Character Competitive Impressions

[Kofu]

Actually, their Uspecial missing if it's too close to the ledge is easily worked around by crashing into the stage with it instead of aiming straight for the ledge. Most stages will guide recoveries to the ledge.

It's about impossible to force them to use their Uspecial anyway unless you're an angel yourself or Villager. Even if you do hit them then they get it back and usually can grab the ledge with it before you have time to throw out another attack. The move goes all the way from the bottom blastzone to a smidge above the ledge when aimed straight up, and just about reaches from one side of FD to another if aimed as horizontally as possible.

All I said is that it seems like their biggest weakness (and a lot of the characters I play have strong edgeguarding games, that might be part of it). Looks like I'm probably wrong though. What would you say that their biggest weakness is, incidentally? I don't play them and my experience against them is rather limited.

 

[Makorel]

That's a good question actually. I have several weaknesses I could list: Lack of horizontal air speed. Poor vertical jump height (in the air only). Being floaty helps Pit more than it hurts I would say. Low kill power or lack of a kill confirm (does forward throw count?). You can get out of his rapid jab real easy, and orbitars are just laggy enough to not be useful as a twitch reflector (though the aerial shield is nice when you anticipate that they're gonna jump up to get you). I would say his side B could stand to be a little less laggy but then I think I'm getting into the buffs/nerfs song and dance.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

"unless you extensively play as or against/main the characterat tournament level (I am sorry to all the people this may offend, but for probably 90-95% of those it's right to) you probably have no idea what would be good for said character and the game's health in general. "
All he really lost was an untechable FC and he really misses AC Thunderstomp. Those changes alone won't make Ganon legit. Ganon does need changes (for instance, frame 9 jab coupled with 25 frames of endlag and a really high and narrow hitbox, mind you that's his fastest attack).

Alright, I actually gave some reasons why and how to fix Ganon, but to reiterate, he is a big model with smaller than expected hitboxes that really doesn't have a defensive game and can't really go offensive unless the opponent messes up. Right now, the meta is still fresh, so mistakes are around more than usual. I wait about a year and a half for people to conclude that Ganon is so read dependent that he may be considered the worst. The best way any buffs could help him, is enlarge hitboxes so shorties can't go scot free or simply reduce start up/end lag on ridiculous moves. I mean frame 14 Fair

OMG, this is like the best I've seen regarding my ape. Bair does have more landing lag and is harder to input 2 thanks to higher falling speed, but yeah. Also, his reduced range on his arms and overall weakened placement of hitboxes to his moves do make it harder to play DK. It's important to note that 2 out of his 3 smashes were considered top 3 in power (Brawl dsmash I miss you) and now have now been reduced to average/slightly above average. This means that confirming kills can be harder with out customs.

DK still hits like a truck, and rage makes up for the power nerf imo. And whats funny is that DK matches never drag out, because he kills early and gets combo'd for days. Remember our DK dittos? You finished me in like a minute lol.
But I think almost everyone had hitboxes nerfed (it's really noticeable with Lucas).
One thing that never fails to impress me is his Up tilt. Like it goes from being a combo move up to like 60% and then at some point it just starts KOing. Like, the knockback growth on that move is HUGE (Shulk-esque). It's one of my favorite moves tbh.

 

[shrooby]

Thanks everyone~ =)

*Luigi's bad match ups intensifies*

honestly no imo
I was riding the MU inexperience train quite a bit it seemed like. Meanwhile, I know enough about Luigi to know what I should and should not be doing.
I wouldn't say it's a complete train-wreck of a MU for Dedede like, for example, most of us agree ZSS is, but I think when both players know what they're doing in the MU Luigi has the advantage, definitely.

Congratulations, #NotMango

#_#

Mango beat Mr. ConCon with King Dedede. Geez.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Weeell, Nairo seems to think Dark Pit's matchup against her isn't so bad. Dark Pit's Sspecial basically OHKOs Luma from any decent part of the stage, and so long as it's used in the air all Rosalina can do for a punish is an aerial. Nario seems to think it's worth it, but I'm not so sure myself... I don't think Rosalina is any better at gimping him then many other characters. Between the Sspecial's armor and Uspecial's absurd distance Rosalina requires a pretty solid read to get a gimp properly. Dark Pit himself is great offstage, and Rosalina's Uspecial is easy to gimp for much the same reasons Pittwo's is, but it isn't bolstered by multiple jumps and an Sspecial.

I haven't seen nairo go dark pit vs dabuz. So idk abouthow he really feels about the MU. Dtilt and dair work really well vs side b. Dair is good vs put up B. If you get hit by Luma's dair you're dying at like 60 or 70.

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK still hits like a truck, and rage makes up for the power nerf imo. And whats funny is that DK matches never drag out, because he kills early and gets combo'd for days. Remember our DK dittos? You finished me in like a minute lol.
But I think almost everyone had hitboxes nerfed (it's really noticeable with Lucas).
One thing that never fails to impress me is his Up tilt. Like it goes from being a combo move up to like 60% and then at some point it just starts KOing. Like, the knockback growth on that move is HUGE (Shulk-esque). It's one of my favorite moves tbh.

Yeah, the armpit hitbox is the one that kills. His arms due decent damage and knockback, but it really is the armpit hitbox. It's true that people got hitbox nerfs left and right (I mean, was Kirby, and Lucas really in need for adjustments?), but spacing and hitting the opponents at the right time was so core DK in Brawl, changing that made him a different character. Thankfully, he wasn't nerfed into an oblivion like Marth was ( which I actually think he was nerfed because Lucina is in the cast).

Also, I really don't remember our DK dittos. I know I beat your R.O.B with a reverse Kirby u smash, but not really the DK ditto. Did it have me doing shield break headbutt on BF platforms? Sry for not remembering.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I started playing Charizard today. He's...neat. The quality-of-life changes since Brawl feel nice with the now-actively-good throw game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Yeah, the armpit hitbox is the one that kills. His arms due decent damage and knockback, but it really is the armpit hitbox. It's true that people got hitbox nerfs left and right (I mean, was Kirby, and Lucas really in need for adjustments?), but spacing and hitting the opponents at the right time was so core DK in Brawl, changing that made him a different character. Thankfully, he wasn't nerfed into an oblivion like Marth was ( which I actually think he was nerfed because Lucina is in the cast).

Also, I really don't remember our DK dittos. I know I beat your R.O.B with a reverse Kirby u smash, but not really the DK ditto. Did it have me doing shield break headbutt on BF platforms? Sry for not remembering.

I don't remember much of it I just remember we both switched to DK game 3 and the whole game lasted about 30 seconds XD.
But yeah I find myself using the up tilt as an out of shield option when I'm sure they're in reach. It's sorta like an up smash out of shield. I didn't play much Brawl DK to be honest. I mostly used the Icies. But that infinite that Dedede had on him was disgusting. It's gotta be the worst matchup in all of Smash besides maybe Melee Sheik vs Bowser.

 

[Radical Larry]

I started playing Charizard today. He's...neat. The quality-of-life changes since Brawl feel nice with the now-actively-good throw game.

Well, just some advice: Don't use Flare Blitz unless you can get a confirm off it. Other than that, never use it.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I started playing Charizard today. He's...neat. The quality-of-life changes since Brawl feel nice with the now-actively-good throw game.

That up throw is game-changing. Kills at like 80 on the top battlefield platform (even earlier on dreamland). Charizard got real in the last update.
How did CEO go man?

 

[Nu~]

I started playing Charizard today. He's...neat. The quality-of-life changes since Brawl feel nice with the now-actively-good throw game.

Lol
It was only a matter of time before you returned to your roots

 

[LancerStaff]

All I said is that it seems like their biggest weakness (and a lot of the characters I play have strong edgeguarding games, that might be part of it). Looks like I'm probably wrong though. What would you say that their biggest weakness is, incidentally? I don't play them and my experience against them is rather limited.

Definitely netting KOs. It's not something like Shiek of course, but compared to most characters they're definitely below average. Other then that there's really exploitable on Pit since his projectile is pretty good.

I haven't seen nairo go dark pit vs dabuz. So idk abouthow he really feels about the MU. Dtilt and dair work really well vs side b. Dair is good vs put up B. If you get hit by Luma's dair you're dying at like 60 or 70.

Sspecial beats Dtilt handily because it has SA. Just checked to be sure. You can assume that it'll beat out any attack with or without Luma.

Doesn't matter how quick a Dair will kill when you can't land it offstage. Pit will most certainly come back unless he's in stun the whole way down because his Uspecial is just that absurd, and I don't believe Rosalina or Luma's Dair is that powerful.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You act as though the entire move has super armor. Luma's dair is that strong. Even if Rosalina's first dair doesn't spike she can always dj rising dair again.

 

[LancerStaff]

You act as though the entire move has super armor. Luma's dair is that strong. Even if Rosalina's first dair doesn't spike she can always dj rising dair again.

It does as long as you don't try to hit with the last inch of the dash. Plows right through Rosalina and Luma's jabs, even. Since it's actual super armor and not light armor the only thing that'll beat it is a grab, and that's not happening if he's going for Luma.

Is Rosalina jumps out, I just fall all the way to the bottom and react with a Uspecial when she's going back for the stage. If she waits too long then I Sspecial or Uspecial straight to the ledge. You have to be pretty darned lucky to ever hit a decent Pit with one. With most characters it's not even worth trying, and Rosalina is one of them.

 

[bc1910]

I was being sarcastic but it will nice if his Aerial Up B had super armor. That is all I ask for. He isn't top tier material except for he is fast and hit hard.

I was clearly being sarcastic and responding to your joke. You can't seriously think I thought 20% on all smashes is a good idea?

And yeah, Roy isn't top tier. But he doesn't need any buffs at all.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I just played against the best Wario on Anthers and we talked about the DK vs Wario matchup. We put it slightly in DK's favor for these reasons:
DK can't get edgeguarded offstage. Without any move with downward knockback it doesn't matter how many Bairs or Fairs or Bikes he throws out, DK can always make it back.
Wario doesn't have many answers for DK's tilts. He gets outranged by almost all of them unless he uses his Bike.
DK's damage output flat out beats Wario's.
DK can edgeguard Wario. I've talked about his edgeguarding before, and his massive range on his aerials catch many of Wario's options.

But Wario has some pretty neat stuff that makes the matchup very winnable.
Wario's unparalleled ability to cover ledge options combined with DK's crappy ledge options make for a very happy Wario. Chomp covers everything sans ledge roll which can be punished on reaction.
DK has to respect Chomp as a landing option. Otherwise he gets eaten. If DK had a sword he'd be fine but he doesn't. So this makes juggling very mindgame based (moreso than usual).

Basically, DK wins mostly because of his range and tilts. I really didn't think DK had any good high tier matchups but hey that's one.

 

[Ikes]

Roy is clearly very high tier. He's got basically everything Captain Falcon has (save the knee, and bair walling is basically just fair walling) but with disjoints. Not to mention he also often kills just as early or earlier.

I just played against the best Wario on Anthers and we talked about the DK vs Wario matchup. We put it slightly in DK's favor for these reasons:
DK can't get edgeguarded offstage. Without any move with downward knockback it doesn't matter how many Bairs or Fairs or Bikes he throws out, DK can always make it back.
Wario doesn't have many answers for DK's tilts. He gets outranged by almost all of them unless he uses his Bike.
DK's damage output flat out beats Wario's.
DK can edgeguard Wario. I've talked about his edgeguarding before, and his massive range on his aerials catch many of Wario's options.

But Wario has some pretty neat stuff that makes the matchup very winnable.
Wario's unparalleled ability to cover ledge options combined with DK's crappy ledge options make for a very happy Wario. Chomp covers everything sans ledge roll which can be punished on reaction.
DK has to respect Chomp as a landing option. Otherwise he gets eaten. If DK had a sword he'd be fine but he doesn't. So this makes juggling very mindgame based (moreso than usual).

Basically, DK wins mostly because of his range and tilts. I really didn't think DK had any good high tier matchups but hey that's one.

how about these dudes
what do these MUs look like

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I expect DK to lose to Fox, Ness, Diddy, and Yoshi, but Sonic, Rosa, and Luigi I'm on the fence about. In customs, however, I see DK beating Yoshi and maybe diddy as well (Storm punch would probably kill diddy's recovery like every other edgeguard move does and i dont know if Yoshi has much he can do about the range of some of DK's customs other than egg spam, not to mention Kong Cyclone being the unchallenged king of custom moves)

 

[Zionaze]

If DK had a sword he'd be fine but he doesn't.

That made me shiver. That's the most menacing thing I've heard.

 

[NairWizard]

Shaky just beat ESAM tonight, twice across three sets. GF2 and WF were both 3-1 in Shaky's favor. Customs were on, and Heavy Skull Bash was in play.

So here comes a Pika talk/rant, something I haven't done in a long time (back when the metagame looked much different, and strategies/play were relatively unrefined, not to say that they've been fully refined since then). Nothing earth-shaking in this post, just my general thoughts on Pikachu.

I don't think Pikachu is as meta-defining as some people think he is, at least with customs off. He has the frame data, mobility specs, and edgeguarding tools to be a Top Tier, but his matchup spread is similar to the spreads of most other top tiers that aren't named Sheik--as in, he loses to a few other top tiers, and wins vs. a few other top tiers, while doing well vs. everyone else on down.



^ I think it's safe to say that these 5 have some kind of advantage (also note that they're all top/high tier except for maybe Olimar). The Sheik MU may be even.

may just be his hardest matchup, though I personally haven't had that hard a time against him. You have to be really on point with spacing the sword-like tail moves in order to beat Mario, something that not a lot of Pikachus take advantage of (and something that isn't easy). Most Pikachu players other than ESAM seem to have some difficulty with the MU at least, and Mario's weight + airspeed combination make trades generally go poorly for Pikachu in theory.

Also, Mario's up-b is pretty resistant to gimps so as long as you aren't able to hit him out of his double jump he will eventually come out ahead. Resetting to the ledge against up-smash used to be really solid before Pikachu's shorter ledge-hang animation was changed. Now, Mario has more time to get in position to read your get up from the ledge, so it's not quite as safe as it used to be (you can QA to land somewhere on the stage still though, depending on position).

Overall, kind of a quirky "bad/hardest matchup" since it's labbable and the theoretical tools exist, but in practice probably a loss at this point.

is slightly more tolerable than Mario for many PIkas, but only because PIkachu can play really safe vs. Luigi with d-tilts and Quick Attack. The problem is that you have to get a multitude of hits in against Luigi for every time that he grabs you to break even (and it's even worse since Luigi is heavier), and he has a KO confirm on you. Thankfully, Pikachu can gimp Luigi, which keeps the matchup competitive. The traction on Luigi's shield makes some attacks quite safe at optimal spacing too, like d-tilt.

is in the same boat as Luigi. Weighs more than Pikachu and uses Rage to KO him, but can be gimped. The magnet buffs were pretty big because it's now almost impossible to bait out bad reactions from Ness and capitalize on them with Thunderjolt. Thunder is tricky to use as well since it heals Ness for a lot of percent if he magnets it. About the same difficulty as Luigi. Falling up-airs are really good vs. Pikachu's aerial mobility.

is also about the same matchup dynamic/difficulty as the other two mentioned above; he does well vs. Pikachu onstage and gets gimped offstage.

And Sheik is Sheik. But it's actually probably easier than the other matchups mentioned here. Whoever gets the stock first generally tends to win.

All of these matchups aren't unwinnable for Pikachu; Pikachu has the tools, but he needs to put in more work than the opponent, which is the definition of a losing matchup in my mind. Using the unfavored character in an MU means working harder, and Pika definitely works harder in all of these MUs. They're probably about 55:45 to 60:40 though, if I had to put numbers on them. Mostly it's just about an abuse of high reward/greater weight (same reason that Ganon is kind of hard, but without the part where you just combo him to oblivion).



In theory, these are the Top/High Tiers that Pikachu beats:



You look at that list and you think, dang, those are pretty good! But the advantages listed here aren't as large as they might seem. In fact, these characters mostly have kits that are strong enough in general so as not to lose to Pikachu's particular kit more than 55:45. For instance, Fox. Pikachu has great edgeguards and juggles vs. Fox, but Fox's jabs and insane speed specs allow him to beat Pikachu's options if he's playing on point (QA is easily punished, for instance). ESAM has lost to Larry's Fox twice, though it seemed that at CEO Larry wasn't totally comfortable sticking with Fox against PIka (the first match was even until Larry took the stock and pulled out ahead). For Rosalina, Dabuz vs. ESAM actually looked like it was favoring Dabuz most of the set; ESAM clutched it out. ZSS and Sonic also have good tools vs. Pika. Diddy is arguable.

Falcon is the only one who probably loses pretty convincingly, especially since that up-air nerf hurt his ability to threaten an aerial Pikachu. The others have the tools to win, just like Pikachu in his own bad MUs.

Then you have Yoshi/MK and a few others that are pretty close to dead even. But as you go lower down the list, Pikachu starts winning more solidly. I used to think that matchups such as Greninja were hard, but after getting used to playing Pikachu's spacing game and making the most of his followups I don't think so any more; he seems to win most lower high, mid, and low tier matchups solidly, even against disjoints and especially against zoners once you get used to Quick Attack as an OOS/punish option.

So my general take on Pikachu is: solid, has some winning matchups among the top tiers but nothing dominant outside of Falcon; beats most of the lower-tiered characters pretty solidly, and also has some unfavorable matchups but nothing in which he just gets dominated. He's pretty much straddling the sweetspot of competitive viability right now, being both really good and not obnoxious/overwhelming (which is what you want in a good competitive character)--buffs to some of the matchups where he just used to flat out win before (like Marth, or Falco) are fine by him and probably won't hurt his viability overall. I'm satisfied with playing Pikachu, though the "must win all matchups" part of me encourages me toward a secondary, which is probably a healthy thing for the game.

I do think that with customs on, Pikachu doesn't lose any matchups, but that's another story that we'll probably hear more about during EVO.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Since Fox seems to have moved into the spotlight again recently now would probably be a good time to look at his matchups. My region is whack so I can't take customs into account and base the whole thing on personal experience and results. Some characters are excluded due to a complete lack of matchup information [Ryu and the Mii characters mainly] as well.




-1:
+0:
+1:
+2:


Notes:
- this matchup has potential to become even once people learn how to camp Luigi accordingly. Right now the reward on Luigi's throws is kind of overwhelming but I feel like this is likely to change as the metagame advances.
- this one could be anywhere between -1 and +1. Fox' basic toolkit looks like it beats Rosie's but she has some nasty jab shenanigans that could very well turn the matchup in her favor depending on how reliable/effective they are. I wonder how @ Dabuz feels about this matchup, I'm very conflicted about it and am just settling with 0 for now cuz I really don't know where to put it.
- I think it's in Sheik's avor but results indicate otherwise. We're going to see this matchup played out a looooooot in Japan, Germany and some regions in the USA anyway so time will tell where this one will go.
- these two are probably pretty close to even. Both are challenging matchups in their own way.
- these matchups are quite possibly more in Fox' favor than just by +2.
- Shulk is also likely more than just +2 but that's entirely because of jab resets. It'd be a pretty tough matchup without the jab cancel shenanigans.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You forgot to add Yoshi in that list of lack of MU information.

 

[outfoxd]

I'm not really sure where to put duck hunt at. It seems like he uses his tools to force mistakes rather then to just keep is opponents at bay. i also wonder if anyone uses his throws to combo into his can. Its a nice way for him to net some extra damage.

We're supposed to be able to punish, but it feels like our rewards are disproportionately low. Our smashes dont work half the time and are slow and iffy to begin with, and even when sweetspotted our aerial killing power is suspect. Even when i get someone to play into my hands an upair or bair kill isnt a sure thing.

@DunnoBro is more knowledgeable and eloquent about it than i am.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol Fox vs Ganon at best is +1 for Fox. I think that matchup is about even actually. It's almost purely a guessing game matchup. Fox can laser camp to force approaches which technically wins him neutral all the time, plus his combo game is decent on Ganon if he manages to land a U-tilt, but everything else from there is a risk where Fox doesn't actually want to challenge Ganon directly if he doesn't have to. Notably, he also almost instantly loses if Ganon gets the first stock given he can't really pressure Ganon's recovery or ledge options that well, and while I don't always agree with Ray_Kalm's playstyle, he recently demonstrated in tournament that the same can't really be said for Ganon being behind in this matchup.

 

[Scream]

- I think it's in Sheik's avor but results indicate otherwise. We're going to see this matchup played out a looooooot in Japan, Germany and some regions in the USA anyway so time will tell where this one will go.

I have absolutely no clue how anybody can know anything about the german scene, because i feel it goes almost undocumented.

Either way, at Big Agon Season Frühling 26th June, Semifer did indeed win the whole thing with Fox.
He beat Griffith(Very good french shiek) in Winners Semis and Cyve(who did go mainly shirk but some diddy as well) in Winners Finals and Grand Finals.

So the results definitely favour Fox here.

 

[Smog Frog]

what i do know about germany(and europe in general) is that is somewhat more common over there. maybe there's meta development over there? there's only 1 off the top of my head in the US.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's only one good DDD player in germany that I know of and another one in Spain. There really isn't any "DDD meta" in Germany or all of Europe that's drastically different from everywhere else.

I have absolutely no clue how anybody can know anything about the german scene, because i feel it goes almost undocumented.

Except when you are from Germany/Austria/Swizerland/Luxembourg and are a regular on smashlabs ;P

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I just played against the best Wario on Anthers and we talked about the DK vs Wario matchup. We put it slightly in DK's favor for these reasons:
DK can't get edgeguarded offstage. Without any move with downward knockback it doesn't matter how many Bairs or Fairs or Bikes he throws out, DK can always make it back.
Wario doesn't have many answers for DK's tilts. He gets outranged by almost all of them unless he uses his Bike.
DK's damage output flat out beats Wario's.
DK can edgeguard Wario. I've talked about his edgeguarding before, and his massive range on his aerials catch many of Wario's options.

But Wario has some pretty neat stuff that makes the matchup very winnable.
Wario's unparalleled ability to cover ledge options combined with DK's crappy ledge options make for a very happy Wario. Chomp covers everything sans ledge roll which can be punished on reaction.
DK has to respect Chomp as a landing option. Otherwise he gets eaten. If DK had a sword he'd be fine but he doesn't. So this makes juggling very mindgame based (moreso than usual).

Basically, DK wins mostly because of his range and tilts. I really didn't think DK had any good high tier matchups but hey that's one.

Wario is not nearly as good on WiFi as he is offline because every attack you make puts you in range of people who are just swinging attacks, and Wario can't wait for openings due to input lag. In Brawl, at least you could camp for Waft and airdodge into high-damage things like F-Smash and U-Air, but he doesn't have that luxury here. The WiFi disadvantage is doubly worse against a character with great range on individual neutral pokes, like DK or Ike.

DK totally gets edgeguarded by Wario offstage. It's not like it's a foregone conclusion for DK, but it's very easy for Wario to tack on extra damage...again, outside of WiFi, where it's impossible to edgeguard almost any character reliably.

Wario's airdodge does a lot to help deal with tilts, and DK's large body allows Wario to get his best combos reliably, mostly revolving around U-Air (which is as safe as Greninja N-Air when landing) and N-Air.

DK has trouble safely approaching Wario without seeing retaliation, which makes camping for Waft a relatively safe prospect.

DK outdamaging Wario is arguable because Wario is really good at making things go back to neutral.

Long story short, DK doesn't win the matchup offline.

That up throw is game-changing. Kills at like 80 on the top battlefield platform (even earlier on dreamland). Charizard got real in the last update.
How did CEO go man?

I lost to Master Raven in pools and ANTi in the Top 32 bracket. Close matches, but I got Sheik'd. We don't have any Sheiks in my area, so it was a pretty significant wake-up call. I got a lot of good experience.

I've been told that Abadango plays the matchup very differently, so I guess I should watch his stuff and see what I can adapt to.

Lol
It was only a matter of time before you returned to your roots

He was still my least favorite by a huge margin. Just waiting for Squirtle and Ivysaur DLC. If they're lazy about changing stats around and keep his best stuff, my Squirtle will be super-scary. If they're not, they'll overcompensate Ivysaur and I will be just as well off.

 

[Wintropy]

How's Olimar doing these days? Aside from Dabuz, I feel like he doesn't get much in the way of representation.

I ask because there's a very good Olimar in our scene who's really starting to make waves. Most of it's due to natural talent and practice, of course, though I definitely feel that the lack of common Olimar knowledge contributes to it. Nobody in our scene really knows how to fight him, and aside from the aforementioned Dabuz, high-level resources to study him are scarce. It's a tad scary.

Is it due to his utterly polarising hard counters that he isn't seen more often, or are people just sleeping on his full potential?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I beat Ebony Sniper's Olimar with Wario at CEO last weekend, for all it's worth.

 

[Dabuz]

- this one could be anywhere between -1 and +1. Fox' basic toolkit looks like it beats Rosie's but she has some nasty jab shenanigans that could very well turn the matchup in her favor depending on how reliable/effective they are. I wonder how @ Dabuz feels about this matchup, I'm very conflicted about it and am just settling with 0 for now cuz I really don't know where to put it.

In theory it's even, but in practice, Rosa edgeguards Fox a bit too hard and his fast fall speed makes him easy to lock down on any stage not named battlefield. Then factor in results and it's a pretty clear +1 for Rosa, though I expect it to even out once Fox players get better at their edgeguarding. For reference, my winners set with Larry was 2-0 last hit each and the games were on BF and dreamland which I realize now are Fox's best stages in the MU.

Also, since Pikachu vs. Rosa was brought up, it's potentially Rosa's worst MU (which realistically is just the worse side of a 4-6), as amazing as Esam is, he doesn't even play the MU correctly in neutral and it's still hard just because of Pikachu's speed, size, and ability to kill Luma. (His edgeguarding and juggling game more than makes up for it though) TBH i'm picking up Sheik and Pikachu is one of the primary MUs i'm looking to cover with that secondary.

How's Olimar doing these days? Aside from Dabuz, I feel like he doesn't get much in the way of representation.

I ask because there's a very good Olimar in our scene who's really starting to make waves. Most of it's due to natural talent and practice, of course, though I definitely feel that the lack of common Olimar knowledge contributes to it. Nobody in our scene really knows how to fight him, and aside from the aforementioned Dabuz, high-level resources to study him are scarce. It's a tad scary.

Is it due to his utterly polarising hard counters that he isn't seen more often, or are people just sleeping on his full potential?

Olimar just isn't that good TBH. He has some winning MUs in the top tiers (Rosa, Villager, maybe Yoshi, ect.) and they are mostly those characters who play at a slow pace, but obviously Olimar is the king of fighting at a slow pace. However Olimar gets absolutely destroyed by top tiers who pressure him through raw frame data and taking advantage of pikmin attacks always losing trades due to their item property (Sheik, Fox, Falcon, possibly MK, Sonic and Pikachu) leaving him more or less a counterpick character...but with Diddy being nerfed and the Luigi becoming more manageable across the cast, he doesn't fit any important niche in the current metagame, most rising Olimars tend to make a small wave then fizzle out once players learn the MU because he's hard to beat due to his strong options, but his lack of option variety makes it hard for him to overcome an opponent who knows how to handle him.

 

[Shaya]

Olimar in a nutshell:

"loses to Sheik"
"probably beats every other high/top tier in the game"
"but loses to Sheik, badly".

Like, I'm not joking. Falcon? Pretty bad IMO. Diddy? Crapped on. Fox? I have no idea but it wouldn't be too easy for either. Luigi? on second thought, probably not too good for Oli Mario? Probably a similar situation to Fox. Pikachu? Loses. Rosalina? Likely loses. Sonic? Probably loses. Zero Suit? Loses. Ness? Not sure but probably loses.

I always think of Olimar as this bull **** character that fortunately has a few evenish match ups, rare non-sheik bad match ups and isn't popular.
But he definitely has potency because of some of his good match ups.

(obviously super trumped by clashing opinion with my hero dabuz #_#)

 

[busken]

TBH Olimar is just annoying as **** to me.

 

[KenMeister]

Since Fox seems to have moved into the spotlight again recently now would probably be a good time to look at his matchups. My region is whack so I can't take customs into account and base the whole thing on personal experience and results. Some characters are excluded due to a complete lack of matchup information [Ryu and the Mii characters mainly] as well.




-1:
+0:
+1:
+2:


Notes:
- this matchup has potential to become even once people learn how to camp Luigi accordingly. Right now the reward on Luigi's throws is kind of overwhelming but I feel like this is likely to change as the metagame advances.
- this one could be anywhere between -1 and +1. Fox' basic toolkit looks like it beats Rosie's but she has some nasty jab shenanigans that could very well turn the matchup in her favor depending on how reliable/effective they are. I wonder how @ Dabuz feels about this matchup, I'm very conflicted about it and am just settling with 0 for now cuz I really don't know where to put it.
- I think it's in Sheik's avor but results indicate otherwise. We're going to see this matchup played out a looooooot in Japan, Germany and some regions in the USA anyway so time will tell where this one will go.
- these two are probably pretty close to even. Both are challenging matchups in their own way.
- these matchups are quite possibly more in Fox' favor than just by +2.
- Shulk is also likely more than just +2 but that's entirely because of jab resets. It'd be a pretty tough matchup without the jab cancel shenanigans.

How on earth is it even for Link? Every Link main on here could you it's probably -2. The MU sucks for him because of how much commitment he has to put into everything.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Olimar always confuses me in how to fight him. Do you prioritize killing the pikmin on you? Wait, ****, now he's in advantage while you're goofing around trying to figure out which aerial gets the blue pikmin off your butt. You ignore the pikmin and just punch Olimar? Well, ****, now you have 60% on you. You're in advantage and Olimar has no pikmin? ************ walls you with a tilt and pulls up three in half a second.

And in spite of all this, all match you wind up thinking you're in the lead and then you get a chance to glance down at percent and wonder "When the **** did I hit 120%!?"

 

[oldkingcroz]

Why is he bad/ loses those matchups? Honestly, I've never fought a good Olimar, but doesn't his disjoints, small size, and annoying projectiles that force punishable attacks give him something to fend off the top/ high tiers? His endurance Pikmin and better recovery are pretty good. Was his Pikmin limit, up B, Nolimar tilts, and grab nerf the only real changes from Brawl?

Olimar is kind of an enigma to me... Can we get somebody who actually plays him give us their thoughts on matchups? So Dabuz sees him as a counterpick character cause he loses trades? I'm still a tad confused how that works. What attributes make him a bad character?

 

[FullMoon]

To add to the Olimar discussion, Dabuz himself told me during the friendlies we played online that Olimar in the air is pretty underwhelming. So his weakness is basically being taken off the ground, once he's in the air he becomes a lot less irritating and he doesn't have nearly as much range in the air as he does on the ground.

It's a bit like fighting Little Mac but harder, once Olimar is in the air he's a lot weaker.

I have very little experience with the MU, but Olimar is a character that thrives on making you panic because of the pikmin he keeps throwing on you and adding damage on you I'd say. Once I started focusing less on the Pikmin and just going after Olimar I started doing a lot better at the MU (not against Dabuz though, he just wrecked me left and right).

 

[David Viran]

Why is he bad/ loses those matchups? Honestly, I've never fought a good Olimar, but doesn't his disjoints, small size, and annoying projectiles that force punishable attacks give him something to fend off the top/ high tiers? His endurance Pikmin and better recovery are pretty good. Was his Pikmin limit, up B, Nolimar tilts, and grab nerf the only real changes from Brawl?

Olimar is kind of an enigma to me... Can we get somebody who actually plays him give us their thoughts on matchups?

Pikmin have item priority so they lose to regular attacks unless you have a pikmin on you. If a pikmin is on you olimar's pikmin attacks always win if you challenge them.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah, as I understand, rushdown characters grind Olimar into the dirt. A character that has to stop and arrange his tools is definitely not a character that can afford to dilly-dally.

My impression is that he's a character who requires both players to be knowledgeable of his toolkit - if you don't know how Olimar works, and the Olimar player does, you're at a pretty hefty disadvantage right off the bat.

Olimar always confuses me in how to fight him. Do you prioritize killing the pikmin on you? Wait, ****, now he's in advantage while you're goofing around trying to figure out which aerial gets the blue pikmin off your butt. You ignore the pikmin and just punch Olimar? Well, ****, now you have 60% on you. You're in advantage and Olimar has no pikmin? ************ walls you with a tilt and pulls up three in half a second.

And in spite of all this, all match you wind up thinking you're in the lead and then you get a chance to glance down at percent and wonder "When the **** did I hit 120%!?"

This is exactly why I (and apparently a lot of others in my scene) have difficulty fighting Olimar. He forces you to think laterally and consider multiple angles at a time, which can really throw you off if you're not ready for it.

From fighting this enigmatic Olimalph player, I've learned that the best thing to do is to just rush 'em and don't give them room to breathe.

As a Pit main...this makes me sad.

 

[oldkingcroz]

That item priority is quite odd. Thanks for the info, though.

And I can see how the sheer speed of rush down and mediocre air attack frame data hurt him. He sounds a little like Toon Link in that regard. Just without the raw aerial power and gtfo nair.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Then factor in results and it's a pretty clear +1 for Rosa, though I expect it to even out once Fox players get better at their edgeguarding.

Is that a matchup related remark or do you generally think that Fox has edgeguarding tools that players aren't using well yet?

How on earth is it even for Link? Every Link main on here could you it's probably -2. The MU sucks for him because of how much commitment he has to put into everything.

I dunno, I just generally have a high opinion of Link. With the increased length on his hookshoot he can poke straight into Fox' least comfortable zone with zair and grab. Link's jab is also very good and setsup nice followups against Fox. I'm sure stuff like weak nair -> jab 1 -> jab 2 -> grab -> dthrow -> utilt works and Link can continue to follow up from there. If Fox wins it's not by as much as +2.