse). His throws are great but ridiculously hard to use due to him having one of the worst tether grabs in this game (I legitimately feel when playing as him that Pac-Man's grab is better!).

Lucas just flounders in neutral consistently; he can kinda zone slow characters and can rely on trading well with most fast characters, but he relies on his opponent having a weakness for him to be able to assert a neutral presence. Against Captain Falcon in particular (who is impossible to zone and who has long limbs/high power so Lucas has no real hope of fishing for trades and winning), I don't even know what Lucas is supposed to do other than lose, and I suspect time will show quite a few match-ups like that for him. I feel like if his pivot grab worked like it did in Brawl and if Pk Thunder's endlag weren't so comically long that Lucas might actually be pretty okay, but as he stands he seems very underwhelming.

So PK Thunder sucks as as long-range option? Try PK Freeze instead, it demands respect with the terrible
position it can put you in (the same principle applies for Luigi and Megaman's ice customs), and you can use it as an anti-air
to bait airdodges. Against rushdown characters like Falcon PSI Magnet can also give them pause: it comes out very quickly
and you can't react to the release which semi-spikes you at relatively constant power.

 

[Darkmoone1]

Been using Ryu alot know. His Shoryuken kill at like 90 something if the button is held? I agree, I dont think he is the best, but he is really good.

The average is around 95% if I'm correct, but there are alot of other factors that play into this as well such as weight class. For example, JigglyPuff one of if not the lightest character in the game dies to a True DP if its current percentage is at 62% and gets hit by it. This results in JigglyPuff dying at around 80% after the hit is landed.

Mewtwo, another light character, has a similar scenario who can get hit at 68% by a True DP and die with the result of 86%.

The tools and rewards Ryu can accomplish along with his impressive attack chains into various specials such as his true DP is simply too good to say he's just alright. He's probably not top due to some glaring weaknesses(As all characters should have to balance their strengths) I'll say give it time and Ryu will start dominating once people maximizing his potential.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So PK Thunder sucks as as long-range option? Try PK Freeze instead, it demands respect with the terrible
position it can put you in (the same principle applies for Luigi and Megaman's ice customs), and you can use it as an anti-air
to bait airdodges. Against rushdown characters like Falcon PSI Magnet can also give them pause: it comes out very quickly
and you can't react to the release which semi-spikes you at relatively constant power.

I tried using Pk Freeze like that, but the ridiculously tiny hitbox is just too bad. You have to know precisely where they're going to be way too early in the move execution to actually connect with your hitboxes due to the poor hitbox sizes, and against characters with any kind of decent movement, that's just not practical. The risk-reward also tends to be poor since, if they get past it, Lucas is really open (it doesn't have long endlag, but when the tiny active hitboxes aren't where they need to be, the execution part of the move might as well be endlag). Pk Freeze feels a lot better than it was in Brawl since the situation it creates when it hits is meaningfully good, but as a whole move it is still just not good enough to be a practical tool in most situations. If it hit as big of an area as Pk Flash, it would definitely solve a lot of problems for Lucas though; there were times when I was almost seeing success by using Pk Freeze more, but when I tried to actually rely on it as more than a stray gimmick move, it did nothing but hurt me due to the move's disadvantages.

My experience is that PSI Magnet is not actually that fast (I don't know the exact frame data, but there's no way from neutral that spark hits faster than f15), and it's not actually that rewarding on hit unless your opponent is pushed off-stage by it. The release is very fast, but it doesn't seem to me like holding PSI Magnet out is a lot better than charging a smash in that regard. I tried using it to block Falcon running at me, and I just found that I had to have too good of a read versus how much of a reward I got when I hit with it. If Falcon altered his timing in any number of ways (slowed down, jumped, Falcon Kick, Raptor Boost...) I eat a hit that hits twice as hard as PSI Magnet. It seemed more practical to just guess with fsmash instead if I wanted to challenge his movement, and that's not even good. I won't say that I explored this to a huge extent so maybe there's more speed or hitbox size than it seemed at first, but it is just hard for me to imagine this move as a consistent spatial control option effective against rushdown.

Falcon I also found didn't really rush Lucas that hard; he'd use his movement to force the issue of how much longer Falcon's limbs are than Lucas's and would just keep hitting Lucas with his toes (a lot of ftilt, dtilt, nair spaced correctly, uair all day if Lucas jumps of course), only going for the heavier hits when Lucas was the one moving in (and often getting them since Lucas's movement plus approach options are easily stuffed by a variety of Falcon's attacks). Lucas is not so bad that any one-dimensional gameplan will just win (like the WiFi Falcons who just dash attack and dash grab are not going to be a threat), but characters who simultaneously can afford to stay out of Lucas's melee range and move well enough to avoid being zoned by Lucas's zair seem really hard for him when played to their fullest. Falcon is the one I found empirically, but in theory, I'd be scared of at least all of the following as Lucas since I believe all of these characters can apply a similar formula: Marth, Roy, Lucina, Toon Link, Mr. Game & Watch, Bowser Jr., and Greninja.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't see why everyone thinks Ryu is amazing. Sure he has good tools, but then he has really bad traits. If anything I think the most underrated dlc character might be Lucas, his walling is pretty insane and then he has a lot of good combos, kill setups, ect. All in a hard to hit package

No disrespect to you Sam, cuz you know you are one of my favorite top players since I love footsies and you are all about slowing the game down to your place and just outpoking people and solid camping, but might you be a bit biased since your character is one of Ryu's bad match-ups?

 

[bc1910]

I don't see why everyone thinks Ryu is amazing. Sure he has good tools, but then he has really bad traits. If anything I think the most underrated dlc character might be Lucas, his walling is pretty insane and then he has a lot of good combos, kill setups, ect. All in a hard to hit package

Dude, this was your first post about Ryu:

Ryu is definitely the best character and the best way to describe him is what happens if you take mario, make him bigger, a fast faller, and let him kill out of BNB combos starting as early as 90 with an instant invincible kill move, and this is only day 1, Ryu might have have the tools to be the best character tbqh.

I get that these were day 1 impressions/overreactions but you were definitely on that Ryu hype train to begin with. You should be able to see why a lot of people hold him in such high regard, much of what you said in this post still applies.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For the record whats crazy is Trela didnt even tap into half of what Ryu can do in the air. People say Ryu is meh in the air.

LOL

Let me tell you something...This wandering dragon has wings that let him take flight.

Ryu is not the best imo. But the ability to CONSISTENTLY seal a stock from a punish starting at 90%? That is insane and CANNOT be ignored. Thats the main reason I play him honestly. When I force an error from my opponent I want to end their life, not settle for a pitiful grab or dash attack. I wanna end it.

 

[GeneralLedge]

D-tilt AKA the best dwn tilt in the game (5 Frames)
Jab 1 (7 Frames)

I thought they buffed Jab 1 to come out the same time as Dtilt?

On an aside, anyone who ignores Mii Sword "Because he's slow" is too busy reading frame data and not busy enough playing the character. Who gives a f**k how slow you are when your disjoint is almost twice the length of your hurtbox on half your moveset (and most of said moveset hits like a truck)?

I mean, okay, you can't frame-react on much, but if you're in a situation where you need to frame react you probably screwed up two moves ago. That's not a fault of the character.

 

[Goesasu]

I thought they buffed Jab 1 to come out the same time as Dtilt?

On an aside, anyone who ignores Mii Sword "Because he's slow" is too busy reading frame data and not busy enough playing the character. Who gives a f**k how slow you are when your disjoint is almost twice the length of your hurtbox on half your moveset (and most of said moveset hits like a truck)?

I mean, okay, you can't frame-react on much, but if you're in a situation where you need to frame react you probably screwed up two moves ago. That's not a fault of the character.

I main shulk so i know that "bad" frame data is not a awful liability as everybody thinks, especially when you are a dedicated main of said character with hundreds of play hours.

EVO miiswordie is and amazing character with really good normals that allow a pretty neat neutral and combos. Choosing the correct special is just the icing of the cake, something that mii brawler and gunner cant say because they rely completely on their specials to be good.

I dont know how it happened but miiswordie has become my favorite mii, yei foor balance patches!

Also link now is also an amazing character wtf is Zero thinking saying he needs more buffs. Anyone who says that link is bad is because he hasnt played him after the last patch, link is really good and IMO the best sword char. Nevertheless, shulk is still my best char because we r so in love (bias).

 

[Yikarur]

Choosing the correct special is just the icing of the cake, something that mii brawler and gunner cant say because they rely completely on their specials to be good.

Mii Gunner is designed to need it's specials to work but Mii Brawlers standard moveset is perfect. He has not a single bad normal.

 

[Goesasu]

Mii Gunner is designed to need it's specials to work but Mii Brawlers standard moveset is perfect. He has not a single bad normal.

Mii brawlers normals are nice and all but recovery wise.........default mii brawler should be the poster of gimpleable chars. He needs his good special to kill (upb) and to comeback (downb).

 

[GeneralLedge]

The 'custom reliance' across the Mii spread is interesting:

Swordie relies almost exclusively on his A button moves. B customs are nice-to-have but not required; they're neat for jab follow-ups and various recovery mix-ups, but I'd be hard pressed to disagree that 1111 is pretty good as-is. Jab-Jab-StoneScabbard is juicy.

Brawler has a solid A-button moveset, but relies on B customs to kill more efficiently (or at all). Moreover, flipkick-ledgecancel-Helicopterkick is ****ing scary. But without B customs, Brawler is Sheik without Needles or BF. Good luck!

Gunner is a character I don't have much lab work with, but from some perspective relies almost exclusively on B customs to... have a game-plan at all, due to Grenades and Bombs being out of reach. Bombs themself are insane for walling, and Grenades are insane for zoning. Either one alone is solid, but together Gunner becomes an impregnable fortress of projectile spam that you do NOT want to go up against. When the most efficient counter-plan is "Ignore the projectiles *thwack, thwack, thwack*", you're gonna have a bad time. But without B customs, Gunner has nothing to really work with except Fair momentum bursts... Which really hurts the character.

I'm trying to debate in my mind if 1111 Gunner is better or worse than Samus, and I can't quite find the answer to that. I want to say 'worse', but maybe there's a Trela-level 1111 Gunner somewhere doing really flashy things without a spotlight to follow them.

 

[Yikarur]

Mii's should always have access to their entire move pool anyway.
I hope this will be the standard soon.

 

[Goesasu]

The 'custom reliance' across the Mii spread is interesting:

Swordie relies almost exclusively on his A button moves. B customs are nice-to-have but not required; they're neat for jab follow-ups and various recovery mix-ups, but I'd be hard pressed to disagree that 1111 is pretty good as-is. Jab-Jab-StoneScabbard is juicy.

Brawler has a solid A-button moveset, but relies on B customs to kill more efficiently (or at all). Moreover, flipkick-ledgecancel-Helicopterkick is ****ing scary. But without B customs, Brawler is Sheik without Needles or BF. Good luck!

Gunner is a character I don't have much lab work with, but from some perspective relies almost exclusively on B customs to... have a game-plan at all, due to Grenades and Bombs being out of reach. Bombs themself are insane for walling, and Grenades are insane for zoning. Either one alone is solid, but together Gunner becomes an impregnable fortress of projectile spam that you do NOT want to go up against. When the most efficient counter-plan is "Ignore the projectiles *thwack, thwack, thwack*", you're gonna have a bad time. But without B customs, Gunner has nothing to really work with except Fair momentum bursts... Which really hurts the character.

I'm trying to debate in my mind if 1111 Gunner is better or worse than Samus, and I can't quite find the answer to that. I want to say 'worse', but maybe there's a Trela-level 1111 Gunner somewhere doing really flashy things without a spotlight to follow them.

I totally agree. Miis custom reliance becomes apparent with brawler and evident with gunner who NEEDS granade (and bomb) to have a gameplan.

Miis just like palutena (and imo the game itself) was made taking customs moves into account.
Hoping EVO shows it and people instead of complaining embrace the possibilities and depth this game offers.

 

[Firecaith]

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, welcome to the

/r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

Let's get kicking! One quick note before I get going, I managed to accidentally forget the DLC in the extra questions on the poll. My B. TBH these questions provide less information than the tier list itself so with this accident I didn't include them right now. Also a quick reminder that a customs on tier list will be voted on in August (after Evo so discussion can take place prior and interest can go up) and it will have a LOT of improvements (seriously, folks are going to like it). Also remember this list assumes customs are off and that Miis have access to all of their moves. So let's get on with the tier list!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories. (Please for the love of all that is good in the world read that paragraph. The number of people who say "there's too many tiers" each month is enough to make my head hurt.)

ONE LAST NOTE: Remember that three characters were just added to the game, so consider that when seeing how far some characters moved down (as at first glance it might look like a lot more than you would think).

Spoiler

(S)(13.75 | ±0) (13.18 | ±0)
(A+) (12.46 | ±0) (12.43 | ±0) (12.19 | +1)
(A) (11.96 | +3) (11.74 | ±0) (11.52 | ±0) (11.3 | +3) (11.07 | -5) (10.95 | ±0)
(A-) (10.94 | -1) (10.89 | ±0) (10.88 | -1) (10.86 | -4) 15 (10.37 | -2) (10.26 | ±0)
(B+) (9.98 | -2) (9.90 | +3) (9.79 | +2) (9.78 | -6) (9.7 | -5) (9.66 | +3) (9.57 | -1) (9.4 | -4) (9.33 | -8) (9.31 | -10) (9.07 | -9)
(B) (8.81 | -5) (8.72 | +13) (8.64 | -4) (8.6 | -7) (8.59 | -3) (8.51 | +7) (8.24 | -4)(8.11 | -1) (8 | -9)
(B-) (7.64 | -9) (7.54 | -1) (7.49 | -3) (7.46 | -9) (7.17 | -9) (7.09 | -7) (7.03 | -5) (7.02 | -5)
(C+) (6.96 | +4) (6.81 | -13) (6.77 | -4) (6.65 | -7)(6.57 | -5) (6.53 | -5) (6.5 | -1) (6.41 | -5) (6.4 | -7)
(C) (5.88 | -6)

I really think looking at this that a few spots are a bit confusing (someone will show off what characters buffs can do soon enough) but is still seriously interesting to look at and discuss. With that, I leave you all to discuss your thoughts on the list: enjoy!

I'm so good that no one in this game is bad enough to be below c Tier

 

[Gunla]

Brawler is less reliant on customs outside of killing (maybe that's a bit arguable), and Sword doesn't thanks to decent buttons, but Gunner heavily relies on them. Gunner's buttons are decent, but specials-wise, you get the Grenade, Bombs, the Arm Rocket, The Missiles, etc. That's not to say Gunner's defaults are decent, but they're not as useful as the customs.

Sword, despite being Sword, doesn't get hurt from having no customs as much as the rest. They've got to rely on their buttons to win, and while neat little additions like Blurring Blade, Skyward Slash Dash, Power Thrust are nice, they're additional options that don't make the character so much worse without them. Mii Brawler's loss of Helicopter and Flip are indeed similar to a Sheik without Needles or Bouncing Fish, as GeneralLedge stated above. They've still got the crazy shenanigans, the Shot-Put, freaking Onslaught, but they get Head-On Assault and Soaring Axe Kick, which are outright not as good customs compared to the 1122 Brawler. He's affected on a moderate scale, but he's still quite powerful.

Then we have Gunner, who gains a ton of tools and tricks that can turn a match into a nightmare for the opponent. Harassing opponents with Grenades, Missiles, Bomb Drops, and the like, you get a lot of control. Sure, you can say that a shine is helpful for Gunner (and in some cases it just might be), but the absence of the other two options actually hurts the Gunner pretty noticeably. In addition to that, you also get Arm Rocket from customs, a very solid and quick recovery, albeit non-offensive. Gunner's defaults, again, are alright: Charge Blast is literally Samus's Charge Shot, Flame Piller is a one-hitting PK Fire/Arcfire, Lunar Launch hits but it doesn't recover very far, and Echo Reflector is just a reflector. Gunner misses out on many tools without those customs, and I'd argue that they get hit the hardest without them.

Though I certainly think Miis (and Palutena while we're at it) were designed with customs and having options in mind, so I argue in favor of giving them those options, be it the Custom Moveset Project, or something else.

 

[Antonykun]

I thought they buffed Jab 1 to come out the same time as Dtilt?

On an aside, anyone who ignores Mii Sword "Because he's slow" is too busy reading frame data and not busy enough playing the character. Who gives a f**k how slow you are when your disjoint is almost twice the length of your hurtbox on half your moveset (and most of said moveset hits like a truck)?

I mean, okay, you can't frame-react on much, but if you're in a situation where you need to frame react you probably screwed up two moves ago. That's not a fault of the character.

Oh they did? thats cool
While I'm sure you're not aiming this at me, I was just hust saying that the combination of having poor frame data AND the poor range which is a real weakness for the tiniest Mii and why I, and a good number of other Swordfighters use EVO Swordfighter over Tiniest Swordfighter

 

[GeneralLedge]

By far the neatest thing about Swordie to me is how wildly his playstyle changes depending explicitly on the Mii size itself. Makes me really wish there were some variation with available sets on the character intended to variate with more than single sets. (Wait a tic...)

Tiny sword gets very strong frame data but needs to risk much more to get in. Once in, the combo game is real.

EVO sword has slightly weaker frame data, but benefits with the ability to get in more, and has a safety net with the better disjoint.

Medium sword has much better disjoint and can theoretically wall out threats long enough to just wait for the opponent to screw up, then nail them with the crazy good range on Fsmash, which kills at ~80% or so. Harder to get combos into uair, but fair has a range benefit, and dair is probably(?) more effective for blitzkrieg dives into the pit with your opponent.

Meanwhile, we have giant sword. Giant sword is very difficult to play, but I want you to close your eyes and imagine playing Ganondorf with a sword as tall as he is. On the one hand, Giant sword is slow. On the other hand, his nair is ****normous and efficient play can result in your opponent never getting in on you. Moreover, it makes Blurring Blade severely more effective, since the active hitbox is higher from the ground and it actually prevents opponents from shielding the final hit. Very powerful, but it's a shame the additional weight doesn't have as big a factor as it could have.


I'm curious if any brawlers/gunners know if there's this much variation in their character's size? Is there any niche benefit to a giant gunner/brawler, I wonder?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Hah, I tried both medium, giant, and Tiny. The Ganondorf reference was one I also made in my head playing giant. Alas I don't see neither medium nor Giant being very good, Swordfighter really benefits from speed IMO, sure Tiny has less range but getting in is easier anyway, and you can zone more effectively with it, not needing to dedicate yourself to straight on approaches unless an opening presents itself :O

 

[BSP]

His throws are great but ridiculously hard to use due to him having one of the worst tether grabs in this game (I legitimately feel when playing as him that Pac-Man's grab is better!).

You haven't played enough of Pac-Man then. At least Lucas' grab actually grabs until the snake stops extending. Pac-Man's grab is loaded with dead spots with the initial grab box (that's right on his hand, arm is dead >.>) lasts two frames. He has 20 more frames of lag on his standing grab compared to Lucas', and 10 more for the other two. If that's not enough, the tractor beam sound effect ensures that the opponent knows you're a complete sitting duck for more than a full second.