Character Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

anyone else excited to see bill trinen compete at EVO?
I wonder who he plays?

 

[Nu~]

@ Nu~ you got to see this.

You're a little too slow there brah.
Unfortunately, most of the stuff in that video is highly situational and would only work on an opponent that has dropped the controller.

Amusingly, Abandango keeps getting sent links for the video even though he strongly dislikes it

 

[Scream]

I know, hence why I didn't quote that bit

Also @ Scream I haven't read your whole post as I have nothing to add about a discussion on Samus' kill moves but you should note that no good player will ever get ledge trumped because you can buffer ledge getup actions to avoid it 100% of the time.

And

I see it as something you won't be able to set up often against a good player, to be honest. The only way to make your trump unreactable to the defender is to stand right on the edge of the stage. This limits the rest of your edgeguarding and not only cuts out your offstage options but encourages a the opponent not to go for the ledge every time. If they have a good high recovery they can mix up their recovery even further and avoid the trumping scenario altogether a lot of the time. This is character dependent in fairness though, so someone like Pikachu can choose to recover high whenever they want but for someone lik Falcon, recovering high is a huge risk.

You are technically right though. I probably should change "never" to "rarely". You will never ledge trump a good player if they KNOW it's coming, but yeah, there are ways to make ledge trumps unreactable and force 50/50s out of them. The effectiveness changes a lot from character to character.

Samus has the options to stay on stage or go for a trump or/and gimp.
Especially Tether quickly turns an edge guard into a trump. On top of that you only need to get the trump once for a kill.
Even though it is definitely not 50/50, chances are , that if you are able to outthink your opponent at the ledge Samus has all the tools necessary to end a stock very early.

In the end all i wanted to demonstrate is that Samus lacks in a lot of aspects, but killing is not one of them.

 

[Ffamran]

anyone else excited to see bill trinen compete at EVO?
I wonder who he plays?

Played Rosalina with the early builds of Smash 4 and was responsible for JV4'ing Toph.

Now, he plays Yoshi, but I don't remember who said that. I think it might have been the guys from Tourney Locator, but I'm not sure. They just randomly mentioned his name and who he played and I just ended up remembering a very useless fact. I think it was because they were talking about the Nintendo World tournament that NinjaLink won?

 

[Lavani]

anyone else excited to see bill trinen compete at EVO?
I wonder who he plays?

Yo.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know, hence why I didn't quote that bit

Also @ Scream I haven't read your whole post as I have nothing to add about a discussion on Samus' kill moves but you should note that no good player will ever get ledge trumped because you can buffer ledge getup actions to avoid it 100% of the time.

Buffering a ledge getup (notably, you can't buffer ledge stand, ledge drop, or instant aerials out of ledge jump) is also pretty punishable and most characters don't need to commit to anything really unsafe to punish individual ledge getup options significantly. Usually the safest way to respond to ledge traps, especially if you're a character that hangs really low from the ledge is to simply wait and react to your opponent's movements. Trumping is definitely viable as a mixup as long as waiting on the ledge is in fact a strong option defensively and ledge stand also can't be buffered.

 

[FullMoon]

Yo.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Bon Bon was disappointed that day.

 

[bc1910]

Buffering a ledge getup is also pretty punishable and most characters don't need to commit to anything really unsafe to punish individual ledge getup options significantly. Usually the safest way to respond to ledge traps, especially if you're a character that hangs really low from the ledge is to simply wait and react to your opponent's movements. Trumping is definitely viable as a mixup as long as waiting on the ledge is in fact a strong option defensively.

That's massively character dependent. A lot of characters have moves that reach below the ledge to kill anyone hanging on there, no matter how low they hang from the ledge. Trumping isn't better than using one of those moves unless the move has reactable startup lag. You're often looking at a guaranteed kill from those moves at percents as low as 50; trumping cannot offer that. Again, this is hugely character dependent.

I'm not saying trumping is useless as a mixup but I don't think it's amazing. I would say viable is a decent word to describe it. I went over my opinion of it earlier.

 

[Luco]

BONEY DOESN'T SUCK! HE'S JUST... FLUFFY!

>_>

Far be it from me to comment on smash 4's Marth in the most technical of ways seeing as I don't main him, but I will tell you all that I played two of the few-ish characters that got absolutely pooped on by Marth in Brawl and it was more than just the grab release. Being walled out by Fair was the most blatantly un-fun experience ever, you just weren't getting in because, sure, you could PS his SH retreating Fair but high level players weren't so one-dimensional, and hell even when you could you weren't always getting a punish out of it because lol AC windows. Try to challenge it in the air and get tippered for it. I live(d, and will continue to do so post-November) in Australia, land of the (then) Marth mains, including @ Shaya who asked me before every match "do you want me to go for CGs or not?"

My answer never affected the outcome of the match. And people really want that kind of sillyness back? Emblem Lord said it right a long time ago - Marth is one of those characters you do NOT want ruling your meta-game. Characters with massive disjoint-based playstyles who wall other characters out have the potential to be oppressive top tier status and it's not fun for 75% of the rest of the cast.

 

[Djent]

Rain is Japan's best player and seeding him "only" at 10th seems kind of low though he has a history of underperforming in the USA.

FWIW I would have given him a top 5 seed, but he was initially unseeded and putting him in that slot required an easy switch instead of a large bracket overhaul.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Pretty sure EVO seeds are based on road to evo tournaments. So if you don't go to those events you're most likely won't be seeded.

 

[|RK|]

Played Rosalina with the early builds of Smash 4 and was responsible for JV4'ing Toph.

Now, he plays Yoshi, but I don't remember who said that. I think it might have been the guys from Tourney Locator, but I'm not sure. They just randomly mentioned his name and who he played and I just ended up remembering a very useless fact. I think it was because they were talking about the Nintendo World tournament that NinjaLink won?

Wait, is Trinen good?!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wait, is Trinen good?!

I remember being impressed with his Rosalina back in the prerelease days, but that was when game footage in general was pretty rare, so...low standards.

He's not Reggie-tier though, if that's what you're worried about.

 

[Nobie]

Even after Falco's buffs, he still feels like one of the most honest characters in the game.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I know this isn't what we're talking about right now, but I'd like to address something that I've been seeing a lot more of lately: the complaint that Dr. Mario ought to be closer to Mario on the tier list. I think that Doc is more fun to play, but he is also significantly worse. Here's why. (Not considering customs. I don't bother with them much.)

General:
Combos and damage: Doc actually has more trouble racking up damage, despite dealing more damage with every move. This is because his slower speed and higher knockback makes it either more difficult or impossible to pull off Mario's brainless low percent strings. Doc's d-throw has more knockback which further harms his over-all combo ability.

Mobility: Doc is noticeably slower. Mario is ranked at #27-28 in terms of dash speed, solidly in the middle. Doc is ranked at #49, towards the very bottom. Mario is #28 in walk speed, and doc is #42. This is a pretty big difference. Mario is tied for #7-14 at horizontal air speed, but Doc is languishing down at #36-39. Doc also doesn't jump as high, and lacks the ability to cape stall. This all makes his approach far more predictable and difficult.

Recovery: Besides the issues with his jump height and horizontal air speed, Doc's up-b doesn't cover as much distance. Mario's recovery is already not that great in terms of distance, and Doc's is one of the worst in the game.

Edge-guarding/offstage: Mario is one of the best edge-guarders in the game. His cape is better for that, because it connects slightly more easily (His cape is supposed to have more horizontal range than Doc's, but I haven't found it to be too noticeable of a difference.) and slows Mario's descent, which gives him more time to be offstage. (Doc can't really use his cape offstage, because he just keeps falling and will likely end up too far to recover.) Mario's fair is a powerful meteor smash, and FLUDD is great for gimping. And the biggest factor is that Doc is taking a much bigger risk by going offstage in the first place, and can't hang out there nearly as long. So, although Dr. Tornado is incredible at netting offstage KOs, Mario's clear, and large, superiority in gimping, spiking, and recovering make him a lot more impressive here.

Projectile/zoning: Doc's pills go at a different angle from Mario's fireballs. This higher angle, with fewer bounces, is generally less useful. A lot of characters can easily dodge just by standing in place. You can angle the pills with jumping, whoch allows for some nice versatility, but they are generally harder to use than the fireballs. Plus, his slower speed means that he can't really play keep-away.

A moves: (Only the ones with the most notable differences in utility.)
Nair- Doc's nair is interesting, but awkward. It's not a normal sex kick, and Mario's, which is the strongest at the beginning, is far more useful.

Fair- Mario's fair, when you do get kills with it, will be killing at much lower percentages. (In general, Mario has the potential to kill at lower percentages because he can get his kills off of gimping and it's easier for him to get kill confirms. Doc tends to often not be able to KO until higher percents than Mario can, while consistently getting KO'd at lower percents than Mario does.) This is because it's a meteor smash. Doc's is not, with the trade-off being that he gets higher damage and knockback. Unfortunately, the move is very hard to land onstage and using it offstage is suicide due to Doc's poor recovery.

Dair- I don't exactly know which one is better. Doc's deals more damage, but is not as easy to land because Mario's has less startup and slightly more range. (Mario spins with his arms stuck out, whereas Doc just spins and hits with his body while having to get in pretty close to take advantage of the extra damage.)

Bair: Doc's bair is significantly better. No argument there.

Jab- Doc's jab combo does more damage, as all of his moves do, but it lacks the ability to jab lock and is slower with more end-lag. I believe Doc can still jab lock with Neutral b, but it's not as convenient.

f-smash- Doc's f-smash is a lot more powerful, but also more difficult to land. Mario has short range in the first place, but Doc's f-smash has even shorter range with a sweetspot closer to his body.

B moves:
Neutral b: (See: Projectile/zoning)

Side b: Doc's cape does more damage, but this doesn't actually matter because cape isn't a move that is used to rack up damage anyway. His cape also has less horizontal range, resulting in a tighter window to reflect projectiles. (This keeps up with a general theme of Doc having less range than Mario. He doesn't have FLUDD as a ranged option, he has slightly less range on dair, his projectile is less effective, he has less range on up-b, and his f-smash has less range as well.) On top of all that, it can't stall in mid-air. Whatever upside there may be to the lack of stalling, it doesn't near compensate for the negatives.

Up-b: Doc's up-b is fantastic as a KO move and an OOS option. But it's an awful recovery move. And it's not as if Mario's up-b lacks offensive potential. Mario's SJP is a safe combo finisher that can be tossed out a lot for extra damage. (It can even KO if you hit your opponent with the full thing while both of you are above the top of the screen. Sort of rare, but always fun.)

Down-b: This is doc's biggest advantage over Mario. FLUDD may be good now, but it's not as good as Dr. Tornado. Doc's down-b KOs very early offstage and out-prioritizes almost everything. Maybe I'm being biased and giving it extra points because a tornado is a lot cooler than a squirt gun, but whatever. My biggest complaints about this move are that the hits don't link together nearly as well as with Luigi's down-b, and Mario's comparatively stubby arms don't really help either. But the KO power sort of makes up for it.

Conclusion:
So, Mario is top-tier due to his versatility and solidity. He has the tools to deal with just about any character in the game, and is a problem match-up for a lot of characters. Meanwhile, he has no truly bad match-ups. He can rack up damage quickly and end stocks early with his amazing gimping. His main flaws seem to be a lack of range and a mediocre recovery. (Of course, while his recovery distance isn't spectacular compared to other characters, it is rather quick and safe. And fortunately, his range problem isn't as bad as it used to be, largely because most of the characters who really took advantage of it were either nerfed or removed. It's actually kind of weird. Mario's counters in Brawl were as follows +3: Meta Knight, Marth, Snake, and King Dedede. +2: Ice Climbers, Falco, Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf, and Peach. With the exception of Peach, every single one of these characters was either removed or severely nerfed in the transition from Brawl to Sm4sh. Conspiracy?) Doc is worse in both of these regards, while also missing out on the insane combos and gimps that make Mario such an effective character in the first place. The extra power and damage per hit are ultimately irrelevant because Doc simply can't get nearly as many hits in.

 

[Teshie U]

Samus has powerful moves, but that doesn't really mean she doesn't struggle to kill. If you crack under her pressure or make a bad move, yea you can die at 40% to a mix up, but if you DI setups properly, watch out for her laggy fsmash and mostly just sit in your shield, she is going to have a tough time getting you at all.

Out of all the tether characters(the grabs most easily avoided and punished), she has the least lethal grab game. Most tether characters have a kill throw to take you out before 200% at least (Pacman, Link, Tlink, Lucas, Olimar) or Kill setups out of throws (Lucas, PacMan, ZSS). Yoshi is the only other tether character lacking that and he eats shields very aggressively anyway. I wonder if Samus didn't get a killing throw(or setup) because her shield pressure was presumed to be Yoshi level?

 

[Ffamran]

Wait, is Trinen good?!

Well, considering he's a Nintendo employee who probably had more time with Smash than Toph did, don't know. Oh, and Rosalina was probably stronger in the early builds. As for now, I don't know, but if he did go to the Nintendo World tournament and did fairly well, then he might be a good player. I mean, there's a Neogaf-sponsored player going to EVO and there was a Giant Bomb employee, Dan Ryckert, who went to Come and Ban #21.

Eh, we'll just have to see and it's not surprising as anyone could play this game. Hell, for all we know, Will Smith loves playing Smash, but he doesn't compete despite playing at a high level because of work and family.

 

[|RK|]

Well, considering he's a Nintendo employee who probably had more time with Smash than Toph did, don't know. Oh, and Rosalina was probably stronger in the early builds. As for now, I don't know, but if he did go to the Nintendo World tournament and did fairly well, then he might be a good player. I mean, there's a Neogaf-sponsored player going to EVO and there was a Giant Bomb employee, Dan Ryckert, who went to Come and Ban #21.

Eh, we'll just have to see and it's not surprising as anyone could play this game. Hell, for all we know, Will Smith loves playing Smash, but he doesn't compete despite playing at a high level because of work and family.

Dude, do you have any idea how amazing it would be if Will Smith was good at Smash and won EVO?

 

[Ffamran]

Dude, do you have any idea how amazing it would be if Will Smith was good at Smash and won EVO?

He would need to do something to not be so high profile. Oh, and I'd rather have Scarlett Johansson take EVO.

Anyway, what would the Yoshi and Rosalina team be like? Yoshi covers what of Rosalina's MUs and Rosalina covers what of Yoshi's MUs?

 

[Spinosaurus]

I mean, there's a Neogaf-sponsored player going to EVO

There is? Who? I didn't know about this.

 

[Dagon97]

After watching KP Joey vs Wizzrobe and KP Joey taking a game off of ZeRo's Sheik before he switched to Diddy, I am starting to doubt the Sheik v. Mii Brawler is good for Sheik possibly 3:70. Looking over those two sets it seems mad hard and Sheik doesn't seems to have all too many answers. Could Mii Brawler become a sort of anti-meta character? How are his match-ups compared to the other high tiers. It has also become consensus of Sheik boards that Yoshi beats Sheik 45:55, I need to go soon so I'll add details to these match ups in a few hours after I come home.

 

[Ffamran]

There is? Who? I didn't know about this.

Search "Neogaf" here: http://evo2015.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/players.html. There's sloanerisette who's in pool B39, enigma fool in pool C52, and qistoptier in pool C56. Who they are, who they play, and if they're good or not, I don't know. They could just be using "Neogaf" as a clan tag and have no affiliation with Neogaf or they could be affiliated with Neogaf.

 

[LiteralGrill]

After watching KP Joey vs Wizzrobe and KP Joey taking a game off of ZeRo's Sheik before he switched to Diddy, I am starting to doubt the Sheik v. Mii Brawler is good for Sheik possibly 3:70. Looking over those two sets it seems mad hard and Sheik doesn't seems to have all too many answers. Could Mii Brawler become a sort of anti-meta character? How are his match-ups compared to the other high tiers. It has also become consensus of Sheik boards that Yoshi beats Sheik 45:55, I need to go soon so I'll add details to these match ups in a few hours after I come home.

Well consider after Evo there's an enormous chance that almost all majors will limit him to a 1-1-1-1 not too likely :/

But minus that... I dunno. I need more specifics here. Is Mii Brawler able to change his sized to small? What about the moves he can use? The ruleset Brawler is under really does matter a LOT .

 

[Djent]

Pretty sure EVO seeds are based on road to evo tournaments. So if you don't go to those events you're most likely won't be seeded.

There is? Who? I didn't know about this.

2013 was the last year with an official Road to EVO. Tournament results are still considered for seeding, but there is no points system as it tended to lead to inaccurate seeding anyway.

 

[Speed Boost]

By far the neatest thing about Swordie to me is how wildly his playstyle changes depending explicitly on the Mii size itself. Makes me really wish there were some variation with available sets on the character intended to variate with more than single sets. (Wait a tic...)

Tiny sword gets very strong frame data but needs to risk much more to get in. Once in, the combo game is real.

EVO sword has slightly weaker frame data, but benefits with the ability to get in more, and has a safety net with the better disjoint.

Medium sword has much better disjoint and can theoretically wall out threats long enough to just wait for the opponent to screw up, then nail them with the crazy good range on Fsmash, which kills at ~80% or so. Harder to get combos into uair, but fair has a range benefit, and dair is probably(?) more effective for blitzkrieg dives into the pit with your opponent.

Meanwhile, we have giant sword. Giant sword is very difficult to play, but I want you to close your eyes and imagine playing Ganondorf with a sword as tall as he is. On the one hand, Giant sword is slow. On the other hand, his nair is ****normous and efficient play can result in your opponent never getting in on you. Moreover, it makes Blurring Blade severely more effective, since the active hitbox is higher from the ground and it actually prevents opponents from shielding the final hit. Very powerful, but it's a shame the additional weight doesn't have as big a factor as it could have.


I'm curious if any brawlers/gunners know if there's this much variation in their character's size? Is there any niche benefit to a giant gunner/brawler, I wonder?

I actually prefer the Medium Mii Brawler over the Tiny one. He still has great mobility because he is Mii Brawler and his Short Hop game is so much better IMO. I use a lot of SH NAir out of shield and to cover rolls, which is harder to do when your SH is basically a FH. His reach is also better for poking with FTilt and DTilt. Spacing FAir and BAir on shield is also easier. It may affect his combo game at higher %, but your kill get harder to confirm after 60-70 percent anyways.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ SpottedCerberus You said Mario is one of the best edgeguarders in the game. Seriously?

He literally has no options to kill anyone who recovers low and techs a stage spike B-air. Bottom 3 character at edgeguarding easy. He's competing with Toon Link and Little Mac for having the worst edgeguards in the game legitimately.

Also, Doc's Jab is way better than Mario's because he actually has Jab cancel combos (Jab-> Up-B works on floaty characters) and Mario does not.

Also both Doc and Mario have terrible F-smashes that really just shouldn't hit anyone that know the matchup very often. Doc's is actually better because it rewards you more in the one situation where you can legitimately hit a good player with it: in boxing wars, where the stronger close range hitbox is a big deal. The range difference is inconsequential when neither of these characters should be using F-smash in footsies 95% of the time.

Also Doc and Mario Cape have the same horizontal range iirc. It's only Shocking Cape/Sheet that have different range. Furthermore the range difference means absolutely nothing for reflecting. Instead, the bigger vertical hitbox on Doc's Cape, and the lack of stalling property makes it noticeably superior for edgeguarding.

Another thing to note is Mario, in addition to being unable to kill you for recovering low, also pretty much cannot kill you in the air without Shocking Cape either. Doc's 3 frame Up-B in contrast is one of the better aerial KO moves in the game. This makes Doc SIGNIFICANTLY more threatening on platform stages when Mario doesn't really have any air mixups that kill.

 

[Teshie U]

I feel bad for anyone using Mii Brawler. In Default he is a pretty honest rushdown character that works for his kills alot harder than sheik, sonic or falcon but he is held back alot by his terrible recovery (easier to gimp his specials than little macs honestly).

Then in customs, he turns into a cancerous grab spammy character skewing risk reward disgustingly with nonstop cheese.

Honestly all that character needed was a competent recovery or a more reliable way to KO, but he got such a shockingly powerful set of both.

I still don't get why his Up B is so similar to Mii Swordsman, yet it doesn't combo or anything...

 

[Speed Boost]

I feel bad for anyone using Mii Brawler. In Default he is a pretty honest rushdown character that works for his kills alot harder than sheik, sonic or falcon but he is held back alot by his terrible recovery (easier to gimp his specials than little macs honestly).

Then in customs, he turns into a cancerous grab spammy character skewing risk reward disgustingly with nonstop cheese.

Honestly all that character needed was a competent recovery or a more reliable way to KO, but he got such a shockingly powerful set of both.

I still don't get why his Up B is so similar to Mii Swordsman, yet it doesn't combo or anything...

I have to disagree with you on his customs being "Cheese". He is no more cheese than ZSS or any other risk reward character. With Helicopter Kick he has a small window in terms of percent where he can get the true combo and kill with it and he needs to be very close to the edge.

If you can get that setup against someone who knows that's all they need to avoid than you have earned it "honestly." Outside of that kill setup is one of the most honest of characters.

He is a good character, certainly not a overpowered or cheesy character IMO.

 

[DanGR]

Well consider after Evo there's an enormous chance that almost all majors will limit him [Mii Brawler] to a 1-1-1-1 not too likely :/

This, still? Says who?

 

[deepseadiva]

Anything is "honest" in this game as long as both players have equal access to it on the character select screen.

 

[Antonykun]

I feel bad for anyone using Mii Brawler. In Default he is a pretty honest rushdown character that works for his kills alot harder than sheik, sonic or falcon but he is held back alot by his terrible recovery (easier to gimp his specials than little macs honestly).

Then in customs, he turns into a cancerous grab spammy character skewing risk reward disgustingly with nonstop cheese.

Honestly all that character needed was a competent recovery or a more reliable way to KO, but he got such a shockingly powerful set of both.

I still don't get why his Up B is so similar to Mii Swordsman, yet it doesn't combo or anything...

uhh down throw SAK is a thing for brawler at low percents
also Brawler having more trouble killing than sheik should be all anyone needs to know why this character is bad.

 

[DanGR]

What do you mean she has trouble killing? Sheik has plenty of kill setups. Do you mean like if you're bad and/or don't know about them?

 

[LiteralGrill]

This, still? Says who?

I can't think of a major off the top of my head planned and already announced past Evo that has Miis fully legal in terms of moves. I'd be VERY happy to have that statement proven false though. Either way it seems the Smash "super majors" don't have em planed as of now though, which stinks.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What do you mean she has trouble killing? Sheik has plenty of kill setups. Do you mean like if you're bad and/or don't know about them?

People like to compare. Her killpower is far from bad but it's much worse than almost every patch prior. It's the Greninja effect. So many people say greninja sucks because they "nerfed him so many times." But they only actually nerfed him once (Up smash and N spec). Everything else was just removing exploits. If Greninja were the was he is now back at launch, he'd probably seem a lot better and that joke wouldn't exist. Same goes for Sheik's killpower. Bouncing fish still kills hella early even if it isn't as hella early as 1.0.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I have to disagree with you on his customs being "Cheese". He is no more cheese than ZSS or any other risk reward character. With Helicopter Kick he has a small window in terms of percent where he can get the true combo and kill with it and he needs to be very close to the edge.

If you can get that setup against someone who knows that's all they need to avoid than you have earned it "honestly." Outside of that kill setup is one of the most honest of characters.

He is a good character, certainly not a overpowered or cheesy character IMO.

Then again he also doesnt have a 16 frame grab so he has more chances to use those options then zss. His risk reward seems to be a little bit better.

 

[TriTails]

Which games again? Last I checked, wasn't he only faster in like...Super Mario Galaxy? Even in the M&L series he's slower..

Now that I think about it. Maybe, yeah. I think he ran faster in SM64DS because he can run on water but I think it's about weight.

Oh right. In DS version of M&S 2010 Winter Games, he was faster but has weaker power. Not sure on 2008 or the Wii version, but I think they also follow the same principle.

M&L series was probably because they wanted to do 'Luigi attacks after Mario' thing. In Superstar Saga there's even a Luigi-exclusive gear that makes him attack after Mario.

Ryu is not the best imo. But the ability to CONSISTENTLY seal a stock from a punish starting at 90%? That is insane and CANNOT be ignored. Thats the main reason I play him honestly. When I force an error from my opponent I want to end their life, not settle for a pitiful grab or dash attack. I wanna end it.

: Yo. That's been my thing since 64. Don't forget .

And also, EVO has False fighting Mr. CC in quarters? Why the **** Luigis must kill each other...

 

[Speed Boost]

Then again he also doesnt have a 16 frame grab so he has more chances to use those options then zss. His risk reward seems to be a little bit better.

In ZSS's case she has amazing kill setups and combos at the cost of a reliable grab. XX22 Mii Brawler trades vertical recovery for early kill setups near the edge out of down throw and down b.

So, ZSS is balanced by the risk reward of her risky grab and Brawler is balanced by he gimpability and trouble killing at higher percents. Brawler's risk reward archetype is actually more like Little Mac in terms of his weakness being mostly recovery and edgeguarding.

 

[DanGR]

I can't think of a major off the top of my head planned and already announced past Evo that has Miis fully legal in terms of moves. I'd be VERY happy to have that statement proven false though. Either way it seems the Smash "super majors" don't have em planed as of now though, which stinks.

I just don't see how "majors happening in the immediate future" translates into "all majors from now on." You're definitely in a better position than I am to know about announced events, though.

People like to compare. Her killpower is far from bad but it's much worse than almost every patch prior. It's the Greninja effect. So many people say greninja sucks because they "nerfed him so many times." But they only actually nerfed him once (Up smash and N spec). Everything else was just removing exploits. If Greninja were the was he is now back at launch, he'd probably seem a lot better and that joke wouldn't exist. Same goes for Sheik's killpower. Bouncing fish still kills hella early even if it isn't as hella early as 1.0.

I think people still think she legitimately has trouble killing, as if her kill setups don't exist, or there aren't enough of them to kill with consistently or something.

I'll name a few:

• Any setup for an airdodge bait->upsmash tipper. There's plenty.
• Falling upair->dsmash/fsmash
• Dthrow->run double jump... If you don't airdodge, you risk dying to upair. If you do airdodge, you risk getting upaired/vanish killed. 50:50 at kill percents- usually at about 120%~ish depending on the character/stage.
• Soft nair->bouncing fish
• Full hop needles->bouncing fish
• A myriad of different edgeguarding tactics- too many to get into.
• Vanish kill from punishing ledge getups- it's a safe attempt if you autocancel it at the right height.

None of these are even risky options. You have several for punishing airdodges, lots of kill setups offstage, and several hit confirm kills from aerials.

 

[Vipermoon]

More Omni logic. I generally agree with this.

 

[Ikes]

you know im starting to wonder how good bill trinen is, anyone have any videos of him playing Yoshi/Rosalina?