Character Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

A lot of people are invalidated by top tiers? What exactly do you consider "invalidating"? Because that typically means the matchup is almost impossible. Look at DK in Brawl. Pretty solid character with you usual fatty weaknesses. But what's this? DeDeDe hard counters him into oblivion. Don't get me wrong, Sheik's needles are pretty gross but they are NOTHING compared to the BS DeDeDe had in Brawl. If his standing infinite works on you, you are invalidated. Why? Grab-> stock + amazing grab range singlehandedly wins you the matchup no matter how you spin it. Now tell me. How exactly do the top tiers in Smash 4, a game without chain grabs or broken zoning moves, "invalidate a lot of the cast"?

Also your comment about casual players was the Smash version of Donald Trump's comments about Mexicans.

I don't think it has to be an impossible mu but a lot of characters lose pretty hard to Rosalina. If there's a strong Rosalina in your region there's really no reason to main whoever you're maining. You don't really have a CP stage vs her either. I use Rosalina as an example because I don't know anyone mu's as well as hers.

But low tiers generally aren't worth using. I can't thinj of a low tier who has an even MU vs a character considered top tier. Maybe Luigi vs Samus. After that I'm not really sure.

I won't take the bait on the trump stuff.

@ TriTails Fair spacing is key in the mu you have to space this move well it's ridiculously hard for Rosalina to do anything about this move. Pressure with well spaced fair. Rosalina is pretty much at Sheik's disposal when recovering. Vanish punishes the recovery as do any aerial. Because of Rosalina's weight you kill early your fair can kill dthrow uair is a problem as is bouncing fish. Usmash punish will tipper vs standing rosalina. You have the mobility and the frame data on your side.

I suggest you watch master raven vs Xaltis vinnie vs dabuz ECT or ceo. Ed vs Xaltis and dabuz vs false. I think you will see the contrast in approach between the different sheiks and I think vinnie vs dabuz at ECT shows exactly why sheik does bad. I don't think ed and false play the MU as well as master raven and vinnie.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'll be there.
. . .
In spirit.

But I can't money match a ghost!!!

 

[TTTTTsd]

But more relevant to you guys, who here is going to EVO?!?!?! We should totally do some shenanigans.

I am, actually. If you want I wouldn't mind doing friendlies or shenanigans, since that's all I would be doing for Smash 4 at this point (I still need lots of practice!) Just don't be surprised if I use the dumbest customs, like Falcon's terrible Up+B 3. I think they're funny.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Oh, I'm definitely down for some shenanigans. Just let me know on here, or uh...

I dunno, just ask me somewhere.

/off-topicbeforeSHAYArampages

Smooth Criminal

 

[Attila_]

Everyone talking about falco's lazers... Even more than that, if he had reasonable dash speed, he'd be great. Not broken, but great.

His biggest weakness is a complete inability to punish retreating rolls or dashes. If falco's pressure becomes too much, you just have to retreat. He is physically unable to punish you for it.

That would be much more helpful, and much less annoying, than a laser.

My bad I thought it was 97 (tired)

But still, who did falco beat to win? I can't imagine a good sheik, falcon, sonic, "fill in the blank" would let a falco through. His approach is one of the worst

Ask @ Attila_ . The link, http://smashboards.com/rankings/couchwarriors-june-2015-wii-u-singles.6996/event, to the results had some character icons as well.

I beat a falcon (WQF), mario/sheik (WSF), diddy (WF) and doc/marth (GF).

Falco doesn't really approach, he zones really well though. He doesn't have the variety of options that some other characters well, but his dtilt/jab/bair are tools enough at this point in the meta.

I actually think rosalina is his worst mu by a long way, but we don't have a top rosa in this state. Mario is probably the second worst due to crazy air speed and invincible recovery.

Australia is an interesting place.

I'm certain Falco can win in a region where the best competition are Diddy, Mac (someone falco out CQCs), villagers and whatnot frolicking.
Sheik is harder.
Luigi is harder-er.
Rosalina I will be amazed to see pulled off [I could be wrong about this one though, easier Luma killing and nair black hole are pretty okay]

Edit: Attila also didn't seem to have much of a bracket either, if "DQ'D" has anything to say about it. He played the 5th placing Mario/Luigi then his brother (loads of match up experience, tends to win head to heads) twice.

V lost to Ignis' sheik pretty cleanly, not that I'm worried about villager post patch anyway.

I wouldn't use falco against earl though, that mu is pretty disgusting. You can't chip away at that character, and falco's aerial zoning isn't good enough to win. I need more practice at it, but I can't imagine that mu getting any better.

Also, tibor refuses to play diddy kong at home because he doesn't want me to learn the mu. This worked up until now, but I think I busted it, so he might need to practice.

 

[Thinkaman]

I made a small group to coordinate members of our sub-community for international events like EVO and beyond. It is currently private, so as to be a little protective of personal information.

http://smashboards.com/social-forums/smashboards-competitive-discussion-nerds.1835/

 

[DanGR]

I had reservations about Brawl Olimar back when I mained him. You know, the whole "no one understands him/her" thing. "Eventually the community will catch on, and then it'll get harder to win. Is that a disadvantage, looming in the distance?"

While I played that never happened. For years I advanced my play at a faster rate than others learned to counter my character. I could always count on the mismatch in information to give me the edge. Looking back at it all, I was pretty immature as a player.

I didn't take into account the simple fact that I will always have significantly more experience with my character than others who don't main him. And that gap in understanding each others' characters will continue to increase as we play the game- up to a point. Eventually a character's meta development will slow down and opponents of that character will catch up, but that takes a looooong time. Even then, someone with years and years of experience playing Diddy Kong will always use bananas better than someone who hasn't. It's unavoidable. That said, I don't think there's much of a point in theorizing perfect banana use on both sides of every Diddy matchup.

Now, my point in saying all of this.

Yes, Rosalina is complicated, and some people do really silly things against her. But it's not helpful to matchup discussions to say "no one understands her," and leave it at that. On the other side of the coin... Yes, there are some things Rosalina mains will understand on an intuitive level better than anyone else about Luma. But there are several things players can learn in a day that will make their life a whole lot easier.

Here are a few topics to explore:

• Luma priority and movement, while totally unintuitive, acts consistently.
• Is n-air even punishable?! See: How to punish high commitment, lingering hitboxes for details.
• How to kill Luma, and then not run into ftilt/dtilt over and over and over until Luma spawns.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think that learning to play against Rosalina has a bigger specific benefit to be gained than any other opponent.

 

[bc1910]

She can put people in bad situations and exploit that but it's not something that's broken. It's on the players tbh.

This could still be an overpowered or broken trait if she could repeatedly force people into bad situations with little to no risk of punishment. I'm not saying that applies to her though. But I'm saying if you can only kill through trapping or exploiting bad situations it's not a bad thing if you can set them up with ease.
----------
I find it weird how people call this the most balanced Smash yet with most MUs in the 6-4 to 4-6 range, yet everyone who places well has a strong secondary. I mean if Rosalina of all characters is barely viable as a solo main what hope to the rest have? It's not a bad thing, I just would have thought since this game is so balanced that solo main viability would be more common. Part of me thinks it's probably down to the sheer volume of MUs in the game but then, if all of them are in the winnable range, why does volume matter?

 

[TriTails]

Learning how much commitment Sheik does when she uses her needles would be useful too. I watched pro Sheik players juggle people like they have no end lag in their needles. But that's their play, I tap B twice and Sheik stands there for about a second.

It's just pro players do their pro things that make about everything seem unpunishable, when in reality, they aren't. I feel playing other characters a bit, getting a feel of their stats, end lags, startups, etc, will definitely help people a ton. I don't try to punish Ganon's U-smash because I know I'll get Sparta Kick'd in the face. I don't try to punish MK's F-smash because I know I'll just get a sword thrown at my face. Sure, those are quite obvious things, I can go on for more, like when Marth's Shield Breaker fully charges so I don't run to a stupidly strong tippered attack that kills at like 40%. Or how much end lag D3's F-smash has (Believe me. Lol-worthy startup, shocking 'spit on the screen' level of end lag) so I don't get a hammer twirl to my face. Those things have generally helped me.

I cringe everytime I throw out Ganon's U-smash randomly and people try to punish me. Or the fact people still don't know how far Bouncing Fish can go... Yeah, they helped me, a ton. Understanding the moves I mean, not how I can cheese out a hit because people are oblivious.

 

[webbedspace]

I just would have thought since this game is so balanced that solo main viability would be more common.

This idea seems counterintuitive. To maintain a solo main, you must ask "can this character fight the entire roster?" A game where the answer is always "no" could be just as balanced as a game where the answer is always "yes" - each character could be countered by another, but no one set of characters need necessarily dominate.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This could still be an overpowered or broken trait if she could repeatedly force people into bad situations with little to no risk of punishment. I'm not saying that applies to her though. But I'm saying if you can only kill through trapping or exploiting bad situations it's not a bad thing if you can set them up with ease.
----------
I find it weird how people call this the most balanced Smash yet with most MUs in the 6-4 to 4-6 range, yet everyone who places well has a strong secondary. I mean if Rosalina of all characters is barely viable as a solo main what hope to the rest have? It's not a bad thing, I just would have thought since this game is so balanced that solo main viability would be more common. Part of me thinks it's probably down to the sheer volume of MUs in the game but then, if all of them are in the winnable range, why does volume matter?

I suspect people are being conservative with their mu ratings. I don't think people are willing to say my character loses 3-7 or my character wins 7-3. It happens I wouldn't put too much trust into MU ratings unless you trust the people giving the ratings.

I understand what you're saying and when you're unable to set up those situations vs certain characters it's that much more difficult.

 

[Routa]

I prefer the rock, paper and scissors system. It keeps the game more interesting if you ask me. I mean MU knowledge is maybe one of the most important things in Smash games in general. Removing it would make this game more... Boring (not sure if I should use another term, but meh).

 

[A_Kae]

Learning how much commitment Sheik does when she uses her needles would be useful too. I watched pro Sheik players juggle people like they have no end lag in their needles. But that's their play, I tap B twice and Sheik stands there for about a second.

It's just pro players do their pro things that make about everything seem unpunishable, when in reality, they aren't. I feel playing other characters a bit, getting a feel of their stats, end lags, startups, etc, will definitely help people a ton. I don't try to punish Ganon's U-smash because I know I'll get Sparta Kick'd in the face. I don't try to punish MK's F-smash because I know I'll just get a sword thrown at my face. Sure, those are quite obvious things, I can go on for more, like when Marth's Shield Breaker fully charges so I don't run to a stupidly strong tippered attack that kills at like 40%. Or how much end lag D3's F-smash has (Believe me. Lol-worthy startup, shocking 'spit on the screen' level of end lag) so I don't get a hammer twirl to my face. Those things have generally helped me.

I cringe everytime I throw out Ganon's U-smash randomly and people try to punish me. Or the fact people still don't know how far Bouncing Fish can go... Yeah, they helped me, a ton. Understanding the moves I mean, not how I can cheese out a hit because people are oblivious.

Needles are 53 frames total. The first needle is thrown on F11, and I think it's F26 that the final one is thrown. Each needle takes 5 frames to go max distance.

 

[bc1910]

This idea seems counterintuitive. To maintain a solo main, you must ask "can this character fight the entire roster?" A game where the answer is always "no" could be just as balanced as a game where the answer is always "yes" - each character could be countered by another, but no one set of characters need necessarily dominate.

The structure you described is a rock-paper-scissors structure that may not be balanced, even if all characters are countered by another, because matches would be decided at the CSS depending on the severity of the counters.

A perfectly balanced fighting game has either homogenous or heterogenous characters where everyone goes even with everyone else. This is not a realistic goal for a game with heterogenous characters, but Sm4sh is closest to this ideal than any other game in the series so far. Which implies any character could be viable solo and it comes down to player strength.

However Sm4sh and the other games in the series are still probably closer to the first structure you talked about, hence the popularity of counterpicking. I think I've answered my own question actually. Sm4sh still isn't close enough to the ideal of perfect balance for counterpicks to be less important.

 

[PUK]

Learning how much commitment Sheik does when she uses her needles would be useful too. I watched pro Sheik players juggle people like they have no end lag in their needles. But that's their play, I tap B twice and Sheik stands there for about a second.

this
Needles have more end lag that i thought. While partially charged come faster, between the last needle and the last frame there is 35 frame of lag. If the move is fully charged you still have 28 frame of lag. Now the last needle hits at full distance at frame 19 (5 needles) or 31 (6) while dealing the min amount of shieldstun.
Of course nobody can punish fully charged needle storm at full distance, there is only a 22 frame window to cross 2/3 of FD. Idk maybe sonic can.
But at half the distance anyone with decent run speed or fast projectile can punish because the window is bigger and easier.
Now the custom question: piercing needles. It seems they shared the same frames, but i can't be sure. 3 needle max, less than half FD of range. No more shieldstun. The last needle hit on frame 22 (fully charged) so there is a freaking 31 frame window.
And with 2 needles there is 34 frames. Why this custom is used again? I can bet it's unsafe on hit at low percent, and on shield at any. It can't be used to combo or zone so no more needle into BF. I mean it doesn't matter if it eat shield if you end punished against anyone with a decent dash speed (aka everyone in the top part of the tier list bar rosa and luigi).

 

[TriTails]

I mean it doesn't matter if it eat shield if you end punished against anyone with a decent dash speed (aka everyone in the top part of the tier list bar rosa and luigi).

: You don't consider ME in the top part of the tier list!?
: What madness is this.
: I suppose I don't exist.

(Kidding. They can punish Sheik needles with something else)

(BTW. How is Ness doing?)

BTW, Luigi CAN punish needles with SH Fireballs. The timing is about the same as Rosalina, fire it just as you lose altitude. As long as you are in Fireballs' range (A little bit closer to their max range), I'm positive you can hit Sheik (Or at least force her to do something) while she is stuck in the needles end lag.

 

[MezzoMe]

Rosa has avarage dash speed, unless you mean something else with "decent", also I recall it was still possible to combo the Paralizing Needles>Bouncing Fish.
Anyway, it's pretty simple to answer to

Why people use a useless custom?

Because knowledge is power, without knowledge that this custom and the standard Neutral B have these flaws people don't have the power to counter that, and the Sheik has the chance to abuse that hole once spotted, the same happens when people try to shield Volcano Kick or when ESAM switched to Samus at CEO.

 

[Luco]

People don't want to talk about because I always talk about him.

I dunno, he's kinda cruisin'. Being one of the top tiers to not only get no nerfs (since 1.04 I think with the Dthrow damage nerf?) but even receive a buff has been pretty nice overall for him. That said, we can't really decide if Sonic or Rosa is our worst MU. People are beginning to lean back to (surprise surprise) Rosa. Speaking of which, is it true @ Dabuz that you've never lost to a Ness main in tournament?

 

[TriTails]

Rosa has slightly above average dashing speed actually. Faster than Mario.

People don't want to talk about because I always talk about him.

I dunno, he's kinda cruisin'. Being one of the top tiers to not only get no nerfs (since 1.04 I think with the Dthrow damage nerf?) but even receive a buff has been pretty nice overall for him. That said, we can't really decide if Sonic or Rosa is our worst MU. People are beginning to lean back to (surprise surprise) Rosa. Speaking of which, is it true @ Dabuz that you've never lost to a Ness main in tournament?

D-throw damage nerf? Then that would be somekind of a buff too, since damage affects hitstun, and hitstun affect knockback. You don't kill with D-throw now, do you?

And also, consider that D-throw 'shaky screen' tweak a buff. Ness just got more violent with that thing .

 

[A_Kae]

Rosa has slightly above average dashing speed actually. Faster than Mario.

1.632, for a precise number. Ranked 25.

Mario is 1.6, at 27-28th place.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed

 

[GeneralLedge]

It's just pro players do their pro things that make about everything seem unpunishable, when in reality, they aren't. I feel playing other characters a bit, getting a feel of their stats, end lags, startups, etc, will definitely help people a ton. I don't try to punish Ganon's U-smash because I know I'll get Sparta Kick'd in the face. I don't try to punish MK's F-smash because I know I'll just get a sword thrown at my face. Sure, those are quite obvious things, I can go on for more, like when Marth's Shield Breaker fully charges so I don't run to a stupidly strong tippered attack that kills at like 40%. Or how much end lag D3's F-smash has (Believe me. Lol-worthy startup, shocking 'spit on the screen' level of end lag) so I don't get a hammer twirl to my face. Those things have generally helped me.

It's a lot of this that makes me feel like it's better to 'main' the random button than main any exclusive character. At least, for a good while while getting a feel for the game and its strategies.

Knowing a little bit about everything will go farther than knowing a lot about one thing. The dude maining one character to mastery will only win until the dude who knows a little bit about everyone counter-picks a situation where the master gets schooled.

Of course, doing both is how you beat the game.

 

[BSP]

Yes, Rosalina is complicated, and some people do really silly things against her. But it's not helpful to matchup discussions to say "no one understands her," and leave it at that. On the other side of the coin... Yes, there are some things Rosalina mains will understand on an intuitive level better than anyone else about Luma. But there are several things players can learn in a day that will make their life a whole lot easier.

QFT. It took one serious day in the lab and looking around to see what other Pac-Man players had to say about Rosalina that flipped the MU significantly for me.

I get it that once Luma is off-stage in tumble state, it's dead. The question is, how? It's not a harmless pillow, it's a tiger in disguise.

What I did was go into training mode with my characters (Mario and Pac-Man) and tested which moves put Luma into tumble from 0%. From there, figure out what's safest.

For God's sake, some people are still smash attacking Luma at high level.

If you don't have an aerial or tilt that puts Luma into tumble at 0% or low %, what else are you supposed to do? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it can retaliate quickly if you don't launch it from your attack, right?

 

[PUK]

: You don't consider ME in the top part of the tier list!?
: What madness is this.
: I suppose I don't exist.

(Kidding. They can punish Sheik needles with something else)

(BTW. How is Ness doing?)

BTW, Luigi CAN punish needles with SH Fireballs. The timing is about the same as Rosalina, fire it just as you lose altitude. As long as you are in Fireballs' range (A little bit closer to their max range), I'm positive you can hit Sheik (Or at least force her to do something) while she is stuck in the needles end lag.

I would prefer ness to not exist. I guess he can't really punish.
About dash speed i have not a clear idea of who's fast, who's average and who's slow. For what it worth Rosa might be able to punish (she even can walk through i think), mario too and Wario is not supposed to stand on the ground.
The point is that a good part of the cast is able to punish bad spaced needles, and a bigger part can punish penetrating needle. Fully charged needles is close to be reactable at point blank, and at half distance even more, and is unsafe on shield. Yet i often see mid level sheik throwing needles and walk away, while zero never used fully charged against nairo from what i remember, and has even been punish on hit some times.

Edit: needles are like fox laser, it's useful but you need to give the respect they deserve and not more

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If you don't have an aerial or tilt that puts Luma into tumble at 0% or low %, what else are you supposed to do? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it can retaliate quickly if you don't launch it from your attack, right?

Luma seems to take more knockback when it's hurt. Just like everyone else, actually, except its damage is invisible.

I find myself comparing Rosalina to Dedede, of all characters. Dedede has a bunch of powerful, meaty, long range hitboxes, but his buttons are slow in general. So if you give him space, he can be frustrating to get in on, but once you're in, you're in. At least that had been my limited experience fighting Dedede online.

Now Rosalina is of course safer, more flexible, it's harder to break through Luma than Dedede, etc. so it's not a perfect 1:1 comparison. And once she sends Luma out all bets are off. But that's my odd thought of the day.

 

[Dabuz]

People don't want to talk about because I always talk about him.

I dunno, he's kinda cruisin'. Being one of the top tiers to not only get no nerfs (since 1.04 I think with the Dthrow damage nerf?) but even receive a buff has been pretty nice overall for him. That said, we can't really decide if Sonic or Rosa is our worst MU. People are beginning to lean back to (surprise surprise) Rosa. Speaking of which, is it true @ Dabuz that you've never lost to a Ness main in tournament?

Well duh, but that is because every ness main ****s themself the moment they see my Rosalina, in reality the MU isn't bad though, just don't be scared and then die at 30% from dumb stuff.

 

[Smog Frog]

@ Dabuz was dsr in effect at ceo? shaky seemed like he might have been able to take the set if he kept cping to fd since the vs seems not too heavily favoring either party there.

 

[Macedonian]

@ Thinkaman happy bday man I've always enjoyed your postings. About choosing a main I'm curious what your thoughts are (as well as other peoples).

Are you looking for your strongest character? Whose style you enjoy the most? who's the most fun?

 

[FullMoon]

There are way too many armchair balance discussions going on. In a mix of responsibility and narcissism, I take the blame for this, since I start a lot of them and tempt people down a lot of rabbit holes.

In my defense, the difference is that I always try to do so with a point, always on an arc to bring it back to matchups in reality. So my shenanigans are cheeky and fun.

But something like Falco AC lasers isn't a particularly useful what-if, at least in my mind. These shenanigans are just cruel and tragic. Which wouldn't make them shenanigans, at all, really.

Evil shenanigans!

Pictured: Shaya​

On the subject of narcissism, I'd like to talk about myself and my first-world problems for a bit. In my defense, it's my birthday, which mentioning somehow makes this less self-absorbed rather than more. (I dunno man; I don't make the rules.)

So I'm sort of freaking out about EVO, which is in like 8 days. I haven't played Smash 4 in well over a month, and I still don't have a main. This is kind of a big issue.


People romanticize not having a main (or worse, "maining random"), but it's basically a huge hassle that forms this big barrier to investing time in the game and actually, truly mastering matchups. All your XP is divided.

Every time I try to devote myself to one character, I show up to a tourney intent on playing only them, proceed to lose game 1, switch to whoever I think will do best, and win. So then next match I apologize to God for my poor decision and promise to stick with this character, only for the whole thing to repeat. I place well, go home, reflect on the characters I did best with, and inevitably decide somehow that the solution is to also play Charizard.

Next thing you know I'm living in a complex polygamous relationship with a bunch of characters, and the fact that this includes Ganon and Ness makes me really uncomfortable with this analogy.


I'm vaguely worried about showing up and embarrassing myself on zero practice, but I'm more bothered by the idea of wasting the opportunity. (And the cost, in a sense.) I'm definitely still going, way too late to back out now, but it's been a big concern weighing on my mind.

I guess I just need to find someone local to practice with in my spare time next week, and hold them at gunpoint until they play Smash with me. (My understanding is that this is the proper social protocol for Chicago.)

But more relevant to you guys, who here is going to EVO?!?!?! We should totally do some shenanigans.

Everytime you make posts like this I'm reminded of why you're my favorite person in this thread.

My day just started and it's already been made.

Also happy birthday!

 

[Nocally]

What do you think guys about vs ? I find this even or Sonic has a sligh advantage.But I haven't battled any really good Pikachus. So maybe I think that for those matches. But honestly how's the match-up?

Now i'm not one to go into too many details, and I could probably elaborate some more, but the match-up is really close to even. Pikachu has all the tools to compete and counter most of Sonic´s tools, and vice versa. The match-up mostly comes down to the player´s skills and knowledge of the match-up. Both characters has something that annoys the other to some extend. Pika has a projectile, a better combo game (my opinion) and the options to beat sonic´s moves. Sonic on the other hand, actually gives Pikachu some trouble i close combat because of Sonic´s jab, f-tilt, f-smash and hit and run tactics. When it comes to killing, both characters has trouble against each other, but Sonic actually wins out in the long run because his throws KO´s Pikachu reliably if the match draws out to higher percents.

TL;DR: slightly ´s favor (55:45) when comparing the characters side by side.

TL;DR"2: the match-up can easily sway to ´s advantage, but it mostly comes down to the player´s skills.

Disclaimer: I'm not a top Pikachu player, so take everything with a grain of salt.

 

[Luco]

Rosa has slightly above average dashing speed actually. Faster than Mario.


D-throw damage nerf? Then that would be somekind of a buff too, since damage affects hitstun, and hitstun affect knockback. You don't kill with D-throw now, do you?

And also, consider that D-throw 'shaky screen' tweak a buff. Ness just got more violent with that thing .

For some odd reason, the KB was the same. Maybe they compensated its KB value when they nerfed it? But it was just as reliable before, Dthrow used to do 9% and now it does 7%. :o

I would prefer ness to not exist. I guess he can't really punish.

Woah woah woah, let's calm down here. (I mean, Ness is just objectively the greatest character to ever exist alongside Lucas, don't you ever wonder why once you start a Ness main you're always a Ness main? This also applies to Luigi, Marth and Kirby :3)

Well duh, but that is because every ness main ****s themself the moment they see my Rosalina, in reality the MU isn't bad though, just don't be scared and then die at 30% from dumb stuff.

I've felt like this might be the case but I'm actually really happy you think so too. I really look forward to seeing your matches against the top Ness mains in future. :D

 

[GeneralLedge]

It's been nudging the back of my mind, but I wonder if it's fundamentally more important to decide on or determine a strategy that as a player you're comfortable with doing consistently (aka: are good at), far more-so than the character itself that enacts it.

For example, I've been told that I'm exceptional when it comes to zoning, and coincidentally have settled on playing characters that excel at zoning. If I ever want to branch out, I'm likely to do very well with other characters that have potential zoning tools, or even characters that can emulate zoning tools while possibly not wholly intended to be played as such.

As a separate example, take ZeRo. ZeRo is very good at adapting, and that's largely his game plan. Coincidentally, his characters of choice are at the top of the tier list, wherein their position on the tier list is dictated by being played exceptionally well. When it narrows down to it, "adaptability" and "playing exceptionally well" overlap fairly broadly. When you can guess your opponent's next move correctly, you may as well be considered a computer. Capitalizing off this with his character choice is what keeps ZeRo the best player, currently.

So I'm curious not so much how many people are certified with the character they play, but rather if they're certified with the strategies they use, and if the characters they play function adamantly under these strategies.

Naturally, one would settle on a 'main' using this logic ("I'm good at spacing, so I'll play Marth! Oh hey I won a tournament!"), but I wonder if there's a pre-existing discussion on where playstyle itself is analyzed, and how it meets characters. People would be strongly aware of Marth being a strong character in the hands of an expert when it comes to spacing, but can he be utilized the same way when played by a strong zoning player? A strong adapting player? A strong camping player?

And I can only really conclude that people who exclusively main the random button simply haven't figured out what they're good at, or which characters act strongest under these strategies. No relation to @ Thinkaman , but I wonder if this consideration would help players better identify with both their mains, and characters they previously hadn't considered functioning strongly with these strategies.

 

[bc1910]

People don't want to talk about because I always talk about him.

I dunno, he's kinda cruisin'. Being one of the top tiers to not only get no nerfs (since 1.04 I think with the Dthrow damage nerf?) but even receive a buff has been pretty nice overall for him.

I for one am glad about this. I say let him be good. Ness had been pretty **** for 3 games (except in 64 before people realised his range and recovery are SO bad they hold back an otherwise excellent character). I honestly think the devs are trying to make everyone strong, and they have no reason to touch characters like Ness who, despite receiving a few complaints, aren't unhealthily dominant. They have massively improved a lot of long standing veterans too. It's easier to name the members of the Original 12 who AREN'T considered top/high tier than those that are. That's never happened before, and it's awesome. You could even make a strong argument to add Link to the high tier list with his recent buffs, and maybe even DK with customs. Kirby was also really strong at E3 and Samus got that infamous "best character" description, so yeah. I think Ness has nothing to worry about because he's a core character who they obviously want to be good.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

D3 fits my style. I like playing defensively, I value footsies, and I like grabbing people a lot.

He's also a megalomaniacal penguin with kingly robes and a ****ing hammer.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Luco]

I mean I love the persona of kids with psychic powers, I've always wanted to have psychic powers...

*ahem* On a more relevant note, I'm surprised at my enjoyment of rushdown. I also really value footsies, and a punishing game which Ness truly excels at. But to be the one running in surprises me, and it's kinda funny because my co-mains and secondaries are all over the place (Lucas plays a mid-ranged zoner and combo machine, DHD is creative projectile zoning 101 and Bowser Jr is 'setup then hit and run'-ish).

 

[outfoxd]

My choice might be an extension of my brazilian jiu jitsu hobby. They say it's like playing kinetic chess, laying traps, taking advantage of leading your opponent along until you get checkmate with a submission. DHD is kinda like that.

Its weird because in other fighting games i tend toward grapplers or hybrid grapplers.

 

[Sir Tundra]

If we are bringing back Falco laser, we should also bring back DDD's d-throw chaingrabs and infinites. He needs them them to compete, after all.

Let's also bring back Metaknight's brawl tornando and brawl frame data while were at it

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I like characters who can do it all, from postional zoning foosties game, to rushdown pressure punish-heavy games. that is brawl MK, melee fox, ssb64 pikachu, mvc2 sentinel, super turbo dhalsim, usf4 akuma, seth, ken, juri, chun li, and most importantly, karnov's revenge Ray and breaker's revenge Sho.
so i play Roy and Rob.

 

[FullMoon]

I enjoy freedom of movement and range, but in order to get really into it I also need a character with plenty of very rewarding combos, so Greninja was a perfect fit for me since day 1. I also enjoy doing mindgames with people and Greninja's baiting game is so good.

 

[Wintropy]

It's a lot of this that makes me feel like it's better to 'main' the random button than main any exclusive character. At least, for a good while while getting a feel for the game and its strategies.

Knowing a little bit about everything will go farther than knowing a lot about one thing. The dude maining one character to mastery will only win until the dude who knows a little bit about everyone counter-picks a situation where the master gets schooled.

Of course, doing both is how you beat the game.

This is the mantra my brother (widely regarded as the best player in our local scene) follows. He doesn't have one "main", nor does he feel the need to whittle down his options to even a handful of characters. His stated intent is to "main half the roster", or at least feel comfortable with most of the characters on offer. Thus far, he can play about ten characters to a near-expert degree, and he continues to improve with every fight.

It's kinda scary, though considering he's my go-to training partner, also very educational~

It's been nudging the back of my mind, but I wonder if it's fundamentally more important to decide on or determine a strategy that as a player you're comfortable with doing consistently (aka: are good at), far more-so than the character itself that enacts it.

For example, I've been told that I'm exceptional when it comes to zoning, and coincidentally have settled on playing characters that excel at zoning. If I ever want to branch out, I'm likely to do very well with other characters that have potential zoning tools, or even characters that can emulate zoning tools while possibly not wholly intended to be played as such.

As a separate example, take ZeRo. ZeRo is very good at adapting, and that's largely his game plan. Coincidentally, his characters of choice are at the top of the tier list, wherein their position on the tier list is dictated by being played exceptionally well. When it narrows down to it, "adaptability" and "playing exceptionally well" overlap fairly broadly. When you can guess your opponent's next move correctly, you may as well be considered a computer. Capitalizing off this with his character choice is what keeps ZeRo the best player, currently.

So I'm curious not so much how many people are certified with the character they play, but rather if they're certified with the strategies they use, and if the characters they play function adamantly under these strategies.

Naturally, one would settle on a 'main' using this logic ("I'm good at spacing, so I'll play Marth! Oh hey I won a tournament!"), but I wonder if there's a pre-existing discussion on where playstyle itself is analyzed, and how it meets characters. People would be strongly aware of Marth being a strong character in the hands of an expert when it comes to spacing, but can he be utilized the same way when played by a strong zoning player? A strong adapting player? A strong camping player?

And I can only really conclude that people who exclusively main the random button simply haven't figured out what they're good at, or which characters act strongest under these strategies. No relation to @ Thinkaman , but I wonder if this consideration would help players better identify with both their mains, and characters they previously hadn't considered functioning strongly with these strategies.

I choose my characters based on whom I like best as characters. It just so happens that they usually fit my favourite playstyle for that game, whether coincidentally or as the result of a deep-rooted psychological imperative.

In Street Fighter, I favour Shoto characters, though I prefer a bit of diversity from the usual Ryuclone archetype. Sakura is a nice compromise between both extremes.

In Soul Calibur, I like to take advantage of the game's reliable guard system and punish the opponent for flubbing their moves. Thus, Siegfried's strong yet defensive style suits me.

In hyper fighters, I like to be able to move quickly and score quick, concise combos while never standing still within harm's way. To that end, I play Taokaka in BlazBlue and Valentine in Skullgirls.

This is interesting when considering the context of Smash. Prior to getting involved with competitive Smash in this iteration, I had no favoured playstyle, and just chose whichever fighter caught my fancy on the CSS. Having elected Pit and Palutena as my mains in Smash 4, I've discovered that - much like your good self - I love zoners. Conversely, I came to realise I have a strong aversion to rushdown fighters, and thus I avoid playing them wherever possible.

Realising this has definitely helped improve my game significantly, in that it's helped identify the kind of game I want to play. Focusing on the kind of style you're good with helps you hone your skills down a particular path and just feels incredibly refreshing. It's also encouraged me to go back and try out characters I'd previously dismissed as "not my style", like Robin and Bowser Jr Ludwig.

Of course, it's nice to have more than one arrow in your quiver. As you say, adaptability is good, and the more options you have at your disposal, the better off you can expect to be.

Everytime you make posts like this I'm reminded of why you're my favorite person in this thread.

My day just started and it's already been made.

Also happy birthday!

I second this sentiment.

Both of 'em.

I mean I love the persona of kids with psychic powers, I've always wanted to have psychic powers...

*ahem* On a more relevant note, I'm surprised at my enjoyment of rushdown. I also really value footsies, and a punishing game which Ness truly excels at. But to be the one running in surprises me, and it's kinda funny because my co-mains and secondaries are all over the place (Lucas plays a mid-ranged zoner and combo machine, DHD is creative projectile zoning 101 and Bowser Jr is 'setup then hit and run'-ish).

I kinda wish Duck Hunt had a more reliable setup.

They're incredibly fun to play, but I think the wonky KO options and intense learning curve intimidate a lot of newer players.