Character Competitive Impressions

[Ryu_Ken]

Guess no one knows Anyone know how Pit does against Falco post-patch? Still in Pit's favor?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Pit is a really solid character. The only problems I can think of when it comes to Pit is that
1) his reflector is one of the worst in the game since it lasts for a WHOPPING 64 frames at minimum, which leaves him pretty open to punishes if used incorrectly
2) Same goes for the Arms. They can be punished on hit and on whiff, so look out for that
Other than that, his frame data is really good (especially that frame 4 Nair) and I find him easy to pick up.Just gotta use his specials and off-stage game wisely.

By that do you mean Rosalina does better than the pits at mid-range, or is there more to it?

I don't think the pits have much in the way of challenging Rosalina. Rosalina struggles against rushdown characters pit is like a mid range/ poking kinda character. Rosalina can also be really hard on pits recovery and pit has a hard time when Rosalina's juggling him.

 

[KenMeister]

Guess no one knows Anyone know how Pit does against Falco post-patch? Still in Pit's favor?

He still has disjoints so yeah. Lol

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I don't think the pits have much in the way of challenging Rosalina. Rosalina struggles against rushdown characters pit is like a mid range/ poking kinda character. Rosalina can also be really hard on pits recovery and pit has a hard time when Rosalina's juggling him.

Well, Rosalina outranges everyone with that Luma (especially Pit) and w/o a hitbox on that recovery, I guess Pit is pretty screwed.

He still has disjoints so yeah. Lol

Pft, and everyone was going crazy over Falco's buffs.
Huh. The Pits haven't really suffered much from the patches I guess due to their frame data and playstyle. What does that mean about their tier placement compared to everyone else's...?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I believe luigi isn't going anywhere. He'll stay top when players start to really lock each other in the corner. We as players just need to evolve positional-wise.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I think they are High Mid Tier. Mid tier the least. They are pretty managle, easy to learn and they have a really good power. Forward Air is pretty nice for killing and now both of them have a Spike. Also their Down Thrown combos are pretty good. They are very solid. But not to be Top Tier. So I think it's nice to put them here.

 

[Djent]

For some reason these players also got EVO seeds, despite the fact that they didn't do a full 32:

17 John #s
18 Denti
19 aMSa
20 6WX

Also @ Smooth Criminal you probably know this, but you fight MJG first round.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

It's weird. The Pits are literally the Mario of the Swordies, probably more well-rounded than Mario himself.
My head is literally wrapping around their roundness. I haven't gotten caught on any grooves!
...hope I'm not sounding like a lunatic.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Give Ganon some of his Brawl shenanigans back. He doesn't really need anything else.

Smooth Criminal

"unless you extensively play as or against/main the characterat tournament level (I am sorry to all the people this may offend, but for probably 90-95% of those it's right to) you probably have no idea what would be good for said character and the game's health in general. "
All he really lost was an untechable FC and he really misses AC Thunderstomp. Those changes alone won't make Ganon legit. Ganon does need changes (for instance, frame 9 jab coupled with 25 frames of endlag and a really high and narrow hitbox, mind you that's his fastest attack).

Alright, I actually gave some reasons why and how to fix Ganon, but to reiterate, he is a big model with smaller than expected hitboxes that really doesn't have a defensive game and can't really go offensive unless the opponent messes up. Right now, the meta is still fresh, so mistakes are around more than usual. I wait about a year and a half for people to conclude that Ganon is so read dependent that he may be considered the worst. The best way any buffs could help him, is enlarge hitboxes so shorties can't go scot free or simply reduce start up/end lag on ridiculous moves. I mean frame 14 Fair

*sinister laugh* Get ready for the most biased post on this thread .

DK. Most say he's a garbage character unless customs are on. And... that's actually pretty true. He gets forced to approach and he sucks at approaching. His neutral and disadvantage state are pure ***. And let's not forget that his hurtbox size is just about as big as his proneness to combos. His recovery, while better than it was in Brawl and Melee, is still ***. Ledge mechanics help though. He has almost nothing out of a grab in terms of true combos other than up throw/toss to up air at low-mid percents. So why isn't he the undisputed worst? Results. He gets rep from DK Will and Average Joe, among others. But seriously why is he mid tier? I'll tell you why. His air game, and surprising mobility (10th best air speed or something). Alright let's talk about his famous Bair. It does 13%, comes out on frame 7, has a large, lingering hitbox, is fast enough to do 2 in one short hop, autocancels from a short hop, and true combos into itself. Oh, and it KOs. I'm not kidding, I claim this is singlehandedly the best aerial in the game. If anyone else had it they'd be broken. This move keeps him in the game. And his up air is also really good. It comes out on frame 6 and it KOs and combos into itself. Not quite 1.0 Diddy but it's like Rosalina's without the disjoint and lingering hitbox. His Nair is one of those moves that are really useful for pressuring platforms and it's use offstage is surprisingly low risk and high reward. Not too useful other than that and setting up jab locks if you're lucky. His Fair is garbage. His Dair is trash. The other ones are the only ones that matter.
On the ground, he's got giant punch. A 10 wind punch kills at like 50%. Ridiculous. A fully charged punch kills at around 100 but it has super armor. This thing is disgusting. It's not broken or anything but it turns matches on a dime. Ftilt has disjointed, godly range, dtilt has a 40% trip chance and combos into everything, uptilt has great range and strings into itself and all his aerials (almost never a true combo but it works all the time). Fsmash kills at like 80 but it's punishable af and slow. Up smash is trash with a garbage hitbox, Dsmash is good. Weird hitbox but it's one of his most reliable kill options.
With that said, DK doesn't have any real landing options, which I think is one of his biggest weaknesses. And this gives him a really hard time in some matchups.
Speaking of matchups, I don't have enough tourney experience to give my opinion on all of them, but here are some notable ones:
By far his worst matchup. Worse than Sheik. Worse than Luigi. Worse than Mario. It's one of the few matchups that I consider 35:65. Fox can actually force a mid range game with his blaster, and mid range is where he excels. From here he has grab combos until death percents. Fox beats DK up close in every conceivable way except maybe grab range. It's easy for Fox to get in and he has one of the best advantage states in the game, while DK has one of the worst disadvantage states. And if that wasn't enough, Fox's double jab cheese works until about 150, and at death percents it combos into up smash or down smash. Fox ****s on DK.
Actually a decent matchup. I put it slightly in Marth's favor because DK gets edgeguarded pretty hard and Marth has disjoint. DK has Bair in neutral and advantage which keeps him from getting *****.
It could be worse. A lot of DK's safe moves have low base knockback, which makes getting rid of Luma difficult. One important thing that destroys DK in this matchup: DK's ledge options. For some reason, DK's roll getup has more endlag than any of his smashes, so he has no answers for Rosaluma's jab combo edgeguard. Ledgehop Uair has no disjoint so luma beats that, Luma catches ledge jump, Rosalina gets roll, Luma catches neutral getup... the only thing DK can really do is ledge hop up special, which is dangerous af. Rosalina wins pretty handily.
I only know this matchup because I have a buddy who mains him in my scene. Basically DK can't get in at all.
If I were PacMan I'd love this matchup too. Gorillas can't climb walls.

DK just flat out loses too many high tier matchups for him to be that viable on his own. It's almost always an uphill battle with this guy. Bair can only go so far.
So yeah that's the jist of DK. Thoughts?

OMG, this is like the best I've seen regarding my ape. Bair does have more landing lag and is harder to input 2 thanks to higher falling speed, but yeah. Also, his reduced range on his arms and overall weakened placement of hitboxes to his moves do make it harder to play DK. It's important to note that 2 out of his 3 smashes were considered top 3 in power (Brawl dsmash I miss you) and now have now been reduced to average/slightly above average. This means that confirming kills can be harder with out customs.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, new patch released.

Replays are untouched. Any takers on if datamining leaks DLC again?

 

[A_Kae]

So, new patch released.

Replays are untouched. Any takers on if datamining leaks DLC again?

I doubt that mistake will be made again

Besides, didn't they say that all of the planned DLC characters had been released?

 

[Shaya]

Falco is good/strong, how strong? I don't know.

His rewards have basically skyrocketed. His biggest buffs received were towards his consistency; faster jab transitions, up smash hitbox duration, nair and fair should nearly always combo all hits, and up air is now a disgustingly good aerial (I mean, it was before, it hits BELOW him and it's horizontal reach was disgusting; I used to beat Diddy fairs with this horizontally, lol) but now has the start up needed to be completely dominant in juggling.

Like, I don't know if there's any character in this game who will be doing 40-60% from almost any single hit at low percent like Falco. It's not avoidable at all. His up air frame reductions actually make frame trapping uair into bair OVERLY guaranteed on top of it. As people adjust to how much power Falco's rewards have they'll be opening themselves up for chip damage lasers and dash attacks. Dash attack -> fair is super good, it must have borken disjoints (falco's body flattens) because it beats basically all fast nairs and many down airs.
The consistency on jab rounds off his ground game a lot better than before; characters with 3 frame aerials still can bust out close range jabs but cannot do so well spaced. Jab Jab -> Down tilt/up tilt/jab 1 again/waiting... is all so good now. He definitely has functional pressure with his jab again. I now look at it as feasibly one of the best jabs in the game again (its range on a 2 frame jab is monstrous).

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I doubt that mistake will be made again

Besides, didn't they say that all of the planned DLC characters had been released?

Um, unless they completely disregarded the Smash Ballot, I doubt we've gotten all the characters.

 

[A_Kae]

Um, unless they completely disregarded the Smash Ballot, I doubt we've gotten all the characters.

That's not what I meant. I recall some statement that any further characters aren't going to be part of the dev team's original plan for the game, but rather based off of the ballot or something.

Basically, the devs have no idea what characters are going to be in the game (yet), just that there will be some.

I can't find the source for that, and there might not even be one. I could just be misremembering.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Doesn't even have to be characters though. Could be more stages coming out soon.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

That's not what I meant. I recall some statement that any further characters aren't going to be part of the dev team's original plan for the game, but rather based off of the ballot or something.

Basically, the devs have no idea what characters are going to be in the game (yet), just that there will be some.

I can't find the source for that, and there might not even be one. I could just be misremembering.

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/0...in-the-battle-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-481/
Check the last paragraph and the 3rd note.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Oh yeah, forgot about new stages. Hyrule Castle and Peach's Castle64 were confirmed.
I kinda doubt the new dlc stages will be legal (well, these two), but time will tell.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So...

I've been fiddling around with Duck Hunt more and more.

I keep seeing people camp with him.

And yeah he can...

But I think he's more suited towards a bait and punish playstyle.

People seem afraid to go in with him, but I think that's exactly what you need to do.

His low knockback moves are great for chasing opponents and he can chase them anywhere to due to his insane speed and jumps.

This character is meant to be mobile.

Thoughts?

Did I just figure out what others have months ago or what?

 

[Shaya]

@shrooby our local moderator hero, who's only been going to tournaments for like a month or two just knocked mr.concon out of winner's with Dedede.

*Luigi's bad match ups intensifies*
http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

@shrooby our local moderator hero, who's only been going to tournaments for like a month or two just knocked mr.concon out of winner's with Dedede.

*Luigi's bad match ups intensifies*
http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames

Oh damn that's hype af.

Congrats @shrooby XD

 

[Shaya]

SS kinda gave him the business though.

But now it's RichBrown vs Vinnie~

 

[IsmaR]

Congratulations, #NotMango

 

[Nu~]

The pits do have a weakness to being juggled due to poor horizontal aerial movement and few escape options :/

For all-arounders, they're pretty solid though. However, I wouldn't put them any higher than mid tier. They don't win many matchups (but they don't lose too many either)

 

[Kofu]

The pits do have a weakness to being juggled due to poor horizontal aerial movement and few escape options :/

For all-arounders, they're pretty solid though. However, I wouldn't put them any higher than mid tier. They don't win many matchups (but they don't lose too many either)

I'd put the Pits as high tier. They don't have any dominating tools but the ones they have are strong enough. Honestly their recovery is probably their biggest weakness. Their FThrow is pretty cool too.

 

[Speed Boost]

I'd put the Pits as high tier. They don't have any dominating tools but the ones they have are strong enough. Honestly their recovery is probably their biggest weakness. Their FThrow is pretty cool too.

Yeah, I think they are as good as the player that is playing them. They aren't going to win you any games with "cheese", but they aren't going to loose you any games either.

Nairo proved this point again at CEO, aside from the Zero MU whenever he was in trouble he pulled out Dark Pit and handled his business. Including 2 stock set victories against Sol's Mac in Pools and MVD's Diddy in Top 8.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Mango beat Mr. ConCon with King Dedede. Geez.

 

[Nu~]

I'd put the Pits as high tier. They don't have any dominating tools but the ones they have are strong enough. Honestly their recovery is probably their biggest weakness. Their FThrow is pretty cool too.

I do think that customs will make them better though. Guiding bow is amazing for frame traps and tricks (you can even circle it around you offstage to prevent getting gimped) and quickdash arm is a great zone breaker.

 

[Nabbitnator]

So...

I've been fiddling around with Duck Hunt more and more.

I keep seeing people camp with him.

And yeah he can...

But I think he's more suited towards a bait and punish playstyle.

People seem afraid to go in with him, but I think that's exactly what you need to do.

His low knockback moves are great for chasing opponents and he can chase them anywhere to due to his insane speed and jumps.

This character is meant to be mobile.

Thoughts?

Did I just figure out what others have months ago or what?

I'm not really sure where to put duck hunt at. It seems like he uses his tools to force mistakes rather then to just keep is opponents at bay. i also wonder if anyone uses his throws to combo into his can. Its a nice way for him to net some extra damage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falco is good/strong, how strong? I don't know.

His rewards have basically skyrocketed. His biggest buffs received were towards his consistency; faster jab transitions, up smash hitbox duration, nair and fair should nearly always combo all hits, and up air is now a disgustingly good aerial (I mean, it was before, it hits BELOW him and it's horizontal reach was disgusting; I used to beat Diddy fairs with this horizontally, lol) but now has the start up needed to be completely dominant in juggling.

Like, I don't know if there's any character in this game who will be doing 40-60% from almost any single hit at low percent like Falco. It's not avoidable at all. His up air frame reductions actually make frame trapping uair into bair OVERLY guaranteed on top of it. As people adjust to how much power Falco's rewards have they'll be opening themselves up for chip damage lasers and dash attacks. Dash attack -> fair is super good, it must have borken disjoints (falco's body flattens) because it beats basically all fast nairs and many down airs.
The consistency on jab rounds off his ground game a lot better than before; characters with 3 frame aerials still can bust out close range jabs but cannot do so well spaced. Jab Jab -> Down tilt/up tilt/jab 1 again/waiting... is all so good now. He definitely has functional pressure with his jab again. I now look at it as feasibly one of the best jabs in the game again (its range on a 2 frame jab is monstrous).

I personally think Falco does quite well against Sheik, better than most characters. Only weak area in that matchup is recovery still, but the buffs to aerials let him respond much more easily to her SH aerial pressure. Lasers actually are decent to trade against Needles, Reflector can protect him from Needle land traps, and he's able to actually outbox her.

ZSS used to also be really hard for Falco when he couldn't anti-air her reliably, but again, buffs to aerials help this a lot. He also does much better edgeguarding her thanks to the N-air changes.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

SS kinda gave him the business though.

But now it's RichBrown vs Vinnie~

Who do you think will win?
My chips are on vinnie.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Falco has been buffed really nicely. But, in which Mid tier is he? High Mid? Normal Mid? Or Low Mid? I do think that he's in High Mid tier.

 

[David Viran]

Nairo proved this point again at CEO, aside from the Zero MU whenever he was in trouble he pulled out Dark Pit and handled his business. Including 2 stock set victories against Sol's Mac in Pools and MVD's Diddy in Top 8.

To be fair Nairo wouldn't have two stocked MVD if he pulled out DP the first game. Nairo had adapted and gotten used to MVD's diddy by game 5 while MVD had adapted and gotten used to nairo's zss by game 5 but when he went DP MVD couldn't adapt fast enough because it was the last game. It was a pretty good CP tbh. Not saying nairo couldn't have won if he went DP all the games.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Also @ Smooth Criminal you probably know this, but you fight MJG first round.

I got this.

Also, good **** @shrooby!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Makorel]

The pits do have a weakness to being juggled due to poor horizontal aerial movement and few escape options :/

3 aerial jumps is usually more than enough for me to make it back to the ground. It's sort of like being Meta knight lite in terms of disadvantage state.

I'd put the Pits as high tier. They don't have any dominating tools but the ones they have are strong enough. Honestly their recovery is probably their biggest weakness. Their FThrow is pretty cool too.

I thought Pit had one of the strongest recoveries in the game. Arrows to cover coming back, 3 jumps to come in high, super armor side special to come in at the ledge and the length and quickness of Up B makes it easy to mix up how you come in low, especially if you still have your jumps and even more if you mix up coming in high and low.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think the pits have much in the way of challenging Rosalina. Rosalina struggles against rushdown characters pit is like a mid range/ poking kinda character. Rosalina can also be really hard on pits recovery and pit has a hard time when Rosalina's juggling him.

Weeell, Nairo seems to think Dark Pit's matchup against her isn't so bad. Dark Pit's Sspecial basically OHKOs Luma from any decent part of the stage, and so long as it's used in the air all Rosalina can do for a punish is an aerial. Nario seems to think it's worth it, but I'm not so sure myself... I don't think Rosalina is any better at gimping him then many other characters. Between the Sspecial's armor and Uspecial's absurd distance Rosalina requires a pretty solid read to get a gimp properly. Dark Pit himself is great offstage, and Rosalina's Uspecial is easy to gimp for much the same reasons Pittwo's is, but it isn't bolstered by multiple jumps and an Sspecial.

 

[Makorel]

A few pages back @Iron Kraken said they went toe to toe with @Dabuz and Iron Kraken has Pit as a secondary. I would be interested to hear both their thoughts on the Pit/Rosalina match up.

 

[Kofu]

I thought Pit had one of the strongest recoveries in the game. Arrows to cover coming back, 3 jumps to come in high, super armor side special to come in at the ledge and the length and quickness of Up B makes it easy to mix up how you come in low, especially if you still have your jumps and even more if you mix up coming in high and low.

I'll be honest, I forgot about using Upperdash/Electroshock Arm to recover and was mainly referring to the lack of a hitbox on Up-B and its inability to snap to the ledge when used close to it (and occasional issues with stage contours). Using arrows to protect themselves is also something I haven't seen much of but would be helpful. Their recovery is flexible and they can mix it up quite a bit, but if forced to use their Up-B it's possible to harass them pretty well.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll be honest, I forgot about using Upperdash/Electroshock Arm to recover and was mainly referring to the lack of a hitbox on Up-B and its inability to snap to the ledge when used close to it (and occasional issues with stage contours). Using arrows to protect themselves is also something I haven't seen much of but would be helpful. Their recovery is flexible and they can mix it up quite a bit, but if forced to use their Up-B it's possible to harass them pretty well.

Actually, their Uspecial missing if it's too close to the ledge is easily worked around by crashing into the stage with it instead of aiming straight for the ledge. Most stages will guide recoveries to the ledge.

It's about impossible to force them to use their Uspecial anyway unless you're an angel yourself or Villager. Even if you do hit them then they get it back and usually can grab the ledge with it before you have time to throw out another attack. The move goes all the way from the bottom blastzone to a smidge above the ledge when aimed straight up, and just about reaches from one side of FD to another if aimed as horizontally as possible.

 

[Makorel]

That flexibility goes a long way to keeping Pit from being forced to use his Up B I would say. 'd

Also it's not like having a hitbox is an end all be all. I think the only Up B's with hitboxes I can't trade with to get a spike are Mr. Game & Watch's Default, Kong Cyclone and Dark Fists.

 

[Nu~]

That flexibility goes a long way to keeping Pit from being forced to use his Up B I would say. 'd

Also it's not like having a hitbox is an end all be all. I think the only Up B's with hitboxes I can't trade with to get a spike are Mr. Game & Watch's Default, Kong Cyclone and Dark Fists.

Or Pac's side B after the super armor kicks in