Character Competitive Impressions

[KenMeister]

"Marth should have double Fair again, its not Marth without double Fair"

"Falco needs sh lasers, its not Falco without lasers"

We really don't want these to return.

If you were actually paying attention, he never mentioned wanting sh laser back, as it's super braindead in brawl, just a 10 frame cut on the end lag of laser to contrast with the way other characters use their projectiles to cover their approach.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The range at which lasers aren't reactable is the range where they're punishable on hit, and because the full animation is 59 frames, you're usually giving up loads of stage control or edgeguarding potential to use them. That's a lot being put at risk for 3%.

If your opponent is trying to gain stage control by initiating a dash, they're not exactly going to be in a position to shield a laser on reaction. And it's usually not unsafe to predict a jump and laser it from a distance. Lasers as I said are perfectly landable at long range, and they also work well against most other projectiles due to their speed and fire rate.

And after certain strings offstage, Falco sometimes has nothing else to follow up with due to his low airspeed, so a free laser is definitely worth going for in those kinds of situations.

 

[Ffamran]

Lasers aren't bad. They're just situational, as they probably should be compared to being broken. They're among the faster startup + travel speed projectiles in the game making them even landable at long range. A lot of situations where they can punish or be used in followups, just can't throw them out carelessly.

Blaster fires on frame 11, the same as Fox's Blaster, Sheik's fully charged Needles, Robin's Thunder, Elthunder, and Arcthunder, and just 2 frames faster than Ryu's Hadouken. Sheik's partially charged and uncharged Needles come out at frame 5 with 48 frames of end lag; fully charged, there's 54 frames of end lag. Yeah... Sheik... We need to talk.

So, it fires fast compared to Lucas's PK Fire (frame 21), Pikachu's Thunder Jolt (frame 19), (Dr.) Mario and Luigi's Fireball (frame 17), and the Pits (frame 20), but the end lag is what kills it. Luigi gets to act at frame 41, Lucas gets to act at frame 53, and funny enough, Ryu and Pikachu get to act at frame 58, but their projectiles just work differently. Lucas has good knockback on his PK Fire, Pikachu's TJ travels around like an annoying spring and hits at angles, Ryu's Hadouken can have altered travel speed, has a fairly large hitbox, and Shakunetsu hits multiple times. Falco has a linear, thin projectile that does set knockback in a way where it's not as useful as a single Needle from Sheik who does 1%, has less end lag, and I think has more range while causing some knockback - it's set for single Needles, right?

As of now, it's good for edgeguarding pretty much at max distance against slower characters along with tacking on damage. For distraction and approach purposes, it's not that great.

If you were actually paying attention, he never mentioned wanting sh laser back, as it's super braindead in brawl, just a 10 frame cut on the end lag of laser to contrast with the way other characters use their projectiles to cover their approach.

I think he was mocking ZeRo and not me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If Falco could drift while firing with it in the air, I'd be much more fine with it. I'd feel better about using it on offstage opponents, and you wouldn't feel like you gave up loads of space when you miss (or sometimes when you hit!). It's not like his drift speed is very good to begin with...

 

[DungeonMaster]

I would literally kill for Falco's lasers over Samus' homing missile.
Here's a funny montage by @Squaddle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2_6RaaMdp8
Frame 57 baby. Active frame 20. Gloriously worthless. I use my homing missile as a scrub detector. "You got hit by one of those?!...Seriously?"

 

[Ffamran]

If Falco could drift while firing with it in the air, I'd be much more fine with it. I'd feel better about using it on offstage opponents, and you wouldn't feel like you gave up loads of space when you miss (or sometimes when you hit!). It's not like his drift speed is very good to begin with...

Wolf's Blaster, yo.

Still, a shotgun would be pretty neat for Falco and it would justify the end lag if it killed at 100% pointblank, about 2-4 steps away at 150%, and 250% at max distance. Being able to cover his entire body with a spread like that would be sweet. Anti-air and anti-ground. And it would de-clone him more. Oh well...

The drifting thing... Fox and Falco can't do that, right? I know Wolf can, but when Fox and Falco fire their Blasters, don't they just lock in place or something?

I would literally kill for Falco's lasers over Samus' homing missile.
Here's a funny montage by @Squaddle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2_6RaaMdp8
Frame 57 baby. Active frame 20. Gloriously worthless. I use my homing missile as a scrub detector. "You got hit by one of those?!...Seriously?"

What about Super Missiles, though? Pretty fast and has knockback.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Apparently Zero wants Falco's auto canceling lasers back. And while I'm sure many of us want lasers to be better, nobody really wants to deal with that. But the reason why they don't autocancel is simple: casual players exist. Imagine you just started playing Smash and every third opponent you run into completely walls you out with Falco's lasers and you couldn't do anything about it. It doesn't take much skill to be the Falco but it takes a decent amount to be the guy on the other side. Sure, most of us could deal with it but we aren't the only ones that play the game. Seriously this gets overlooked a lot. I want Smash 4 to be balanced competitively. We all do. But know that most people out there aren't competitive.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The drifting thing... Fox and Falco can't do that, right? I know Wolf can, but when Fox and Falco fire their Blasters, don't they just lock in place or something?

They keep whatever momentum they had when you pressed the button, as if you had stopped holding B. As a result, you slowly decelerate if you were moving beforehand, but otherwise keep moving.

 

[DungeonMaster]

What about Super Missiles, though? Pretty fast and has knockback.

Super missiles are indeed saved by being marginally safer on hit and having combos, including kill combos. Which they have nerfed with successive patches incidentally making them travel faster. There's old footage of the E3 super missile, which was godly. (I'm making a compilation of what Samus looked like before the pre-release nerfs from available footage). They can still be eaten by many aerials and ground attacks, Falco's laser can't (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What if the lasers didn't AC, but just had less lag in general? Let him act at say, Frame 45 to pick a random number? That, or keep the lag that it has but bump the damage (and hitstun because increased damage) up to 5%? Not like they can be rapid fired, and he's still not going to combo off of them with 54 frames of end lag. But the increase in hitlag naturally means they're a bit safer, and tacking on 5% damage at range isn't as worthless as 3%.

 

[Vipermoon]

Lasers don't have to eternally autocancel. They can autocancel at a much later frame like any characters' aerials.

 

[Djent]

I don't want Falco's lasers to be good. In fact, they could easily make him too good since he excels at almost everything else now. However, I would like them to be not-useless. As of now I see no reason not to take Explosive Blaster, as it is equally useless onstage and actually kind of neat for edgeguarding certain characters.

A damage increase on the laser would be a neat "flavor" increase (his throw lasers are already capable of doing 5% ) but I don't think it would do much to increase their usability. Reducing the endlag would be preferable but not by much and not in conjunction with a damage increase. Auto-cancelling lasers were absolutely nuts and I don't know why anyone (especially Zero) would want them back.

 

[Luigi player]

Definitely not an instant hit. They take 5 frames to go max distance.

BEGIN sheik_needle
**********
Needles
Frame 1- 3: 1.9% 0b/180g (KO@ 423%) 60° 0.8-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 4- 5: 1.2% 0b/180g (KO@ 423%) 60° 0.8-Hitlag Pierce
Max Damage: 1.9%

From the 1.0.4 data dump.

Just tested this and it seems like Sheik is throwing fully charged needles on frame 11 (frame 11 the first hitbox of them appears).
So it's 11-15 I guess. For the first needle.

Edit: damn I'm late. I guess I should've reloaded the page before trying this out. Oh well. Also Sheiks bouncing fish has invincibility on frame 3-4. I read somewhere that it's 2-3, but that's wrong.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I don't want Falco's lasers to be good. In fact, they could easily make him too good since he excels at almost everything else now. However, I would like them to be not-useless. As of now I see no reason not to take Explosive Blaster, as it is equally useless onstage and actually kind of neat for edgeguarding certain characters.

A damage increase on the laser would be a neat "flavor" increase (his throw lasers are already capable of doing 5% ) but I don't think it would do much to increase their usability. Reducing the endlag would be preferable but not by much and not in conjunction with a damage increase. Auto-cancelling lasers were absolutely nuts and I don't know why anyone (especially Zero) would want them back.

I can agree with this wholeheartedly. Also on the AC thing on lasers I feel like if they do that then they would have to give AC windows to every other character who lost theirs like Samus, Fox and other characters from Brawl who had one on their projectiles.

 

[Speed Boost]

I'm calling it cheese because its low risk high reward. The move clearly has a bigger hitbox than ZSS Up B and lets him wiggle around VERY freely in the end lag making it hard to punish him as hard as he deserves (imo). And thats just if you look at the moves in a vacuum. When you look at who the moves are attached to, you can clearly see ZSS can't set it up as easily (needs to land committed options first) and Mii Brawler can basically just go for it repeatedly.

Tbh "cheese" is probably too nice a word for safe spammable and overly rewardingly stuff like Diddy 1.04 Uair or Mii Brawler Up B.
Cheese used to describe "all in" types of strategies that make be initially tricky for the average player, but backfire horribly when countered or avoided (like YOLO Dair spiking with falco).

I consider "gimmicks" to be the things that don't have a reliable success rate when understood. Like Ryu's heavy ftilt.

I'm sorry but his Up is far from high reward low risk, because in makes your recovery extremely vulnerable. A simple foot stool, fireball or thunderjolt is all it takes to fall to low to get back. You looking at the move in a vacuum if you don't take into account how the move also hurts him.

He may be able to get grabs more easily than ZSS, but he also doesn't have her stun gun or down smash to get a grounded Up B confirm outside of combo percents. Brawler Up B also doesn't kill at very low percents from the middle of the stage.

My point is, the move may be powerful and even spamable, but it's not comparable to Diddy's prepatch UAir because it doesn't kill off the top. It's also not confirmable past 60-70 percent, other than out of shield.

The character is balanced, just because he has a move that can kill early doesn't make it cheese.

To me cheese is something like Diddy's prepatch UAir. It's unavoidble and overpowered no matter how well prepared you are. Sonic's Spin Dash also comes to mind for a lot of MUs. Also prepatch Piston Punch.

I think the best way to look at it is by comparing Mii Brawler to Little Mac. Mac has a ton of low cooldown powerful moves that he can throw out on the ground to get a kill. In a vaccum those options look unfair when compared to the rest of the cast. That said, Mac has a horrible air game and recovery to balance things.

 

[hypersonicJD]

What do you think guys about vs ? I find this even or Sonic has a sligh advantage.But I haven't battled any really good Pikachus. So maybe I think that for those matches. But honestly how's the match-up?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Let's talk about WiiFit, I feel that she is underrated due to many players not understanding her and people overexaggerating her problem against short characters.

She's underrated cause she weird -combination of ranged and close quarters fighter- yeah. Definitely agree about short characters too.But she's also underrated because she doesn't look strong or flashy, or threatening in the least. Whereas the truth is sun salutation fully charged does 18% and with deep breathing I think its 23. F-tilt is a strong and fast move which hits on both sides of her and kills. Bair kills really early sweetspotted, insanely early with deep breathing. Meaning she has 3 solid "not that hard to land at all" killing attacks. Moreover ever since jab was patched its now really good against all characters, since if you get em grounded you will get a free uair most of the time. Moreover moreover all her attacks deal decent damage in fact. Add to that Fair is underrated and definitely legit move which lets her retreat safely and attack depending on how its used and coupled with uair and hair means she's actually got tools for juggling since those attacks together give good coverage.Finally dsmash has a built in crouch hits both ways and frequently confuses people.I think Wii Fit also suffered from the fact that people called TKBreezy's wii fit good, it was never particularly good and it hasn't gotten better in the least, if you look at him you will think she sucks.

 

[outfoxd]

She's underrated cause she weird -combination of ranged and close quarters fighter- yeah. Definitely agree about short characters too.But she's also underrated because she doesn't look strong or flashy, or threatening in the least. Whereas the truth is sun salutation fully charged does 18% and with deep breathing I think its 23. F-tilt is a strong and fast move which hits on both sides of her and kills. Bair kills really early sweetspotted, insanely early with deep breathing. Meaning she has 3 solid "not that hard to land at all" killing attacks. Moreover ever since jab was patched its now really good against all characters, since if you get em grounded you will get a free uair most of the time. Moreover moreover all her attacks deal decent damage in fact. Add to that Fair is underrated and definitely legit move which lets her retreat safely and attack depending on how its used and coupled with uair and hair means she's actually got tools for juggling since those attacks together give good coverage.Finally dsmash has a built in crouch hits both ways and frequently confuses people.I think Wii Fit also suffered from the fact that people called TKBreezy's wii fit good, it was never particularly good and it hasn't gotten better in the least, if you look at him you will think she sucks.

Her header feels like an oddly safe edgeguarding option. My training partner mains her and im never 100%:how her stuff works in a given moment

 

[⑨ball]

Moreover ever since jab was patched its now really good against all characters, since if you get em grounded you will get a free uair most of the time.

Jab wasn't patched. WFT has only received nerfs (which could be argued to be bug fixes) since release.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm not entirely sure why WFT doesn't immediately come off as a mid tier character. When a character has such quick moves and 2 very good projectiles putting her in low tier just... doesn't make sense. Deep breathing Bair is scary af, her tilts come out quick, Nair -> Nair true combos for an easy 26%. She's got some good stuff going for her. I don't have the knowledge to say if she's viable but I can at least say she can only go up considering how low people put her in the first place.

 

[Nu~]

Jumbo hoops are stupid. One of the best ledge gaurding tools and neutral options. You can literally drag your opponent from center stage to offstage in the click of a button. Gg little Mac.

 

[RonNewcomb]

laser is beaten by hyrule shield, gyro can be picken up/beaten by hyrule shield, Zair beats every metal fist we throw at you guys, we're worst of the worst when it comes to being comboed. I mean, just hit us and you'll be fine.
and and if a rob is above you at all, he better be fast falling Nair asap. if not, run under him and Utilt/ Uair/Upsmash and keep doing it until he dies. he'll lose the stock soon.

Hylian Shield never came into play. The ROB wouldn't fish for hits with the laser, he just waits until I tried to zone then punish on reaction. Gyro travels in an arc so it's easy to shield-poke the Hylian Shield above or below it; I use the bubble shield just to be safe. (Same for Pacman's bouncing fruits.)

More disturbingly, I'm pretty sure he beat my Uair once or twice with his Dair. Maybe I mis-timed it and got too close but I dunno. Can a Dair done early enough out-space Link's Uair? ROB's Dair rises a bit at the end of the move, and I think the jetfire's hitbox lingers just a tad.

I didn't get to spend much time beneath ROB; possibly my opponent knew to avoid it. It was mostly a horizontal game, and mostly a ground game. ROB's fast, compared to Link, and that crappy reflector that also vacuums on hit is surprisingly annoying. Plus, any throw combo Link can do, ROB can do better, and his isn't gated by a tether.

I'm starting to play as ROB to learn more. Fun little character, being on the giving end of the gyro shenanigans.

 

[Ffamran]

They keep whatever momentum they had when you pressed the button, as if you had stopped holding B. As a result, you slowly decelerate if you were moving beforehand, but otherwise keep moving.

Hmm... Must be a Wolf thing since in Brawl and PM, Wolf can drift out easily with his Blaster. High air speed and maybe the move itself since it's one press one shot thing like Luigi and Mario who can also drift out with their Fireballs, but Luigi's air speed is bad compared to Wolf and Mario. I'm going to assume that since Fox and Falco can fire continually, it locks them into a fire continually mode, so they'll keep momentum and just stop if they continue to fire on the ground.

Her header feels like an oddly safe edgeguarding option. My training partner mains her and im never 100%:how her stuff works in a given moment

Let's see, the ball can cover angles, bounces around like Gordos, but is a smaller projectile that moves faster and more unpredictable, Header can be faked if Wii Fit Trainer choose not to hit the ball, and it can spike... Speaking of which, doesn't WFT have like 3-4 spikes? Dair and Header come to mind, but I don't remember the others. Is it the leg hit of Fair?

 

[⑨ball]

Is it the leg hit of Fair?

It is.

In 1.04 this move was too good.

 

[Ffamran]

It is.

In 1.04 this move was too good.

Why do I remember useless facts... Did you know the plastic tips on your shoe laces are called "aglets"? Their true purpose is sinister... >_>

Anyway, why does WFT even have 3 (or more) spikes? Sure, it's cool, but some of them are in places that just seem difficult to hit with not to mention that her Dair is frame 20... Why? Thinkaman said it was even weak for a spike. Then there's the fact a lot of her moves have partial invincibility. I know jab and Up Smash make parts of her invincible... What is she? A female Bowser? There ain't no shells there, but man, if her muscles are that toned where laser swords are blocked.

 

[Djent]

So we just saw some impressive play from iiGGY in Shockwave doubles GFs. Though he and Aerolink ultimately lost the set, they managed a 4-stock victory game 2. Palu + D3 is a riff on the classic "speedy DPS + kill-power/wall" formula that seems so universally applicable (well, until the DPS dies that is ). What's even more remarkable is that it proved more effective than the Rosa variant they ran game 1. D3 is a fat **** who just refuses to die, and when Palu snags early kills, the opposing team can easily find itself against a wall-of-pain that only gets more dangerous with rage. This really made a big difference even though Rosa's walling capacity is better. It was impressive synergy overall, and to me it suggests that D3 might actually have a relevant niche in doubles. The only thing I see that could really hold him back are bucket strategies; D3's tanking holds up no better than his real penguin counterparts do in the face of an oil spill.

 

[Zelder]

Why do I remember useless facts... Did you know the plastic tips on your shoe laces are called "aglets"? Their true purpose is sinister... >_>

I too, enjoy Phineas & Ferb.

 

[Ffamran]

I too, enjoy Phineas & Ferb.

I was referencing The Question from the Justice League Unlimited show... *awkward silence ensues*

So, how about that Mario? ... Actually curious about Mario's Dair since people have been using it as an approach because of its active hitbox. For characters with disjoints, they probably don't care, but against say, Wii Fit Trainer or Bowser, I wonder how they would deal with it. Yes, yes, punish the landing lag, but not a lot of Mario players use Dair to approach, so it might be a new thing to figure out for them. Speaking of active hitboxes, been seeing a lot of Fox players use Dair now. Maybe a Kirby, Wario, and Peach trick Mario and Fox players have picked up? Then again, Samus players have been doing it for a while with their Uair. What about Olimar's Nair then... Same with Sonic's Fair. Lingering, active hitboxes are annoying and punish air dodges in an "easy" way. Not the same as waiting for an air dodge and spiking or punishing heavily, though.

 

[Nabbitnator]

It's absurd that Rosaluma even got past any amount of quality control / balance checks. She's floaty so avoids combos. Massive disjoints so wins trades. Way, way too much kill power for a lightweight.
That's not even a low-blast zone stage and she has barely any rage.
I absolutely would not shed a tear to see Shiek and Rosa hit with a nerf bat. Profoundly bad design. I'm amazed they missed the nerf bat this past round of balancing.

I think she should wear the opponent down with her design and then have luma kill. Not just run around with that power but hey. They'd probably have to make her faster if she lost that power.

 

[Sucumbio]

Most wft strategies I see involve camping off stage. It's legit annoying though not as bad as villager

 

[Thinkaman]

Edit: but seriously I think WFT could work well against dashers due to her/his superior range.

WFT's famous superior range? Like Mewtwo's trademark high weight, Ganon's blitzkrieg speed, and Sheik's signature KO power?

But seriously, I think WFT is a joke without customs, bottom 3 or so. It's basically the same boat as Palutena. All that's left is this super campy mess that is as unrewarding to play as frustrating to play against.

I agree that height problems are the least of her concerns, and overblown. Instead we can talk about her dismal approach, emabrassing OoS options, and Zelda-esque incapability of dealing with pressure or asserting it herself.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Falco is a character I really wanted to use when I got the game back in the 3DS version but the many problems he had made me stray from him. I already mained Greninja on day 1 so I was just looking for a secondary back then.

I kinda want to pick him up again but now that Lucas is here I don't think I need another secondary.

There have been 7 regionals and 1 major so far this patch. They were won by:

x2
x2

/ (Major)
/

And last but certainly not least


At: http://smashboards.com/rankings/couchwarriors-june-2015-wii-u-singles.6996/event

That Falco one not that big of a regional. Minnesota is having a summer seasonal that's going to have 120+, but will be considered a "very large local" most likely. Still, props to falco

the most stacked european tournament in germany this format was won by solo Fox (with Sheik/Diddy and Sheik being second and third)
An big Netherlands Tournament was won by Ness / Mario but Netherlands are free

Hello?
Mr R wasn't in attendance.

 

[Firefoxx]

That Falco one not that big of a regional. Minnesota is having a summer seasonal that's going to have 120+, but will be considered a "very large local" most likely. Still, props to falco

106 people isn't that big?

Though I will agree that the designations of what is or isn't a regional seem super arbitrary at times.

 

[Project Quarantine]

106 people isn't that big?

Though I will agree that the designations of what is or isn't a regional seem super arbitrary at times.

My bad I thought it was 97 (tired)

But still, who did falco beat to win? I can't imagine a good sheik, falcon, sonic, "fill in the blank" would let a falco through. His approach is one of the worst

 

[RonNewcomb]

(Can we please stop trying to nerf Sheik for having a great projectile with great frame data at the same time as trying to add a great projectile to Falco's great frame data?)

I've long felt WiiFit is a ZSS-for-professionals. Tiny hitboxes don't matter as much when you're precise in your inputs, and the projectile + normal grab are better than ZSS's. John Numbers shows WiiFit has combos just as well as ZSS, if harder to pull off, and Bair is dangerous on both. So the weakness they give WiiFit (besides the tiny hitboxes) is the crappy down-tilts / Dsmash so ******* are her kryptonite. Swords aren't really a problem with that speed and that chargeable Sun Salutation.

Edit to add: and still one of the best airdodges in the game, for approaching?

 

[Shaya]

Australia is an interesting place.

I'm certain Falco can win in a region where the best competition are Diddy, Mac (someone falco out CQCs), villagers and whatnot frolicking.
Sheik is harder.
Luigi is harder-er.
Rosalina I will be amazed to see pulled off [I could be wrong about this one though, easier Luma killing and nair black hole are pretty okay]

None of these characters really exist in Aussieland. I'm probably the best Sheik by virtue of being the only Sheik. No Luigis in their region but we have a strong one, and we need Rosalinas :<

 

[Dogivet]

Shaya, if you want more top tiers, you can have them...

up there...

down here I'm sure everyone is very happy with the amount of character diversity there is.

 

[Shaya]

Who said I didn't like character diversity?
Just having most of the high/top tiers covered by strong players in a scene is pretty helpful, imo. Can't be upset that Fox did a rambo at a major if there are no Foxes locally.
Game is balanced enough where it can support it, but people shouldn't be guilt tripped away from some of the top tiers (not sure if this is the case, but I can imagine).

Not saying my bff Attila didn't deserve his win, just that some of Falco's poorer match ups aren't present in Victoria.
Although I think it's fair to say he probably goes 40:60 at worse against majority of the cast, not really unwinnable for the try hards :3

Hopefully weather gets warmer and numbers are still good because I think I want to start frequently going South again.

Edit: Attila also didn't seem to have much of a bracket either, if "DQ'D" has anything to say about it. He played the 5th placing Mario/Luigi then his brother (loads of match up experience, tends to win head to heads) twice.

 

[Ffamran]

My bad I thought it was 97 (tired)

But still, who did falco beat to win? I can't imagine a good sheik, falcon, sonic, "fill in the blank" would let a falco through. His approach is one of the worst

Ask @Attila_. The link, http://smashboards.com/rankings/couchwarriors-june-2015-wii-u-singles.6996/event, to the results had some character icons as well.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I was referencing The Question from the Justice League Unlimited show... *awkward silence ensues*

So, how about that Mario? ... Actually curious about Mario's Dair since people have been using it as an approach because of its active hitbox. For characters with disjoints, they probably don't care, but against say, Wii Fit Trainer or Bowser, I wonder how they would deal with it. Yes, yes, punish the landing lag, but not a lot of Mario players use Dair to approach, so it might be a new thing to figure out for them. Speaking of active hitboxes, been seeing a lot of Fox players use Dair now. Maybe a Kirby, Wario, and Peach trick Mario and Fox players have picked up? Then again, Samus players have been doing it for a while with their Uair. What about Olimar's Nair then... Same with Sonic's Fair. Lingering, active hitboxes are annoying and punish air dodges in an "easy" way. Not the same as waiting for an air dodge and spiking or punishing heavily, though.

Fox's Dair sets up to his Usmash. It's also really quick. Kirby's sets up to his entire moveset but is slow to start up and has a small hitbox not making it a terribly effective approach tool. Wario's is unique in that it KOs and has endlag, so it's not really something to approach with. Bottom like is that these moves, while they share the attribute of active hitboxes, are very different and not really used in the same way. There are more effective ways to punish airdodges in most cases. Sure with those moves it can be easier to punish airdodges but there are often better options if you get the read