Character Competitive Impressions

[Mario766]

Roy in Sword of Seals used the same fighting animations as Eliwood, or you could say Eliwood used the same animations as Roy. They were both fencers until Roy got the Sword of Seals where he started swinging the sword around using the base of the sword for his hits.

The reverse grip Roy uses isn't very practical for the size of the Sword of Seals.

Also there's a major factor you lose when you reverse grip. You don't get the extra force from swinging the sword downward unless you're using a very small blade like rogues do in Radiant Dawn.

I don't believe Roy uses a reverse grip for most of his attacks, only some. It reduces the range of the moves due to the action however, it feels like a very strange balance choice to balance how strong Roy's sweet-spot hits are.

 

[A_Kae]

It depends on the weapon I think. With a Dagger, you can really focus in on your one arm to deliver the slashing blow, kinda like a hook in boxing motion. With a full sword, you have to use a larger range of muscles other than your arm because if the size and weight.

Yes, reverse grip with daggers or other small weapons is good, but we're talking about a full size sword.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, reaching out is awkward and dangerous with reverse grip. It's a great way to hurt yourself, if you hit something hard, or someone hits your weapon hard, or just because you're leaving your arm more open. Roy should know better. I know with smaller stuff, reverse grip isn't bad, knives or small swords like you said. But an actual full sword like Roy uses is a super bad idea.

Roy's f-smash I can say for sure can't hit people on the ledge.

The reverse grip thing should have gone to a thief character like Tetra or a ninja like... Sheik. Seriously, what's that tanto even there for? Roy's reverse grip thing, well, sheath on the same side, wasn't even cool or done right since you didn't get the Sword of the Seals until like chapter 23 or something in Binding Blade. Roy's regular attacking animations were just normal. Well, they had to do something to make him less of a clone and not the third Marth clone in Smash 4... Still, couldn't they have done something else? Then again, that's the same thing when you try to reason Chrom being not unique according to the developers or why Samus, Zelda, Ganondorf, and *insert every character's name here* are that way.

What about ? His weapon is really like a dagger, but is his grip? I never really payed attention to irl fighting styles and techniques outside of boxing, but this is pretty interesting

As A_Kae said, Meta Knight's short. It's the same dealio with Toon Link who's also short. Meta Knight's stubby arms don't really matter since he and Kirby can move them around in weird ways compared to humans. What is the problem is that his hitboxes do not match his animations. It's getting better with patches fixing stuff up, but the 3DS's launch had Meta Knight's hitboxes about half the animations'.

You're probably right. Not that Smash is realistic or anything, but I do like to think that reverse grip is the reason for Roy's power and less end lag than Marth while also being the reason for less hitbox duration and range.

The reverse grip is just a way to make Roy look, fight, and function differently. Reverse grip justifies shorter range on some moves, his arcing swings, and well, it makes him look different while fighting. It's a more noticeable animation difference compared to Fox and Falco's Ftilt. Both do roundhouses, but Fox retracts his leg and seems to be more "checking" his opponent while Falco just snaps off a roundhouse and might be kicking more with his foot than his shin like Fox.

If Roy wanted more power (and range), he would be two-handing his sword at all times which would end up with an extremely overpowered character if Roy's frame data, mobility, etc. stayed the same, but did more damage and more knockback. Then again, it's a game where Ike's Bair using just one hand and spinning himself in mid-air does more damage and is faster than his Fair and where the King of Evil jogs during fights.

 

[Spinosaurus]

What about ? His weapon is really like a dagger, but is his grip? I never really payed attention to irl fighting styles and techniques outside of boxing, but this is pretty interesting

None of the characters do it right lol.

Mac has terrible form. Guy swings so wildly.

Anyway, I wanna talk about Diddy a bit. I've picked him up lately and I think this character still has what it takes to compete at the top, despite his rewards being rather mediocre, he's incredibly consistent at it and banana allows him to adapt to the situation and allow creative play. Very well designed character now.

 

[A_Kae]

None of the characters do it right lol.

Mac has terrible form. Guy swings so wildly.

Anyway, I wanna talk about Diddy a bit. I've picked him up lately and I think this character still has what it takes to compete at the top, despite his rewards being rather mediocre, he's incredibly consistent at it and banana allows him to adapt to the situation and allow creative play. Very well designed character now.

Is Mac really that bad? I know almost 0 about boxing, but it doesn't look bad to me.

Diddy got his stupid stuff removed. Probably a bit overnerfed, if you ask me, but he's still got tons of options always, with monkey flip and bananas. He's still a good character, still top 10 IMO.

But then, I don't use Diddy, his playstyle doesn't really interest me much, so I'm not the best person to talk about this.

 

[David Viran]

Funny that everybody is talking about correct form on moves and a little while ago the zss boards had a thread about how her form on moves are.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zero-suit-samus-martial-arts-analysis.402066/

 

[Baby_Sneak]

None of the characters do it right lol.

Mac has terrible form. Guy swings so wildly.

Anyway, I wanna talk about Diddy a bit. I've picked him up lately and I think this character still has what it takes to compete at the top, despite his rewards being rather mediocre, he's incredibly consistent at it and banana allows him to adapt to the situation and allow creative play. Very well designed character now.

Diddy now is in the same ship as sheik since they both struggle to kill (sheik is far far worse though. And diddy doesn't really struggle with banana but his kill options are like average in power). Honestly, bananas are just not catching my eye like they used to. Back in brawl, diddy could occupy the entire stage with banana in front, banana in hand, and peanuts. Now, it's just kinda meh in the whole graspable item game. Us robs can play basketball with our gyro, peach has stitchy, link and toon link bombs make approaching them a nightmare, pacman has a freaking utility belt with bonus fruits, and what are diddys specs? "Oh, throw it twice and it dies. But it can make people trip! :O"

Please ( I know tripping = kill setups and edge guard pressure, but all the characters I listed up top does it better).

 

[Vipermoon]

Was fighting a Pikachu the other day and I kept trying to jab his approaches. My jab missed three times in a row. So I just went on training on found out some stuff on the Marth vs Pikachu MU.

If you're too close to Pikachu Jab 1 will miss. This will mostly happen if Pikachu is running past you/dash grabbing/dash attacking.

Also, Utilt is an automatic tipper on Pikachu no matter how close you are (but at mid Utilt range it's a sour hit) and of course, at max Utilt range it's still a tipper. This is when Pikachu is grounded btw.

BUT, Utilt will miss up close (and not even that close) if Pikachu is facing the other direction.

I can't even.

 

[A_Kae]

Was fighting a Pikachu the other day and I kept trying to jab his approaches. My jab missed three times in a row. So I just went on training on found out some stuff on the Marth vs Pikachu MU.

If you're too close to Pikachu Jab 1 will miss. This will mostly happen if Pikachu is running past you/dash grabbing/dash attacking.

Also, Utilt is an automatic tipper on Pikachu no matter how close you are (but at mid Utilt range it's a sour hit) and of course, at max Utilt range it's still a tipper. This is when Pikachu is grounded btw.

BUT, Utilt will miss up close (and not even that close) if Pikachu is facing the other direction.

I can't even.

Jab 1 in general can miss up close. It's mainly noticeable against short characters, but I know for sure that Marth can get close and crouch under Jab 1.

 

[Vipermoon]

Jab 1 in general can miss up close. It's mainly noticeable against short characters, but I know for sure that Marth can get close and crouch under Jab 1.

Yeah I haven't checked other characters. Sucks. And now I want that frame 4 hitbox back.

 

[A_Kae]

Yeah I haven't checked other characters. Sucks. And now I want that frame 4 hitbox back.

So much about Marth's hitboxes are just unnecessarily frustrating.

There's nothing I want more for Marth than hitboxes matching the animations.

 

[Ffamran]

It depends on the weapon I think. With a Dagger, you can really focus in on your one arm to deliver the slashing blow, kinda like a hook in boxing motion. With a full sword, you have to use a larger range of muscles other than your arm because if the size and weight.

Karambits and trench knives love reverse grips.

I don't believe Roy uses a reverse grip for most of his attacks, only some. It reduces the range of the moves due to the action however, it feels like a very strange balance choice to balance how strong Roy's sweet-spot hits are.

Jab, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Utilt, Fair, Blazer, and Counter are the only moves I know he uses a reverse grip. Everything else is just Marth and Lucina's with Side Smash being Link's Side Smash 1, Dair being Ike's, and ironically of all the things to keep "cloned", Flare Blade being his from Melee.

None of the characters do it right lol.

Mac has terrible form. Guy swings so wildly.

But Ryu, though, and technically Fox at times; outside Utilt, Dtilt, Uair, and Dair, his attacks look pretty normal. Meanwhile, Falco and his reverse-Capoeira.

Is Mac really that bad? I know almost 0 about boxing, but it doesn't look bad to me.

Outside of jab, Ftilt, Side Smash - the variations are just a straight, uppercut, and body shot -, kind of KO Punch - it's a really exaggerated uppercut -, the stance for Slip Counter, his walk, idle stance, and technically grab and his pummel - although those aren't boxing-legal as far as I'm aware, but he's actually holding his opponent well like Ryu compared everyone who just holds onto people's collars -, everything else is something you would not do in boxing much less be allowed to do.

Anyway, enough with the off-topic talk...

Anyway, I wanna talk about Diddy a bit. I've picked him up lately and I think this character still has what it takes to compete at the top, despite his rewards being rather mediocre, he's incredibly consistent at it and banana allows him to adapt to the situation and allow creative play. Very well designed character now.

He was never bad and he was always good, but too good pre-pre-patch and some would argue, pre-patch. People are just overreacting to his buffs. I mean, if Diddy was a low-tier now, ZeRo wouldn't be a good player, instead, he'd be the best player as of now if he's winning with a low-tier like that. The wild thing about him was his Uair at launch with it's power, speed, and funky hitbox. Everything else was okay, but not pushing it. I mean, it wasn't like Diddy had Kirby's landing lag, Sonic's speed, and Ganondorf's power. He just had one move that was way too versatile. His Uair functioned as a kill move, a juggler, a combo breaker, and a setup and it did all of this really well compared to say Captain Falcon's Uair which was and still is a kill move, a juggler, a combo breaker, and a setup, but it's slower than Diddy's which makes combo breaking not as good and the way the Capt.'s throws work didn't allow him to Uair people to death like Diddy did at launch. No move should be like that since it overshadowed Diddy's other aerials including Fair at times. Now, each of Diddy's aerials serve a purpose and aren't as overshadowed and people have to make use of Diddy's entire moveset to play him well.

At the same time, how many Diddy fights have happened? Probably more than Luigi, Sheik, Mario, Fox, and even Captain Falcon. We know high level, mid level, and low level Diddy play. People understand at least the basics of how Diddy works. In the beginning people didn't know how to DI his D-throw, hell, people didn't even knew how his D-throw worked and how it could setup his Uair. Now people do and people have some clue on how to fight him. Diddy being so dominant was part Diddy being a bit too good and part people overreacting and not knowing how to play the game. Going from Street Fighter IV to V should feel different even if SFV Ryu was very, very similar to SFIV Ryu. That applies to all games, so people should have expected that Smash 4 was different, that they didn't know how the game worked, and how to "counter" the characters and how things worked. Remember Link's "infinite". That overreacting almost killed a good character. He probably will never have his awesome jab cancel anymore, but patches have been trying to make him generally a better fighter.

 

[Vipermoon]

So much about Marth's hitboxes are just unnecessarily frustrating.

There's nothing I want more for Marth than hitboxes matching the animations.

IKR? That's literally all I want. The ridiculously strict autocancel windows and high landing lag can stay as long as I get that.

 

[Ffamran]

Funny that everybody is talking about correct form on moves and a little while ago the zss boards had a thread about how her form on moves are.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zero-suit-samus-martial-arts-analysis.402066/

Her Side Smash and Dash Attack makes me want to punch her in the face and drag her off to a proper martial arts gym, dojo, studio... thing. Why is she leaning so far back while doing a side kick for the second part of her Side Smash and why is she leaning so far in while doing a flying knee!? The inner martial artist enthusiast in me really is annoyed by ZSS's improper and dangerous to her techniques. I even ranted about it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/soci...p-form-a-circle.383568/page-468#post-18373807.

IKR? That's literally all I want. The ridiculously strict autocancel windows and high landing lag can stay as long as I get that.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Doesn't Marth's Uair have a deadzone at the end of it or something? I remember not being able to hit with the last part of Marth's Uair despite the freaking trail and animation showing that it's clearly there. Hmm... Speaking of which. Do Marth, Lucina, and Roy use their Uair for juggles much? I think Ike does, but his is more powerful, but he generally has shorter "combos" while Link and Toon Link's Uairs linger for too long to actually juggle. I should find and watch more of Marth, Lucina, and Roy.

 

[A_Kae]

Her Side Smash and Dash Attack makes me want to punch her in the face and drag her off to a proper martial arts gym, dojo, studio... thing. Why is she leaning so far back while doing a side kick for the second part of her Side Smash and why is she leaning so far in while doing a flying knee!? The inner martial artist enthusiast in me really is annoyed by ZSS's improper and dangerous to her techniques. I even ranted about it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/social-thread-4-1™-rockets-spiders-drums-arms-wings-lightning-marsupials-and-op-form-a-circle.383568/page-468#post-18373807.


Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Doesn't Marth's Uair have a deadzone at the end of it or something? I remember not being able to hit with the last part of Marth's Uair despite the freaking trail and animation showing that it's clearly there. Hmm... Speaking of which. Do Marth, Lucina, and Roy use their Uair for juggles much? I think Ike does, but his is more powerful, but he generally has shorter "combos" while Link and Toon Link's Uairs linger for too long to actually juggle. I should find and watch more of Marth, Lucina, and Roy.

Some of his attacks just flat out have no hitboxes when they should, (FAIR WHY) but I don't think Uair is like that. It's just that he's got lots of moves that miss for no reason when they should be hitting. That's what's happening with Uair, I think (Edit: I'm wrong, it does actually have fewer active frames than it should). Utilt can cleanly pass through someone and not hit. And this happens with lots of stuff. Go to training mode, as Marth vs Marth, set damage to 100, and hit with a tipped Jab 1, and start jab 2. Jab 2 will go right through Marth without hitting.

As for juggling, Uair can be used for that, but I find using it to force an airdodge near the ground, and then punishing the landing lag is better IMO.

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Doesn't Marth's Uair have a deadzone at the end of it or something? I remember not being able to hit with the last part of Marth's Uair despite the freaking trail and animation showing that it's clearly there. Hmm... Speaking of which. Do Marth, Lucina, and Roy use their Uair for juggles much? I think Ike does, but his is more powerful, but he generally has shorter "combos" while Link and Toon Link's Uairs linger for too long to actually juggle. I should find and watch more of Marth, Lucina, and Roy.

Yeah Uair had that dead zone in every game. Being active frames 5-9 isn't enough. It can still hit from behind though. They REALLY fixed it for Roy however. His Uair is active frames 5-12. Which is crazy. I don't even think the animation was slowed to justify this. This makes Roy's falling Uair combos way better than Marth's from a reliability standpoint (you want to land behind them to stay safe but only Roy's will reliably hit that way).

As far as juggling yeah, with Roy being the more mobile character in the air and on the ground and considering his Uair has 4 frames less end lag he probably does it better. There is the drawback however that he can't spend much time in the air due to being a fast faller and that his Uair will never kill. The former actually making the less end lag not even matter. Either way in my opinion they are pretty good characters for juggling. They would be among the best if they had Melee/Brawl autocancel windows. Then the juggles would combo. Man wouldn't that be awesome?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Some of his attacks just flat out have no hitboxes when they should, (FAIR WHY) but I don't think Uair is like that. It's just that he's got lots of moves that miss for no reason when they should be hitting. That's what's happening with Uair, I think (Edit: I'm wrong, it does actually have fewer active frames than it should). Utilt can cleanly pass through someone and not hit. And this happens with lots of stuff. Go to training mode, as Marth vs Marth, set damage to 100, and hit with a tipped Jab 1, and start jab 2. Jab 2 will go right through Marth without hitting.

As for juggling, Uair can be used for that, but I find using it to force an airdodge near the ground, and then punishing the landing lag is better IMO.

Yo, DK mains feel you so bad. The gaps in hitboxes makes us cry. I made 2 topics about it a while back (Whiff Kong on DK Boards and Too Close for (Dis)Comfort on the general competitive board). Honestly, the amount of gaps in moves in this game...smh.

 

[Vipermoon]

In general active frames in this game might be reduced. Though some characters more than others. Some examples I can think: Ike, Marth, Metaknight.

 

[Nyhte]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you can get nearly as much power in a strike with reverse gripping.

Not to digress too much but a tidbit about swords

Most likely the only significant difference in power in favor of the reverse grip would be piercing attacks, but you're giving up the flexibility and range for that reverse grip.

Thrusting with a sword for piercing is awkward and unwieldy, or at the very least lackluster compared to how much power you know and can be generated.

That's only as far as one hand is concerned though

The common thing to do for more thrusting power, (also control in some situations) was a technique known as half-swording

Nah, it really doesn't connect that much worse than Brawl did. The main issues with Dancing Blade is DB1 where, like Shaya said, it starts on frame 7 now and lags like crazy. It even lags more than Brawl in the air (not as much of an increase as ground though). Our Jab 1 is the new DB1 that Melee and Brawl had. DB4 Down lags too much now. Let's see...oh and pretty much every hit of Dancing Blade's hitboxes last one frame shorter, a lot like many of Marth's other moves.

On the plus side, DB2 and DB3 lag less and ledge kills with Dancing Blade are better than ever. The ledge even helps you get the tipper.

Maybe better sharing those feels on those boards but...
I would say I'm getting more kills from dancing blade in Smash 4 than Brawl. Rage existing and momentum cancelling not existing helps a lot. I think kill power on at least the forward 4th strike is higher (tipper of it killing at ledges at like 70% sometimes even with move staling) is definitely NOT something that happened in Brawl. Upwards probably kills earlier too, tipper staled killing lighties at around 90-100% sometimes. However, comboing into upper hits in Smash4 is a lot harder than in Brawl.

DB1 is slower on the ground, but that incentivizes Jab more. Brawl DB1 has the same trajectory as current Jab does, and unlike in Brawl, Jab is actually real frame advantage, while DB1 was just a trap that you may have gotten a grab from.
So yeah, more end lag, ughh, and higher start up, also ughh. If DB was 4 frames again it would be nice, but it's still a really good move at 7 frames.

Anyway with the mewtwo patch comboing forward hits of DB became pretty reliable at most/all percent.

Stopping at 3rd hits of DB with Marth was a really really niche playstyle thing for certain players. You would only see it at high level because of people having amazing smash DI to get out of DB made doing the first 3 strikes only as safer, although it didn't send people anywhere, it just avoided the 50 frame punish window whiffing DB4 would result in.

Right, I think you had to be at a really high % in brawl for dancing blades to kill, if dancing blades in melee was the high power version with the brawl version being the easy-to-combo version, smash 4 blades seem to be a mix. I think the 3rd side dancing blade in melee hit farther, I'm not sure about if rage is accounted for though. Maybe the thing that irks me the most is that while the current dancing blades are a combination of power and ease of connection, two other things that made
dancing blades awesome in both games was removed, once you caught a dancing blade in smash 4 that was a guaranteed DB 4th combo hit which happened really fast, it was fluid to the hands and didn't seem to have a heavy 'limiter' in terms of you having to wait to press B again. While in melee the 3rd hit of DB up could actually throw your opponent down if you timed it right, or the situation was right, and the third down hit had more presence, it wasn't a simple stab at the foot, it would throw someone into the knocked down, laying down position, while also doing the same if someone was in the air, so if there wasn't a ground platform for them to reach, they'd get flung down.

My memory of course could be an inaccurate representation, I haven't played brawl in awhile.

The 3rd dancing blade side hit definitely did send people somewhere but melee's dancing blades also were easier for people to DI out of based on positioning and % I believe. I was trying to find some recent use of the 3rd hit, but the first three or so videos I checked of recent melee videos had little to no use of 3 combo hit dancing blades, it was used in one video but it didn't connect, 'really wanted one that did so I could give you a quick comparison of the power in it.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah Uair had that dead zone in every game. Being active frames 5-9 isn't enough. It can still hit from behind though. They REALLY fixed it for Roy however. His Uair is active frames 5-12. Which is crazy. I don't even think the animation was slowed to justify this. This makes Roy's falling Uair combos way better than Marth's from a reliability standpoint (you want to land behind them to stay safe but only Roy's will reliably hit that way).

5-9? That's only 5 frames where it's active. That's not that bad and the same as Falco's which is frame 7-11, also still 5 active frames and Mario's is 4-8 - wow, he has current Diddy's Uair startup - which is still 5 active frames. Compared to Captain Falcon's Uair that is 6-12 which is 7 active frames, it's still not bad. And then we have Ganondorf with his 6-16, 11 active frames Uair. As for Triple D... I don't want to know... That Uair and Dash Attack the chubby penguin has...

Huh, I wonder why the hitbox is messed up... Wished we had a hitbox viewer. Memory isn't something I should go off of, but Marth's Uair animation isn't that fast, right? The other problem would be this: end lag. Marth can't act out of Uair until frame 46 while Mario acts at 32 and Falco and Captain Falcon act at 34. As for Roy, apparently, he gets to act out at frame 42 if Aero's frame data is correct.

As far as juggling yeah, with Roy being the more mobile character in the air and on the ground and considering his Uair has 4 frames less end lag he probably does it better. There is the drawback however that he can't spend much time in the air due to being a fast faller and that his Uair will never kill. The former actually making the less end lag not even matter. Either way in my opinion they are pretty good characters for juggling. They would be among the best if they had Melee/Brawl autocancel windows. Then the juggles would combo. Man wouldn't that be awesome?

Roy's 5-12 Uair would only have 8 active frames... That's good and would be a bit better than Captain Falcon's except Roy has a tipper mechanic and Captain Falcon has a much better jump. Captain Falcon being able to string his Uair so well is a combination of his Uair, jump height, and air speed. Roy would be able to string Uairs, but he'd need to hit with the right hitbox at the right percents. After a certain point Roy might not be able to keep up vertically.

 

[Ikes]

isnt it weird that the mascots are the ones that do best against sheik?

Kirby, Sonic, Pikachu(?) I've even heard that Mario does well. Whats up with that?

 

[Vipermoon]

5-9? That's only 5 frames where it's active. That's not that bad and the same as Falco's which is frame 7-11, also still 5 active frames and Mario's is 4-8 - wow, he has current Diddy's Uair startup - which is still 5 active frames. Compared to Captain Falcon's Uair that is 6-12 which is 7 active frames, it's still not bad. And then we have Ganondorf with his 6-16, 11 active frames Uair. As for Triple D... I don't want to know... That Uair and Dash Attack the chubby penguin has...

Huh, I wonder why the hitbox is messed up... Wished we had a hitbox viewer. Memory isn't something I should go off of, but Marth's Uair animation isn't that fast, right? The other problem would be this: end lag. Marth can't act out of Uair until frame 46 while Mario acts at 32 and Falco and Captain Falcon act at 34. As for Roy, apparently, he gets to act out at frame 42 if Aero's frame data is correct.

Roy's 5-12 Uair would only have 8 active frames... That's good and would be a bit better than Captain Falcon's except Roy has a tipper mechanic and Captain Falcon has a much better jump. Captain Falcon being able to string his Uair so well is a combination of his Uair, jump height, and air speed. Roy would be able to string Uairs, but he'd need to hit with the right hitbox at the right percents. After a certain point Roy might not be able to keep up vertically.

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/
Uair works exactly the same as Melee so the GIF here would be an accurate representation. Oh WOW, Marth was 5-8 in Melee! That's horrible. You can see how much of the swing is ignored. Roy's in Melee was 5-10 FWIW.

While 5 active frames isn't bad, it's the fact that Marth starts at his feet and ends pretty low behind him in a speed where 5 or 4 active frames isn't enough.

 

[A_Kae]

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/
Uair works exactly the same as Melee so the GIF here would be an accurate representation. Oh WOW, Marth was 5-8 in Melee! That's horrible. You can see how much of the swing is ignored. Roy's in Melee was 5-10 FWIW.

While 5 active frames isn't bad, it's the fact that Marth starts at his feet and ends pretty low behind him in a speed where 5 or 4 active frames isn't enough.

That's worse than I thought. How does this make any sense to the people in charge of these things? If they didn't want Marth hitting past F9, they should have just had the animation changed.

Looking at that gif, Uair looks like it should probably stop hitting on F16 or something close to that.

@ Ffamran Remember that Marth has hitboxes with wide arcs, so there's a big part of the swing with no hitbox. 5 frames in this case is actually bad.

 

[Teshie U]

isnt it weird that the mascots are the ones that do best against sheik?

Kirby, Sonic, Pikachu(?) I've even heard that Mario does well. Whats up with that?

Well most heroes/mascots aren't designed to feel like slow powerhouses (the types of characters that can never even hit sheik). But you can see the ones that were designed to be slow zoning or grappling characters dont have a good time there tbh. Donkey Kong, Samus, Link and even the other 3rd parties to an extent weren't given the speedy types of movesets that give you a chance against sheik.

If you think about what most villainous characters do (wait for the hero to get past mountains of obstacles), naturally heroes wind up being the quick speedsters that need to approach well (but in smash it often allows them to camp better too).

 

[Ffamran]

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/
Uair works exactly the same as Melee so the GIF here would be an accurate representation. Oh WOW, Marth was 5-8 in Melee! That's horrible. You can see how much of the swing is ignored. Roy's in Melee was 5-10 FWIW.

While 5 active frames isn't bad, it's the fact that Marth starts at his feet and ends pretty low behind him in a speed where 5 or 4 active frames isn't enough.

Not surprising with the whole same as Melee/Brawl thing, but hmm... The funny thing is that past Smash games had problems where hitboxes were bigger than the animation, but now, it's smaller than animation. Oh, and deadzones too. I wonder if they could extend Marth's Uair to 5-10 like Melee Roy's. They fixed Bowser's Utilt, so they might as well fix Marth and Lucina's Uair.

 

[Vipermoon]

Not surprising with the whole same as Melee/Brawl thing, but hmm... The funny thing is that past Smash games had problems where hitboxes were bigger than the animation, but now, it's smaller than animation. Oh, and deadzones too. I wonder if they could extend Marth's Uair to 5-10 like Melee Roy's. They fixed Bowser's Utilt, so they might as well fix Marth and Lucina's Uair.

Yup.

And both jabs (supposed to hit below, above, and behind)
And Fair (supposed to hit above)
And Ftilt (supposed to hit behind)
And Utilt (well actually Utilt's problem lies where characters' hurtboxes are between frames 6 and 7 no maybe nvm)
And Fsmash (it technically is supposed to hit behind him )
And DB4 Forward (animations show it hits above)

But the only ones that wouldn't be OP would be fixing Fair, Uair, and the jabs (okay the jabs don't have to hit behind). Those have the biggest issues anyway (not sure how you'd fix Utilt). Try hitting the Smashville balloon with Fair. I dare you.

 

[A_Kae]

Looking at the hitbox sizes in mastercore, utilt doesn't seem to be any different from other moves, so I'm not sure why it misses like it does. Other moves have the same problem, but nowhere near as often as utilt. It could just be that the situations that make utilt miss tend to occur more often, (it seems to miss a lot after nair 1, in my experience) but it's definitely more of an issue than other moves.

Edit: No, I'm wrong. Marth's moves have the hitbox (for both the blade and tip) adjusted in the Z axis by 1. Utilt doesn't have this.

Hitboxes are attached to a model's bone, and then have their size set, and position adjusted if required. Utilt doesn't have it's position set right. Bones are the same, sizes are the same, position relative to the bone isn't.

Edit 2: Even though that's likely utilt's problem, Marth still has hitbox issues like that for other things, it's just that none of them are as bad as utilt. Slight size increases would help.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I dare you.

I dair you too.

Seriously, I have talking been about how hitboxes and animations don't align, albeit on DK. Is it cuz Marth is more popular that it's now more relevant? I mean DK has 6 moves that whiff and one that whiffs and doesn't function properly.

Sakurai, fix hitbox and bone relation placement!

 

[A_Kae]

I dair you too.

Seriously, I have talking been about how hitboxes and animations don't align, albeit on DK. Is it cuz Marth is more popular that it's now more relevant? I mean DK has 6 moves that whiff and one that whiffs and doesn't function properly.

Sakurai, fix hitbox and bone relation placement!

I'd say it's just that the current conversation here happened to come to Marth's hitboxes, not Marth being more popular making it more relevant. This kind of discussion usually happens in a character's subforum, that's probably why you haven't seen much of it.

Smash 4 has got some real issues with this. What are some other characters that have significant hitbox issues like this?

 

[Vipermoon]

Something tells me WFT has hitbox issues but I haven't looked closely at it. I just know her range is crap in pretty much everything she does. For her it may not be about matching animations, more like hitboxes that are too small.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's animations have tended to always have a bit of a non-hitting swings, even in Brawl. Jab and ftilt never hit as far behind as it looked and now have slightly notable pre-trail, Up tilt would hit everything if it was a frame 5 move, but hitbox comes in on 6 (in Melee it was still 6 but it would start low); so yeah much like Bowser's pre-buff up tilt. Fair in Brawl had a little bit of trails before and after, but they're vastly 'longer' in Smash4. Jab had bigger hitboxes in Brawl so it isn't hitting close to the ground from the hilt which covered him at point blank in Brawl (IIRC Marth lost hilt hitboxes on a lot of moves).
However, forward tilt still basically hits nearly the entire breadth of the swing animation, you can hit people high above your ahead at least.

Mumble mumble it's also relevant to Lucina guys, jeez forgive mumble mumble.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth's animations have tended to always have a bit of a non-hitting swings, even in Brawl. Jab and ftilt never hit as far behind as it looked and now have slightly notable pre-trail, Up tilt would hit everything if it was a frame 5 move, but hitbox comes in on 6 (in Melee it was still 6 but it would start low); so yeah much like Bowser's pre-buff up tilt. Fair in Brawl had a little bit of trails before and after, but they're vastly 'longer' in Smash4. Jab had bigger hitboxes in Brawl so it isn't hitting close to the ground from the hilt which covered him at point blank in Brawl (IIRC Marth lost hilt hitboxes on a lot of moves).
However, forward tilt still basically hits nearly the entire breadth of the swing animation, you can hit people high above your ahead at least.

Mumble mumble it's also relevant to Lucina guys, jeez forgive mumble mumble.

A frame 5 on Utilt would definitely solve the point blank Pikachu issue but not the other stuff like where Utilt will go right through another Marth's face which is apparently a Z axis issue @ A_Kae ? I don't know, I always thought it was simply a dead zone between frames 6 and 7.

I remember things from Melee, for example, this one thread talked about Utilt hitting Popo but not Nana. That was definitely Z axis since Nana is further from the screen.

 

[A_Kae]

A frame 5 on Utilt would definitely solve the point blank Pikachu issue but not the other stuff like where Utilt will go right through another Marth's face which is apparently a Z axis issue @ A_Kae ? I don't know, I always thought it was simply a dead zone between frames 6 and 7.

I remember things from Melee, for example, this one thread talked about Utilt hitting Popo but not Nana. That was definitely Z axis since Nana is further from the screen.

WFT is probably just small hitboxes, but I don't know WFT well enough to say.

As for U-tilt, the hitboxes for the tip and blade are in different spots relative to the sword than they are for Marth's other moves. The hitboxes are there, but they aren't where they're supposed to be. Other moves have this issue, (I've had f-tilt miss like this, but only twice since smash 4 came out) just not as often.

Marth's moves have dead zones in them, gaps in how the hitboxes are aligned, but that's not why u-tilt is an issue. (or at least, not the main issue).

Spoiler: Hitbox Data for U-Tilt and F-Smash

U-tilt Tip

    Hitbox_026(ID=0x3, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=9.000000, Angle=0x64, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x32, Size=3.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=6.700000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.250000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

U-Tilt Blade

    Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x64, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x32, Size=3.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=2.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=0.700000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

F-Smash Tip

    Hitbox_026(ID=0x3, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=18.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x50, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x50, Size=3.500000, Z=1.000000, Y=0.000000, X=7.300000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.500000, SDI=0.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x8, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

F-Smash Blade

    Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=13.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x50, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x37, Size=3.500000, Z=1.000000, Y=0.000000, X=2.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=0.700000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

Note the Z adjust difference. F-smash (and everything else) is 1, u-tilt is 0. That's why u-tilt misses so much.

Marth's attacks in general have dead zones, but they're not significant. Like I said earlier, I've had f-tilt miss like u-tilt does, but only twice. U-Tilt is a combination of dead zones+z axis.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So I was labbing with DK and noticed some neat cargo stuff:
-Cargo up toss can true combo into the top hitbox of Fair for a 26% combo + pummels. Afterwards it starts to true combo into Uair, then around mid percents he's got nothing.
-Cargo down toss has no true combos I'm aware of because it has low hitstun. However there's one thing that makes this throw unique to any other throw in the game: DK can regrab afterwards as a mixup. To explain, normally after an opponent is thrown it takes about a second for the game to let you grab again successfully. However, since the forward throw is DK carrying the opponent, by the time he does the down toss the timer is already up and he can grab again. I'm almost certain it is not a chain grab and is escapable but I need to test it some more. If nothing else, this has good mixup potential.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'd say it's just that the current conversation here happened to come to Marth's hitboxes, not Marth being more popular making it more relevant. This kind of discussion usually happens in a character's subforum, that's probably why you haven't seen much of it.

Smash 4 has got some real issues with this. What are some other characters that have significant hitbox issues like this?

Shulk. Quite a few of moves miss point blank. Doc and Bowser also miss point blank. Zelda also misses. I think Zelda has the most in game.

So I was labbing with DK and noticed some neat cargo stuff:
-Cargo up toss can true combo into the top hitbox of Fair for a 26% combo + pummels. Afterwards it starts to true combo into Uair, then around mid percents he's got nothing.
-Cargo down toss has no true combos I'm aware of because it has low hitstun. However there's one thing that makes this throw unique to any other throw in the game: DK can regrab afterwards as a mixup. To explain, normally after an opponent is thrown it takes about a second for the game to let you grab again successfully. However, since the forward throw is DK carrying the opponent, by the time he does the down toss the timer is already up and he can grab again. I'm almost certain it is not a chain grab and is escapable but I need to test it some more. If nothing else, this has good mixup potential.

We know cargo u throw combos.Cargo d throw is often used to stage spike now. The cargo d throw is if people AD to the ground without DIing. Using it on stage is situational at best. At mid percents, I often use cargo b throw to rack up 13% and it doesn't stale. I keep doing that whenever a grab punish is suitable.

 

[Ikes]

So I was labbing with DK and noticed some neat cargo stuff:
-Cargo up toss can true combo into the top hitbox of Fair for a 26% combo + pummels. Afterwards it starts to true combo into Uair, then around mid percents he's got nothing.
-Cargo down toss has no true combos I'm aware of because it has low hitstun. However there's one thing that makes this throw unique to any other throw in the game: DK can regrab afterwards as a mixup. To explain, normally after an opponent is thrown it takes about a second for the game to let you grab again successfully. However, since the forward throw is DK carrying the opponent, by the time he does the down toss the timer is already up and he can grab again. I'm almost certain it is not a chain grab and is escapable but I need to test it some more. If nothing else, this has good mixup potential.

actually, can DK chain grab anyone with cargo grab release?

 

[Luco]

People don't understand how to use him - or more than half the cast for that matter -, people don't understand how patches work - doesn't help that the developers absolutely refuse to release patch notes and let placebos run rampant -, and probably, people are sheep. Seriously, we've see this with Charizard who got buffed not heavily in terms of numbers, but in terms of function and he's much better. Then we see him drop places hard in a publicly voted tier list. Hell, look at Diddy and how there are people who think he's mid tier now or people freaking out over Captain Falcon's minor Uair nerf that may or may not have made it easier to setup Knees or if you dare, go to Eventhubs.

Ffamran, not you too... ;_; Charizard went up this tier list! Obviously not where he needs to be, but like, yeah, remember the DLC chars skewed the numbers so it looks like Charizard went down when in actuality he didn't.

And geez, you guys started a Lucas discussion without me? Time to catch up.

What do you guys think about Lucas right now?

I myself see him as being probably mid. He has great throws but an awful grab, his range is lacking and his kill power is significantly worse than Ness's. He's not just a worse Ness because he has a lot of good stuff of his own, but I do think he lacks a lot of what makes Ness so good.

I had forgotten what it was like to struggle getting kills with a main. Even in Brawl, Lucas had Dair --> Dtilt lock at 80% which was so, so easy to set up and even if it was teched you could punish. PK Hoo-hah is good but can be DI-ed/read... You've heard me rant about this before.

^Nope. Lucas is for me top tier. If you're relying on his grabs, you're using him wrong. At the start of the match, down thrown into neutral air and you have good percent. But then after that you can quickly try to fall to the ground, and then use Up Tilt. Then Neutral Air, and do some frame trap tricks with him. You can also do some awesome Neutral Air strings. You do short hop into Neutral Air, if it connects, then you have free follow-ups for days without a grab and you can finish with Forward Air or Back Air spike (if you can). Also he can run away from the opponent, jump, do PK Fire and get launched even farther from your opponent. He also has a Zair attack. It isn't as good as Zero Suit or Samus Zair but it's a good tool for spacing.

When your opponent is trying to come back, you can do Dair. And if you miss, you can jump backwards and do Bair while your opponent is in the stage and you won't get punished at all, and you will make it back to the stage. Lucas has some pretty good tools, some frame traps, one of the best jabs in the game, good combos and his Forward Smash is so much better than Ness's. Also his PSI magnet his a semi-spike if it hits you. After playing with him so much. I even feel like Ness is garbage. (Just my opinion though. I really don't want to sound bias or mean to the Ness mains).

Lucas has too many MUs he struggles in to be top tier, or make Ness look like trash. His combo and chaining game is superb, far better than Ness could ever hope for, and jab is boss, but his average mobility and lack of kill confirms (a whiffed grab is so, SO bad) really hurts him against characters that can exploit it.

Pretty much that last note encapsulates my feelings. He's not even comparable to Ness, except that he has a few moves with vaguely similar animations and...I guess Final Smash?

I think his kill power is actually, perforce, as strong as if not better than Ness's; the issue is that he has very few reliable setups from which to activate them. U-smash may be among the strongest KO options in the game, yet it's near-useless if he can't actually find an opportune moment to connect the damn thing.

Incidentally, I feel like his trailer led a few of us astray in that regard: it looked like d-throw would actually bury relative to the opponent's percentage as other burial moves do, rather than just mimic the effect for animation purposes. That would almost definitely have opened the door to u-smash setups, which would almost definitely be too jank to remain unpatched. But I digress.

I think Lucas is...interesting. I feel like he has a ton of potential and could be excellent, except his moves are either too situational or have hefty tradeoffs:

- Three potentially fatal throws that are hampered by a terrible grab
- Terrifying KO power that he'll almost never hit with
- His PK Fire doesn't have anything that Ness's does to make it useful
- He trades PKT2's strength for distance (that he doesn't really need due to his rather good tether grab)
- He doesn't have Ness's speed or combo game, he has to pace himself and do things his own way
- PK Freeze is at least a decent quasi-projectile, compared to Ness's ultra-situational mobile explosion

I think he's going to be mid at least, though I could see him going higher. The crux of the matter is that he isn't Ness, and you can't play him anything like Ness. He can't rely on the same things that Ness has to take him there. If he's going to climb the charts (and, as I say, I think he could), I reckon it will be because people figure out how to get those setups in place and respect him as his own character rather than Ness 2.0.

I dunno, to be honest people in Brawl knew he was different, tbh I don't think that's the problem. It's also fair to mention that SH PK Fire is good at covering landings and is quite safe, and its burst damage and KB can put the opponent in a potentially awkward position. As for PKT2, the distance would be great (in those situations where he's really far out) if it wasn't for the fact that any old hitbox can beat it outright. It's almost infuriating to watch people not go down to edge-guard it, you really feel like you're just getting away with it, and people will probably start exploiting that soon which will be more infuriating.

i think is high mid/bottom of high. his keepaway/walling game is ****ing obnoxious with zair/sh pkf. he does have setups into his grab(advancing zair), so you dont have to get hard reads to grab. in fact, his zair is probably the best in the game. hits lower than most zairs, sets up threatening moves(fsmash and grab mainly, but it can also set up sweetspot fair and ftilt) and it goes through projectiles(idk if this is true for other zairs, but zair straight up eats hadokens and fireballs) so that you practically have to come in close to fight . he simply cant be camped between zair, magnet, and fsmash(it comes out quick enough to react to stuff like fireballs and hadokens in midrange) and his upclose game isnt bad either(a frame 2 jab with huge reach for its looks, ftilt which comes out fast+disjointed, a f3 utilt that antiairs amazingly well, and a nair that leads into ridiculous combos). his main weaknesses are that his mobility isnt the best(its certainly better than /, but its pretty mediocre) , that he struggles landing (he can use tricky movement in the air w/ pkf and magnet, but he cant really challenge anything below him since dair isnt really disjointed enough), and that his grab is simply...bad. it comes out slow, takes forever to end, and you practically need a setup or hard read to get it. of course, if he had a regular grab, he'd easily be high tier or better.

and now, i do believe he can compete with high/top tiers. i feel he beats (fireball is not really good in this matchup. zair eats it, he can hit it with the stick, absorb it, etc. and his mobility is so poor that he's likely only getting in if makes a big mistake.), i also feel he can contend with , , , basically anyone who doesnt have tier mobility or doesnt care about his walling(**** . is also a royal pain in the ***) i do feel that he can beat ///, because his reward off a grab is amazing, but i do feel that they are very annoying matchups. and of course, struggling against the highest tier of characters doesnt help at all. but i feel he's viable with a secondary for his absolute worst matchups( those being /)

It's funny that also has trouble with these last two. Lucas' SH PK Fire and Zair are great like I said, but they aren't without their own issues. Against many characters, I feel like I'm doing retreating Zair and SH PK Fire and then op! I'm at the edge of the stage with nowhere to go. Also people can jump out of Zair before you can grab I'm pretty sure. It's true though that Zair eats projectiles for breakfast (lol, it's funny 'cause it's a snake ). is potentially a dis-advantaged MU for Lucas just like it was in Brawl (although probably only by -1), not too sure about Fox and Diddy. I do think he beats Luigi, or at least goes even with him, which is brilliant, but he needs more to be useful as a viable character.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'd say it's just that the current conversation here happened to come to Marth's hitboxes, not Marth being more popular making it more relevant. This kind of discussion usually happens in a character's subforum, that's probably why you haven't seen much of it.

Smash 4 has got some real issues with this. What are some other characters that have significant hitbox issues like this?

Mewtwo has a lot of misleading hitboxes on tail attacks, particularly utilt. Fsmash also has a dead zone in front of him

 

[Ikes]

is charizards dthrow to fair to regrab guaranteed at lower %? can it combo to the point where upb would kill? someone look into this, im not in a position where i can

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm really liking the type of character Roy is. Despite his speed he's not really a rushdown down character. I've been watching gnes use him and he's be showing a lot. The best roy I've seen thus far.