Character Competitive Impressions

[Spinosaurus]

Even after all of the Marth buffs I see people saying that Marth is low tier, that he has a bad neutral game, etc. What are people missing or misunderstanding?

They just don't know the significance of his jab buff. It takes results for the general opinion on a character to shift, unfortunately, but I don't doubt Marth will get those results.

 

[Ffamran]

Even after all of the Marth buffs I see people saying that Marth is low tier, that he has a bad neutral game, etc. What are people missing or misunderstanding?

People don't understand how to use him - or more than half the cast for that matter -, people don't understand how patches work - doesn't help that the developers absolutely refuse to release patch notes and let placebos run rampant -, and probably, people are sheep. Seriously, we've see this with Charizard who got buffed not heavily in terms of numbers, but in terms of function and he's much better. Then we see him drop places hard in a publicly voted tier list. Hell, look at Diddy and how there are people who think he's mid tier now or people freaking out over Captain Falcon's minor Uair nerf that may or may not have made it easier to setup Knees or if you dare, go to Eventhubs.

 

[BSP]

Trampoline is cool and all, but its far less rewarding than a throw in general. Pacman launches himself into the air with his opponent, risks punishment on hit at lower percents and unlike a grab, he doesn't get access to pummel damage/unstaling nor does he get to gain control of the situation by throwing his opponent off stage or setting up combos.

His tether has the range of a good normal grab but some TERRIBLE frame data. The animation isn't even that big, so why it the hitbox even smaller than what is showed.

Another problem with trampoline as a shield buster is that it requires Pac-Man to be on top of the opponent. Reacting to him running up to you isn't that hard.

Nevertheless, it still is a fairly reliable way of dealing with people that think they can sit in shield the whole match. It doesn't replace a grab in the slightest though.

Grab is straight awful. His arm doesn't grab, the F12 hitbox lasts for two frames, and the beam is littered with dead zones while Pac-Man stands there like an idiot. They don't seem to intend on improving it any, which means Pac-Man will probably never see consistent top level placings.

It's a bit much considering trampoline has counter play and 2 / 4 of his specials have capacity to be used against him. They overbalanced him a bit with his grab.

 

[bc1910]

The scariest thing Pac-Man can do to a shield is trampoline you out when a hydrant is flying toward you. Taking trampoline + hydrant damage is not fun and can lead to death. But otherwise yeah, getting trampolined out of your shield is not a major problem. Pac-Man HAS won the exchange since he's forced you out of your shield and dealt 7% damage, but he can't capitalize on his opponent being in the air until high percents really, when he can recover from his landing lag quick enough to punish.

 

[Ikes]

We already have trampoline which ignores shields.

trampoline is the next generation grab and i love it

Another problem with trampoline as a shield buster is that it requires Pac-Man to be on top of the opponent. Reacting to him running up to you isn't that hard.

Nevertheless, it still is a fairly reliable way of dealing with people that think they can sit in shield the whole match. It doesn't replace a grab in the slightest though.

Grab is straight awful. His arm doesn't grab, the F12 hitbox lasts for two frames, and the beam is littered with dead zones while Pac-Man stands there like an idiot. They don't seem to intend on improving it any, which means Pac-Man will probably never see consistent top level placings.

It's a bit much considering trampoline has counter play and 2 / 4 of his specials have capacity to be used against him. They overbalanced him a bit.

make that 3/4 specials, since fruits can be caught and hydrants tossed, but also his power pellet being interruptible and the enemy can subsequently heal off the pellet

 

[Makorel]

make that 3/4 specials, since fruits can be caught and hydrants tossed, but also his power pellet being interruptible and the enemy can subsequently heal off the pellet

Make that 4/4 when you count the times Pac-Man recovers too low and you eat his 3rd bounce.

 

[Kofu]

It's a bit much considering trampoline has counter play and 2 / 4 of his specials have capacity to be used against him. They overbalanced him a bit.

I'm not entirely sure about this, since I'm not sure if there's another character that relies on specials as much as Pac-Man does, at least in default. Possibly a few other projectile specialists/ranged fighters (Duck Hunt, Link, Toon Link, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer) and a couple of others to some degree that helps patch up their games in a few places. (Sheik, ZSS, Wario, Meta Knight). But even then I feel like Pac-Man relies more on his specials to have a cohesive game plan than most of the others I mentioned (Duck Hunt and Toon Link feel like the closest competitors). It might just be my opinion, but I've tried to use Pac-Man a few times without using his specials, for fun, and it's honestly interesting to see how his options drop off drastically. Giving his specials (which are admittedly strong and flexible, almost more than any other character) weaknesses feels like something natural to do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Even after all of the Marth buffs I see people saying that Marth is low tier, that he has a bad neutral game, etc. What are people missing or misunderstanding?

See now this...this is when you gotta sit down and really ask yourself, is this....is this life?

 

[NairWizard]

Phantasm to reset to neutral from disadvantage will ALWAYS be a thing.

Falco isnt good or bad.

He is a functional character with a gameplan that will reward you when executed properly. I know at this point we are at the mentality that if its not top ten its garbage which is fine for a tourney mindset, but for the sake of discussion and understanding each character I think its important we acknowledged that not every character is going to be the next Sheik, Sonic, Pika, ect.

Phantasm is frame 18 (19 after the patch). It's a good option, but not so much in the air (I'd favor falling up-air/drift away n-air depending on opponent's ground/airspeed). It might be great against characters like Ganondorf who can't reach you in time to punish the endlag though.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Falco can't be mid tier or semi-viable. I'm saying that Falco's current design occupies a range of theoretical positions on the spectrum of competitive viability, ranging from low tier (non-viable) to high tier (competitive). Bad mobility and bad disadvantaged state are two very big flaws--they're not just top tier qualities, they are top tier hallmarks. Falco could be bad, or he could be functional, or he could be amazing. I am not sure. Captain Falcon has one of the best neutrals in the game alongside one of the best advantaged states, but his bad disadvantage still keeps him out of the upper echelon of characters in discussion--Falco with not just bad disadvantage but also bad mobility? It's very hard to place him.

And, finally, I think that it's important to gauge whether or not a character will actually impact the meta. Most mid tiers will barely make a splash on the meta outside of one-off events (not to say that Falco is mid tier).

 

[Nobie]

See now this...this is when you gotta sit down and really ask yourself, is this....is this life?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3c690s/marths_tier_placement/

Reddit caveat of course but this thread is basically full of that sentiment.

 

[warionumbah2]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3c690s/marths_tier_placement/

This is absolutely disgusting.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I don't think we'll ever get an official smashboards tier list for awhile until daddy sakurai stops patching the game nerfing/buffing characters. The best we can do till then is just go with our own opinions and hope for the best for our mains.

People don't understand how to use him - or more than half the cast for that matter -, people don't understand how patches work - doesn't help that the developers absolutely refuse to release patch notes and let placebos run rampant -, and probably, people are sheep. Seriously, we've see this with Charizard who got buffed not heavily in terms of numbers, but in terms of function and he's much better. Then we see him drop places hard in a publicly voted tier list. Hell, look at Diddy and how there are people who think he's mid tier now or people freaking out over Captain Falcon's minor Uair nerf that may or may not have made it easier to setup Knees or if you dare, go to Eventhubs.

Ha eventhubs.. More like eventscrubs

Serisously though eventhubs is just terrible

 

[Nu~]

I'm not entirely sure about this, since I'm not sure if there's another character that relies on specials as much as Pac-Man does, at least in default. Possibly a few other projectile specialists/ranged fighters (Duck Hunt, Link, Toon Link, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer) and a couple of others to some degree that helps patch up their games in a few places. (Sheik, ZSS, Wario, Meta Knight). But even then I feel like Pac-Man relies more on his specials to have a cohesive game plan than most of the others I mentioned (Duck Hunt and Toon Link feel like the closest competitors). It might just be my opinion, but I've tried to use Pac-Man a few times without using his specials, for fun, and it's honestly interesting to see how his options drop off drastically. Giving his specials (which are admittedly strong and flexible, almost more than any other character) weaknesses feels like something natural to do.

But it's weird that they all share a common weakness: the opponent can use it for themselves.
Of course, that pursuit is only easy if you look at them in a vacuum.

The only complaint I have about Pac-Man is his grab. A hydrant that only I can launch, fruits that can't be stolen (this is possible through item tossing), and a trampoline that puts other characters in free fall every time they touch it would be crazy overpowered.

The amount of thought put into this character is amazing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3c690s/marths_tier_placement/

Reddit caveat of course but this thread is basically full of that sentiment.

I mean I'm at a point where unless your name is Shaya you really can't tell me about Marth so I just laugh at this stuff. The part where someone said Marth needs buffs to his tilts really got me to crack a smile. This is how you know people just don't pay attention.

And someone literally said he has nothing safe on block

*sigh* And then im like...UGH

 

[Nu~]

@ Kofu
Now I'm curious as to how villager deals with shield, given that his grab is about as bad as ours (more startup, but less endlag with a similar dead zone)

 

[NairWizard]

@ Kofu
Now I'm curious as to how villager deals with shield, given that his grab is about as bad as ours (more startup, but less endlag with a similar dead zone)

Villager has so much shield pressure that he doesn't need to deal with shields.

Like, seriously, good luck shielding against a Villager lol, I would even use shield more readily against Pikachu than Villager

 

[bc1910]

@ Kofu
Now I'm curious as to how villager deals with shield, given that his grab is about as bad as ours (more startup, but less endlag with a similar dead zone)

A few of his moves such as axe deal crazy shield damage, and Lloid/Fair/Bair offer very safe shield pressure, but he struggles against an opponent who has the lead and shields a lot.

 

[Nobie]

I mean I'm at a point where unless your name is Shaya you really can't tell me about Marth so I just laugh at this stuff. The part where someone said Marth needs buffs to his tilts really got me to crack a smile. This is how you know people just don't pay attention.

And someone literally said he has nothing safe on block

*sigh* And then im like...UGH

I think what it might all come down to is that a lot of players hear the term neutral game, base it off of some combination of high-level Melee and their own experiences across one or more games, and assume Neutral is how safely you can ram into an opponent's shield and get away with it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Phantasm is frame 18 (19 after the patch). It's a good option, but not so much in the air (I'd favor falling up-air/drift away n-air depending on opponent's ground/airspeed). It might be great against characters like Ganondorf who can't reach you in time to punish the endlag though.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Falco can't be mid tier or semi-viable. I'm saying that Falco's current design occupies a range of theoretical positions on the spectrum of competitive viability, ranging from low tier (non-viable) to high tier (competitive). Bad mobility and bad disadvantaged state are two very big flaws--they're not just top tier qualities, they are top tier hallmarks. Falco could be bad, or he could be functional, or he could be amazing. I am not sure. Captain Falcon has one of the best neutrals in the game alongside one of the best advantaged states, but his bad disadvantage still keeps him out of the upper echelon of characters in discussion--Falco with not just bad disadvantage but also bad mobility? It's very hard to place him.

And, finally, I think that it's important to gauge whether or not a character will actually impact the meta. Most mid tiers will barely make a splash on the meta outside of one-off events (not to say that Falco is mid tier).

Falco in customs however gets Fast Firebird, which is basically a somewhat nerfed Quick Attack and makes his negative state and mixup options a lot better.

I also argued a while ago that Falco Charge is actually a deceptively good custom on Falco given that particular custom actually can be used for traps and KO confirms when you connect the weak hit. And it's better than the other SideB variants for edgeguarding because it doesn't go as far, meaning it's less risky to use offstage. Situational but my point is reminding people that Falco actually gets quite a lot out of customs.

I personally think in default settings Falco is more of a counterpick character, but I think he does better than average against Sheik ever since his aerial buffs let him properly anti-air and edgeguard her, and his exceptionally strong ground game and even his lasers and reflector can't be ignored in neutral against her. He still has noticeable problems against Falcon and Pikachu though imo who are better at taking advantage of his physics and also don't play footsies as much, which forces him to guess more.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I think Falco's Main Problem is that his Phantasm isn't cancellable like Quick Attack or Lucario's Up B. He lacks of some recovery without his second jump. But he can pursuit the oppopent and try to take them out. So that's really good. Also his blaster needs to be a little bit faster at traveling and ending lag. Just a little bit.

 

[FullMoon]

What do you guys think about Lucas right now?

I myself see him as being probably mid. He has great throws but an awful grab, his range is lacking and his kill power is significantly worse than Ness's. He's not just a worse Ness because he has a lot of good stuff of his own, but I do think he lacks a lot of what makes Ness so good.

 

[hypersonicJD]

^Nope. Lucas is for me top tier. If you're relying on his grabs, you're using him wrong. At the start of the match, down thrown into neutral air and you have good percent. But then after that you can quickly try to fall to the ground, and then use Up Tilt. Then Neutral Air, and do some frame trap tricks with him. You can also do some awesome Neutral Air strings. You do short hop into Neutral Air, if it connects, then you have free follow-ups for days without a grab and you can finish with Forward Air or Back Air spike (if you can). Also he can run away from the opponent, jump, do PK Fire and get launched even farther from your opponent. He also has a Zair attack. It isn't as good as Zero Suit or Samus Zair but it's a good tool for spacing.

When your opponent is trying to come back, you can do Dair. And if you miss, you can jump backwards and do Bair while your opponent is in the stage and you won't get punished at all, and you will make it back to the stage. Lucas has some pretty good tools, some frame traps, one of the best jabs in the game, good combos and his Forward Smash is so much better than Ness's. Also his PSI magnet his a semi-spike if it hits you. After playing with him so much. I even feel like Ness is garbage. (Just my opinion though. I really don't want to sound bias or mean to the Ness mains).

 

[BuTTNutz]

I always thought would be high B tier or low A tier but, yeah I like his placement

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@Ray_Kalm placed 4th as Ganon at EXP today above M2k and Below Ally.

V115 got first as ZSS and Poke got second as Luigi/Donkey Kong.

 

[Wintropy]

What do you guys think about Lucas right now?

I myself see him as being probably mid. He has great throws but an awful grab, his range is lacking and his kill power is significantly worse than Ness's. He's not just a worse Ness because he has a lot of good stuff of his own, but I do think he lacks a lot of what makes Ness so good.

Pretty much that last note encapsulates my feelings. He's not even comparable to Ness, except that he has a few moves with vaguely similar animations and...I guess Final Smash?

I think his kill power is actually, perforce, as strong as if not better than Ness's; the issue is that he has very few reliable setups from which to activate them. U-smash may be among the strongest KO options in the game, yet it's near-useless if he can't actually find an opportune moment to connect the damn thing.

Incidentally, I feel like his trailer led a few of us astray in that regard: it looked like d-throw would actually bury relative to the opponent's percentage as other burial moves do, rather than just mimic the effect for animation purposes. That would almost definitely have opened the door to u-smash setups, which would almost definitely be too jank to remain unpatched. But I digress.

I think Lucas is...interesting. I feel like he has a ton of potential and could be excellent, except his moves are either too situational or have hefty tradeoffs:

- Three potentially fatal throws that are hampered by a terrible grab
- Terrifying KO power that he'll almost never hit with
- His PK Fire doesn't have anything that Ness's does to make it useful
- He trades PKT2's strength for distance (that he doesn't really need due to his rather good tether grab)
- He doesn't have Ness's speed or combo game, he has to pace himself and do things his own way
- PK Freeze is at least a decent quasi-projectile, compared to Ness's ultra-situational mobile explosion

I think he's going to be mid at least, though I could see him going higher. The crux of the matter is that he isn't Ness, and you can't play him anything like Ness. He can't rely on the same things that Ness has to take him there. If he's going to climb the charts (and, as I say, I think he could), I reckon it will be because people figure out how to get those setups in place and respect him as his own character rather than Ness 2.0.

 

[Aquamentii]

Even after all of the Marth buffs I see people saying that Marth is low tier, that he has a bad neutral game, etc. What are people missing or misunderstanding?

A lot of people don't realize(especially with the powerhouse that is Roy out now) how strong Marth can be. He isn't as ranged as he was in Brawl, and, well, we know how people took that with Meta Knight. A lot of aggressive characters took the top spots early(Diddy, Sheik, Falcon, Pika, Fox, etc.) so a character like Marth who's biggest asset is Patience and punishment doesn't fit the current high-tier requirements. His moves aren't that fast, they all have lag, no ken combos. But Marth's kill power is astounding(he kills at about 25% on a broken shield, potentially the earliest in the game besides Ganon/Bowser. Tipper Fsmash alone kills at around 50% and higher, and he now has combos out of Jab into several kill moves) and the prince is tied for fastest walking speed, so you can get around fast while still having all his tools available. I love Marth but a lot of others only see him as if his moves had no tippers.

 

[A_Kae]

A lot of people don't realize(especially with the powerhouse that is Roy out now) how strong Marth can be. He isn't as ranged as he was in Brawl, and, well, we know how people took that with Meta Knight. A lot of aggressive characters took the top spots early(Diddy, Sheik, Falcon, Pika, Fox, etc.) so a character like Marth who's biggest asset is Patience and punishment doesn't fit the current high-tier requirements. His moves aren't that fast, they all have lag, no ken combos. But Marth's kill power is astounding(he kills at about 25% on a broken shield, potentially the earliest in the game besides Ganon/Bowser. Tipper Fsmash alone kills at around 50% and higher, and he now has combos out of Jab into several kill moves) and the prince is tied for fastest walking speed, so you can get around fast while still having all his tools available. I love Marth but a lot of others only see him as if his moves had no tippers.

Marth did not get his range nerfed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I would definitely not rely on Reddit which promotes a hivemind mentality.

 

[Aquamentii]

Marth did not get his range nerfed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought he did. Certainly feels like he did but maybe that's just because Monado Boy is in the game.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think is high mid/bottom of high. his keepaway/walling game is ****ing obnoxious with zair/sh pkf. he does have setups into his grab(advancing zair), so you dont have to get hard reads to grab. in fact, his zair is probably the best in the game. hits lower than most zairs, sets up threatening moves(fsmash and grab mainly, but it can also set up sweetspot fair and ftilt) and it goes through projectiles(idk if this is true for other zairs, but zair straight up eats hadokens and fireballs) so that you practically have to come in close to fight . he simply cant be camped between zair, magnet, and fsmash(it comes out quick enough to react to stuff like fireballs and hadokens in midrange) and his upclose game isnt bad either(a frame 2 jab with huge reach for its looks, ftilt which comes out fast+disjointed, a f3 utilt that antiairs amazingly well, and a nair that leads into ridiculous combos). his main weaknesses are that his mobility isnt the best(its certainly better than /, but its pretty mediocre) , that he struggles landing (he can use tricky movement in the air w/ pkf and magnet, but he cant really challenge anything below him since dair isnt really disjointed enough), and that his grab is simply...bad. it comes out slow, takes forever to end, and you practically need a setup or hard read to get it. of course, if he had a regular grab, he'd easily be high tier or better.

and now, i do believe he can compete with high/top tiers. i feel he beats (fireball is not really good in this matchup. zair eats it, he can hit it with the stick, absorb it, etc. and his mobility is so poor that he's likely only getting in if makes a big mistake.), i also feel he can contend with , , , basically anyone who doesnt have tier mobility or doesnt care about his walling(**** . is also a royal pain in the ass) i do feel that he can beat ///, because his reward off a grab is amazing, but i do feel that they are very annoying matchups. and of course, struggling against the highest tier of characters doesnt help at all. but i feel he's viable with a secondary for his absolute worst matchups( those being /)

 

[bc1910]

Mega Man probably does belong in the upper mid section. I used to think he was a sleeper high tier, but his results don't really reflect that. They are out there, but not as strong as one would think for a high tier. MM seems like yet another character who is very strong in some MUs (the easily zoned) but weak against others (the hard to zone/the ones who can use his projectiles against him) giving him a MU spread that is lopsided and prone to counterpicking. Also his Utilt used to be a pretty special move but now we have an actual Shoryuken in the game which even be used out of shield (though it sacrifices some power for that luxury since the TSRK input doesn't work). If MM can't land powershield Utilt, he's not threatening the kill for a while.

 

[Ffamran]

I think Falco's Main Problem is that his Phantasm isn't cancellable like Quick Attack or Lucario's Up B.

Neither can Fox, Ike, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, or Luigi's Side Specials, but they do fine. Although, I do wish Ike could cancel his Quickdraw like Sonic can with Spin Dash. Captain Falcon being able to cancel his Raptor Boost would be sick, especially considering Wind-Up Raptor Boost pulls him back so far.

He lacks of some recovery without his second jump. But he can pursuit the oppopent and try to take them out. So that's really good.

So does everyone. It's a reason why Boss saves his second jump like it was the key to curing cancer while playing as Luigi.

Also his blaster needs to be a little bit faster at traveling and ending lag. Just a little bit.

Slow projectiles are more annoying, especially if they're not linear. For some reason, they're just difficult to avoid. Maybe because we just don't see them as threatening. They're also distractions like how Gordos can be these awkwardly slow projectiles people do get hit by. Fast ones are good so long as they're not telegraphed like Sheik's Needles, Luigi's Fireballs, and Mega Man's lemons. Samus's Turbo Missiles would be great of they didn't take so long to find a target and then shoot forward. In 1v1 the opponent would have to purposely get hit by it, but in 2v2, 3v3, etc., it's probably more annoying among the chaos.

Personally, I find the laser travel speed fine, but less end lag would be great.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Oh. Alright. Then I think it could be even better making the Blaster a little bit larger.

 

[BSP]

I'm not entirely sure about this, since I'm not sure if there's another character that relies on specials as much as Pac-Man does, at least in default. Possibly a few other projectile specialists/ranged fighters (Duck Hunt, Link, Toon Link, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer) and a couple of others to some degree that helps patch up their games in a few places. (Sheik, ZSS, Wario, Meta Knight). But even then I feel like Pac-Man relies more on his specials to have a cohesive game plan than most of the others I mentioned (Duck Hunt and Toon Link feel like the closest competitors). It might just be my opinion, but I've tried to use Pac-Man a few times without using his specials, for fun, and it's honestly interesting to see how his options drop off drastically. Giving his specials (which are admittedly strong and flexible, almost more than any other character) weaknesses feels like something natural to do.

I agree that his specials need weaknesses, but I think their current strengths/weaknesses in conjunction with his current grab is a bit too much. I could see the first versions of his specials, minus power pellet, necessitating the awful grab, but not the current ones. As of now, his specials aren't even that strong and they still have counter play built in. The grab is overbalanced IMO.

Bonus Fruit has versatility, but it takes charging time and all of the projectiles are easy to catch / clank with. He's also limited to one at a time. If you are familiar with all of their trajectories and how easy they are to cancel, you will always know what's coming. So I don't see Pac-Man hitting with them much outside of amazing mindgames.

Pre patch hydrant was fine. Raising its HP messed him up. The first hydrant wasn't anywhere near broken and the instant Bair launch was very predictable, easily dealt with, and only worked when Pac-Man's bair was fresh. I'm not sure why they felt the need to take it out, but now it's much easier for the opponent to take control over rather than Pac-Man himself unless he already has Fruit in his hand. I'll admit being able to always Bair it for setups is nice, but I could've dealt with having to hit with my Bair at least once before it would be the best aerial for setups.

Going off of that, launched hydrants aren't even that good either. Hydrant isn't hard to clank with. It's only a big deal if Pac-Man has some setup going, but that's on you for letting him get the setup going.

The trampoline nerf messed him up as well. It was long ago, but the first version of the move had every character go higher with each bounce, just like Pac-Man. Now, other characters have a constant bounce height, and I think it's the reason the move is sometimes unsafe at low %. His grab is bad enough, but they felt the need to make the alternative worse? I don't understand.

Aside from that, it also hurt his stage control since it made running into the trampoline on stage less of a big deal. Again, not sure why they changed that so early.

So yeah, with all of this counter play existing I don't see the need for his grab to be awful. I could maybe see it if only Pac-Man's Usmash had been nerfed from the start, but it's too much currently IMO. I don't see how the character is supposed to stand a decent chance at high level vs someone who knows him as well as his players do with his current weakness / strength ratio + grab.

Edit: For the record, Pac-Man has been subtly nerfed with every patch except one (I think) even though he is nowhere close to a high level tournament threat. First Wii U patch nerfed trampoline, Galaxian (11% -> 9%), Usmash, and Hydrant. One of the later ones made running off of a hydrant similar to running off of a ledge, which only makes setups harder. Usmash nerf was called for, others not so much IMO.

 

[Kofu]

@ Kofu
Now I'm curious as to how villager deals with shield, given that his grab is about as bad as ours (more startup, but less endlag with a similar dead zone)

Yeah, Villager has a lot of ranged options that help him not have to worry as much about shields. They're still annoying for someone like me who likes to get up-close and personal; Villager doesn't really have any safe close-up options but if he keeps his distance he's generally fine against shields with FAir/BAir/Lloid since they're all projectiles. And, as was noted, the axe does extra shield damage, 6 extra for each one, which means the default does 20 damage to shields.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I think Falco's Main Problem is that his Phantasm isn't cancellable like Quick Attack or Lucario's Up B. He lacks of some recovery without his second jump. But he can pursuit the oppopent and try to take them out. So that's really good. Also his blaster needs to be a little bit faster at traveling and ending lag. Just a little bit.

Yo falco's recovery is really good especially since phantasm doesn't lead into helpless state although having phantasm being cancel able like in melee/brawl where he can shorten the distance to make his recovery less predictable would be nice

As of the laser's I'd like it to pretty much be lagless like in the golden day's however chances of that happening are pretty slim. Falco lossing his short hop lasers not only made him lose his ability to approach opponents but it also changed his playstlye from a pressure based character to a spacing character. Not that falco does a bad job at it infact falco does a pretty good job at spacing especially with his bair being lagless and hitting hard as a truck. However the thing is that spacing was really never falco's thing.

And thus i end this comment with a quote that I just made up on the spot.

"A Falco without his Lagless Short Hop Lasers is not even a Falco at all but rather a clueless naked bird who lost his dignity long ago "

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Is there any real reason to choose Over /?
Because I've been trying to play the doctor but he ends up infuriating me to the highest degree with slow movement, not as much combo potential as luigi, not to mention pills that don't do anything to help him out, low range, worse frame data overall than both, worse recovery, and all of this for what? More power? That's trippin

 

[TriTails]

NEVER MIND ME! Wrote this post without thinking.

 

[Kofu]

I agree that his specials need weaknesses, but I think their current strengths/weaknesses in conjunction with his current grab is a bit too much. I could see the first versions of his specials, minus power pellet, necessitating the awful grab, but not the current ones. As of now, his specials aren't even that strong and they still have counter play built in. The grab is overbalanced IMO.

Bonus Fruit has versatility, but it takes charging time and all of the projectiles are easy to catch / clank with. He's also limited to one at a time. If you are familiar with all of their trajectories and how easy they are to cancel, you will always know what's coming. So I don't see Pac-Man hitting with them much outside of amazing mindgames.

Pre patch hydrant was fine. Raising its HP messed him up. The first hydrant wasn't anywhere near broken and the instant Bair launch was very predictable, easily dealt with, and only worked when Pac-Man's bair was fresh. I'm not sure why they felt the need to take it out, but now it's much easier for the opponent to take control over rather than Pac-Man himself unless he already has Fruit in his hand. I'll admit being able to always Bair it for setups is nice, but I could've dealt with having to hit with my Bair at least once before it would be the best aerial for setups.

Going off of that, launched hydrants aren't even that good either. Hydrant isn't hard to clank with. It's only a big deal if Pac-Man has some setup going, but that's on you for letting him get the setup going.

The trampoline nerf messed him up as well. It was long ago, but the first version of the move had every character go higher with each bounce, just like Pac-Man. Now, other characters have a constant bounce height, and I think it's the reason the move is sometimes unsafe at low %. His grab is bad enough, but they felt the need to make the alternative worse? I don't understand.

Aside from that, it also hurt his stage control since it made running into the trampoline on stage less of a big deal. Again, not sure why they changed that so early.

So yeah, with all of this counter play existing I don't see the need for his grab to be awful. I could maybe see it if only Pac-Man's Usmash had been nerfed from the start, but it's too much currently IMO. I don't see how the character is supposed to stand a decent chance at high level vs someone who knows him as well as his players do with his current weakness / strength ratio + grab.

I actually wasn't aware of the change to trampoline (and apparently Bonus Fruit? You didn't explain that one) and I'm not a huge Pac-Man player. His traps don't seem overwhelming but at the same time they seem effective enough. I think most characters with a tether grab could argue that their grabs are "overtuned" for their long-ranged options. But honestly Pac-Man's options seem decent enough to me (and his grab has less dead frames than Villager's). But at the same time I won't doubt you if you say that his tools are insufficient against skilled players.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Is there any real reason to choose Over /?
Because I've been trying to play the doctor but he ends up infuriating me to the highest degree with slow movement, not as much combo potential as luigi, not to mention pills that don't do anything to help him out, low range, worse frame data overall than both, worse recovery, and all of this for what? More power? That's trippin

His frame data is pretty much near identical to Mario though.

Also he has a good short hop game, which helps him against Ness in particular.