Character Competitive Impressions

[Dogivet]

I was kinda joking (invention for toned text when), but I agree with what you've said.

There are top tiers present in Vic, and I do see them, but I guess their presence isn't as promising as the top players of the state, whether it's a lack of time/effort or unfamiliarity the game with other players, who knows.
As you said, it wouldn't be as if Attila doesn't deserve to win, he plays extremely well across several characters.

As for people feeling guilty if they don't want to play a 'good' character they like, that's something that they will have to get over themselves over time or feel more adjusted to the scene. Not sure if I can think of anyone of such that but I wouldn't put it past me.

(I can't remember who was DQ'd)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Apparently Zero wants Falco's auto canceling lasers back. And while I'm sure many of us want lasers to be better, nobody really wants to deal with that. But the reason why they don't autocancel is simple: casual players exist. Imagine you just started playing Smash and every third opponent you run into completely walls you out with Falco's lasers and you couldn't do anything about it. It doesn't take much skill to be the Falco but it takes a decent amount to be the guy on the other side. Sure, most of us could deal with it but we aren't the only ones that play the game. Seriously this gets overlooked a lot. I want Smash 4 to be balanced competitively. We all do. But know that most people out there aren't competitive.

If nintendo is balancing the game around casuals they're doing it wrong. You really think a casual player notices any difference in the changes they make? You think it's going to deter them from playing whoever?

Falco should have his laser auto cancel. This game needs more zonig characters. I can't really agree with anyone arguing for falco to not get his laser back.

 

[Baskerville]

Falco should have his laser auto cancel. This game needs more zonig characters. I can't really agree with anyone arguing for falco to not get his laser back.

Do you seriously want Falco to invalidate characters all over again?

 

[TriTails]

I think she should wear the opponent down with her design and then have luma kill. Not just run around with that power but hey. They'd probably have to make her faster if she lost that power.

I didn't say we should make Luma KO at 300% with a fully charged F-smash. Like I said, Luma's only ridiculous killing potential is at his jab 3 and U-air.

I mean, do you want to be dragged up by Rosalina's own U-air and dies at like 40% by a Luma's U-air? WITHOUT rage? That's absurd. Too strong for her design.

She can already do pretty much EVERYTHING without Luma. Luma as of now is too strong. Perhaps we need to tone it down, making so it still kills earlier than Rosalina's attacks, but not at low percents where its attacks are pretty much lagless.

What? Luma is out? Rosalina is going to camp you out for about 15 seconds, avoiding attacks with her above average rolls, dashing speed, and spotdodges, and back throws whenever people make a mistake on catching her. Meanwhile, you are stuck in that stupid knockback animation, buying her at least 4 seconds.

My problem is, Rosalina is not getting penalty'd hard enough for losing Luma. Read above paragraph. Had her rolls and spotdodge got nerfed, she'd be more manageable. And if she succeed on protecting Luma, she gets rewarded A TON. A meat shield. A puppet that attacks from a mile away, KOs with it, can be called back and sent out with ease, BREAKS COMBOS, making it hella hard to even get close, extra damage, extra knockback. This feels a bit too overblown when you consider the fact that she can perfectly handle herself when being alone. Sure, tall light floaty... for about 15 seconds while you try to catch her invisible rolls and spotdodges. She gets her Luma back, you go back to start.

I may be biased since Luigi is bad against her. But I DO use her from time to time and... I still think she is a bit too much for some characters. We have two characters in one that has a meat shield, is hard to approach, can attack from a mile away, KOs with ease, racks up damage with ease, breaks bleeping combos, one doesn't get penaly'd hard when losing another, decent mobility with great acc and decc in the air, great traction, huge disjointed attacks, etc.

Weakness? Gimpable recovery, tall light floaty (Let's call this combination TLF)... that's it? This character I feel need to be nerfed, but I just don't know where...

(Can we please stop trying to nerf Sheik for having a great projectile with great frame data at the same time as trying to add a great projectile to Falco's great frame data?)

Not so much as 'great' when we are wanting 'usable'.

 

[Illuminose]

I don't really understand this fear that Falco getting back his lasers or Marth getting back double fair would be some huge invalidating concepts. It's not like these characters are some huge threats...they're probably on the lower end of mid tier, which isn't very good. Considering the myriad of nerfs to Falco and Marth in this game from previous games, it's very unlikely that they'll actually become these invalidating threats. Falco still doesn't have his old dair, his shine, or aerials that really are good for spacing. Marth still gets **** off throws, has a very small spike hitbox on dair, and has less overall speed/fluidity even with his fair buffed. I think these fears of these characters suddenly becoming invalidating are kinda unfounded considering the other traits of the characters in these games.

 

[Pyr]

If nintendo is balancing the game around casuals they're doing it wrong. You really think a casual player notices any difference in the changes they make? You think it's going to deter them from playing whoever?

Falco should have his laser auto cancel. This game needs more zonig characters. I can't really agree with anyone arguing for falco to not get his laser back.

I have a friend in my home town that notices Sonic's changes every single day. Non-competitive players aren't drooling morons, you know. They can feel the changes just like we can.

And they happen to be the majority of the Smash community as a whole.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Do you seriously want Falco to invalidate characters all over again?

A lot of the cast is already invalidated by the top tiers. So why shouldn't we make a weaker character stronger.

I didn't say we should make Luma KO at 300% with a fully charged F-smash. Like I said, Luma's only ridiculous killing potential is at his jab 3 and U-air.

I mean, do you want to be dragged up by Rosalina's own U-air and dies at like 40% by a Luma's U-air? WITHOUT rage? That's absurd. Too strong for her design.

She can already do pretty much EVERYTHING without Luma. Luma as of now is too strong. Perhaps we need to tone it down, making so it still kills earlier than Rosalina's attacks, but not at low percents where its attacks are pretty much lagless.

What? Luma is out? Rosalina is going to camp you out for about 15 seconds, avoiding attacks with her above average rolls, dashing speed, and spotdodges, and back throws whenever people make a mistake on catching her. Meanwhile, you are stuck in that stupid knockback animation, buying her at least 4 seconds.

My problem is, Rosalina is not getting penalty'd hard enough for losing Luma. Read above paragraph. Had her rolls and spotdodge got nerfed, she'd be more manageable. And if she succeed on protecting Luma, she gets rewarded A TON. A meat shield. A puppet that attacks from a mile away, KOs with it, can be called back and sent out with ease, BREAKS COMBOS, making it hella hard to even get close, extra damage, extra knockback. This feels a bit too overblown when you consider the fact that she can perfectly handle herself when being alone. Sure, tall light floaty... for about 15 seconds while you try to catch her invisible rolls and spotdodges. She gets her Luma back, you go back to start.

I may be biased since Luigi is bad against her. But I DO use her from time to time and... I still think she is a bit too much for some characters. We have two characters in one that has a meat shield, is hard to approach, can attack from a mile away, KOs with ease, racks up damage with ease, breaks bleeping combos, one doesn't get penaly'd hard when losing another, decent mobility with great acc and decc in the air, great traction, huge disjointed attacks, etc.

Weakness? Gimpable recovery, tall light floaty (Let's call this combination TLF)... that's it? This character I feel need to be nerfed, but I just don't know where...


Not so much as 'great' when we are wanting 'usable'.

Rosalina is only hard for slow characters to approach. Luma isn't much of a meat shield. Learn a different character or learn rosalina you're grossly over estimating this character. A lot of people are she has plenty of bad MU'S so learn them. There's no reason to nerf her further.

I have a friend in my home town that notices Sonic's changes every single day. Non-competitive players aren't drooling morons, you know. They can feel the changes just like we can.

And they happen to be the majority of the Smash community as a whole.

There's always exceptions. But casual players are extremely ignorant about the game. They may nake up the majority of the community which is all fine and well. But look at the latesr changelog you really thing that stuff matters to them? Diddy's uair getting one mire frame of start they notice that? Stop it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Please everyone stop saying double Fair like it's Marth's version of Falco's SHDL. Double Far in a game where Fair has super high landing lag is useless. Not when Marth would instead be able to do SH Fair > Nair1 or SH Fair > Uair. These two would be combo starters and have acceptable landing lag.

Even with those follow-ups after SH Fair it still will not be some kind of game breaking thing for Marth.

If you guys want SH Fair Fair or Fair > whatever then turn on customs and add some speed equipment to Marth... he'll jump higher. Have fun because I honestly don't care for it when they can instead fix his lag, ACs, and especially hitboxes.

Just had jab 2 miss at literally point blank again. YAY.

 

[TriTails]

Rosalina.

Plenty of bad MUs.

Like I said, I may be biased. But do elaborate.

 

[NairWizard]

Rosalina.

Plenty of bad MUs.

Like I said, I may be biased. But do elaborate.

Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, Pikachu--maybe Yoshi, Wario, Megaman. Others may be bad as well. @ Dabuz

Rosalina has plenty of hard matchups. People just generally don't play the MU correctly at all. She has bad rolls (they don't cover enough distance despite their invisibility), an exploitable recovery, and Luma can die like 30 times per match, yet I rarely see people abuse these traits.

For God's sake, some people are still smash attacking Luma at high level.

 

[Baskerville]

A lot of the cast is already invalidated by the top tiers. So why shouldn't we make a weaker character stronger.

There are other ways to make a character better without making the one move they have absurdly good. It doesn't really address any of the other issues the character has.

 

[TriTails]

Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, Pikachu--maybe Yoshi, Wario, Megaman. Others may be bad as well. @ Dabuz

Rosalina has plenty of hard matchups. People just generally don't play the MU correctly at all. She has bad rolls (they don't cover enough distance despite their invisibility), an exploitable recovery, and Luma can die like 30 times per match, yet I rarely see people abuse these traits.

For God's sake, some people are still smash attacking Luma at high level.

Then I better retract my last two posts.

I'm bad after all.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I don't think 's Lasers autocanceling would be a problem in this game as much as it was in brawl as the lasers have less range and Falco can no longer do 2 lasers in one SH.

 

[Dabuz]

Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, Pikachu--maybe Yoshi, Wario, Megaman. Others may be bad as well. @ Dabuz

Rosalina has plenty of hard matchups. People just generally don't play the MU correctly at all. She has bad rolls (they don't cover enough distance despite their invisibility), an exploitable recovery, and Luma can die like 30 times per match, yet I rarely see people abuse these traits.

For God's sake, some people are still smash attacking Luma at high level.

To put it in perspective, my best placings at tournaments come from having a strong secondary to pull out for bad MUs (Olimar when Diddy was popular in the meta, Sheik near the start of the game), as a solo main she's viable but difficult to use and her handful of bad MUs (nothing worse than 4-6/-2) is why you don't really see Rosas place well outside of me at high profile events.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, Pikachu--maybe Yoshi, Wario, Megaman. Others may be bad as well. @ Dabuz

Rosalina has plenty of hard matchups. People just generally don't play the MU correctly at all. She has bad rolls (they don't cover enough distance despite their invisibility), an exploitable recovery, and Luma can die like 30 times per match, yet I rarely see people abuse these traits.

For God's sake, some people are still smash attacking Luma at high level.

I don't think MM is a bad mu for her and the last time i heard dabuz talk about the yoshi mu he said it was even. I think the Wario MU is even although I haven't been doing to well in that MU. We're going to need to see some high level gameplay of wario vs rosalina to get a better understanding. Sonic is a losing MU I think.

Then there's mu like marth snd falcon which or either even or she's st a disadvantage. I also think she loses to custom villager.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't think 's Lasers autocanceling would be a problem in this game as much as it was in brawl as the lasers have less range and Falco can no longer do 2 lasers in one SH.

That's actually true. I knew it was close but I just double checked and yeah he lands first.

 

[David Viran]

I've long felt WiiFit is a ZSS-for-professionals.

What does this mean? That wiifit is harder to play or is more viable?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There are other ways to make a character better without making the one move they have absurdly good. It doesn't really address any of the other issues the character has.

The only other fix I could see for falco would be an increase in mobility. Otherwise he'd need a complete character overhaul. The thing is there's never going to beca perfect balance and I think that the more strong characters their are the better. If everyone has a bunch of underwhelming sub par options that seems boring to me.

 

[Dabuz]

Yoshi -1, wario even or -1, MM could be bad, Sonic is DEFINITELY +1 her favor, and so is villager. All customs off of course.

 

[Thinkaman]

If we are bringing back Falco laser, we should also bring back DDD's d-throw chaingrabs and infinites. He needs them them to compete, after all.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yoshi -1, wario even or -1, MM could be bad, Sonic is DEFINITELY +1 her favor, and so is villager. All customs off of course.

I only think she loses to Villager with custom on. I'll take your word on the other MU'S from my experience it doesn't seem like they're goid mu's for her anyways. Oh well.

 

[Illuminose]

To put it in perspective, my best placings at tournaments come from having a strong secondary to pull out for bad MUs, as a solo main she's viable but difficult to use and you don't really see Rosas place well outside of me at high profile events.

Part of this is likely because there's like 2-3 other good Rosa players and none of them are as good a player as you are. That's just the bottom line. This has a lot to do with the fact that Rosa is really quirky and a bit difficult to actually learn due to the whole puppet character aspect...which has no real bearing on actual viability, it's just why there really aren't that many Rosas.

Anyways, basically here's why I think Rosa is so good. Outside of a few losing matchups that are mostly to obscure characters that don't see much play and maybe a slight loss to Sheik, Rosa kinda dumps on a lot of characters due to her incredible zoning and safe pressure. Her edgeguarding capabilities are pretty crazy due to how large her hitboxes are and how much sheer kb dair has combined with a very reliable recovery (lacks a hitbox, but she can get back from anywhere) so there's little risk unless your opponent somehow lands on-stage and has time to setup their own edgeguard; this basically never happens.

The ability to move luma around and meat shield she provides in general gives her safe pressure, especially via jab as well as protecting her solidly. While Luma is alive, Rosa's opponent is essentially fighting an uphill battle in neutral because getting stuff in on Rosa without a dead Luma is really difficult. Luma is sort of like a wall that you have to get around and is a constant nagging pain. You can't land stuff on Rosa as easily as other characters and it's much more difficult to get away with extra stuff because Luma will get your for overextending on pretty much anything, even pummeling for your grabs. It's always said that Rosalina struggles with rushdown, which is somewhat true but not exactly that true as it's far from easy to legitimately get in on her. Her dodge and roll frame data are really good, which combined with throws to get opponents away can really limit the ability to actually do anything even if Luma is dead. 15 seconds isn't that long for a character with such solid defensive options to evade pursuing opponents.

This isn't even talking about her offensive tools. She has some ridiculously high kb moves and offensive options overall. Rosaluma's jab is one of the most incredible pressure options in the game. It's so safe. Multi jab has crazy shield pressure and trapping potential by the ledge along with really good damage. Jab 3's kb is actually absurd; it's a legitimate kill move, which is very scary considering the relative ease of landing it. Up air's juggling/frame trap capabilities combined with just how absurdly it can kill are just so good. I'm scared of getting dying if I get hit by an up air and have to escape a juggle at 0% because I know I can get hit by a few more up airs and potentially die at a very early percent if I get hit near the top of the screen. The best part (for Rosalina, that is) is that she can reliably confirm it out of uthrow and potentially get it out of dthrow depending on DI. Rosalina's smashes are also extremely good, being absurdly powerful and also almost lagless, especially dsmash but both of her other smashes follow with this. Really good range and versatility overall with her smashes make them almost like tilts for Rosalina.

What are Rosalina's weaknesses? Luma can be gotten rid of and it's really not too difficult, and she can be exploitable without Luma. Already addressed how she can kinda get around this and limit what opponents get off though. She's tall, floaty, and light...bottom line, she isn't moving around the stage quickly and is dying kinda early. She can struggle with rushdown depending on the character and their tools to deal with Luma. In general though, Rosalina has a ton of powerful tools that pretty much all outweigh her cons. Rosalina's tools in defensive zoning/safe pressure, juggling traps, edgeguarding, sheer kill power, and overall very good matchup spread make her an easy top 5 character and a surefire top 2-3 character imo.

 

[Dabuz]

"She's tall, floaty, and light...bottom line" That's basically it, dying to basically anything at potentially 60-70 and being a huge target with average mobility is a REALLY BIG con though, that's the sole reason she doesn't destroy everyone in the game. Make her faster on the ground or in the air, give her weight, decrease her size, make her fall a little faster, or just make luma spawn a bit earlier and well, you have a character that is at least Sheik tier, but she's kinda not and has bad MUs just because of those cons.

 

[Shaya]

Falco's laser auto cancelling would have much the same impact as zero suit now having a zair.
Falco's faster jumps/etc would probably make it slightly better.

Marth's design screams "can aerial and jump out of short hops, what more do you want?"
You can dancing blade and aerial in a short hop, two "fair-like" moves.
You can aerial into any of his specials and negate 3 frames landing lag plus the 8 odd frames of landing at the end. Using your time properly.
You can aerial and then jump and in that midair have much more control with aerial mobility and fast falling. Air dodge, other aerials, etc. All pretty good.

A lot of other characters I play can't do this. Most of the high/top tiers cannot do this.

If Marth had 1 frame less lag somewhere he'd be able to fair -> up air. It would be nice but not necessary.
Give him an auto cancel buff and he'd be getting a lot more than being able to double aerial. Double aerial was something not even considered good in Brawl. It was extensively telegraphed and opponents had close to 30 frames of freedom to destroy you for it. It's only something that excels at lower levels and can catch someone off guard from time to time but can be hard punished worse.

--

For a little bit of whatever. I've been Marth/Falco playing for a long time (almost solely my entire post-64 history) and they have similarities and contrasts that I like and enjoy the most while playing Smash. When both were unviable, ZSS became the answer as she shared the strengths/intricacies in both in too many ways.
I like single lasers in Brawl just as much as double lasers with Falco. The smart way to use lasers at high level was double laser into single lasers. I treat ZSS zair as the short hop single laser he now misses.

 

[TriTails]

If we are bringing back Falco laser, we should also bring back DDD's d-throw chaingrabs and infinites. He needs them them to compete, after all.

Chaingrabs and infinites are unhealthy.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Part of this is likely because there's like 2-3 other good Rosa players and none of them are as good a player as you are. That's just the bottom line. This has a lot to do with the fact that Rosa is really quirky and a bit difficult to actually learn due to the whole puppet character aspect...which has no real bearing on actual viability, it's just why there really aren't that many Rosas.

Anyways, basically here's why I think Rosa is so good. Outside of a few losing matchups that are mostly to obscure characters that don't see much play and maybe a slight loss to Sheik, Rosa kinda dumps on a lot of characters due to her incredible zoning and safe pressure. Her edgeguarding capabilities are pretty crazy due to how large her hitboxes are and how much sheer kb dair has combined with a very reliable recovery (lacks a hitbox, but she can get back from anywhere) so there's little risk unless your opponent somehow lands on-stage and has time to setup their own edgeguard; this basically never happens.

The ability to move luma around and meat shield she provides in general gives her safe pressure, especially via jab as well as protecting her solidly. While Luma is alive, Rosa's opponent is essentially fighting an uphill battle in neutral because getting stuff in on Rosa without a dead Luma is really difficult. Luma is sort of like a wall that you have to get around and is a constant nagging pain. You can't land stuff on Rosa as easily as other characters and it's much more difficult to get away with extra stuff because Luma will get your for overextending on pretty much anything, even pummeling for your grabs. It's always said that Rosalina struggles with rushdown, which is somewhat true but not exactly that true as it's far from easy to legitimately get in on her. Her dodge and roll frame data are really good, which combined with throws to get opponents away can really limit the ability to actually do anything even if Luma is dead. 15 seconds isn't that long for a character with such solid defensive options to evade pursuing opponents.

This isn't even talking about her offensive tools. She has some ridiculously high kb moves and offensive options overall. Rosaluma's jab is one of the most incredible pressure options in the game. It's so safe. Multi jab has crazy shield pressure and trapping potential by the ledge along with really good damage. Jab 3's kb is actually absurd; it's a legitimate kill move, which is very scary considering the relative ease of landing it. Up air's juggling/frame trap capabilities combined with just how absurdly it can kill are just so good. I'm scared of getting dying if I get hit by an up air and have to escape a juggle at 0% because I know I can get hit by a few more up airs and potentially die at a very early percent if I get hit near the top of the screen. The best part (for Rosalina, that is) is that she can reliably confirm it out of uthrow and potentially get it out of dthrow depending on DI. Rosalina's smashes are also extremely good, being absurdly powerful and also almost lagless, especially dsmash but both of her other smashes follow with this. Really good range and versatility overall with her smashes make them almost like tilts for Rosalina.

What are Rosalina's weaknesses? Luma can be gotten rid of and it's really not too difficult, and she can be exploitable without Luma. Already addressed how she can kinda get around this and limit what opponents get off though. She's tall, floaty, and light...bottom line, she isn't moving around the stage quickly and is dying kinda early. She can struggle with rushdown depending on the character and their tools to deal with Luma. In general though, Rosalina has a ton of powerful tools that pretty much all outweigh her cons. Rosalina's tools in defensive zoning/safe pressure, juggling traps, edgeguarding, sheer kill power, and overall very good matchup spread make her an easy top 5 character and a surefire top 2-3 character imo.

Rosalina doesn't slightly lose to sheik it's Rosalina's worst MU. You're overrating Rosalina's strengths and understating her weaknesses. Rosalina is a strong character but she's not what you're making her out to be.

Rosalina slso struggles to kill. She doesn't have kill set ups. If you die early vs rosalina it's because she read your air dodge or gimped you. She can put people in bad situations and exploit that but it's not something that's broken. It's on the players tbh.

 

[Pyr]

"She's tall, floaty, and light...bottom line" That's basically it, dying to basically anything at potentially 60-70 and being a huge target with average mobility is a REALLY BIG con though, that's the sole reason she doesn't destroy everyone in the game. Make her faster on the ground or in the air, give her weight, decrease her size, make her fall a little faster, or just make luma spawn a bit earlier and well, you have a character that is at least Sheik tier, but she's kinda not and has bad MUs just because of those cons.

Based on this description, I'd like to give Mewtwo Mew as a Luma-esk tool and see if that changes anything. Because, if you take out Luma and replace She with He, that's Mewtwo.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Based on this description, I'd like to give Mewtwo Mew as a Luma-esk tool and see if that changes anything. Because, if you take out Luma and replace She with He, that's Mewtwo.

More or less but mewtwo has a decent fair. Rosalina moveset would need a complete overhaul.

 

[Thinkaman]

Chaingrabs and infinites are unhealthy.

In case there was any ambiguity, that was 100% my point.

 

[MezzoMe]

Jab3>Uair and DThrow>double Uair are kill setups, but the latter is likely to not kill outside of low-ceiling stages and/or with DI.

 

[Vipermoon]

Falco's laser auto cancelling would have much the same impact as zero suit now having a zair.
Falco's faster jumps/etc would probably make it slightly better.

Marth's design screams "can aerial and jump out of short hops, what more do you want?"
You can dancing blade and aerial in a short hop, two "fair-like" moves.
You can aerial into any of his specials and negate 3 frames landing lag plus the 8 odd frames of landing at the end. Using your time properly.
You can aerial and then jump and in that midair have much more control with aerial mobility and fast falling. Air dodge, other aerials, etc. All pretty good.

A lot of other characters I play can't do this. Most of the high/top tiers cannot do this.

If Marth had 1 frame less lag somewhere he'd be able to fair -> up air. It would be nice but not necessary.
Give him an auto cancel buff and he'd be getting a lot more than being able to double aerial. Double aerial was something not even considered good in Brawl. It was extensively telegraphed and opponents had close to 30 frames of freedom to destroy you for it. It's only something that excels at lower levels and can catch someone off guard from time to time but can be hard punished worse.

--

For a little bit of whatever. I've been Marth/Falco playing for a long time (almost solely my entire post-64 history) and they have similarities and contrasts that I like and enjoy the most while playing Smash. When both were unviable, ZSS became the answer as she shared the strengths/intricacies in both in too many ways.
I like single lasers in Brawl just as much as double lasers with Falco. The smart way to use lasers at high level was double laser into single lasers. I treat ZSS zair as the short hop single laser he now misses.

Just thank you. Thank you for every word in this entire post making sense.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Jab3>Uair and DThrow>double Uair are kill setups, but the latter is likely to not kill outside of low-ceiling stages and/or with DI.

Jab 3 to uair? Dthrow combos get DI'd pretty easily. The character would have to be a fast faller with no di on a low ceiling stage....what a legit kill set up.

Now here's my question is there any reason why you're not banning Halberd and Delfino vs Rosalina. Most of the issues people run into vs Rosalina is just a legitimate lack of knowledge. I don't blame them though. The odds of facing a good Rosa are slim to none and you can just bracket dodge until you run into one.

 

[Luco]

I think Australia's a bit different because top players are more willing to pick well, less top tier characters and still remain top players. You're more likely to see ZSS, Villager, Falco, DK, WFT, Fox, Mac, Diddy or Mario win a tournament than Rosaluma, Luigi, Sonic, Pika or Sheik and I think it's mostly because the top players just... didn't choose those characters. Is this because Australia's not as good and thus they can 'get away with it'? Maybe, but I don't actually think we're that far behind (people seemed happy about the level of performance shown at BAM, for instance). However, size may have something to do with it, regardless of actual skill.

EDIT: Also, I think it should be compulsory for every Ganon main to have red text in order to look like the epic rugged heavy metal thrashers they are. <3

 

[Ffamran]

My fear with Falco having auto-cancel Blaster is if it becomes way too good. The developers aren't idiots who will revert it back to Brawl Blaster. Like in Melee, sure, but there could be other ways to make it work better without auto-canceling. You can always short hop anything, but how well it works just depends. So, Falco can still short hop double laser even in Melee, but he'll land first, fire a laser, and deal with regular end lag. What if that end lag was low enough where it's not overwhelming, but an option beneficial, reliable, and sure, unique to Falco? It wouldn't instant like Brawl or even Melee, but it could be a safe option while still allowing opponents to react, not have too many options limited, etc.

As it stands, if auto-cancel suddenly made it in, Falco would have his Melee Blaster without Melee's physics, engine, or Melee Falco's moveset. So, no laser to shine. The shorter range, lower travel speed, and lower rate of fire already stops it from being overwhelming like in Brawl where Blaster was much, much stronger than in Melee. At the same time, Luigi and Wolf already have projectiles that don't auto-cancel, but the low end lag made them work fine.

Fox being able to auto-cancel his Blaster wouldn't be a problem and it was never a problem since Melee. No hit stun just made it this annoying damage. Now, what if Impact Blaster could auto-cancel? Fox's speed would boost the benefit of having a projectile that stuns. It only has little hit stun, though, and the range is short. So, nothing major there. Fox might be able to confirm a jab, grab, or Up Smash, but it wouldn't wreck anyone. Does he need these? Not really, but having them is just a little bonus to his already strong game.

I'm all for good options, but I'm against options that are broken or way, way too good. It's still all up to the developers. Characters have other flaws some of which are really bad in any mode of the game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

A lot of the cast is already invalidated by the top tiers. So why shouldn't we make a weaker character stronger.




Rosalina is only hard for slow characters to approach. Luma isn't much of a meat shield. Learn a different character or learn rosalina you're grossly over estimating this character. A lot of people are she has plenty of bad MU'S so learn them. There's no reason to nerf her further.



There's always exceptions. But casual players are extremely ignorant about the game. They may nake up the majority of the community which is all fine and well. But look at the latesr changelog you really thing that stuff matters to them? Diddy's uair getting one mire frame of start they notice that? Stop it.

A lot of people are invalidated by top tiers? What exactly do you consider "invalidating"? Because that typically means the matchup is almost impossible. Look at DK in Brawl. Pretty solid character with you usual fatty weaknesses. But what's this? DeDeDe hard counters him into oblivion. Don't get me wrong, Sheik's needles are pretty gross but they are NOTHING compared to the BS DeDeDe had in Brawl. If his standing infinite works on you, you are invalidated. Why? Grab-> stock + amazing grab range singlehandedly wins you the matchup no matter how you spin it. Now tell me. How exactly do the top tiers in Smash 4, a game without chain grabs or broken zoning moves, "invalidate a lot of the cast"?

Also your comment about casual players was the Smash version of Donald Trump's comments about Mexicans.

 

[Thinkaman]

There are way too many armchair balance discussions going on. In a mix of responsibility and narcissism, I take the blame for this, since I start a lot of them and tempt people down a lot of rabbit holes.

In my defense, the difference is that I always try to do so with a point, always on an arc to bring it back to matchups in reality. So my shenanigans are cheeky and fun.

But something like Falco AC lasers isn't a particularly useful what-if, at least in my mind. These shenanigans are just cruel and tragic. Which wouldn't make them shenanigans, at all, really.

Evil shenanigans!

Pictured: Shaya​

On the subject of narcissism, I'd like to talk about myself and my first-world problems for a bit. In my defense, it's my birthday, which mentioning somehow makes this less self-absorbed rather than more. (I dunno man; I don't make the rules.)

So I'm sort of freaking out about EVO, which is in like 8 days. I haven't played Smash 4 in well over a month, and I still don't have a main. This is kind of a big issue.


People romanticize not having a main (or worse, "maining random"), but it's basically a huge hassle that forms this big barrier to investing time in the game and actually, truly mastering matchups. All your XP is divided.

Every time I try to devote myself to one character, I show up to a tourney intent on playing only them, proceed to lose game 1, switch to whoever I think will do best, and win. So then next match I apologize to God for my poor decision and promise to stick with this character, only for the whole thing to repeat. I place well, go home, reflect on the characters I did best with, and inevitably decide somehow that the solution is to also play Charizard.

Next thing you know I'm living in a complex polygamous relationship with a bunch of characters, and the fact that this includes Ganon and Ness makes me really uncomfortable with this analogy.


I'm vaguely worried about showing up and embarrassing myself on zero practice, but I'm more bothered by the idea of wasting the opportunity. (And the cost, in a sense.) I'm definitely still going, way too late to back out now, but it's been a big concern weighing on my mind.

I guess I just need to find someone local to practice with in my spare time next week, and hold them at gunpoint until they play Smash with me. (My understanding is that this is the proper social protocol for Chicago.)

But more relevant to you guys, who here is going to EVO?!?!?! We should totally do some shenanigans.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm going. Repping D3 throughout. Kinda wish I had a true blue secondary to cover my ass, but oh well. I'll work on that later.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Routa]

Gotta love living in the middle of nowhere. I'm just sitting in my cottage made from wood and searching from the internet any online tournaments. So no EVO for me.

 

[TriTails]

Most of the issues people run into vs Rosalina is just a legitimate lack of knowledge.

Okay. I need to ask you. Let's say I'm using... Sheik because she is my second. I faced a Rosa. What do I do against her? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but I kept hearing 'lack of knowledge' all over the place and am curious on finding out what is this 'knowledge'. Because I was under the impression she lose to no one but Wario (Yes. You can spit your screen now. I'm wiping it).

I get it that once Luma is off-stage in tumble state, it's dead. The question is, how? It's not a harmless pillow, it's a tiger in disguise.

On the Falco Blaster topic, I think they can make the lasers go faster and raise its damage to OVER 9000!!! 4% for extra hitstun. That way, it'll be harder to react, but it still deals fairly little damage and Falco can recover more safely since the opponents have to shield/jump/whatever earlier, which will slow them down... or the lasers are faster than I think?

Urgh. I play this character, and I feel that Blaster is underwhelming, very. But I can't think of a reasonable buff without making it broken.

I would go to EVO if I actually live in USA (Or wait. Where's EVO's held?), hell. I'd storm tourneys left and right if there was one in my region but no.

Hell, no one here cares about Smash Bros.

In my defense, it's my birthday

Happy birthday for you then!

 

[Baskerville]

But more relevant to you guys, who here is going to EVO?!?!?! We should totally do some shenanigans.

I'll be there.
. . .
In spirit.