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Character Competitive Impressions

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TTTTTsd

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Serious question: Is Falco really missing anything to be considered an actively good character? He has reliable combos off of grab up to triple-digit percents, above-average follow-ups on many low-risk pokes, great range and safety in neutral, multiple burst range options, a perfectly-serviceable recovery, nice edgeguarding options, KO options in a variety of situations, a good tool for avoiding juggles in Forward-B...

He is somewhat slow but holds his ground quite well. The only thing that sticks out is that KO setups are hard to come by, but he has good and fast (if risky) KO tools all across his moveset.



Same here. "How do you feel now, idiot?"
Yeah as of this update I don't think he's that lacking. A lot of my problems with him prepatch were
- Poor disadvantaged state
- Wonky aerials in certain situations
These issues kind of run parallel. Nair working properly is a huge buff, Uair having no sourspot and being 4 frames faster is also a giant buff. His air game has been entirely revamped and it feels way more functional Nair autolinking makes his disadvantage a tad less bad, but the improvements to his air game (and adversely his combo game) are more than enough to get around that to some extent IMO. With the wonky aerials gone, his disadv. state has gotten a bit better. I think he's pretty decent now.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Also, personally I think Falco's phantasm is..... not that great. If he uses it in neutral, good job, you did below 10% to your opponent at best and at worst you put yourself in a bad position. Offstage, it's so predictable even when it shouldn't be - SH Nair it with half the cast because its hitboxes are... kinda bad imo. There are times when it's useful but for the most part I'm just not afraid of it.
Forward-B has great synergy with the rest of his spacing tools. At ranges where Down-B is unsafe on hit, the opponent has to content with Falco's Jab and excellent tilts, which is what they should be afraid of, or at least annoyed by. As a result of the respect given to those moves, aerial Forward-B becomes pretty safe to use, getting you out of poor stage position and putting the opponent off the ground at higher percents.

Shorthop N-Air has hitboxes that are more than sufficient for significant comboing and air punishes. Being Frame 3 is pretty nice, and the autolink angles give you the luxury of manipulating where you want the opponent to be when they're sent away, on top of not needing much precision to land the full move.

The thing is, the moves in question are not what Falco makes you fear, but that's all the better for him because the tools worth fearing allow him to pepper you with all this extra stuff. Things just tend to work pretty well together as Falco now. He's not incredible but he appears to have most of the things we expect from characters that succeed.
 
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Superbat

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@ TheReflexWonder TheReflexWonder
Mobility Is falco's main problem. Post I made in falco boards.
His mobility hinders him from going above mid tier in my opinion. When people realize how easy it is to lame him out, (lack luster approach options) the Falco hype will die pretty quickly. The buffs to him from the last patch were definitely awesome though.
Gets camped by the majority of the high/top tier in this game.

:4greninja:'ed
 
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TheReflexWonder

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Lame him out with what, though? Yes, he has trouble approaching, but so does something like half the cast. He has the tools to make it so people a mile away take more damage than him, make it so people can't come at him easily, and make it so that they pay significantly when they make a mistake.

Rosalina can be lamed out pretty hard but is still seen as Top 5 material. Luigi is still seen as incredible. I'm not saying that Falco is -that- good, but, surely there's more to it than that.
 
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Luco

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It's not meant to instill fear, Luco. It's a tool for Falco to get out of hairy situations, and depending on the character, it works. At least that's what I've seen out of smart Falcos, anyway.

Smooth Criminal
Right, but like, I dunno, I feel as though it doesn't get him out of hairy situations anywhere near as well as it should because of its hitbox placements. Perhaps 'scary' is the wrong word to use, I just mean like, say Falco is trying to recover, if he's reasonably far out, he uses it high and I punish the endlag with a Uair, he uses it at mid-level and I SH Nair it, he uses it to get to the edge and I run off and Nair it (which I start to do when he gets to my level, I don't mean to pretend you can just react to it like that of course but still) or in my case, PK Fire even, if he uses it below the ledge, then he still has to either jump or upB and I can continue going for the edge-guard.

I suppose it can be safe in neutral at times, and I realise not seeing it as a major threat allows it to be a bit more of a presence(isn't that ironic) like you said @ TheReflexWonder TheReflexWonder , but I dunno, I feel like I hit or shield it/punish it more often than Falco gets any real benefits out of it, but I'll concede that perhaps its use is more subtle and requires more thought than I am commonly accustomed to seeing from the move.
 

Superbat

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What I'm saying is that the buffs to falco has made him into a decent character now, but it wasn't enough to put him in any of the higher tiers. He's a combo god now, but he's also combo food. (Cant take beatings like Capt. Falcon like Ffamran has been saying) For once in smash bros, Falco is a balanced character. (compared to pre patch lol) Thats enough for me :)
 
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TheReflexWonder

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As an aside, Falco Forward-B seems like a nice move for gimping Ness; I was using it against my brother to good effect. You hit/spike Ness and then get hit upward by the Up-B.
 

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Yamcha is actually number 1 in the tiers in DBZ: Infinite World, the Budokai 3 rebalance version more or less. Best standing jab in the game, can be cancelled and stuffs everything.

On topic: Go Falco!!!!
 

FullMoon

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Falco is a character I really wanted to use when I got the game back in the 3DS version but the many problems he had made me stray from him. I already mained Greninja on day 1 so I was just looking for a secondary back then.

I kinda want to pick him up again but now that Lucas is here I don't think I need another secondary.
 

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@ Luco Luco

Again, it's not a matter of hitting people with it. It's the additional mobility that I was referring to, and on-stage. Reflex pretty much covered what I was inferring.

Smooth Criminal
 
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A2ZOMG

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As I said before about Falco, he seems to have good COUTERPICK utility competitively. NOTABLY, his matchup against Sheik deserves notice.

I mean consider the following:
BETTER boxing than Sheik (2 frame Jab that has REALLY huge range, very strong tilts for footsies that lead to nice damage combos)
Lasers + reflector to favorably trade against Needle camping
N-air buff makes it a strong anti-air AND edgeguard tool against Sheik (you can easily punish her for doing Bouncing Fish or sweetspotting the ledge and potentially KO her)

Sure, he sucks against someone like Falcon as his poor negative state gets him owned there. But in the big picture competitively, I don't think Falco is someone you can sleep on. His position in the meta deserves respect.
 
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Luco

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@ Luco Luco

Again, it's not a matter of hitting people with it. It's the additional mobility that I was referring to, and on-stage. Reflex pretty much covered what I was inferring.

Smooth Criminal
Yeah, fair I guess. When can you envision this at its most useful? Like, can you (Or Reflex) give some examples? I'm just trying to see it better in my head.
 

Ffamran

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Isn't balancing discussion banned in this thread?

Sheik mainly needs the knockback on needle storm reduced. And other needles related nerfs. There are lots of different ways to adjust them.

Fair having a worse autocancel would be good as well, but it's not as important.
It's okay so long as you thoughtfully consider what makes a move so good or so bad. So, if I just randomly said Ganondorf should run as fast as Bowser, that would be a no-no. Consider the entire effects of it. If Ganondorf ran as fast as Bowser, he'd arguably be the best heavyweight. His aerials are fast courtesy of being a semi-clone of Captain Falcon, his tilts are pretty average speed, his Dash Attack is crazy, his dash grab would be better as he could rush in and grab, and that speed would allow him to rush in, keep pace, and probably punish projectiles much more easily. That speed and power would make him even more of a monster.

Now, if I suggested that Sheik get her pre-patch Bair back, people might think I'm crazy. Sheik's pre-patch Bair was a kill tool and a combo tool for her, but it wasn't that strong. Her Bair is among the fastest, but it's not like say, Falco's Bair. That would be ridiculous and I doubt Diddy would have been dominating if Sheik had Falco's Bair with her Bair's hitbox and her mobility. Now it's just kind of there where it is useful, but overshadowed by other moves. Why Bair, though? The problem people often cite is her Fair. So why did the developers nerf Bair? Fair could be changed in a way where Bair should return to its original state. Even without changing Fair, Needles, etc., Bair going back to its original state wouldn't suddenly give her an option that invalidates everyone. It's not like she's getting a disjoint on her Bair or having a move powered purely by knockback growth allowing her to combo with it early on and kill fairly early, especially compared to her quicker kill opitions.

Serious question: Is Falco really missing anything to be considered an actively good character? He has reliable combos off of grab up to triple-digit percents, above-average follow-ups on many low-risk pokes, great range and safety in neutral, multiple burst range options, a perfectly-serviceable recovery, nice edgeguarding options, KO options in a variety of situations, a good tool for avoiding juggles in Forward-B...

He is somewhat slow but holds his ground quite well. The only thing that sticks out is that KO setups are hard to come by, but he has good and fast (if risky) KO tools all across his moveset.
Because I like typing wall of text, I'll make this easy on everyone's screens. :p
Common issues against him: mobility and lack of safe approach options. For the first one, mobility is something that most top tiers in previous games had. In some way, be it ground or aerial, the top tiers were fast. Some were exceptions including Falco since they had really stupid and/or broken tools like Falco's Blaster or Snake's disjoints, Grenades, weight, and power. Those gave them really, really good approach options. In Smash 4, Falco has none of that and in many cases, they were strengthened for Fox. The small increase to Fox's air speed from Brawl? Fox "didn't" need that since Fox is already fast on the ground while Falco is already slow on the ground and in the air.

Falco and Dr. Mario running ridiculously slow, especially for Dr. Mario is just stupid. They're not carrying much - that lab coat better be freaking bulletproof to justify Dr. Mario's slow run speed - and canonically, Falco was trained in a military academy which even if you're a pilot, you have to be in tip-top shape. Then you see Falco getting out-sped by Wario, a fat man, Lucas, a little kid, and Ike, a man carrying a two-handed sword and wearing heavy armor. As for Dr. Mario, getting out-sped by a fat penguin and Peach who's in a dress is really stupid. If Falco was as fast as Mario and Ryu or even Pit, Falco wouldn't be struggling with keeping pace while Dr. Mario being as fast as Luigi or slightly below like where Falco is would be good - better than being slower than Triple D. As it stands, if Wolf comes back with his air speed, Falco would be the slowest overall between Fox and Wolf; Fox is fast on the ground, Wolf is fast in the air, and Falco jumps high... What about air speed? Falco having better air speed would be nice, but too much and I think he could be broken. Greninja and ZSS have good air speed and jump high as well, but they don't have many lingering hitboxes like Falco, they don't have his Uair or Bair which can be setup from Uair, they don't have Reflector Void which is a large horizontal disjoint if customs are considered.

The other problem is design, especially for grabs. For those of you who look into frame data, but have any of you noticed that certain characters share grab hit frames? Oh, but it's a no-brainer for Marth and Lucina or the Pits... Marth, Lucina, Robin, and Roy all share a standing grab of 7, dash grab of 8, and pivot grab of 9. Dr. Mario, Mario, and Luigi all share a standing grab of 6, dash grab of 8, and pivot grab of 9. For Fox and Falco, they share a dash grab of 10 and pivot grab of 11, but Fox's standing grab is 6 while Falco's is 8. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon share the same standing grab of 7, but Ganondorf's dash grab is 11 and pivot grab is 10 while Captain Falcon's dash grab is 9 and pivot grab is 12. A little different between those too, but here's the main question: why do the fast characters or characters known to have incredibly strong grab and/or throw games have the fastest grabs? For Mega Man, it makes sense for him to have a fast grab since his CQC is "bad" or by design supposed to be bad, but Captain Falcon? Dude, his dash grab is insane and then you have Ganondorf whose dash grab is slower than his pivot and he can't abuse his running speed to dash grab like Captain Falcon. Luigi's grabs are strong since he can distract you with Fireballs and jab cancel into them. This means he's mostly dealing with a frame 6 grab or a frame 8. Roy is much faster than Marth and Lucina and significantly faster than Robin, so why are his grabs so damn fast? His throw game is pretty good too unlike Fox who doesn't get much other than positional rewards, but still, when Fox can abuse his run speed to get a dash grab or just confirm it from a jab, it's annoying to say the least. From jab canceling, Fox's options from quickest to slowest is Utilt (frame 6 late hit) - maybe reverse (frame 3) too -, Dash Attack? (frame 4, but he has to dash first), Ftilt (frame 6), standing grab (frame 6), Down Smash (frame 6), Dtilt (frame 7), Up Smash (frame 8), dash grab (frame 10, but he'll need to dash first), pivot grab (frame 11, but he'll need to dash first), and Side Smash (frame 13). Assuming reverse Utilt is the quickest, let's say 1 frame to turn around, then standing grab and Down Smash are his second fastest options, but if it's the late hit of Utilt, then all three are his fastest options. Oh, and the end lag is worse for Falco too; Fox acts out of standing grab at frame 29, dash grab at 36, and pivot grab at 34 while Falco acts out at frame 32, 40, and 37 respectively. We all know chaingrabs were a problem in Brawl, but chaingrabs don't exist anymore, so Falco's Brawl grab of frame 6-7 wouldn't be as severe. What happened to Melee frame 7 standing grab? If it were up to me, I would make all of Falco's grabs 1 frame faster, Ganondorf's grabs 1 frame faster - seriously though, it's kind of sad when his jab is slower than his grab -, make Luigi's standing grab 1 frame slower and figure out the rest of the characters' end lag, grab frames, etc. before finalizing them and it would take a lot of testing. Y'know, it might not matter for Falco since it's just a frame or two, but for the rest, it does, especially the ones who get grabs easily or are massively rewarded from grabs. Ness having a frame 6 standing grab and frame 8 dash grab does feel annoying when you react just 1 frame slower and Ness grabs you instead since your fastest grab is frame 8.

Projectile depends since there are some characters who don't use their projectiles much and do fine. Mario and Fox have decent projectiles, but they don't necessarily need them or use them a lot like Sheik, Mega Man, Link, etc. who have strong projectiles or versatile ones. And then there's Zelda whose projectiles are just there. Anyway, Falco's projectiles were a strong tool he used well in Melee and pretty much relied on in Brawl. Now, he technically doesn't need it, but there's things like being slow so he can't rush in to approach and his projectile being subpar means he can force approaches like Fox, Luigi, or Duck Hunt. At the same time, does he really need one? Some characters don't have projectiles, but they do fine like Ike, Roy, Captain Falcon, and Sonic. If Falco was fast or fairly mobile on the ground, he might not need any changes to his Blaster. Hell, you could remove his Blaster and make it say, a Reflector "shield" bash and have his current Reflector be his "projectile". That assumes his mobility is changed. If not, then maybe he needs a better projectile to force approaches and approach better.

The hitbox not being complete does make it kind of not safe if he tries to pass through only to undershoot or overshoot into someone's range. In terms of using it to get out, there's also the issue of startup and if Falco's far enough to use it. When options like Monkey Flip, Flip Jump, Bouncing Fish, Dolphin Slash, Spring Jump, Super Jump Punch, and even Fox's Reflector for momentum stalls, it's kind of jarring when you have a frame 19 get out move that's not really safe if people know its distance and get into the deadzone. Sure, Nair connects better, but its range isn't exactly like Mario's Nair, Bair only works if people are behind you and if Falco gets more common, nobody should be behind him, and Uair is basically like trying to Captain Falcon or Ganondorf Nair your way out, but people need to be behind Falco or a little in front of him for the last part to hit. Falco Phantasm is a good move since it can setup follow ups if it hits a grounded opponent and launches them up and it's a good punish for bad edgeguarding, but the fact Fox Illusion works fine while Falco Phantasm has no hitbox on Falco or the later end allowing for Falco to just get punished is just something against it. Ike's Quickdraw can be intercepted easily, but Ike at least has a hitbox in front of him when it connects, Peach's Peach Bomber has a hitbox on her, and Luigi's Missile also has a hitbox on him and if it misfires, you better hope Luigi dies first.

All of this adds onto Falco's poor recovery. Falco Phantasm's messed up hitbox doesn't help that Fire Bird travels less, charges the same time as Fire Fox - both launch around frame 44 -, but Fire Bird doesn't have a strong hitbox to knock people back. Customs help with this, well, Fast Fire Bird does since it launches at frame 13 meaning Falco doesn't have to deal with a charge time and only sacrifices some distance. Distant Fire Bird pretty much worsens his recovery by making it travel slower, have no hitbox while charging, and launching at frame 52 all for traveling 1/2 of FD instead of 1/3. Ganondorf could leisurely drop down and time a Dair like he had bullet time active. If Fire Bird was more like Fire Wolf which had pretty much half the startup, that would be fantastic, but no, Falco's recovery is less safe than Little Mac's...

He has flaws, but all characters have flaws. I think Falco might end up where Brawl Wolf was. Brawl Wolf was ranked 14? which in this game could translate to 20-30. Not really sure, but Falco will be a strong character in a game where there's not a lot of overwhelming matchups, there's not a lot of stupid stuff like Brawl Meta Knight or Brawl Wolf's issues/oversights that lead to little fast fall speed increase, a frame 60 meteor cancel. Even then, if he ends up at say, 50, that's still pretty damn good in a game where nobody's really invalidated. Yes, there are tough MUs, but nobody's going 0:100, 10:90, or 20:80 against like 15 characters or even 5 characters. Well, as far as I know.

The funny thing is that I think, on paper, Falco's probably one of the best and most terrifying characters in the game. Lots of damaging moves, lots of kill options, jumps higher than anyone else, can combo with kill moves, just below average in mobility, low landing lag, not really long end lag on moves, low startup on moves, and has access to 2, but not really reliable kill throws. In practice, he's not overwhelming or underwhelming. Average, I guess? Then you have Sheik who people could say is horrible on paper or Zelda who is fantastic on paper, but it's the opposite.

Then there's this: Falco is similar to PM Wolf. I wanted to try out PM and wanted to play as Wolf, so I watched a tutorial by Chillin. One thing he said which may or may not be true is that PM Wolf doesn't actually have combos. He reads DI and reacts to what opponents do. If that all goes well, he combos them, but not in a guaranteed way. Falco pretty much does the same thing. This does hurt him in a sense that past low percents, Falco won't get anything guaranteed, but it also goes for him when he can combo with anything and kill with anything. You don't true combo with Falco, instead, you understand the game, understand his moves, and just go at it.

Maybe that's why people say he's an "honest" character. Then you're reminded that he can trade using Fair to semi-spike you, gimp you with Fair, gimp you with Nair, send out a stupid disjoint with Reflector, gimp you with Blaster, boot you past the blast zone with Uair, nick you with Dtilt's disjoint, and oh, there's his Bair. :p
 
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Yikarur

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the most stacked european tournament in germany this format was won by solo Fox (with Sheik/Diddy and Sheik being second and third)
An big Netherlands Tournament was won by Ness / Mario but Netherlands are free :p
 
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Macedonian

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God I was gone for like a week and a half from smash and it took me two weeks to catch up on this thread by reading it on all my breaks and lunches at work. This is a hard thread to keep up to and post on. But it's really cool.

I love my bird falco but I don't really see how people keep mentioning side b as a reliable mobility option. High startup and predictable end location. Mean it's punishable on stage and can't be used for an anti juggle, I've never had success using it to get away in the air and when I watch TK, gimr, or lately Keitaro I never see it either (I'd love if anybody else could show me other good falco players).

When discussing Rosaluma balance just done down the disjoint on UPair and Dair. Those moves and maybe the knocckback on jab3 are the only issues I see being a real issue with her

Shiek is harder to balance but I believe needle nerf is the best option, her airials are unique to her and it would really negate her combo game to nerf their landing lag. If you take away for shiek to dictate the pace of the game by toning down needles it really lowers her dominance I think and forces her to camp less I imagine.
 

Macchiato

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Let's talk about WiiFit, I feel that she is underrated due to many players not understanding her and people overexaggerating her problem against short characters.
 

Routa

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Let's talk about WiiFit, I feel that she is underrated due to many players not understanding her and people overexaggerating her problem against short characters.
I think Mr. G&W is the ultimate counter to WFT.

Edit: but seriously I think WFT could work well agaisnt dashers due to her/his superior range.
 
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PUK

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I think Mr. G&W is the ultimate counter agaisnt WFT.
Not really, she struggle more against Alph or Pikachu, and swordies give her a hard(er?) time too.
Even Pikachu is not too hard, but it's frustrating like nothing else.
 

bc1910

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@ FullMoon FullMoon I like aerial shurikens because they have the same ending lag as prepatch shurikens. You can camp certain characters who spend a lot of time around SH height nearly as well as you could prepatch, like Peach and Jigglypuff.

I'm not really into complicated Sheik nerfs. That whole diagonal needles thing wouldn't fix the issue of Sheik being able to punish you for dipping into mid range by throwing 2 or 3 needles. Also wouldn't fix the long range issues because Sheik could just charge needles, powershield any projectiles on reaction, keep charging until full charge, throw them, rinse repeat. It would make it easier to approach Sheik but she would still force the approach from everyone.

I would fix Sheik simply by increasing the startup lag on needles, making needles move slower when thrown, or some combination of both. A range reduction would also be good. This would care of her having an unreactable long range projectile (wow, putting that description on paper makes you realise how dumb needles really are) and will force the approach from her more often. It would also weaken what is probably her best kill setup, offstage needles to BF. We can see how that goes and tackle a Fair nerf later but I think neutering needles is the best thing for Sheik. I'd also change her Bair back to the way it was, I don't see any issue with her having that as a kill move (and I use the term loosely because it didn't even kill offstage until like 110%, and you can forget about killing midscreen with it).

For Rosalina the big thing that needs to change is how well she can defend herself when she's lost Luma. She's barely an offensive threat without Luma, but that doesn't matter when she can just dodge everything for 12 seconds and body people when Luma comes back. Her rolls could use a nerf and her hitboxes/range/disjoints/whatever need to be tweaked so that the galaxies don't just beat everything out.
 
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Routa

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Not really, she struggle more against Alph or Pikachu, and swordies give her a hard(er?) time too.
Even Pikachu is not too hard, but it's frustrating like nothing else.
Yeah I was just joking. But anyways... I think WFT's jab is extremely good against dashers. I mean it is like Ganondorf's F-tilt. I think she does well against Faptain. But then again... I have no idea how she should be played.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Sure, he sucks against someone like Falcon as his poor negative state gets him owned there.
You can Nair out of Falcon's combo as Falco's Nair either beats or trades with Falcon's combo extenders. I think this MU is either even or only slightly in Falcon's favor because of this.
 

PUK

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Yeah I was just joking. But anyways... I think WFT's jab is extremely good against dashers. I mean it is like Ganondorf's F-tilt. I think she does well against Faptain. But then again... I have no idea how she should be played.
You have to play inside the other's dead angle. Crouch, Fair, side B. If the opponent commit to something laggy nair will rack damage and bair will kill. The smash are for hard read, ftilt is your kill move in neutral
 

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Really, what would make Needles a lot more reactable is just making the needles themselves a lot more visible.
 

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I think Mr. G&W is the ultimate counter to WFT.

Edit: but seriously I think WFT could work well agaisnt dashers due to her/his superior range.
Actually no, due to GnW's endlag we can punish with a 50% nair combo. We can also easily bait his bucket to punish with a header. Imo its only like a 45-55 in GnW's favor. Kirby is where WiiFit cries.
 

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Really, what would make Needles a lot more reactable is just making the needles themselves a lot more visible.
Would that really work? I mean, the needles are there, they're a tangible object, I think it's more so the speed than anything that makes them hell on reaction.

Honestly curious, it's certainly a novel suggestion. Do they have frame data or are they actually just an instant hit?
 

Ffamran

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Speaking of the devil and ZeRo has his video out on Falco and the patch. The first player, Kato is a good Falco player from CA while the second one is Cyro also from CA and the Bowser is Xadrin from TN. Between Kato and Cyro, I'd say Cyro's the better player. Cyro might show up at EVO, but I'm not sure.

Once again, hell no to Falco being able to auto-cancel to his Blaster. Less end lag instead, please since it's freaking stupid when Luigi, Fox, Rosalina, Villager, Mii Gunner, and Sheik can "rapid-fire" their projectiles with or without customs and get away with it easily with probably at most, 49 frames of end lag or little landing lag for Villager and Mii Gunner. Falco? Falco can't act out of Blaster until frame 59. That's basically 1 second since this game runs at 60 frames per second. What. The. Hell. Mario can't act until frame 53, but at least he can cover angles Falco can't. He can jump, throw out a retreating Fireball, and cover his approach. Falco can't do that when his short hop already makes it so the laser goes over most of the cast. The Pits can't act until frame 62 on the ground or 46 in the air, but they can control their arrows and once again, cover angles Falco can't. They also travel much further. Greninja, Samus, Link, Toon Link, Mewtwo, and Lucario get so much out of their chargeable projectiles. At full charge, Greninja can't act until frame 91, but that move kills and catches you while uncharged, frame 51 until he can act. Fully charged, Samus gets to act at frame 61 with a move that kills while uncharged, it's frame 46. For Lucario, fully charged, he acts at frame 62 with also another move that kills and 49 uncharged. Should we also mention how he can use Aura Sphere to combo into stuff like Up Smash or just do damage up close? Mewtwo gets to act at frame 45 with a fully charged Shadow Ball and 49 with an uncharged one. Really? It wrecks shields, kills well, and helps with recovering. Falco gets so little while suffering with a projectile that has end lag similar to charged ones. The things you get from his Blaster is 3% and a chance to gimp while others cover approaches, distract, force approaches, edgeguards, kill, and even hit confirm with projectiles. Zelda's Din's Fire at least kills despite being considered a laughably bad move, but compared to Falco's Blaster, I'd rather take Din's Fire since at least I can chance a kill than deal with a hoping for a gimp. Screw it, give Falco a shotgun. Now he'll have a stupid anti-air and kill move.

What I do agree with ZeRo is that Falco's Blaster does need a change if he wants something to force approaches or approach. This assumes Falco doesn't suddenly get a mobility buff. The most reasonable one would be lower end lag, say, frame 48 instead of frame 59. If this results in the removal of Falco's ability to continually fire or even a damage nerf, so at max range, it only does 2%, sure, whatever. The worst would be auto-canceling since it would mean Falco can limit people's options horribly. The even worst one which wouldn't happen since the developers aren't idiots, would to increase end lag. Then there's stupid changes like faster travel speed, faster rapid-fire, etc. which doesn't fix the problem: safety.

Falco's neutral was Blaster in Melee and Brawl, but in a really broken way. Not like Mega Man and his lemons or Fox's, "Hey, make a move or I'll spam laser until you're at 999%". It was limit people's options so badly that he cheeses the entire game, especially in Brawl where his Blaster was just ridiculous. I would like it if Falco could do this: So, let's say frame 48 is low enough end lag. Falco fire his Blaster, the laser hits the opponent, forces them to shield, or jump. The moment they do that, Falco is pretty much close to finishing his holster animation and can walk or run up, fire again or if he's close enough, just attack, grab, etc. with his opponent. What I don't want is something where Falco can spam lasers, lock you down, and limit your options in an annoying way like how Sheik can sort of do with her 1 single, 1% Needle or the "fear" Luigi creates with his Fireballs where he can distract you and grab you or something. What would be reasonable is a projectile people can react to and isn't overwhelming, but also a projectile that Falco can use reliably. So, something like Ryu's Hadouken.

The rest of Falco's ground game is good, but there are 4 moves I'd like changed which also goes in line with ZeRo's thoughts on Ike's buffs. The 4 moves are jab, Ftilt, Dash Attack, and grab. Jab? Why jab? Jab canceling. Not to the extent of Fox's, but something like in Brawl where Falco could jab 1 or jab 2 and Dtilt, grab, etc. He can do that, but it's slow and dangerous since other characters can grab between or even during his jab at times if he doesn't go full on rapid jab. It would give him more options to an already good move. Asking for lower end lag on his jab 1 and jab 2 if people don't understand.

For Ftilt, it's because of 2 things: end lag and knockback. Falco's Ftilt does a constant 9%, but it has no base knockback and only knockback growth (100) while having 28 frames of end lag. Oh, and it slightly has more range than Fox's. Fox's Ftilt does 8% angled up, 6% normal, and 7%, but it has 10 BKB, 110 KBG, and 24 frames of end lag, but slightly less range. Fox also runs much faster than Falco and he can do those weird pivot Ftilt to Utilt or whatever. Less end lag would be nice, like 25 instead of 28 or just some BKB like 10 since without it, at low percents, Ftilt is punishable since it does little knockback and the end lag is enough where someone could just rush in during the end lag and grab or whatever. Dtilt is a better spacing tool since there is BKB, but it can only hit on the ground while Ftilt can be angled and naturally hits anyone trying to short hop or say, Link doing a Dash Attack. Not a major issue, but something to make his footsies safer.

Dash Attack isn't really for spacing, but punishing which Falco could do well since it came out at frame 4 in Melee and Brawl. In Smash 4, frame 8 on a slow character. Fox is fast and can hilariously spam his frame 4 Dash Attack. Meta Knight has speed to make his frame 7 Dash Attack not seem slow. Falco being slow makes his Dash Attack seem really telegraphed. In a way, it's sort of like Ike's pre-patch Dash Attack that was slow and not that powerful. Now, Ike's Dash Attack kills and it's faster. Falco at least can setup combos from his Dash Attack, but frame 8 on a slow character feels like Falco should at least have more power to his Dash Attack. If it was such a problem, it should have been frame 6 instead, but it was never a problem in Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4. It wasn't a frame 4 Dash Attack that killed at 100%, but whatever, let Fox spam his Dash Attack with his speed. Already went over grab, so there's that.

Air game-wise, yes, he's more cohesive, but that's just it. His aerials are safer, faster, and more reliable. He didn't suddenly gain a kill move or something stupid. That's pretty much it and it's pretty much fine. If Fair was frame 8? Cool, whatever. If Dair was frame 12 instead of frame 16? Sure, whatever. His air game is good, but he does lack mobility to abuse it. At the same time, his air game isn't overwhelming or underwhelming, especially now. Nothing much to say here.

With Falco Phantasm, it was always faster than Fox Illusion. Pre-patch, it was frame 18 and now it's frame 19. Why? I don't know. For Fox Illusion, it's frame 21, but it's so much safer than Falco Phantasm because of the complete hitbox. Not going to parrot more of this, but just correcting ZeRo with Falco Phantasm being slower than Fox Illusion.

As for Ike, Ike's jab, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Fair, Quickdraw are all faster. He also has lower landing lag on Nair, Uair, and Dair with lower end lag on Dash Attack and Ftilt. Hitboxes are also changed. Here's the thing, he doesn't function differently. He's just stronger since Dash Attack kills now, Fair's top hitbox allows Ike to mixup his combos, and he can jab repeat at times to rack up damage. Ike was already a strong character with some hitbox issues, but now he's just stronger. Contrast this to Falco whose air game changed functionally, but overall just safer instead of stronger. Falco's air game is functionally stronger, but Ike's is just purely stronger when it was functionally strong. Spacing-wise, it's also stronger in a sense of it being safer with Ftilt's faster startup and jab's better connection and faster repeat. As it stands, Ike's a strong character who at least functions well compared to Falco who functions well, but (still) has issues all over the place with hitboxes, mobility, end lag, and game plan. Falco's game plan is do damage when he's in, but how does he get in, how does he space well without a disjoint or enough range since his aerials don't exactly have good range, and how does he deal with being in a disadvantage state when his recovery isn't even safe?
 
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A_Kae

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Would that really work? I mean, the needles are there, they're a tangible object, I think it's more so the speed than anything that makes them hell on reaction.

Honestly curious, it's certainly a novel suggestion. Do they have frame data or are they actually just an instant hit?
Definitely not an instant hit. They take 5 frames to go max distance.

BEGIN sheik_needle
**********
Needles
Frame 1- 3: 1.9% 0b/180g (KO@ 423%) 60° 0.8-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 4- 5: 1.2% 0b/180g (KO@ 423%) 60° 0.8-Hitlag Pierce
Max Damage: 1.9%

From the 1.0.4 data dump.
 

Macchiato

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Yeah I was just joking. But anyways... I think WFT's jab is extremely good against dashers. I mean it is like Ganondorf's F-tilt. I think she does well against Faptain. But then again... I have no idea how she should be played.
She is a very open character. She can be offensive and aggro, defensive, or super campy. I find the best way to play her is a Baiting Character/Zoner. She has the tools to be a Zoner and with her great jump and deep breathing momentum cancels. She can Zone with her HLLC Header which takes out all landing lag of header.
Not really, she struggle more against Alph or Pikachu, and swordies give her a hard(er?) time too.
Even Pikachu is not too hard, but it's frustrating like nothing else.
She doesn't struggle with Alph, Nair very easily takes out pikmin in one shot and she can easily edgeguard and Zone him out. No, I find myself to struggle with Zelda (Yes the one in a dress), Mario, and Kirby.
 
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Baskerville

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Would that really work? I mean, the needles are there, they're a tangible object, I think it's more so the speed than anything that makes them hell on reaction.

Honestly curious, it's certainly a novel suggestion. Do they have frame data or are they actually just an instant hit?
Well, A_Kae already beat me to it.
But the reason why I suggested it is because honestly, simply giving Needles more startup/recovery probably won't mean much at the end of the day if she is still able to keep characters out with a move you can barely see.
 

A2ZOMG

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You can Nair out of Falcon's combo as Falco's Nair either beats or trades with Falcon's combo extenders. I think this MU is either even or only slightly in Falcon's favor because of this.
The trade vs Falcon's U-air is extremely unfavorable, as Falco's physics still leave him in a position where he's vulnerable to more followups even in the event he trades, and his N-air probably will only do like 2% in the process while he takes 11%. If you want to bother trading with Falcon's combo extenders, you're better off playing Ganondorf, frankly.

The matchup is winnable mostly because Falco has an easy time edgeguarding Falcon, but Falcon also puts a lot of pressure on Falco's recovery as well and largely ignores Falco's better footsies tools due to his mobility giving him insane whiff punishes. I would argue conservatively it's 6/4 Falcon's favor simply because Falcon generally gets more reward and forces Falco to guess too much.

Vs Sheik in contrast I would argue is possibly even for Falco. She doesn't have nearly the same whiff punish reward Falcon does, as her F-air strings only last so long, and don't leave Falco in nearly as vulnerable of a position afterwards, so past a relatively short juggle range she's more forced to play neutral with Falco longer, where he excels a lot. In the meantime Falco still gets excellent reward out of grab, and when edgeguarding against Sheik, and lasers and reflector give him unique options against Sheik Needles, making him much less vulnerable to being camped compared to most characters.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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Falco lasers are probably hilariously bad because of 2v2 with no Team Attack being the Doubles standard in For Glory Omega stages, where they're pretty obnoxious. :/
 
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A2ZOMG

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Falco lasers are probably hilariously bad because of 2v2 with no Team Attack being the Doubles standard in For Glory Omega stages, where they're pretty obnoxious. :/
Lasers aren't bad. They're just situational, as they probably should be compared to being broken. They're among the faster startup + travel speed projectiles in the game making them even landable at long range. A lot of situations where they can punish or be used in followups, just can't throw them out carelessly.
 

TheReflexWonder

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The range at which lasers aren't reactable is the range where they're punishable on hit, and because the full animation is 59 frames, you're usually giving up loads of stage control or edgeguarding potential to use them. That's a lot being put at risk for 3%.
 
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